Opinions on the beastkin classes?

[Alastor15243]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Because of the needing resources - am I supposed to assume that a specific mineral is the one available in my castle... when there's far more of a chance that it's NOT the one (needless to say, if you don't have the right ore, the forging process slows down practically to a screeching halt)? And even taking ore swaps into account, there's still the part where you only get ores once per four fights. So what, am I supposed to fight more and more fights until I have enough? Or stop playing for about a whole day?

Just want to make sure I get this straight: you're perfectly fine using DLC to grind, but you draw the line at visiting other peoples' castles?

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

Just want to make sure I get this straight: you're perfectly fine using DLC to grind, but you draw the line at visiting other peoples' castles?

That's not always an option, now is it?

[Alastor15243]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That's not always an option, now is it?

You can literally do it as many times as you like as long as you don't want to visit the exact same castle multiple times a day.

And besides, even if ore sources don't always come back after each battle, the arena does, and if you're good with the arena you can increase your ore output drastically.

[Shadow Mir]

7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

You can literally do it as many times as you like as long as you don't want to visit the exact same castle multiple times a day.

And besides, even if ore sources don't always come back after each battle, the arena does, and if you're good with the arena you can increase your ore output drastically.

That's not what I was getting at - what if the weather goes bad? Then online stuff stops being an option.

Correction: If you're lucky with the arena. Because it tends to BS you with matchups that are ridiculously obviously in the enemy's favour. Like, have a swordmaster ready to fight? TOO BAD - hope you like the General present that was prepared just for them!

Edited October 28, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Correction: If you're lucky with the arena. Because it tends to BS you with matchups that are so obviously in the enemy's favour. Like, have a swordmaster ready to fight? TOO BAD - hope you like the General present that was prepared just for them!

Hint: none of the arena units have skills, and they don't buff the arena fighters at all to compensate for yours. You can rip them to shreds if you give your units good ones. A procstacking unit will destroy the arena.

[Shadow Mir]

8 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Hint: none of the arena units have skills, and they don't buff the arena fighters at all to compensate for yours. You can rip them to shreds if you give your units good ones. A procstacking unit will destroy the arena.

That doesn't disprove my point. Also, procstacks probably won't be happening without skill buying. What's more, arena opponents can and will break caps.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That doesn't disprove my point. Also, procstacks probably won't be happening without skill buying.

Your "point" was that the arena is rigged in favor of the house with no real skill behind winning, and I pointed out just one build that proves you wrong. And it's really easy to make your avatar a procstacker as long as you plan ahead a bit, and considering that a few of the avatar's unique skills lend themselves significantly to that build it's not a bad idea. But it was just one example. There are plenty of ways to make units specially designed to tear the arena to shreds, you're simply dismissing something you haven't tried as impossible again.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Your "point" was that the arena is rigged in favor of the house with no real skill behind winning, and I pointed out just one build that proves you wrong. And it's really easy to make your avatar a procstacker as long as you plan ahead a bit, and considering that a few of the avatar's unique skills lend themselves significantly to that build it's not a bad idea. But it was just one example. There are plenty of ways to make units specially designed to tear the arena to shreds, you're simply dismissing something you haven't tried as impossible again.

It's called "being pragmatic". Maybe instead of preaching idealistic drivel, you should give it a try. Also, those unique skills you're droning on about? You won't be seeing them until the game's nearly over.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

It's called "being realistic". Maybe instead of preaching idealistic drivel, you should give it a try.

Realistic? You are talking about a scenario in which you do use dlc grinding, don't use castle visits, play so many chapters in a single day that you barely get any ore drops, and refuse to put any effort into taking advantage of the other resource source given to you. How many people other than you do you honestly think play like that?

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, joshcja said:

120kish raw in money drops.

200kish if you sell all of the useless junk in the game.

Infinite moneys if you farm MC.

Except for the part where the "infinite moneys" is from a source that's laughably slow to farm, as well as only giving out chump change (Lilith).

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Realistic? You are talking about a scenario in which you do use dlc grinding, don't use castle visits, play so many chapters in a single day that you barely get any ore drops, and refuse to put any effort into taking advantage of the other resource source given to you. How many people other than you do you honestly think play like that?

