I hope that we get an Avatar in this game.

[Folt]

Just now, Interdimensional Observer said:

Tacticians are important, but they too can be subject to too much worship. See Suikoden 2- Shu never slips up, never. He is Mr. Perfect who even escapes what you think is going to be his death sequence. Only Luca Blight challenges his talents and even that he overcomes with a little help from the other side. Mathieu in Suikoden 1 was much the same, and I've heard S3's strategist might be the same way as well.

Musou does it well. Yes you get things like the Motonari Mori-Jia Xu vs. Dong Zhuo and Yuan Shao battle in WO3 where tacticians own, but then you get other battles where the brutes rule the day.

Definitely, but Fire Emblem has strategy as part of their core, and just about all of them has the player controlling the small army against the huge one so a lot of those battles superficially comes down to your strategy and tactics against the massive numbers of the enemy army.

[Augestein]

9 hours ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Nah, I agree as well, though moreso FE10 Ike.

Though unlike Corrin I will acknowlege that Ike at least did something to earn it, even though I don't like how much worship he gets.

That's the thing. He doesn't. In FE9, everything literally falls into his hands. People appoint him as the leader of a group despite being the least experienced of the group-- like Corrin, but at least with Corrin, it's implied that while they were in the fortress, the siblings gave him some training, which is more than Ike, who hasn't even mastered his style by the time the game starts. Corrin at least is never implied to be incompetent at fighting -- just worse than Xander... Which is something that pretty much everyone is. . Despite the fact that the main reason Greil even had to pass the torch was because Ike doesn't listen (something that the game just ignores completely). Ike can't even run the mercenaries by himself in PoR, and admits this at one point, but the game pretty much acts as though Ike did everything in the end-- which is ridiculous that both of these ideas even exist in the same narrative. Everything that Ike does wrong is completely ignored and has no lasting power for consequences. What's that? He didn't listen to Greil when Rolf and Mist got kidnapped? Well then, Ike you're punished! But not now though and I'll die before I can carry out that punishment. One or two bouts of convenience don't bother me, but that seems to be Ike's story in a nutshell. 

I don't even think we need to address FE10 on Ike. And you even have games like Awakening paying homage to Ike despite the fact that it's not even his game! At least with the Awakening trio is actually was the same person. Having a Ragnell weapon drop is cool for a reference, but it's a bit much to dedicate an entire character to him-- even Lucina doesn't count, because at least she's in a continuity where Marth actually exists. 

 

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Tacticians are important, but they too can be subject to too much worship. See Suikoden 2- Shu never slips up, never. He is Mr. Perfect who even escapes what you think is going to be his death sequence. Only Luca Blight challenges his talents and even that he overcomes with a little help from the other side. Mathieu in Suikoden 1 was much the same, and I've heard S3's strategist might be the same way as well.

Musou does it well. Yes you get things like the Motonari Mori-Jia Xu vs. Dong Zhuo and Yuan Shao battle in WO3 where tacticians own, but then you get other battles where the brutes rule the day.

I can agree with this. However, the issue is that most tacticians aren't the player characters where losing = game over. The difference here is that if your tactics fail, you die and lose, there's no room for a character to be like "you're an idiot" unless the player is given Dawn Brigade style maps where the objective has you "lose" in the story even though you accomplished the objective. 

And that's fine. The issue here is that there's praise of Robin and Corrin, but the extent is about as badly as they praise other lords. That's my issue. So when I hear "Avatar worship," I'm generally left scratching my head, because the only lords that weren't really praised was FE7's cast now that I think about it. And I'll grant you that games like FE4 have people basically wanting to kill Sigurd like no one else's business, but the point here is that pretty much all of your allies constantly praise you. 

[The_antithesis]

Oh gods, no! The salt mine has been opened!

Anyway, I'd say the avatar should go big or go home. Either have there be no/unimportant avatar, and have the protagonist be someone else entirely (ie FE7) OR have the story focus on the avatar. This type of story should be of one rising from a low level position to something great, where everything is done with your skill, and there are no gods to help you apart from the RNG. I think this type of story would work well with an avatar (although it didn't work for fates because Mary Sues SUCK) as the player gets out what they feel they put in. However, this would be hard to pull off, so I'd go with the safe bet and get an FE7 avatar.

