References, Cameos and Worldbuilding

[Thane]

Hello everyone.

As the newest trailer shows, Shadows of Valentia seems to be expanding upon the plot of Gaiden, which isn't strange considering Gaiden's entire script was very short due to the technical limitations at the time. 

However, technology isn't the only thing that has advanced since 1992; Fire Emblem is now a full-fledged series with a lot of installments spanning more than two decades. Back then, as you know, only one earlier game had been released and this was considered a mere sidestory. So, now that Intelligent Systems have the unique opportunity of revisiting an old game which occurs around the time of Marth's adventures, in the same world as Akaneia and Jugdral (and later Ylisse), what do you hope they do in terms of references, cameos and worldbuilding?

So far we know Catria and Palla are confirmed to be back thanks to the new trailer, and I know I'd like to hear them at least mentioning Marth. In addition to that, I'd appreciate any worldbuilding which ties the continents together so that they don't feel like their own separate worlds. Finally, because I've got such a soft spot for him, I'd like some kind of reference to Walhart, hard though it may be considering he won't be born until around 2000 years later, but hey. I've heard it said that it was suggested Walhart was meant to be what Alm would have become without Celica's influence, which would make for a neat plot point.

Do you have any expectations or wishes regarding this?

Edit: apparently, half of the previous topic I made had been saved and was uploaded together with this one. I hope no one saw that.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Thane

[JDtheBA]

You know, what if they added one of the shadow dragon gaiden characters in this game? If I were to choose one, it'd be athena.

For world building, maybe some references to the war of shadow and how that could effect valentia.

[Lord Tullus]

I hope that the Whitewings reference marth as well, but a callback to Jugdral would be really nice.  Referencing the future would be a bit tricky to pull off, so no expectations there.  Maybe some of the villagers talk about how marth just killed the great earth dragon.   I'm not really too good at this, but It'd be cool to see them squeeze in some lore from the surrounding continents.  Maybe they consider themselves lucky being with the gods in real time, while others look upon the continent of Valentia as a curse, or the other way around?  Just a general feel for the current world would be nice, rather than just fitting in tons of non-sensical references to out of place FE titles like Sacred stones or Radiant Dawn.

Like JD stated, Athena would be nice to have back.  I always liked her atitude in Shadow Dragon, and it was never specified where she came from.  In the original dialogue she says that she would have "been svallowed by the vaves anyvay".  This hints that she was either coming from a different continent or spends lots of her work at sea.  

Edited March 10, 2017 by Lord Tullus

[Extrasolar]

I'm definitely fine with the Whitewings mentioning Marth, Minerva or a few other characters from Archanea (with the occasional nod to the plots of Shadow Dragon), as it just makes sense. But for the most part... I don't really see much crossover with them.

Considering Valentia is very much an island (in the literal sense of the word, and in the story sense), having much more than that would be a little jarring. On the flipside, it is a little strange how Valentia was never mentioned at all in Shadow Dragon or New Mystery, since we see that travel to and from it is a thing that happens, and people like the Whitewings are proof of that.

Even Jugdral was never mentioned by the Archaneans (and iirc in supplementary notes, while the Holy War and such was going on in Jugdral, Archanea was largely undeveloped and being ruled by dragons who didn't have to take human form quite yet). I don't really see it being mentioned by the Valentians, since it has even less to do with Jugdral than Archanea does. (Archanea at least has Naga being involved in Jugdral, and Loptyr originally having been from Archanea before moving to conquer Jugdral, if I'm remembering correctly.) You'd think that an evil god-dragon emperor ruling one of the continents of their world would have gotten more attention, even in legends and ballads.

...Though it would be nice to get an explanation of the two Falchions.
 