Because it's not like bad weather is a thing, right? Also, I pretty much never felt the need to meddle with castle visiting after getting enough BP for the Battle Seal. And if the other resource you're referring to is the arena, taking advantage of it doesn't mean jack nor shit if you get unlucky and lose.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

24 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Because it's not like bad weather is a thing, right?

I mean... yeah? Maybe? Most internet connections aren't actually affected by conventional weather, but sure, okay, let's assume yours is. That's still quite the infrequent occurrence to dictate your entire standard playstyle on.

As for the rest of what you said, you're just regurgitating previous points about the arena I literally just finished explaining were wrong. Apart from saying... you do realize if it looks like you're going to lose you can quit the arena, right? If you have the slightest amount of common sense, even with a random unit unfit for the arena, then losing resources is far less frequent than winning them.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Alastor15243

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

I mean... yeah? Maybe? Most internet connections aren't actually affected by conventional weather, but sure, okay, let's assume yours is. That's still quite the infrequent occurrence to dictate your entire standard playstyle on.

As for the rest of what you said, you're just regurgitating previous points about the arena I literally just finished explaining were wrong. Apart from saying... you do realize if it looks like you're going to lose you can quit the arena, right? If you have the slightest amount of common sense, even with a random unit unfit for the arena, then losing resources is far less frequent than winning them.

It's still something I can't really discount, though. Anyways, I don't really see the forge as legitimate since it's much too random to really be relied upon (either sword users have an easy time getting forged weapons, or lancers do, or... neither of them do).

And yet you boasted that procstackers destroy the arena... With zero thought whatsoever about how late that a procstack build would likely be achieved (I wouldn't expect anyone besides Corrin to get any notable number of proc skills, and even then, you're still at the mercy of other elements of luck), or that some procs can get in the way of others. I will admit, though, that I did forget about yielding.

[Alastor15243]

15 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And yet you boasted that procstackers destroy the arena... With zero thought whatsoever about how late that a procstack build would likely be achieved (I wouldn't expect anyone besides Corrin to get any notable number of proc skills, and even then, you're still at the mercy of other elements of luck), or that some procs can get in the way of others. I will admit, though, that I did forget about yielding.

Actually, the arena's pretty trivial until around the point where procstacks become possible, so the late-game nature of them is kinda irrelevant. Until then 1 or 2 arena victories are pretty easy to handle as long as you know when to yield.

Oh, and also...

"Zero thought to how some procs get in the way of others"? First off, this is a hilariously presumptuous statement from somebody who never even asked which procs I stacked, and 2, procs are prioritized in order of damage quality, so there is literally only one proc in the entire game that even could get in the way of another one, and that's the defensive Sol, which, incidentally, I stopped using since Awakening.

[De Geso]

49 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Actually, the arena's pretty trivial until around the point where procstacks become possible, so the late-game nature of them is kinda irrelevant. Until then 1 or 2 arena victories are pretty easy to handle as long as you know when to yield.

Oh, and also...

"Zero thought to how some procs get in the way of others"? First off, this is a hilariously presumptuous statement from somebody who never even asked which procs I stacked, and 2, procs are prioritized in order of damage quality, so there is literally only one proc in the entire game that even could get in the way of another one, and that's the defensive Sol, which, incidentally, I stopped using since Awakening.

Dude, don't waste your time. @Levant Mir Celestia will never agree with what you have to say, he'll always come up with some other nonsensical argument every single time you prove him wrong. He's a contrarian for the sake of it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

You can easily get more ore via the arena. It's not so special at L1, but at L2 it becomes +3 each time, and I almost always find I win arena fights (and save/reload is an option if you lose).

Past that rate of play is a personal preference but I certainly do less than four fights per day, so ore builds up a bit faster than once per 4 fights for me. You also get an automatic free draw of ore both times you upgrade the ore spring.

You lose a net of 20 ore from doing five ore swaps over the course of the game, and that's assuming you want to forge weapons of every type. (Just be careful to never spend your last ore of a colour that isn't the default for your base.) If we assume you get a new ore once every two fights and do an arena once every fight, and that you do like... 4 paralogues (i.e. roughly how many you'll get if you aren't even trying to pair people), that's about 20-30 ore from the ore spring, +1 per fight from chapter 9 to 15, +3 per fight (or even more) thereafter... so probably another 40-50 more there. That's already enough to make a dozen +2 weapons by the time the game ends, speaking conservatively. We've also totally ignored the free ore you can get randomly (e.g. from the lottery), which can speed up the process notably since it saves you an ore swap.

