Next grand hero battle: Zephiel

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, MaskedAmpharos said:

Huh. I didn't even think about scenarios where your own unit had Wary Fighter, but that's good to keep in mind. 

Basically, Wary Fighter (and Weaponbreaker) has two separate effects that can be canceled independently.

If -Spd Hector (21 Spd) with Lancebreaker attacks +Spd Effie with Speed +3 (28 Spd):

• Hector is prevented from double attacking because Lancebreaker and Wary Fighter cancel, but Hector is too slow to double attack.
• Effie is prevented from double attacking because both Lancebreaker and Wary Fighter prevent her from double attacking even though Effie would be fast enough to double attack.

If +Spd Effie with Speed +3 (28 Spd) attacks -Spd Hector (21 Spd) with Lancebreaker:

• Effie is prevented from double attacking because both Lancebreaker and Wary Fighter prevent her from double attacking even though Effie would be fast enough to double attack.
• Hector is... um. I don't know. Lancebreaker, Wary Fighter, and Quick Riposte result in 2 skills that force Hector to double attack and 1 skill that prevents Hector from double attacking. Do all three cancel out or do 2 of them cancel out resulting in the remaining skill that forces Hector to double attack cause Hector to double attack?
  • Now I have to test this. Goddammit. I guess it's time to eat an Arthur and suicide my level 13 Hector at the Wary Fighter lance armor in Story 9-2.

[MaskedAmpharos]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Basically, Wary Fighter (and Weaponbreaker) has two separate effects that can be canceled independently.

If -Spd Hector (21 Spd) with Lancebreaker attacks +Spd Effie with Speed +3 (28 Spd):

• Hector is prevented from double attacking because Lancebreaker and Wary Fighter cancel, but Hector is too slow to double attack.
• Effie is prevented from double attacking because both Lancebreaker and Wary Fighter prevent her from double attacking even though Effie would be fast enough to double attack.

If +Spd Effie with Speed +3 (28 Spd) attacks -Spd Hector (21 Spd) with Lancebreaker:

• Effie is prevented from double attacking because both Lancebreaker and Wary Fighter prevent her from double attacking even though Effie would be fast enough to double attack.
• Hector is... um. I don't know. Lancebreaker, Wary Fighter, and Quick Riposte result in 2 skills that force Hector to double attack and 1 skill that prevents Hector from double attacking. Do all three cancel out or do 2 of them cancel out resulting in the remaining skill that forces Hector to double attack cause Hector to double attack?
  • Now I have to test this. Goddammit. I guess it's time to eat an Arthur and suicide my level 13 Hector at the Wary Fighter lance armor in Story 9-2.

In the name of science!

[Zero1k]

23 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

They won't, considering all previous Grand Hero Battles, so you're in the clear.

Well, then i guess it'll be ORKOing Zephiel first then planning around the others/Ursula kills the rest.

Also those calcs were made with a Lv.40 4* Ursula, and Swordbreaker 1 can be used since Zephiel is the only sword user there and he'll be the first victim anyway. So the set may be pretty cheap.

Spoiler

Though I gave her Swordbreaker 2 from Sully because I didn't want it to go to go to waste.

Spoiler

Though I may never unlock it.

Spoiler

I still need Desperation fodder.

 

 

 

[MrSmokestack]

7 minutes ago, Zero1000 said:

Well, then i guess it'll be ORKOing Zephiel first then planning around the others/Ursula kills the rest.

Also those calcs were made with a Lv.40 4* Ursula, and Swordbreaker 1 can be used since Zephiel is the only sword user there and he'll be the first victim anyway. So the set may be pretty cheap.

  Reveal hidden contents

Though I gave her Swordbreaker 2 from Sully because I didn't want it to go to go to waste.

  Reveal hidden contents

Though I may never unlock it.

  Reveal hidden contents

I still need Desperation fodder.

 

 

 

Spoiler

I know your pain

Spoiler

Just one Shanna, please.

Spoiler

Just one.

 

 

Only a few more hours until the GHB drops!

[Lyrai]

On 4/19/2017 at 7:51 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Wary Fighter is kind of out-classed on anyone not named Effie or Zephiel, though.