[redlight]

I think rather than being a center piece, like in Awakening and Fates, being a observer of the events taking place sounds much more interesting. Not like FE7 tactician, but participating in fights. A chronicler isn't a bad idea. And no children please, just bonus stats from being near each other is good enough.

[Dragonage2ftw]

42 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

I think rather than being a center piece, like in Awakening and Fates, being a observer of the events taking place sounds much more interesting. Not like FE7 tactician, but participating in fights. A chronicler isn't a bad idea. And no children please, just bonus stats from being near each other is good enough.

I disagree.

 

Children are one of the best parts of newer FE games.

 

It's part of why Echoes is gonna suck. They only tweaked it a little. They didn't add in any of the good stuff from newer entries.

[Anacybele]

Those of you saying Ike gets more "worship" than avatars, at least he actually EARNED it. Robin is praised and trusted by everyone after just one battle. Ike went through and won a whole war to earn the respect he got. He wasn't loved much at the beginning, and two of his allies even deserted him. Boyd also says he hated the idea of Ike leading at first. Robin seems to gain people's respect instantly while Ike had to gain a lot of people's trust for them to respect him. Tibarn, Reyson, the Begnion characters, even Ranulf didn't respect him much at first. It took a shorter time to earn Ranulf's, but Ike still had to earn it.

Robin doesn't do NEARLY as much to earn respect and praise as Ike did. Same with Corrin.

Now without PoR, RD Ike does look rather Stuish. But PoR exists and that's why by default, RD Ike is not a true Stu.

I honestly find it annoying that some people here hate Ike's "worship," but give Robin's and Corrin's a pass when the latters' are definitely worse.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Anacybele

[Refa]

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

I honestly find it annoying that some people here hate Ike's "worship," but give Robin's and Corrin's a pass when the latters' are definitely worse.

You can have issues with Ike and still consider Robin and Corrin to be worse.  I don't have any significant issues with his portrayal in PoR (with the caveat that he does tend to be too passive at times, and the plot can progress with him barely doing anything), but in RD it came across as them deifying him, like the developers became fans of the character and put that into the game instead of distancing themselves and thinking "okay, how would people actually react to Ike doing this".  Noone did that shit for Marth in FE3 Book 2, and he did the same goddamn thing that Ike did.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Refa

[Anacybele]

6 minutes ago, Refa said:

You can have issues with Ike and still consider Robin and Corrin to be worse.  I don't have any significant issues with his portrayal in PoR (with the caveat that he does tend to be too passive at times, and the plot can progress with him barely doing anything), but in RD it came across as them deifying him, like the developers became fans of the character and put that into the game instead of distancing themselves and thinking "okay, how would people actually react to this".  Noone did that shit for Marth in FE3 Book 2, and he did the same goddamn thing that Ike did.

Eh, well, I guess so. Maybe my own Ike bias gets to me a little too. Though even before I became such a big fan of him, I admired how he gained people's trust from all over the place. Him getting to be friends with Reyson of all people especially. This is the same guy that hated people so much that he tried to wipe out everyone using a galdr spell at the Serenes Forest altar until Tibarn stopped him and convinced him that it was the wrong way to solve the problem. I just felt like "man, Ike is such an awesome person! He earns respect instead of expecting it right away or anything!" and that's how I started falling in love with him. :P

But with Robin and Corrin, I just didn't get the same vibes or experience. I didn't feel like they really earned any respect or praise, at least the way Ike did. It felt more forced.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Anacybele

[Refa]

Yeah, you'll see no defense of Robin and Corrin from me.  Awful characters, poor self inserts, what were they thinking?

[Falcom]

Hmm. Well to be honest, I'm fine whether or not we get an avatar. If I had to choose one, I'd say don't include an avatar for this game specifically. I think Intelligent Systems should test if the audience is fine with a new entry that doesn't include an avatar (Shadows of Valentia doesn't count due to it being a remake), and go from there. But based off previous games that had an avatar, I don't think IS is that capable of producing a good story involving an avatar.