Acting like forging is impractical in this game is just weird. Even weirder than acting like Berserkers are impractical because you continuously seem to forget that ways to patch up crit avoid exist. I feel like I say this every time I see you debating this, so I will say it again. I agree with you that the risk of fatal crits is unacceptable. I still think Berserkers are a worthwhile class. If they didn't have the crit avoid penalty they'd be a downright broken class, with their amazing Str/Spd/HP.

 

EDIT: Whoops, didn't even notice there was a fourth page. Oh well, I think the content of my post still applies to the ore/arena debate, so leaving it here.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Dark Holy Elf

[Harvey]

On 21/10/2017 at 8:48 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Wolfskin were good, strong, tanky, with the potential to be doubling fast. The existence of the Beastrune and Beaststone does indeed help them out as you suggest. The skills they get aren't too bad either- better and more plentiful than what the Taguel got.

Problem is that it comes with the price of having low skill and Keaton needs skill inorder to hit anything reliably. 

I like the wolfskin class as it looks completely different. Its not looking exactly like a wolf but its fine nonetheless. 

But really...I find the beastclasses somewhat of an oddity due to the fact that Fire Emblem is a franchise that always links humans and dragons and nothing else. Most games pretty much make you face dragons towards the end game so the idea of other beasts existing is more or less redundant.

Combat wise, I don't use them much...either its because I have a hard time with them(again Keaton and also Fae) or because it just makes sense to play as dragons instead.

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, Harvey said:

But really...I find the beastclasses somewhat of an oddity due to the fact that Fire Emblem is a franchise that always links humans and dragons and nothing else. Most games pretty much make you face dragons towards the end game so the idea of other beasts existing is more or less redundant.

 

It didn't in Tellius, the one big exception. In Tellius, the Herons are as important, if not more so than the Dragons from a plot perspective. And the rest of the Laguz are well integrated into the game, I mean Laguz-Beorc relations is why all of the countries of Tellius exist. Begnion was to be the ideal home of Beorc and Laguz, barring the Dragons. Then war breaks out among the ruling elite along racial lines and the Beorc emerge supreme. Laguz discrimination and slavery in Begnion leads to Phoenicis and Gallia forming, and Beorc who like the Laguz to break off and form Crimea. Daein later breaks away because some Senator thought Begnion's treatment of the Laguz was getting too good for the sub-humans. Wars have been fought over the issue. Why *RD Spoilers*

Spoiler

The goddess Ashunera broke in two over Laguz-Beorc conflict. And the conflict is the source of Lehran's descent into suicidal despair.

 

The Taguel exist as a cheap Laguz reference, and Hoshido's Japan aesthetic was just begging for Kitsune, which therefore needed a Nohrian counterpart in the Wolfskin. Yet none of these are built into their worlds, they just exist with no backstory, while the Laguz had oodles of it.

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/28/2017 at 11:39 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

You can easily get more ore via the arena. It's not so special at L1, but at L2 it becomes +3 each time, and I almost always find I win arena fights (and save/reload is an option if you lose).

Past that rate of play is a personal preference but I certainly do less than four fights per day, so ore builds up a bit faster than once per 4 fights for me. You also get an automatic free draw of ore both times you upgrade the ore spring.

You lose a net of 20 ore from doing five ore swaps over the course of the game, and that's assuming you want to forge weapons of every type. (Just be careful to never spend your last ore of a colour that isn't the default for your base.) If we assume you get a new ore once every two fights and do an arena once every fight, and that you do like... 4 paralogues (i.e. roughly how many you'll get if you aren't even trying to pair people), that's about 20-30 ore from the ore spring, +1 per fight from chapter 9 to 15, +3 per fight (or even more) thereafter... so probably another 40-50 more there. That's already enough to make a dozen +2 weapons by the time the game ends, speaking conservatively. We've also totally ignored the free ore you can get randomly (e.g. from the lottery), which can speed up the process notably since it saves you an ore swap.