Hector has Armads, which doesn't play nice with Wary Fighter, and the other armors all have better bulk and weaker offenses and would prefer to attack twice with Quick Riposte instead preventing the opponent from attacking twice.

Indeed. I never think Wary Fighter could ever work on my Gwendolyn, but I do see a team of 3 Gwendolyns on one of the 10th Stratum and they are very scary to deal with since I am unable to OHKO her due to the Wary Fighter as they slowly choke the safe zones each turn. I believe something similar might happen in Zephiel's GHB if we fail to take them down quick enough.

[Ice Dragon]

11 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

In the name of science!

OH MY GOD.

Hector (Armads, Lancebreaker 1) (12 Spd) double attacked on the counterattack when attacked by Lance Armor (Wary Fighter 3) (17 Spd).

Looks like when you have 2 effects that force a double attack and 1 that prevents a double attack, you double attack. I was honestly not expecting this result for whatever reason.

[MaskedAmpharos]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

OH MY GOD.

Hector (Armads, Lancebreaker 1) (12 Spd) double attacked on the counterattack when attacked by Lance Armor (Wary Fighter 3) (17 Spd).

Looks like when you have 2 effects that force a double attack and 1 that prevents a double attack, you double attack. I was honestly not expecting this result for whatever reason.

That...makes logical sense, I suppose.

In any case, thanks for doing the experiment!

[Lyrai]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

OH MY GOD.

Hector (Armads, Lancebreaker 1) (12 Spd) double attacked on the counterattack when attacked by Lance Armor (Wary Fighter 3) (17 Spd).

Looks like when you have 2 effects that force a double attack and 1 that prevents a double attack, you double attack. I was honestly not expecting this result for whatever reason.

It's amazing how IS has already thought over this long before we did, Ninian. :)

[Kaden]

Hmm... Any lancer with 41 attack and a Heavy Lance can 2HKO Zephiel assuming he is naked and alone -- the knights and mages probably have buffs for him and additional debuffs for us.

So, =Atk 5* Abel or +Atk 4* Abel, +Atk Azura, +Atk 5* Catria, =Atk Cordelia, =Atk 4* Donnel, Effie, =Atk Ephraim, =Atk 4* Est, +Atk 5* Gwendolyn, =Atk Hinoka, =Atk Lukas, +Atk 4* Oboro, =Atk 5* or +Atk 4* Peri, and +Atk 5* Shanna all meet this without any buffs as their base attack would be at least 33 and Heavy Lance fulfills the remaining 8 needed.

Does not guarantee any of them will actually live fighting against or even make it to Zephiel. Abel with a Heavy Lance could probably cheese Zephiel since he has Swordbreaker which cancels out sword-wielding Zephiel's Wary Fighter and even with -Spd as a +Atk, -Spd 4* Abel, he's still fast enough to double Zephiel.

Also, of those units, only Ephraim, Est, and Oboro have Heavy Lance as a default weapon. The safest route would probably be Ephraim since he is bulky and would be a 5* regardless, but keep him away from the axe knight and the mages. Also, you'd be sacrificing his Siegmund's +3 Atk to adjacent allies for this and with Siegmund, he'd only be able to do 27 damage on Zephiel. 3HKO where Ephraim assuming =Def, Ephraim will take 14 damage for the first time before taking 18 damage after each battle he's near Zephiel because of Ekesach's -4 Def effect which a vanilla Ephraim would inflict as well because of Seal Defense and Threaten Defense -- why does he have both again? Assuming =HP, Ephraim will be at 13 HP after two rounds with Zephiel. Plan it out right and at least by the third round, Ephraim will come out winning. If you didn't, RIP.

If you have T-Adept 3, the lancer only needs 36 attack with a Heavy Lance which is fairly doable; anyone with at least a base attack of 28. If you only have T-Adept 2 or 1, then 37 attack with a Heavy Lance. T-Adept also lowers the damage Zephiel inflicts making it much safer.

Man, I really should stop procrastinating... Also, I hope I did the calculations right, because if I didn't, then I would be spreading misinformation.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Kaden

[a bear]

Sounds like the game tallies all them doubles and anti-doubles. Lance Armor is at -1 (+1 for Spd, -1 for Wary Fighter, -1 for Lancebreaker) and Hector is at +1 (+1 for Lancebreaker, -1 for Wary Fighter, +1 for Armads).

[Lyrai]

An update of 0.1 MB size just appeared one hour before the Zephiel GHB begins. It must be the Zephiel battle and the banner making its way into the game.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Lyrai

[MaskedAmpharos]

17 minutes ago, Kaden said:

*snip*

Your calculations are correct (or we're both wrong). 

That said, I feel like it'd be a lot easier to take Zephiel out with a blue mage rather than a heavy spear user, personally (but if you wanted to use a Heavy Spear or if that's all you have, then by all means go for it). 

[Thor Odinson]

just put DB2 on my Reinhardt for this. I'm ready.

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, a bear said:

Sounds like the game tallies all them doubles and anti-doubles. Lance Armor is at -1 (+1 for Spd, -1 for Wary Fighter, -1 for Lancebreaker) and Hector is at +1 (+1 for Lancebreaker, -1 for Wary Fighter, +1 for Armads).

Spd calculation is only ever used as a tiebreaker if all skills have canceled each other out. Skills always take priority over Spd calculation.

The lance armor is -2 and will never double attack. Hector is +1 and is guaranteed a double attack. Spd isn't taken into account unless a unit lands at zero.

[MaskedAmpharos]

1 minute ago, Thor Odinson said:

just put DB2 on my Reinhardt for this. I'm ready.

I hope you also have a +Atk buff of some kind ready for him, otherwise it won't be enough to OHKO Zephiel (you need 50 total atk on Reinhardt, so you need to get to 46 before Death Blow 2 somehow). 

[Thor Odinson]

Just now, MaskedAmpharos said:

I hope you also have a +Atk buff of some kind ready for him, otherwise it won't be enough to OHKO Zephiel (you need 50 total atk on Reinhardt, so you need to get to 46 before Death Blow 2 somehow). 

Got Olivia. He's covered.

[bethany81707]

Oh my... just remembered my Robin is -Atk.

Well, both Olivia and Lissa have the Atk aura, and I never expected him to come close to being that powerful anyway.

[MaskedAmpharos]

2 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

Got Olivia. He's covered.

Very nice.

Good luck to you on the GHB :D

[Thor Odinson]

Just now, MaskedAmpharos said:

Very nice.

Good luck to you on the GHB :D

Yeah, you too o7

[Lyrai]

8 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

I hope you also have a +Atk buff of some kind ready for him, otherwise it won't be enough to OHKO Zephiel (you need 50 total atk on Reinhardt, so you need to get to 46 before Death Blow 2 somehow). 

I'll probably gonna bring Gunter along to tip the scales... but we'll see!

[a bear]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Spd calculation is only ever used as a tiebreaker if all skills have canceled each other out. Skills always take priority over Spd calculation.

The lance armor is -2 and will never double attack. Hector is +1 and is guaranteed a double attack. Spd isn't taken into account unless a unit lands at zero.

Eh, sounds like you're overcomplicating it:

D+1 for whichever unit has 5 more Spd (if either)

D-1 for both units for each active Wary Fighter skill

D+1 for either unit with an active Breaker skill, D-1 for the Breakee

D+1 for Attacker if Brash Assault is active

D-1 for Attacker if Windsweep is active (probably)

D+1 for Defender if Quick Riposte is active

If D > 0, attack twice, else attack once (unless Defender is unable to attack)

 

Seems accurate with everything that we're able to test.

[MaskedAmpharos]

So I did some number crunching for fun just to see if it were possible to kill Zephiel in a single hit (not in a single round but with only one hit). 

And the answer is: yes.

Spoiler

 

Zephiel has 78 HP and 20 Res, so you would need a mage with 82 OHKO him (only 70 with Triangle Adept 3). 

• A 5* Ursula has 29 base atk at level 40, which is 42 with Blárblade+
• With her innate Death Blow 3, she gains another +6 for a total of 48
• If she has someone providing +6 Atk/Spd from Hone Cavalry and +6 Def/Res from Fortify Cavalry, she gains +30 atk for a total of 78
• +4 from Goad Cavalry would get her up to exactly 82
• Zephiel dies

tldr - Horse Emblem is broken.

Spoiler

Another example would be Blárblade Linde.

• +Atk Linde has base 38 atk, which is 51 with Blárblade+
• Life and Death 3 would bring this up to 56
• If she's given +4 to all stats, she would get +24 atk for a total of 80
• A simple Spur Atk would bring her up to the OHKO threshold
• Zephiel dies

tldr - jk it's actually Blárblade that's broken

Spoiler

Obviously, the requirements would be even easier if Triangle Adept was the A-skill, but I wanted to see if it were possible with what are pretty standard inheritance skills for these mages instead of putting on something like TA, which they would never use outside of this GHB in all likelihood.

 

 

tldr - blade tomes are broken

[Kaden]

26 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

Your calculations are correct (or we're both wrong). 

That said, I feel like it'd be a lot easier to take Zephiel out with a blue mage rather than a heavy spear user, personally (but if you wanted to use a Heavy Spear or if that's all you have, then by all means go for it). 

I only have a lv. 36, -Atk, +Def, 4* M!Robin and a lv. 40, 4* Ursula. Also, Odin, but yeah... Otherwise, a lv. 40, 4* neutral F!Corrin and a lv. 37 -Atk, +HP Ninian for ghetto blue mages.

Aside from Oboro, I have a +Res, -Def Ephraim and quest Est -- Qu'Est? -- as alternative Heavy Lance units. Both are under-leveled and I doubt they would do well against Zephiel because of their (gimped) defense. Ephraim still being slow and still having meh resistance will probably get wrecked by the mages.

Oboro, please be the bestest girl you can be for this map. ;_;

My other choice is doing a wacky LordFrigid strategy! Somehow, Tiki is going to cheese this map. :P

Edited April 20, 2017 by Kaden

[MaskedAmpharos]

Just now, Kaden said:

I only have a lv. 36, -Atk, +Def, 4* M!Robin and a lv. 40, 4* Ursula. Also, Odin, but yeah... Otherwise, a lv. 40, 4* neutral F!Corrin and a -Atk, +HP Ninian for ghetto blue mages.

Aside from Oboro, I have a +Res, -Def Ephraim and quest Est -- Qu'Est? -- as alternative Heavy Lance units. Both are under-leveled and I doubt they would do well against Zephiel because of their (gimped) defense. Ephraim still being slow and still having meh resistance will probably get wrecked by the mages.

Oboro, please be the bestest girl you can be for this map. ;_;

Good luck, friend!

If either Oboro or Ephraim is given Swordbreaker or Quick Riposte (both of which are common B-skills for them), they may be able to ORKO Zephiel (though that would leave them in range of the axe armor...)

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

6 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

So I did some number crunching for fun just to see if it were possible to kill Zephiel in a single hit (not in a single round but with only one hit). 

And the answer is: yes.

  Hide contents

 

Zephiel has 78 HP and 20 Res, so you would need a mage with 82 OHKO him (only 70 with Triangle Adept 3). 

• A 5* Ursula has 29 base atk at level 40, which is 42 with Blárblade+
• With her innate Death Blow 3, she gains another +6 for a total of 48
• If she has someone providing +6 Atk/Spd from Hone Cavalry and +6 Def/Res from Fortify Cavalry, she gains +30 atk for a total of 78
• +4 from Goad Cavalry would get her up to exactly 82
• Zephiel dies

tldr - Horse Emblem is broken.

  Hide contents

Another example would be Blárblade Linde.

• +Atk Linde has base 38 atk, which is 51 with Blárblade+
• Life and Death 3 would bring this up to 56
• If she's given +4 to all stats, she would get +24 atk for a total of 80
• A simple Spur Atk would bring her up to the OHKO threshold
• Zephiel dies

tldr - jk it's actually Blárblade that's broken

  Hide contents

Obviously, the requirements would be even easier if Triangle Adept was the A-skill, but I wanted to see if it were possible with what are pretty standard inheritance skills for these mages instead of putting on something like TA, which they would never use outside of this GHB in all likelihood.

 

 

tldr - blade tomes are broken

Can't you also use my bro Triangle Adept for the damage(20% of 42 is 8) or i'm missing something with Blarblade mechanic here?

 

 

.....actually i was looking to ask about this as well so, does Blade damage Flat or does it stack with Triang Adept?

 

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by JSND