15 minutes ago, Lord Tullus said:

Like JD stated, Athena would be nice to have back.  I always liked her atitude in Shadow Dragon, and it was never specified where she came from.  In the original dialogue she says that she would have "been svallowed by the vaves anyvay".  This hints that she was either coming from a different continent or spends lots of her work at sea

I think she comes from somewhere on Archanea - wild northern frontier lands. Gregor of Awakening has an accent like hers, and I think it's implied he comes from the same place that she does.

[Dandy Druid]

Jugdral isn't really mentioned in the Archanea Saga or in Gaiden. It's not even on the map in Awakening. I don't think it'd be referenced, mainly because Jugdral is probably geographically very far from either of these two things. And I'm not sure how you can put in a Jugdralian character in their calendars don't match up, so it's hard to call it. Maybe a Thracia 776 character, or a substitute, because nearly all of the Holy Blood children, their parents, or the 12 Crusaders would be too busy trying to rebuild their countries and estates.

Maybe...

Spoiler

Since Camus washed ashore and lost his memories, maybe they could do the same with Ishtar, the Camus of her game. But then you gotta wonder how so many people can survive traveling through an ocean completely knocked out, wounded, and suffered from Amnesia. It's so confusing IS might do it, then pin it all on Mila or Duma's doing.

 

[RedEyedDrake]

What I'd really like to see is the Whitewings commenting on Valentia's oddities when compared to Archanea, such as the lack of Tomes, Manaketes, wyverns and living dragons (unless some of those actually get added in SoV, of course). Or how all the dragons in the game are the undead Dracozombies.

Also, I'd really like for Zeke to have a remix of "Clash of Two Virtues" as his theme. And maybe let Rudolf have another remix of it as his theme.

I'd also like to see some minor Archanean characters who could have ended up in Valentia in the gap between the War of Shadows and the War of Heroes, if possible. Athena, Barst and Darros are the really obvious ones. Maybe Beck, Dice, Malice, Castor, Caesar, Radd, Samuel, Warren, Rickard and/or Ymir as well. And have Jake appear alongside Anna (unless it is supposed to be a different Anna, of course).

Maybe have the Whitewings comment about ending up fighting in another war so soon after the War of Shadows. And let them have some sort of battlefield conversation with Zeke during the final battle against Judah's loyalists and Duma.

Give Alm's sword its own name, too. And maybe actually make the Zofian Sword and the Rigelian Bow into something meaningful. Also, don't drag the Archanean regalia and what not into this, those were obviously just references to the one game that came before Gaiden.

Also, keep Alm's birthmark just a regular birthmark. Marth got to wield the Falchion without one just fine. As in, without needing some sort of physical mark and the properties that came with it as a crutch. Awakening reducing the Falchion to the level of the Jugdralian Holy Weapons by making it associated with some sort of mark was bad enough. Let Alm's sword keep its dignity.

 

@Druid:

I'd like to know how you would have any of the Jugdralian characters end up more than a thousand years into the future.

Edited March 10, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[Eleanore]

I know one of the character endings mentions leaving for a continent south of Valentia. That obviously can't be Akaneia, so it would be neat if they established it as Jugdral.

Aside from the obvious connection via the Whitewings and Zeke and them hopefully mentioning things from the Marth games, I think other bigger references would be best left as silly DLC. Among that line, I would like them to add Anna to the game. Like, not as a playable unit but let her bring back secret shops and be the DLC mission giver. Maybe have a DLC for going to the future to Valm? Would be better than beach DLC at least.

Plus since Alm and Celica are getting amiibos I wouldn't be surprised if they add something for the other already existing Fire Emblem amiibos like with Fates.

[Extrasolar]

36 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

I'd also like to see some minor Archanean characters who could have ended up in Valentia in the gap between the War of Shadows and the War of Heroes, if possible. Athena, Barst and Darros are the really obvious ones. Maybe Beck, Dice, Malice, Castor, Caesar, Radd, Samuel, Warren, Rickard and/or Ymir as well. And have Jake appear alongside Anna (unless it is supposed to be a different Anna, of course).

Eh, not sure that over-inflating the Gaiden roster with characters from previous games is a good idea. I'm sure they've all got things to do back on Archanea, and I just don't see any reason for them to appear in Valentia (aside from Anna, since they have a nebulous existence and can warp space and time in general). The Whitewings and 'Zeke' were a cute little nod and reference enough, and they didn't feel the need to shove more into the game. This is the story of Valentia, after all.
 

36 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

Give Alm's sword its own name, too. And maybe actually make the Zofian Sword and the Rigelian Bow into something meaningful. Also, don't drag the Archanean regalia and what not into this, those were obviously just references to the one game that came before Gaiden.

Also, keep Alm's birthmark just a regular birthmark. Marth got to wield the Falchion without one just fine, without needing some sort of physical mark and the properties that came with it as a crutch. Awakening reducing the Falchion to the level of the Jugdralian Holy Weapons by making it associated with some sort of mark was bad enough. Let Alm's sword keep its dignity.

I'm all for making Alm's special sword not a Falchion just to make him less of a 'sidestory lord', but if they must keep the Falchion, give us an explanation for why there are two. Marth got to wield it as an (albeit indirect) male descendant of Anri; seems like the Falchion is 'bloodline locked' just like the Jugdral Holy Weapons. I'd let the Birthmark be special if the explanation for how Alm could wield one if it tied into that.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Extrasolar

[RedEyedDrake]

I'm well aware that the Falchion is locked to a bloodline. However, it didn't need any sort of external mark or anything extra of the sort to function for said bloodline. And then it got reduced to such a state in the backstory of Awakening. So once again, let Alm's sword keep its dignity.

Edited March 10, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[Extrasolar]

7 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

I'm well aware that the Falchion is locked to a bloodline. However, it didn't need any sort of external mark or anything extra of the sort to function for said bloodline. And then it got reduced to such a state in the backstory of Awakening. So once again, let Alm's sword keep its dignity.

It not implied that the mark itself is what lets people wield the Falchion, but that it just shows up to mark those descended from Marth. Emmeryn has one, and she can't wield it, after all. Alm is just inexplicable because he has no connection to Anri whatsoever, as it seems.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Jedi]

Let's just keep it simple and not try to over-complicate anything, FE does simple stories much better than intricate ones. 

Worldbuilding is nice, but lets not try to over-reference I know Alm's area isn't far from Marths, but we don't need more than the few things of Marths we got already. (That being the Whitewings and Zeke). If you try to establish everything else at the same time it'll detract from whatever revamp of Gaidens story we'll get. 

IS isn't Falcom so they can't weave a proper narrative from two continents into a single solid storyline without tripping over themselves.

 

[Thane]

5 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Let's just keep it simple and not try to over-complicate anything, FE does simple stories much better than intricate ones. 

Worldbuilding is nice, but lets not try to over-reference I know Alm's area isn't far from Marths, but we don't need more than the few things of Marths we got already. (That being the Whitewings and Zeke). If you try to establish everything else at the same time it'll detract from whatever revamp of Gaidens story we'll get. 

IS isn't Falcom so they can't weave a proper narrative from two continents into a single solid storyline without tripping over themselves.

 

They can still talk about the rest of the world in stuff like supports though, provided they do actually include that. I mean I'm sure the Whitewings have plenty of say, as someone said, about how Valentia differs from Akaneia.

[Azure Sen]

Just now, Thane said:

They can still talk about the rest of the world in stuff like supports though, provided they do actually include that. I mean I'm sure the Whitewings have plenty of say, as someone said, about how Valentia differs from Akaneia.

This is pretty much the extent of additional Akaneia related stuff (or really, any mentions of the rest of the games) I want in Echoes. The game doesn't really need any more connection to Marth's story than what was already in Gaiden, and adding additional characters from Shadow Dragon or New Mystery would just take too much away from what is ultimately supposed to be Alm and Celica's story.