Acting like forging is impractical in this game is just weird. Even weirder than acting like Berserkers are impractical because you continuously seem to forget that ways to patch up crit avoid exist. I feel like I say this every time I see you debating this, so I will say it again. I agree with you that the risk of fatal crits is unacceptable. I still think Berserkers are a worthwhile class. If they didn't have the crit avoid penalty they'd be a downright broken class, with their amazing Str/Spd/HP.

 

EDIT: Whoops, didn't even notice there was a fourth page. Oh well, I think the content of my post still applies to the ore/arena debate, so leaving it here.

With regards to the Berserker stuff, I DID say stuff along those lines earlier...

On 10/27/2017 at 8:10 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'm not saying it can't be played around, but rather, I'm saying that you HAVE to constantly play around it if you want to not auto-lose, and that can be very limiting.

It doesn't help they're locked to axes. Nor does my admitted bias against infantry axes (though I'd blame Intsys for that since most of the infantry axe units in the series tend to be outright garbage at worst to mediocre at best). Nor does it that Arthur and Charlotte are both among the worst fighters I've seen in a Fire Emblem game ever. And on top of all this, you can't go in with 80s and 90s and think "I ain't gonna miss this one" because this is Fates. Long story short, using a Berserker in Fates is akin to using the likes of Fire Blast, Thunder, etc. over their more accurate counterparts, if you ask me (and I'd always take the less powerful, but more accurate Flamethrower or Thunderbolt over the aforementioned moves). Or High Jump Kick, except with even more risk attached to it.

As for forging, my gripe about it is that I largely deem it to be much too luck-of-the-draw related to use it as a legitimate argument - it doesn't matter what so-and-so can do with a +2 weapon if you don't have the requisite ore in your castle, as I see it, largely because the forge process slows down to a crawl due to having to jump through that many more hoops.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[joshcja]

So ignoring the part where light forging is impossible in some bizzaro alternate universe.

Power won the accuracy vs power debate in competitive mons, failing to kill 100% of the time is always worse than risking a miss. This was resolved in gen 1. So this has been accepted as common sense and common knowledge for 20ish years now. Saying "Be is fire blast" is synonomous with saying "Why would I ever use anything else?" in this context.

Bonus round: The fixed 1/16 crit in mons (in not gen 1) on every single action is higher than a Be's hit-by-crit will ever be and is much more likely to be relevant in not-fire-emblem for both casual and competitive play.

Stop being bad at logic. You cannot advocate total risk adversion in FE and touch the giant pile of rng horseshit that is mons in the same breath.

Edited October 30, 2017 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

On October 28, 2017 at 9:49 PM, YouSquiddinMe said:

Dude, don't waste your time. @Levant Mir Celestia will never agree with what you have to say, he'll always come up with some other nonsensical argument every single time you prove him wrong. He's a contrarian for the sake of it.

"Contrarian" isn't how I'd put it, to be frank. I just have a VERY hard time taking what others say at face value. Case in point: the archer argument on the first page. As far as ingame goes, Galeforce snipers sound like (and as far as I'm concerned, are) more trouble than they're worth to set up, especially when they involve digging your way out of E rank, which is pretty much always the case, with one exception, that being a male Morgan fathered by Virion (and that has it's own problems).

Edited October 31, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

On 10/31/2017 at 1:44 AM, joshcja said:

So ignoring the part where light forging is impossible in some bizzaro alternate universe.

Power won the accuracy vs power debate in competitive mons, failing to kill 100% of the time is always worse than risking a miss. This was resolved in gen 1. So this has been accepted as common sense and common knowledge for 20ish years now. Saying "Be is fire blast" is synonomous with saying "Why would I ever use anything else?" in this context.

Bonus round: The fixed 1/16 crit in mons (in not gen 1) on every single action is higher than a Be's hit-by-crit will ever be and is much more likely to be relevant in not-fire-emblem for both casual and competitive play.

Stop being bad at logic. You cannot advocate total risk adversion in FE and touch the giant pile of rng horseshit that is mons in the same breath.

 

>using mon example

>Did not bring up the broken bullshit that is Thunder Wave

 

ur better than this bruh

[joshcja]

2 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

 

>using mon example

>Did not bring up the broken bullshit that is Thunder Wave

 

ur better than this bruh

First rule of yellow magic is don't talk about yellow magic.

