"Waifu Emblem" Features.

[Pokechu]

I gotta agree with XRay. The children didn't interfere with the plot, and their implementation was certainly wonky to say the least, but I spent so many hours reading supports, deciding who I want with who, taking hair colors into account, etc. I wouldn't be too upset to see them go, but it would certainly be disappointing because nothing they could add would replace all of the time I spent on the children and marriage. Children don't take away from the strategy Fire Emblem offers, but rather they add to it, especially considering how useful they are in Awakening's Apotheosis. Also how in Conquest, they unlock paralogues which can really help you level your units, and they get you a superpowered character who you can use. That's really helpful.

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Paralogues are optional and I did skip them. But it takes development time to make those paralogues, and I believe it would've been better spent on making the story and non-optional characters better quality.

I'd honestly prefer Paralogues over a better quality story because with children comes hours you can put into the game, as I said at the start of the post. A better quality story will take the same amount of time to complete as a poor quality one. But that's just me. I, along with XRay, enjoyed child units' customization, with their hair color and stats. It'd be cool to see what they'd do if there were no children (I haven't gotten Echoes because I have a Switch and don't want to downgrade lol, considering on getting it later), but I really would miss the hours you can sink in them.

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

Sorry, but you really underestimate how important marketing is. You have to advertise your product as much as you can. If people don't know about it, they won't buy it. Awakening and Fates had marketing through trailers and such, then word of mouth. Worth of mouth is secondary, because again, people first have to know about the product in order to talk about it.

And I already told you the fanservice is proving to be bad. Camilla is a character that people either love or downright hate because of fanservice, there's no in between. Fates's story and children were not popular at all. Story quality was likely sacrificed for all that fanservice.

Paralogues are optional and I did skip them. But it takes development time to make those paralogues, and I believe it would've been better spent on making the story and non-optional characters better quality.

I know how important marketing is, but it still does not change the fact that Echoes got lower sales figures despite having as much marketing as Awakening in my opinion. Since we are fans of Fire Emblem, we are not the best judges of how effective Fire Emblem marketing is, but I was pretty hyped seeing trailers for Echoes, so it cannot be that much worse than Awakening's marketing.

Just saying fan service is bad does not really prove anything. The vocal minority can spew all the hate they want at Camilla, but if the sales figures and Fire Emblem Heroes' Voting Gauntlet means anything, a lot more fans love her than hate her. Lucina's and Camilla's popularity contest reflect the true magnitude of the impact of fan service has on a fans.

I will agree with you that those paralogues take resources away from other aspects of the game, and that clearly shows with a crappy world map, inventory icons looking all the same, and the overall unpolished feel.

[Anacybele]

3 minutes ago, Pokechu said:

I'd honestly prefer Paralogues over a better quality story because with children comes hours you can put into the game, as I said at the start of the post.

You'd rather sit through a shit story just so you can make characters bang and produce babies? You're strange. I'm sorry, but I just cannot understand why anyone would have this mindset.

And see, XRay, if they spent more time making those things better, wouldn't you still be happy even though they didn't force children and things in where they don't belong?

Edited July 16, 2017 by Anacybele

[The DanMan]

There needs to be an "ambivalent/don't care" option.

As for what I expect... Avatars and S-supports stay, children leave.

[Pokechu]

Just now, Anacybele said:

You'd rather sit through a shit story just so you can make characters bang and produce babies? You're strange. I'm sorry, but I just cannot understand why anyone would have this mindset.

Uhh, sorry people are different? I know others share my mindset. But children can take up a lot of time if you want them to. I do like grinding though, so that may be part of the reason; when I grind, I can grind for experience and supports. I just really like seeing characters interact with each other. Not necessarily bang and make babies. The children are a small bonus, yes, as they open up the option for more supports. Seeing characters interact with each other is just one of my favorite things and one of the reasons why I can't really get into the older Fire Emblems as much as I want to. There doesn't have to be children, but I think children is one of the reasons why I had 180 hours in Awakening, yet I never completed one of my files. I had a speedrun I finished and then a mainfile that I never completed, I had a few hours on the former and a LOT of hours on the latter.

I don't know, call me strange but story doesn't really have an impact on gameplay, and Conquest is a shining example of that.

[Anacybele]

Just now, Pokechu said:

Uhh, sorry people are different? I know others share my mindset. But children can take up a lot of time if you want them to. I do like grinding though, so that may be part of the reason; when I grind, I can grind for experience and supports. I just really like seeing characters interact with each other. Not necessarily bang and make babies. The children are a small bonus, yes, as they open up the option for more supports. Seeing characters interact with each other is just one of my favorite things and one of the reasons why I can't really get into the older Fire Emblems as much as I want to. There doesn't have to be children, but I think children is one of the reasons why I had 180 hours in Awakening, yet I never completed one of my files. I had a speedrun I finished and then a mainfile that I never completed, I had a few hours on the former and a LOT of hours on the latter.

I don't know, call me strange but story doesn't really have an impact on gameplay, and Conquest is a shining example of that.

Seeing more characters interact is a valid desire, but when quality is sacrificed, it's not worth it. I want to read good and well done conversations and characterization when I see characters interact, don't you? When children are implemented as poorly as they were in Fates, it reflects badly on the characters. Would you seriously throw your baby into an unfamiliar realm like that? Or even have a baby in the middle of the war? How did nine months go by without anything huge happening outside of the castle since, you know, war is still going on? When it just makes zero sense like that, it becomes stupid and makes me not want to bother.

And people complain a LOT about Conquest's story and wish it was better to go with the gameplay.

[XRay]

9 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

You know, the bolded part sounds like something that'd come straight out of the mouth of a mad scientist dictator in a dystopian sci-fi novel... just saying.

I know what eugenics is; why do you think I was referring to it when talking about 2nd Gen units?  I have my reasons for my aversion to eugenics, some of them quite personal and of which I'd rather not divulge.  I do support using gene editing to get rid of things like diseases or complications preventing an infant from making it past live birth, and I know the prospect of forcing selective breeding among humans has withered away and died for the most part (like the bastard idea it was), but there are still some things about eugenics that could use work...

Though this isn't the place to discuss such things.  All you need to know is that the history of eugenics - especially in the hands of zealous "activists" and lawmakers looking to keep certain individuals from procreating through mandate - makes the idea of selective breeding in games an uneasy prospect to me, and no amount of justification or explanations will sway my opinion in that regard.

That is understandable. Instead of passing down stats, passing down personal skills might be more acceptable. Stat customization could be done another way like maybe IV and EV training in Pokémon. As long as customization is in the game, I do not mind how it is done.

9 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

And see, XRay, if they spent more time making those things better, wouldn't you still be happy even though they didn't force children and things in where they don't belong?

I would not mind them making the game more polished and selling children as DLC so they have more money to write better children, but people might be outraged by that. As long as I get my children, I do not care how it is done, but other fans might.

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Seeing more characters interact is a valid desire, but when quality is sacrificed, it's not worth it. I want to read good and well done conversations and characterization when I see characters interact, don't you?

People have different priorities and tastes. I do not mind throwing money at Intelligent System for more DLC, but many players hate idea of companies releasing an "incomplete" game.

[Pokechu]

Just now, Anacybele said:

Seeing more characters interact is a valid desire, but when quality is sacrificed, it's not worth it. I want to read good and well done conversations and characterization when I see characters interact, don't you? When children are implemented as poorly as they were in Fates, it reflects badly on the characters. Would you seriously throw your baby into an unfamiliar realm like that? Or even have a baby in the middle of the war? How did nine months go by without anything huge happening outside of the castle since, you know, war is still going on? When it just makes zero sense like that, it becomes stupid and makes me not want to bother.

And people complain a LOT about Conquest's story and wish it was better to go with the gameplay.

Yeah, like if it was just me I would choose Paralogues but I can perfectly see why a majority would choose having a high quality cast and story. I can agree with you on Fates' kids being implemented really poorly and there not being very many good supports. But I really did enjoy having there be some kind of after-game activity for Fire Emblem, like in Fates children gave me something to do because I saved them for after I beat the last chapters. In a FE game without kids, there wouldn't be anything to really work for or achieve after the final chapter, you know?

[shadowofchaos]

Avatar system: Leaning no. But not gonna bellyache.

Breeding/Children: Leaning no. But again won't bellyache unless it's something REALLY stupid like deeprealms.

Romance supports: I love this part. I mean FE GBA supports is also what got me invested into characters.

 

Belinda's take:

The avatar system is contradictory because it attempts to paint "main character" and "blank slate". Other games do it well because of the silent protagonist.

Rey: And I generally enjoyed the mute MU option in Japanese Awakening.

 

The thing with Awakening is while the writing isn't the best in the world, it had its charms with said custom character system. While If/Fates did... well... premise was attractive, but execution was horrible. Especially the children.

Most of the reasons why people hate the avatar and children system is that it takes away from the plot. The focus gets taken away from the main campaign... despite their gameplay mechanic leading to a lot of replay value... those invested in the worldbuilding pretty much see them (justifiably) a reason for less quality in other aspects of the game. I mean while Echoes was generally more well received with developing characters with their basic plot... it's a remake.

 

22 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

You'd rather sit through a shit story just so you can make characters bang and produce babies? You're strange. I'm sorry, but I just cannot understand why anyone would have this mindset.

And see, XRay, if they spent more time making those things better, wouldn't you still be happy even though they didn't force children and things in where they don't belong?

People value different things, Ana.

You should know this by now in an FE forum of all places.

Some people love Conquest to death SOLELY BECAUSE of gameplay.

 

Kingdom Hearts has one of the most stupid complicated things to ever exist in video game history. People love it *AND* tear it apart at the same time.

Edited July 16, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Koumal8]

To Xray I just want to ask a question: would you prefer a new FE installment with good plot and characterization or one with none of that but lots of fanservice selling much more than the former? (and I'm not hinting at any FE game in particular, I skipped Echoes and Fates is there with Genealogy in my top 5 FEs) I mean, I know I can't expect anyone to agree with me on the fact that a good dead game series is better than a bad but alive one but still... reading that "fanservice is good for the series because it prevents them it from dying" leaves me... painfully puzzled.

On the actual topic, I love customizable avatars and I would like more customization ( possibility to choose the starting class, more appearance options), IS just has to learn how to handle them, otherwise I'm not against customizable characters with predetermined personalities and stuff (as long as they're not Corrin). Children once again I love them gameplaywise but only if their presence makes sense and a timeskip happens (and I will never understand how people can put on the same level FE13 and FE4's children, I think they were handled just slightly better in Awakening than in Fates). The everyone x everyone support system should be dropped, no question, I would even argue that it is in no way incompatible with customizable children. All it does is give us stupid and/or cringeworthy supports such as... most of Awakening's.

[Anacybele]

10 minutes ago, XRay said:

People have different priorities and tastes. I do not mind throwing money at Intelligent System for more DLC, but many players hate idea of companies releasing an "incomplete" game.

Yeah, but those players don't understand that it's not always an "incomplete game" if there's DLC. DLC doesn't have to necessarily "complete" a game. It has to simply add to it.

Like, take Mario Kart 8 for example. You don't need the DLC to get a truly full experience of the game. It's just a bonus. Same with Zelda: BotW. You don't NEED master mode or anything to enjoy the full story and characters and stuff. It's a bonus.

Now there are some cases of DLC just being a cash grab and "completing" a game. I've heard EA was notorious for doing this, locking content behind paywalls that would actually be required to finish the game or get a fuller experience with it. That's a shitty and greedy practice.

Nintendo normally does DLC right, imo.

9 minutes ago, Pokechu said:

Yeah, like if it was just me I would choose Paralogues but I can perfectly see why a majority would choose having a high quality cast and story. I can agree with you on Fates' kids being implemented really poorly and there not being very many good supports. But I really did enjoy having there be some kind of after-game activity for Fire Emblem, like in Fates children gave me something to do because I saved them for after I beat the last chapters. In a FE game without kids, there wouldn't be anything to really work for or achieve after the final chapter, you know?

I can agree with this. If children were implemented better, I don't mind playing around with them. But I'm not sure I trust IS to do that right now, so I for right now, I don't really want them and I want more quality characters and story rather than blatant in-your-face fanservice. NO more shit like that Birthright Camilla cutscene, PLEASE.

I'm not against fanservice itself, but I am against some ways that it's implemented. Fanservice done right is stuff like Heroes and Awakening's beach DLC. You can completely ignore it if you want, and it's there for those that like it, and it doesn't reflect on anything else badly. But Fates literally shoving Camilla's boobs, ass, and crotch in your face is just NO. Not everyone wants to see that stuff.

EDIT: @shadowofchaos You're right, but... Well, I guess I can't really argue against that and will concede the point. But I still wouldn't get why anyone would not mind a crappy story in a game like FE that has always had story as a big part of it.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Anacybele

[Rezzy]

I like building children units from a gameplay standpoint, but unless it's a generational system like FE4, I don't think they can really come up with a justification for it.

I like having a customizable unit, as long as they aren't Mary-Sued to oblivion.  Baldur's Gate and other RPGs do it just fine, so Avatar characters aren't inherently bad.

Romance is fine is some cases, but unless there's generational child units, I'd like to so most supports not end in romance.

[shadowofchaos]

6 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

But I still wouldn't get why anyone would not mind a crappy story in a game like FE that has always had story as a big part of it.
 

Ana, this is a major part of your personality that gets you in trouble.

Simply because it's outside of your norm, you push it aside until an example of it appears in front of you. And you generally use hearsay to justify your points.

For example:

18 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Seeing more characters interact is a valid desire, but when quality is sacrificed, it's not worth it. I want to read good and well done conversations and characterization when I see characters interact, don't you?

You're pushing your own views as a main point, despite it not even applying in any fashion to the person you're saying it to.

This is in addition to your own proclamation before that you have never finished, nor intend to finish, Conquest.

Edited July 16, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

Just now, shadowofchaos said:

Ana, this is a major part of your personality that gets you in trouble.

Simply because it's outside of your norm, you push it aside until an example of it appears in front of you. And you generally use hearsay to justify your points.

For example:

You're pushing your own views as a main point, despite it not even applying in any fashion to the person you're saying it to.

Hmm... Well, I don't mean to come off that way. My apologies. I guess I just want to understand other viewpoints more and I don't convey that as well as I should.

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

I'm not against fanservice itself, but I am against some ways that it's implemented. Fanservice done right is stuff like Heroes and Awakening's beach DLC. You can completely ignore it if you want, and it's there for those that like it. But Fates literally shoving Camilla's boobs, ass, and crotch in your face is just NO. Not everyone wants to see that stuff.

That is understandable, but considering the difference in attitude towards sex between Japanese and Western culture, I do not think fan service will be implemented the way most Westerners want it to be. As a straight man, I do not mind bumping into male crotches or being slapped in the butt in cut scenes, but I assume male fans out number female fans, and I highly doubt Japanese (or even Western) males would appreciate that level of intimacy with other males.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, XRay said:

That is understandable, but considering the difference in attitude towards sex between Japanese and Western culture, I do not think fan service will be implemented the way most Westerners want it to be. As a straight man, I do not mind bumping into male crotches or being slapped in the butt in cut scenes, but I assume male fans out number female fans, and I highly doubt Japanese (or even Western) males would appreciate that level of intimacy with other males.

Well, for localization, there's a thing called editing/censoring. Before you say "westerners hate censorship" I'm pretty sure that's a vocal minority. Besides, it didn't stop them from removing the dumb petting thing from Fates. They didn't need to remove the Camilla cutscene entirely, just cut the ass and crotch parts out at least. I'd prefer the boobs being cut out too, but a chest shot isn't QUITE as bad as an ass or crotch one, imo.

[Pokechu]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

I can agree with this. If children were implemented better, I don't mind playing around with them. But I'm not sure I trust IS to do that right now, so I for right now, I don't really want them and I want more quality characters and story rather than blatant in-your-face fanservice. NO more shit like that Birthright Camilla cutscene, PLEASE.

I'm not against fanservice itself, but I am against some ways that it's implemented. Fanservice done right is stuff like Heroes and Awakening's beach DLC. You can completely ignore it if you want, and it's there for those that like it. But Fates literally shoving Camilla's boobs, ass, and crotch in your face is just NO. Not everyone wants to see that stuff.

Yeah! I completely agree that children, while fun to some players, were pretty redundant in Fates. I too feel Fates went a bit overboard with fanservice. It kind of sucked having the Awakening trio and Gaius, Cordelia and Tharja because those could have been new characters. It felt really shoehorned. I do agree that Camilla's cutscene was too much.

I do agree with you that, although it would be disappointing imo to not have any post-game activities, children do take up a chunk of time the devs have, and the time may be better used on upping the game's overall quality. It's nice having something to do post-game, and having extra characters/maps in Conquest, but they were pretty wonky in Fates as a whole. It'd be really cool if IS added a new activity that people could enjoy, even after they finish the game, but kids were right in place in Awakening due to the story, not so much in Fates. I can see why people were deterred from Fates having a 2nd gen.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Pokechu said:

Yeah! I completely agree that children, while fun to some players, were pretty redundant in Fates. I too feel Fates went a bit overboard with fanservice. It kind of sucked having the Awakening trio and Gaius, Cordelia and Tharja because those could have been new characters. It felt really shoehorned. I do agree that Camilla's cutscene was too much.

I do agree with you that, although it would be disappointing imo to not have any post-game activities, children do take up a chunk of time the devs have, and the time may be better used on upping the game's overall quality. It's nice having something to do post-game, and having extra characters/maps in Conquest, but they were pretty wonky in Fates as a whole. It'd be really cool if IS added a new activity that people could enjoy, even after they finish the game, but kids were right in place in Awakening due to the story, not so much in Fates. I can see why people were deterred from Fates having a 2nd gen.

Yep, I pretty much agree here, including on the thing about Awakening characters. And Inigo was my favorite male character in Awakening not named Frederick. I also liked Severa and Cordelia. Gaius was kinda cool too. But they did not need to return that way. Even if it was Ike showing up there instead, I'd have hated it. I'd love to see Ike in an FE game again other than through his Amiibo, but if he's just going to be shoehorned in for no real good reason, I don't care for it. I want his inclusion to make sense, just as with any returning character. In fact, even as things stand, I'd have liked a bit more explanation on how the Amiibo characters came to be in the Fates world instead of just "a blue light took me away and here I am. Don't know why."

It IS nice having things to do post-game. But they need to be things worth doing.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

3 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I know that IS goofed pretty hard on the story side of avatars but I do like having a customizable unit. Give them a limited story role or give the player meaningful choices. Ideally you'd be able to pick a personality at character creation.

For children and romance (as done in Awakening and Fates), absolutely not. If children are involved, it will necessitate everyone x everyone supports which dilutes their quality as well as have out-of-nowhere romances (especially between incompatible personalities). Even without children, you're just cutting the final step in that bad formula. The characters are humans so sometimes they will fall in love or be in love already, but don't turn it into a core game mechanic. Most serious relationships that start in game should be resolved by the epilogue, not shotgun weddings.

These are the gist of my thoughts as well. A customizable unit adds to the gameplay, the other two just add drivel to the character support pools. I understand the appeal of having a second cast of units to recruit, but if they have the resources to make all these extra characters, just don't have them be children. Their personalities tend to be so opposite from their parents that it would be easy to write them as unrelated side characters, though I'd prefer units with more of a connection to the world they live in and/or the central plot of the game.

[XRay]

9 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Well, for localization, there's a thing called editing/censoring. Before you say "westerners hate censorship" I'm pretty sure that's a vocal minority. Besides, it didn't stop them from removing the dumb petting thing from Fates. They didn't need to remove the Camilla cutscene entirely, just cut the ass and crotch parts out at least. I'd prefer the boobs being cut out too, but a chest shot isn't QUITE as bad as an ass or crotch one, imo.

Censoring content for cultural reasons is... I do not know how to put it besides it sounding really bad and antidemocratic. I am against censorship in all forms unless there is a good reason for it, like protecting an individual from slander or something. It did not stop them from removing petting, but it leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths. It is as if Nintendo is saying that any hint of intimacy is a sign of sexual perversion. I am not sure if the censorship PR disaster is the main reason, but I think it is at least one of the factors contributing to the situation that we never got all the DLC for Fates in the Western release.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

I don't feel incredibly strongly about the first two, although I would say I like having a set lord that the story/map design can be worked around... early maps are often some of the best, because they account for the limited units available, and as soon as you change that the early maps lose luster. Long term story suffers as well; I just couldn't imagine the plot of say 6 or 8 (really anything pre-awakening) where the lords were avatars as we know them, or what an avatar could make better.

As far as making children, if the design team is willing to make that many units, add them in a reasonable fashion across the game as gen 1 units instead... I mean, it's fun to imagine the babies, but why not have them as embedded in to the cast so they can better add to the balance and story of the main game? That's why children are always a firm no, because I feel like they could have been more adults - if that makes sense.

 

[Anacybele]

11 minutes ago, XRay said:

Censoring content for cultural reasons is... I do not know how to put it besides it sounding really bad and antidemocratic. I am against censorship in all forms unless there is a good reason for it, like protecting an individual from slander or something. It did not stop them from removing petting, but it leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths. It is as if Nintendo is saying that any hint of intimacy is a sign of sexual perversion. I am not sure if the censorship PR disaster is the main reason, but I think it is at least one of the factors contributing to the situation that we never got all the DLC for Fates in the Western release.

But as you said, cultures are different and while one thing may be accepted in one country, it could be totally looked down upon in another.

For example, Pokemon has even had censorship for this reason. Team Rocket and Registeel had instances where they looked like they were doing the Hitler salute and for understandable reasons, Europe hates this. It went ignored in the other western regions, I think.

In the US, we don't really touch people the way they do in Fates's petting game. Japan may be okay with it, but to us it's an invasion of personal space and just plain weird. That's why it was removed in the western releases.

And objectifying women like Camilla was in that cutscene is looked down upon out here too. I also feel like censoring that cutscene would've helped Camilla as a character too. She's not meant to be some slut or prostitute, she's meant to be a motherly figure with a screwy, but kind of understandable way of going about her obsession with Corrin. Though that's also a problem with her design in general.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Anacybele

[Armagon]

13 hours ago, ElectiveToast said:

For those who think we should go the Hardcore route: http://www.ign.com/games/fire-emblem-echoes/3ds-20063863

 

 http://www.ign.com/games/fire-emblem-fates-birthright/3ds-20030058 http://www.ign.com/games/fire-emblem-fates-conquest/3ds-20041078 http://www.ign.com/games/fire-emblem-fates-revelation/3ds-20045917 

 

http://www.ign.com/games/fire-emblem-awakening/3ds-91264 

IGN shouldn't be taken seriously

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Birthright vs Conquest:
http://www.siliconera.com/2015/07/03/fire-emblem-fates-birthright-sold-more-than-conquest-in-japan/

It's worth noting that Birthright was heavily Japanese themed. It makes sense why Birthright sold more than Conquest over there.

Though i don't know anything about the Japanese Fire Emblem community, other than Tellius being the least popular FE series over there.

3 hours ago, XRay said:

Awakening:
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/70704/fire-emblem-awakening/Japan/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/70704/fire-emblem-awakening/USA/

Fates:
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/85716/fire-emblem-fates/Japan/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/85716/fire-emblem-fates/USA/

Echoes:
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/154085/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-of-valentia/Japan/
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/154085/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-of-valentia/USA/

VGcharts is unreliable. Though undoubatly, Awakening and Fates did sell more than Echoes, but that's because Echoes didn't have as much markiting, and the fact that it was a remake of the black sheep of the series+releasing near the end of the 3DS lifespan (did you know that the standard New 3DS has been discontinued in Japan and Europe) are also factors worth noting.

Though Echoes did sell what was expected, so it's technically a success.

3 hours ago, XRay said:

If Waifu Emblem and Casual Mode is what it takes to save the series from a fate like Advance Wars' oblivion, then it is clearly "superior" to hardcore game play.

3 hours ago, XRay said:

In my opinion, it is always better to have the series adapt and evolve. Hard core and nostalgic game play elements will reappear from time to time for the minority to enjoy, like Conquest and Echoes, but these elements cannot be the focus of the series as a whole.

Really though. We can have a Fire Emblem game that pleases both sides of the audience. You can have your Avatars and your S-Supports and children, while also making the game appeal to the more hardcore fanbase. The best example of this is New Mystery of the Emblem. That game had an Avatar, Reclassing, Casual Mode, Support Conversations in the vein of Awakening and Fates, basically stuff that would appeal to the newer side of the fandom. If FE16 can do what New Mystery did, then i think it could work. You can have your newer series elements while also using some of the older series elements. Everyone wins.

I think that's what they were trying to with Fates, but their mistake was selling each path as it's own game (there's the Special Edition, i know, but i'm not one of the 10 people who got it).

Also, Echoes shouldn't really be considered a "hardcore" or "classic" experience. That game is very different from the rest of the series. Remember that Echoes is a remake of Gaiden, which was the Zelda II of Fire Emblem.

3 hours ago, XRay said:

If Intelligent Systems does not get its priority straight, we may never see another Fire Emblem game...

Nah, Fire Emblem isn't anywhere close to being on it's deathbed for a second time. Heroes is a cash-cow for IS, and having not one, but two Fire Emblem titles on the Switch (admittedly, there's some heated debates about Warriors) would definitely earn them money.

2 hours ago, XRay said:

When did Fate's children ever mess with the plot? The plot completely ignores them and they completely ignore the plot, just like Einherjar units. I never heard of anyone complain about Einherjar units before. Their maps are literally called paralogues instead of chapters to distinguish its significance to the plot, and the reward is an "Einherjar" unit with some extra dialogue, better stats, and more reclass options

Fates' children didn't mess with the plot, but they had no reason to be there. Don't get me wrong, i like the Fates children (Soleil is second best Fates girl, losing only to Azura), but they should've honestly just been 1st Gen characters. And Einherjar are different. They are literally only there as a celebration of the series. Remember, IS thought Awakening would be the last FE game. Awakening was my first Fire Emblem game, but i didn't even know that Einherjar units existed until i played around with the menus and found out about them by complete accident. I am grateful for the Einherjar though, as they introduced me to the rest of the series.

2 hours ago, XRay said:

And where did static, "traditional" game play landed Fire Emblem? It is that narrow mindedness and style of gameplay that caused Fire Emblem to slowly drift into obscurity and near abandonment if Intelligent Systems did not try to open up the series to newer players.

Again, marketing for Fire Emblem pre-Awakening was abysmal. I found out about Fire Emblem thanks to Brawl, and i also learned that there was a Fire Emblem game for the Wii called Radiant Dawn. But i never saw the game in stores, ever. None of my friends knew anything about it other than it existed. I didn't even know what Fire Emblem gameplay was like until i saw Awakening in a Nintendo Direct.

Oh, and we can't forget the infamous FE7 commericlal

Spoiler

This doesn't look like Fire Emblem. This looks like Lord of the Rings or something.

Btw, i should mention that, prior to Fates, Mystery of the Emblem was the best selling Fire Emblem, with the Jugdral series being a close second. Now, the Tellius series had very poor sales in Japan, but i don't know how marketing went over there. They at least had commercials for each game though, as opposed to the West not getting a commercial for Fire Emblem besides the one above (pre-Awakening). So if someone with knowledge of the Japanese FE community can tell me why Tellius sold so poorly, i'd like to hear it.

2 hours ago, XRay said:

Fire Emblem deserves to die if it does not adapt to changing tastes

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Fire Emblem deserves to die if it keeps pandering more and more to fanservice and shitty children and marriage instead of being the strategy RPG it always was before.

Comments like these are why the Fire Emblem community gets a bad rep.

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Fire Emblem would not die if it panders to fan service. There is not a single SRPG without waifus I can think of that comes close to Fire Emblem's popularity. In fact, Kantai Collection and similar waifu/husbando games points to the success of pandering to fan service, despite the decline of games with turn based RPG combat. There is no reason for Fire Emblem to not adapt to newer fan's taste and ensure the success and longevity of the series. Until you can prove that fan service is bad for the series with numbers like sales figures, I would argue fan service is good for the series.

It depends on how the fanservice is done. I don't mind fanservice, unless it's really shoved into my face. In the case of Fire Emblem, it isn't. Even the Jugdral games had fanservice, i mean, have you seen the dancers? I think people's main problem with fanservice is when it's out of place, which is understandable when Nohr has it's female Cavaliers not wear any pants. It's understandable for Dancers to wear revealing clothing. It's understandable for female mages to show some skin. But in cases like Camilla, where she wears armor that somehow exposes her cleavage, then that's when people start to complain. The point of armor it to protect your body, yet Camilla's chest is still exposed. And we can't forget that cutscene. Stuff like that is what gets under people's skin. I don't mind it, but i understand where people are coming from.

Also, Japan really loves dating sims iirc, which would explain why newer FE games have had S-Supports.

[Anacybele]

4 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Comments like these are why the Fire Emblem community gets a bad rep.

Yeah, I suppose that comment wasn't the nicest thing I could've said...

As for why Tellius sold poorly, it was a combination of things not related to its gameplay. It didn't have much marketing beyond a commercial or two and RD getting a tiny showing in E3. PoR was released at a piss poor time. So was RD, though to a bit of a lesser extent. It also didn't help RD that it was on a console that, while super successful, appealed way more to the casual market than more hardcore, and FE wasn't the kind of game those casual fans played. Oh, and on top of PoR having a piss poor release, the GC wasn't that successful. AND, neither game had a big print run. You can't sell a lot of copies if you don't even print a lot of them.

RD got a reprint in 2014, but that got no marketing either, and was very limited.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Anacybele

[ElectiveToast]

Guys, let's not get into this fallacy of "Any source that doesn't agree with me is unreliable." Just a side note.