New Mystery of the Fire Emblem- While Kris was fine at first, it became clear that he/she was going to be completely irrelevant, become completely bland, and overall just dumb. It felt like Kris was such an unnecessary character and I just didn't buy the "Kris is Marth's shadow" bullshit. Unless you meant that Kris is forgettable. That I can understand.

Awakening- I really liked where they were going with Robin. Easily making up for what happen with FE12 in which this game presents the tactician as the lord's best friend, but also not so absent like Kris was (in other words, better direction). It really felt like the first half was awesome. Then came the second half, which is when I thought it's story went downhill. Trying to come up with a conflict involving Robin did not work well with me. And honestly, I gave up at that point. Also, Robin is really bland. But I ain't surprised.

Fates- Let's face it, Corrin was really dumb (even if that was a bold statement). He was so dumb yet he hardly paid the price for his actions (at least until Iago). Also while Corrin isn't that bland, I really hate how they just kept sticking the word, "naive" into a bunch of Birthright's dialogue. To be honest, I think Ghast does a better job at explaining why Corrin is not that great of a character. And it's not like anyone could've avoided it, he's the overall main character. Fates was probably a test to see if anyone wouldn't mind an avatar being the main character. It did not work out that well.

So yeah, if they were to include an avatar, I'd prefer it if he/she:
-Wasn't too absent (from FE12)
-Wasn't too dumb (from FE12/FE14)
-Wasn't too story related (from FE13/FE14)
-Was more of an observer/best friend (from FE13. NOT FE12)

I'm not gonna say the avatar shouldn't be bland. It's really hard to actually create such a character. But those are my thoughts/opinions.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Falcom

[Spoiler Alert]

3 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Robin is praised and trusted by everyone after just one battle.

Where does this happen?  Last I checked the first battle only included Chrom, Lissa, and Frederick.  While the plot point was dropped horribly, Frederick did not trust the Avatar after that.

I can’t say anything about Corrin, but at least Robin was implied in Awakening’s story to have devoted a lot of their time to studying tactics.  It justifies things enough as to why Robin ends up being the "go-to" person for the army’s strategy.  They’re the one carrying the war books.  Also Robin’s support with Virion and Morgan's A rank for example.

[Anacybele]

10 minutes ago, Spoiler Alert said:

Where does this happen?  Last I checked the first battle only included Chrom, Lissa, and Frederick.  While the plot point was dropped horribly, Frederick did not trust the Avatar after that.

Yeah, you're right about Frederick, but I meant when they bring Robin back to their base. Everybody likes him/her instantly other than Frederick. Frederick is the most realistic character in this game, imo, and that's a reason I love him so much, but it's no excuse for how poorly Robin's reception is written.

[Spoiler Alert]

8 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, you're right about Frederick, but I meant when they bring Robin back to their base. Everybody likes him/her instantly other than Frederick. Frederick is the most realistic character in this game, imo, and that's a reason I love him so much, but it's no excuse for how poorly Robin's reception is written.

Ah, I see.  There's more I can say here, but it's off topic.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

26 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, you're right about Frederick, but I meant when they bring Robin back to their base. Everybody likes him/her instantly other than Frederick. Frederick is the most realistic character in this game, imo, and that's a reason I love him so much, but it's no excuse for how poorly Robin's reception is written.

To be fair, the Shepherds consist of belching Vaike, klutzy Sumia, snooty Maribelle, plain jane Stahl, angry Sully, and aloof Miriel. They're probably just happy to meet somebody normal and competent for once. Bonus points for helping save their princess' life, it's quite the audition. I like the distrusting characters too. Takumi, Shinon, Innes. Huh, it's almost an archer thing.

I wouldn't say Robin's unqualified of respect. The scene where he destroys the superior Valmese fleet by blowing up the Plegian fleet speaks for itself. He even has plans go wrong, like saving Emm, revealing that he can't do it all. And unlike Mark, he really is coming up with the big idea strategies. Mark just directs where units should move, but the big decisions like choosing to save young Zephiel or retrieving the Fire Emblem are all made by the lords. Mark is more of a really good friend to the lords over being their tactician. The last thing you do before the credits roll is attend Eliwood's coronation, and his spouse asks you to name their child. Aww. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Gustavos

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Gustavos said:

To be fair, the Shepherds consist of belching Vaike, klutzy Sumia, snooty Maribelle, plain jane Stahl, angry Sully, and aloof Miriel. They're probably just happy to meet somebody normal and competent for once. Bonus points for helping save their princess' life, it's quite the audition. I like the distrusting characters too. Takumi, Shinon, Innes. Huh, it's almost an archer thing.

I wouldn't say Robin's unqualified of respect. The scene where he destroys the superior Valmese fleet by blowing up the Plegian fleet speaks for itself. He even has plans go wrong, like saving Emm, revealing that he can't do it all. And unlike Mark, he really is coming up with the big idea strategies. Mark just directs where units should move, but the big decisions like choosing to save young Zephiel or retrieving the Fire Emblem are all made by the lords. Mark is more of a really good friend to the lords over being their tactician. The last thing you do before the credits roll is attend Eliwood's coronation, and his spouse asks you to name their child. Aww. 

That's all way later though. At that point Robin does deserve some praise, but still not as much as he/she gets, imo.

[Ennui]

5 hours ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

I disagree.

 

Children are one of the best parts of newer FE games.

 

It's part of why Echoes is gonna suck. They only tweaked it a little. They didn't add in any of the good stuff from newer entries.

Yeah you speak for yourself with this one. As someone who got into the Fire Emblem series via Awakening, I can say that forcing children units in games where they have no bearing on the plot whatsoever (Fates) is actually pretty detrimental and can get old fast. I liked it in Awakening, but I don't want every Fire Emblem to now be "Waifu Emblem" where I have to play match maker and think about eugenics. I believe SOV will be a great game despite the lack of kids. What really makes the newer Fire Emblems good (for me at least) is the character interactions via the supports, which are being included in SOV. I wanna get to know the units I'm deploying and how they get along with each other. However, they have no business making babies while a war is going on.

As for an Avatar in the Switch game, I would not mind one, but I prefer my Avatars as blank slates. I don't want an Avatar who has a personality, such a Robin or Corrin. If IS could create an Avatar that is mix between Mark and Kris that would be fine with me. We can choose their starting class and fully customize them (including skin color), but they are not too integral to the plot, acting more a observers.

[Augestein]

5 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Those of you saying Ike gets more "worship" than avatars, at least he actually EARNED it. Robin is praised and trusted by everyone after just one battle. Ike went through and won a whole war to earn the respect he got. He wasn't loved much at the beginning, and two of his allies even deserted him. Boyd also says he hated the idea of Ike leading at first. Robin seems to gain people's respect instantly while Ike had to gain a lot of people's trust for them to respect him. Tibarn, Reyson, the Begnion characters, even Ranulf didn't respect him much at first. It took a shorter time to earn Ranulf's, but Ike still had to earn it.

Robin doesn't do NEARLY as much to earn respect and praise as Ike did. Same with Corrin.

Now without PoR, RD Ike does look rather Stuish. But PoR exists and that's why by default, RD Ike is not a true Stu.

I honestly find it annoying that some people here hate Ike's "worship," but give Robin's and Corrin's a pass when the latters' are definitely worse.

He doesn't earn it anymore than anyone else. Ike is literally trusted with the lives of his mercenary friends for no reason despite the fact that he has nothing that should make him worthy of being the leader. He doesn't even know about the weapon triangle (which is a thing storywise in the story), and he doesn't listen to direct orders from his superiors AND he doesn't know anything about tactics or strategy. Also, unlike everyone else in the story, Ike has never officially finished his training-- which would make him the weakest person story wise outside of Mist and Rolf. There's also the fact that the first day of his mercenary work... We see, he's green through and through. Even worse, is that he has horrid moments like referring to Ranulf as sub-human and then lying in his face about not knowing what a Laguz's proper name was despipte the fact that Soren told him about that literally not too long ago-- which implies a very poor learner or listener or just plain stupid-- all of which are horrible leadership qualities. Heck, Titania even makes fun of it at one point, so it's not like I'm making this up either. The Begnion characters should never even really GAIN his respect considering he was a complete tool to the apostle the first time they met, and he even annoyed Sanaki with his bluntness (no I'm not talking about the infamous yelling scene either). 

Compare that to Corrin who has Rinkah that hates him until you join Hoshido, Takumi pretty much never likes him unless you A rank him, Ryoma eventually becomes incredibly angry with Corrin towards the end (even if he pulls a classic Samurai in the end). Gunter thinks very little of Corrin in Revelations route, and people actually... Dynamically dislike Corrin based on Corrin's decision of siding with Hoshido or not. Like holy crap, now that I think about it, Corrin has a ton of people in game that'd like to see Corrin's head on a pike, and quite a few of them aren't 1 shot bosses either. 

Robin helps stop 3 wars. (S)he does this by gaining Feroxian support, and then having the two work together to stop Plegia. They then 2 years later -- which is plenty of time to gain favor with people, stop a man that has an army so tough that he is simply referred to as "The Conqueror." Like... Even if we're ignoring the fact that Robin is THE tactician of the group, we still have the fact that Robin helps fight in the army. And finally, is willing to sacrifice him/herself to save the world. Like... What? People praise Robin for being a good tactician. That's it. By the time RD rolls around, you'd think that Ike was practically the Messiah. 

Corrin either: completely crushes the opposing side into submission or makes peace between the two nations. How does that not warrant respect? There's also the fact that Corrin starts out as a sibling to a huge portion of the cast. That's going to net him/her some respect from the start. How does that not warrant at least some respect? 

No. Ike is definitely worse, as the game constantly does things like "oh that would have been bad Ike, but we don't have time for bad things to happen to you" sort of deals weren't constant all over PoR. Even Corrin has more setbacks than Ike does. Ike's only set back is that he lost his father. That's it. And even then, with that comes a bunch of stuff he should have never received in the first place.  Heck, the "chaos" from war in RD causes Micaiah to lose her farsight powers just so they can make Micaiah lose to Ike. His stuish powers are so strong that they even cancel out a supposed Mary Sue's powers. And even if the chaos from war does make it hard for Herons to concentrate, it didn't stop Reyson from performing his abilities, and he's more fragile than Micaiah, and has honestly been exposed to less chaos than she would have been. 

Fact of the matter is that all of the lords receive a mountain of praise. So holding this attribute against Corrin and Robin when we've gotten cases that are worse than them is pretty ridiculous. 

12 minutes ago, Ennui said:

Yeah you speak for yourself with this one. As someone who got into the Fire Emblem series via Awakening, I can say that forcing children units in games where they have no bearing on the plot whatsoever (Fates) is actually pretty detrimental and can get old fast. I liked it in Awakening, but I don't want every Fire Emblem to now be "Waifu Emblem" where I have to play match maker and think about eugenics. I believe SOV will be a great game despite the lack of kids. What really makes the newer Fire Emblems good (for me at least) is the character interactions via the supports, which are being included in SOV. I wanna get to know the units I'm deploying and how they get along with each other. However, they have no business making babies while a war is going on.

As for an Avatar in the Switch game, I would not mind one, but I prefer my Avatars as blank slates. I don't want an Avatar who has a personality, such a Robin or Corrin. If IS could create an Avatar that is mix between Mark and Kris that would be fine with me. We can choose their starting class and fully customize them (including skin color), but they are not too integral to the plot, acting more a observers.

The children suck from a story perspective. But they are a pretty fun mechanic to play around with. I don't think it needs to be in every game, but having customizable units like the children is pretty fun. I mean look how many pairing topics there are for them, people aren't even usually asking for storyline advice, but gameplay! That means something to me.

I agree I'd rather have an avatar that's silent and potentially only talks in that old school WRPG style where you get dialogue responses if they talk. 

[Anacybele]

7 minutes ago, Augestein said:

He doesn't earn it anymore than anyone else. Ike is literally trusted with the lives of his mercenary friends for no reason despite the fact that he has nothing that should make him worthy of being the leader. He doesn't even know about the weapon triangle (which is a thing storywise in the story), and he doesn't listen to direct orders from his superiors AND he doesn't know anything about tactics or strategy. Also, unlike everyone else in the story, Ike has never officially finished his training-- which would make him the weakest person story wise outside of Mist and Rolf. There's also the fact that the first day of his mercenary work... We see, he's green through and through. Even worse, is that he has horrid moments like referring to Ranulf as sub-human and then lying in his face about not knowing what a Laguz's proper name was despipte the fact that Soren told him about that literally not too long ago-- which implies a very poor learner or listener or just plain stupid-- all of which are horrible leadership qualities. Heck, Titania even makes fun of it at one point, so it's not like I'm making this up either. The Begnion characters should never even really GAIN his respect considering he was a complete tool to the apostle the first time they met, and he even annoyed Sanaki with his bluntness (no I'm not talking about the infamous yelling scene either). 

Compare that to Corrin who has Rinkah that hates him until you join Hoshido, Takumi pretty much never likes him unless you A rank him, Ryoma eventually becomes incredibly angry with Corrin towards the end (even if he pulls a classic Samurai in the end). Gunter thinks very little of Corrin in Revelations route, and people actually... Dynamically dislike Corrin based on Corrin's decision of siding with Hoshido or not. Like holy crap, now that I think about it, Corrin has a ton of people in game that'd like to see Corrin's head on a pike, and quite a few of them aren't 1 shot bosses either. 

Robin helps stop 3 wars. (S)he does this by gaining Feroxian support, and then having the two work together to stop Plegia. They then 2 years later -- which is plenty of time to gain favor with people, stop a man that has an army so tough that he is simply referred to as "The Conqueror." Like... Even if we're ignoring the fact that Robin is THE tactician of the group, we still have the fact that Robin helps fight in the army. And finally, is willing to sacrifice him/herself to save the world. Like... What? People praise Robin for being a good tactician. That's it. By the time RD rolls around, you'd think that Ike was practically the Messiah. 

Corrin either: completely crushes the opposing side into submission or makes peace between the two nations. How does that not warrant respect? There's also the fact that Corrin starts out as a sibling to a huge portion of the cast. That's going to net him/her some respect from the start. How does that not warrant at least some respect? 

No. Ike is definitely worse, as the game constantly does things like "oh that would have been bad Ike, but we don't have time for bad things to happen to you" sort of deals weren't constant all over PoR. Even Corrin has more setbacks than Ike does. Ike's only set back is that he lost his father. That's it. And even then, with that comes a bunch of stuff he should have never received in the first place.  Heck, the "chaos" from war in RD causes Micaiah to lose her farsight powers just so they can make Micaiah lose to Ike. His stuish powers are so strong that they even cancel out a supposed Mary Sue's powers. And even if the chaos from war does make it hard for Herons to concentrate, it didn't stop Reyson from performing his abilities, and he's more fragile than Micaiah, and has honestly been exposed to less chaos than she would have been. 

Fact of the matter is that all of the lords receive a mountain of praise. So holding this attribute against Corrin and Robin when we've gotten cases that are worse than them is pretty ridiculous.

...Wow. You REALLY don't know what you're talking about. Did you even PLAY PoR? Yes, Ike is prematurely saddled with leadership, but that's part of the story and what starts his growth and development as a leader and how he starts earning that praise and respect from his comrades. And he wasn't put in charge for no reason, wtf are you talking about? He became leader early because his father was killed and his father had been the one to tell him to take care of the company. THAT'S a reason.

And like I said, Ike wasn't praised or worshiped to start out like Robin and Corrin were. He was deserted by two allies and another also hated the idea but stayed because he respected Greil. Many of the mercs stay for that reason alone, out of respect for Greil and as a result, they decide to believe that his decision to leave Ike in charge was a good one.

Robin helped stop 3 wars? Ike helped win two himself, what's the difference here?

Robin and Corrin are loved and praised by all even before they do all those things they mentioned. Ike wasn't. This is the big difference here.

Ike in RD has all the praise he does because of what he did in PoR. Perfectly reasonable. And not even everyone in the game knows his name, some Begnion folks didn't recognize his name or the Greil Mercs.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your arguments at all and you will not change my mind. I believe Robin and Corrin were written far worse and that's that.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Anacybele

[Augestein]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

...Wow. You REALLY don't know what you're talking about. Did you even PLAY PoR? Yes, Ike is prematurely saddled with leadership, but that's part of the story and what starts his growth and development as a leader and how he starts earning that praise and respect from his comrades. And he wasn't put in charge for no reason, wtf are you talking about? He became leader early because his father was killed and his father had been the one to tell him to take care of the company. THAT'S a reason.

And like I said, Ike wasn't praised or worshiped to start out like Robin and Corrin were. He was deserted by two allies and another also hated the idea but stayed because he respected Greil. Many of the mercs stay for that reason alone, out of respect for Greil and as a result, they decide to believe that his decision to leave Ike in charge was a good one.

Robin helped stop 3 wars? Ike helped win two himself, what's the difference here?

Robin and Corrin are loved and praised by all even before they do all those things they mentioned. Ike wasn't. This is the big difference here.

Ike in RD has all the praise he does because of what he did in PoR. Perfectly reasonable. And not even everyone in the game knows his name, some Begnion folks didn't recognize his name or the Greil Mercs.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your arguments at all and you will not change my mind. I believe Robin and Corrin were written far worse and that's that.

And he shouldn't have it in the first place. Like... Robin in his first battle demonstrates more reason to have respect of them than Ike. Robin has tactical skills that are above par of anyone on the Sheperds, control of magic and competence with swords. He's already a trained fighter to some extent. Ike was literally put in charge for no reason. Greil dying has no bearing on the fact that Titania, the second in command that was literally just giving him orders the day before, exists. THAT'S not a reason. If your 1st in command dies, you don't go "hey newbie! You're up." You give it to the second in command. Which would be Titania. Gatrie and Shinon leaving actually makes sense, because I'd bail out too if everyone in my squad went pants on head stupid and did that. However, the game makes it out like THEY are in the wrong for being sane. 

Yes he was. The first battle, everyone dog piles him with compliments assuming no one dies. It never stops. How is Ike not praised constantly? They didn't desert Ike. They left because they didn't want to die.Deciding to stay with Ike because they respected Greil is one thing, putting someone that has no idea WTF they are doing is another thing entirely. 

That Awakening is smart enough to know that a person doesn't win a war alone so it doesn't say stupid stuff like that. 

Ike is literally praised at the start of the game. Mist literally does that when you "beat" Greil despite the fact that he's clearly holding back. In Fates, Xander praises Corrin for not being brain dead and at least decent enough to hold his own in training. Awakening has Chrom impressed by Robin's command of the field, and people are impressed that Robin is a caster and a swordsman... Because there's no one else in the game that does that which is a bit of a spiffy talent. 

Which really isn't reasonable when you consider that... Without Begnion, Daein's war couldn't be won, and Begnion is the sovereign state of Crimea which basically leaves Begnion as the complete ruler of the world as they know it outside of laguz territory. If anything, you'd think they'd hate Elincia for being a figurehead ruler (huh, yeah, part 2 actually makes sense), and Ike for being her lapdog mercenary that helped make such a mess possible. 

Which makes the entire discussion pointless if you're just going to shrug and say "Ike's the best and Corrin and Robin are worse" with no real substance of an argument. Saying I didn't play PoR when I clearly sighted specific examples from the game is pretty disingenuous. 

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Augestein said:

Ike is literally praised at the start of the game.

Which makes the entire discussion pointless if you're just going to shrug and say "Ike's the best and Corrin and Robin are worse" with no real substance of an argument. Saying I didn't play PoR when I clearly sighted specific examples from the game is pretty disingenuous. 

Praised by his little sister which is natural. Not by every single person around him. And lots of younger siblings love their older ones. Nothing wrong with that.

I've been making arguments this whole time, wtf are you talking about, yet again? I really am not understanding where you're getting any of this at all. And frankly, I don't want to continue the discussion anymore because it's rather off topic and pointless because we won't agree.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Anacybele

[NoirCore]

6 hours ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

I disagree.

 

Children are one of the best parts of newer FE games.

 

It's part of why Echoes is gonna suck. They only tweaked it a little. They didn't add in any of the good stuff from newer entries.

Care to elaborate on why children were the "best part" of the new FE games, especially since in Awakening, they were broken to a point of unbalanced overpoweredness, and in Fates, they were practically shoved in so horrendously to the plot with the Deeprealms making everyone dimwit parents that the children may as well not be there at all and nothing different would happen in the plot?

Also, what "good stuff" are you talking about? I don't see how Echoes is "gonna suck", especially since there are actually notable differences, like stamina, supports (oh, that's one of the good stuff, just from an older style!), and the rewind feature. And that's to name a few.

[Augestein]

28 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Praised by his little sister which is natural. Not by every single person around him. And lots of younger siblings love their older ones. Nothing wrong with that.

I've been making arguments this whole time, wtf are you talking about, yet again? I really am not understanding where you're getting any of this at all. And frankly, I don't want to continue the discussion anymore because it's rather off topic and pointless because we won't agree.

Yeah, and Corrin is praised by his siblings primarily and his retainers. That's... Pretty normal. 

And it's not really off-topic because it's about Avatars. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Augestein

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Augestein said:

Yeah, and Corrin is praised by his siblings primarily and his retainers. That's... Pretty normal. 

And it's not really off-topic because it's about Avatars. 

Corrin is praised a lot by the siblings' retainers too before he/she really does anything notable. And the Hoshido siblings save for Takumi praise him/her a lot before he/she does anything of note too.

My point is, I think IS could write avatars a lot better. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of more avatars, but I'd like some that are written better.

[Augestein]

Just now, Anacybele said:

Corrin is praised a lot by the siblings' retainers too before he/she really does anything notable. And the Hoshido siblings save for Takumi praise him/her a lot before he/she does anything of note too.

My point is, I think IS could write avatars a lot better. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of more avatars, but I'd like some that are written better.

By the time any of the other retainers meet, Corrin's already done some stuff. Odin is the only one that has "praise" and that's more so because he's completely insane, and Kaze because Corrin literally saved his life at the beginning of the game. Which is the best reason to say anything good. Saizo certainly doesn't like Corrin, it's even in his supports. 

I'd argue that the main characters themselves could all be written better. All of them are plays on the same type of personality. The only real stand out ones are Ephraim for actually kind of being a warmonger honestly, and that's more of a trait rather than the entirety of his character. The biggest problem with lords is primarily how the world interacts with them. In the case of Ike, there are other things in PoR that stand out more which is why I can forgive the plot a bit more than Fates, but I've always seen the praise of the main characters as a thing in the series. The only time a person really got hi-jacked was Marth in FE12. And that was grating because it took a dump on Marth more than the Kris praise in and of itself. 

[Anacybele]

18 minutes ago, Augestein said:

I'd argue that the main characters themselves could all be written better. All of them are plays on the same type of personality. The only real stand out ones are Ephraim for actually kind of being a warmonger honestly, and that's more of a trait rather than the entirety of his character. The biggest problem with lords is primarily how the world interacts with them. In the case of Ike, there are other things in PoR that stand out more which is why I can forgive the plot a bit more than Fates, but I've always seen the praise of the main characters as a thing in the series. The only time a person really got hi-jacked was Marth in FE12. And that was grating because it took a dump on Marth more than the Kris praise in and of itself. 

Same type of personality? lol no. Ike and Hector are absolutely nothing like, say, Marth, Eliwood, and Roy. Chrom is also nothing like them, though he's still more boring for being yet another blue haired sword prince imo.

Female lords definitely could be written better though. I dislike all of them (save for Celica because I've not played her game) because they end up uninteresting and overshadowed by the males every time.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Anacybele