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 10/30/2017 at 11:44 AM, joshcja said:

Power won the accuracy vs power debate in competitive mons, failing to kill 100% of the time is always worse than risking a miss. This was resolved in gen 1. So this has been accepted as common sense and common knowledge for 20ish years now. Saying "Be is fire blast" is synonomous with saying "Why would I ever use anything else?" in this context.

This.. isn't really correct. I'm totally out of the Pokemon loop these days but I knew gen 1-3 pretty well and Fire Blast vs Flamethrower was generally considered relatively balanced as a choice, some people would prefer one and some would prefer the other. Not that this is a "fair" comparison, because Fire Blast actually has greater average damage than Flamethrower by around 7%. Average damage usually wins out in the end; everyone agrees that RBY Blizzard > Ice Beam > GSC Blizzard, for instance.

On the other hand, when the average damage was roughly equal, you had Surf vs Hydro Pump, and virtually nobody used Hydro Pump, which does suggest a preference for accuracy at base (though PP concerns can factor in too).

 

Regardless, I'd use caution in drawing parallels between Pokemon and Fire Emblem for game balance. FE fights are longer and losing even one of your units is frequently seen as unacceptable (on Classic at least). Neither of these apply to Pokemon. As a hypothetical example that illustrates the difference, a Pokemon move that was "sacrifice this pokemon to kill your target opponent" would be useful! (a strictly better version of Explosion in singles play). In FE such a skill would be complete junk.

[Interdimensional Observer]

51 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

a Pokemon move that was "sacrifice this pokemon to kill your target opponent" would be useful! (a strictly better version of Explosion in singles play). In FE such a skill would be complete junk.

Reminds me of Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume

Plume o'er the battlefield, unto thee thy power yield! *A level 1 Villager Mozu suddenly gets 40s across the board* Then again the Plume was more of a "you failed to meet the minimum Sin quota last fight, now you must either plume to win, or you lose" provided you haven't already hit your plume use quota before Freya GOs you.

 

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

aleforce snipers sound like (and as far as I'm concerned, are) more trouble than they're worth to set up, especially when they involve digging your way out of E rank, which is pretty much always the case, with one exception, that being a male Morgan fathered by Virion (and that has it's own problems).

You could buy Jamke- but Einherjar are cheating! Archers are useless barring a massive grind for everyone in Awakening I shall admit, the enemy phase is just too big.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

This.. isn't really correct. I'm totally out of the Pokemon loop these days but I knew gen 1-3 pretty well and Fire Blast vs Flamethrower was generally considered relatively balanced as a choice, some people would prefer one and some would prefer the other. Not that this is a "fair" comparison, because Fire Blast actually has greater average damage than Flamethrower by around 7%. Average damage usually wins out in the end; everyone agrees that RBY Blizzard > Ice Beam > GSC Blizzard, for instance.

On the other hand, when the average damage was roughly equal, you had Surf vs Hydro Pump, and virtually nobody used Hydro Pump, which does suggest a preference for accuracy at base (though PP concerns can factor in too).

 

Regardless, I'd use caution in drawing parallels between Pokemon and Fire Emblem for game balance. FE fights are longer and losing even one of your units is frequently seen as unacceptable (on Classic at least). Neither of these apply to Pokemon. As a hypothetical example that illustrates the difference, a Pokemon move that was "sacrifice this pokemon to kill your target opponent" would be useful! (a strictly better version of Explosion in singles play). In FE such a skill would be complete junk.

 

The trend with pokemon is actually closer to 80% ACC is the norm. Fire Blast is honestly one of the most lopsided example you can get of the power option being better because of 85% ACC and high BP

Focus blast is exception due to literal lack of option

Hydro Pump was used on virtually every offensive water mon. It was used on 2 out of 3 Broken Trio. It was used on Starmie at its prime(one of the argument that Rain was broken is the fact that Analytic Starmie Hydro 2HKO Ferro iirc). Washing Machine used it but it had no option so im not counting that one. Standard Keldeo that is used on Blunder The classic also used it

One area where this comparison with pokemon also falls apart is because the example were picking so far is fucking trash and is basically picked for sake of convenient.

Nobody is using Surf and Flamethrower, they used Scald and Lava Plume and those are even more RNG than any sort of power vs accuracy debate you can hold. Pokemon RNG is so absurd that during XY Keldeo would click Scald over Icy Wind even when your opponent telegraphed their Latios switch in from miles away

Edited November 1, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner