Opinions on the beastkin classes?

[Shadow Mir]

13 hours ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Every wolfskin in Conquest is better as another class (namely, Wyvern Lord, since they should both have something to do with Camilla at all times and it's one of the best classes in the game).

Keaton (who is just bad unless he's riding Camilla's Wyvern) and Velouria also make solid zerkers, but Arthur is just better at it (availability, weapon ranks, the works) though Camilla!Velouria is arguably better in terms of raw stats than Arthur if she joins after chapter 18 (it depends on how your Arthur turned out, and he's usually the GOAT so.)

That said, they're okay, a pretty inoffensive class overall. Certainly better than Kitsune and Taguel, but not having 1-2 range does hurt them a lot (especially in Conquest when good 2 range is a premier commodity). They kill a unit on player phase and sometimes take a few hits on enemy phase, but you have Xander/Effie/Benny for the latter anyway so it's probably not all that necessary.

But they're alright on Normal or Hard, and you can get away with using them on Lunatic if you're just playing it casually.

I disagree, if only because that means having to dig your way out of E rank, which might not be ideal by the tine the wolfskin show up.

I dunno about the validity of your statement about Keaton - I often just use his daughter instead. Anyways, I fail to see Berserker as appealing for them for reasons I shouldn't have to explain if you know me well enough, in addition to the aforementioned needing to dig your way out of E rank.

What's this about good 2-range? Because frankly, outside of Siegfried, which is locked to Xander, good 2-range is pretty rare.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[De Geso]

4 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I disagree, if only because that means having to dig your way out of E rank, which might not be ideal by the tine the wolfskin show up.

I dunno about the validity of your statement about Keaton - I often just use his daughter instead. Anyways, I fail to see Berserker as appealing for them for reasons I shouldn't have to explain if you know me well enough, in addition to the aforementioned needing to dig your way out of E rank.

What's this about good 2-range? Because frankly, outside of Siegfried, which is locked to Xander, good 2-range is pretty rare.

There are more arms scrolls than you'll ever need to get units out of E rank.

I know you dislike Berserkers, but it's still 100% a better class than wolfskin. If you deny that, you're being contrarian for the sake of it. Berserker is just better than Wolfskin. Enemy criticals won't happen to good players, but wolfskin being bad is an inescapable feature of the class itself.

That's my point - having good 2 range is hard to come by and as such it's very valuable. Wolfskin and other beast classes have zero access to it and can never gain any access to it, where most other classes can (granted Axe 2 range is still suboptimal, at least it's present).

[Shadow Mir]

26 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

There are more arms scrolls than you'll ever need to get units out of E rank.

I know you dislike Berserkers, but it's still 100% a better class than wolfskin. If you deny that, you're being contrarian for the sake of it. Berserker is just better than Wolfskin. Enemy criticals won't happen to good players, but wolfskin being bad is an inescapable feature of the class itself.

That's my point - having good 2 range is hard to come by and as such it's very valuable. Wolfskin and other beast classes have zero access to it and can never gain any access to it, where most other classes can (granted Axe 2 range is still suboptimal, at least it's present).

And yet the only ones I can think of are the two in the level 3 shop. . .

Yeah, it is... If you ignore the fact that they're volatile, that is. And needless to say, I'm not naïve enough or foolhardy enough to ignore that. There's no way in the seven hells I would consider a highly risky class anything other than bottom of the barrel.

Which doesn't bother me that much since 2 range options got nerfed.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[De Geso]

6 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And yet the only ones I can think of are the two in the level 3 shop. . .

Yeah, it is... If you ignore the fact that they're volatile classes, that is. And needless to say, I'm not naïve enough or foolhardy enough to ignore that. There's no way in the seven hells I would consider a highly risky class anything other than bottom of the barrel.

Which doesn't bother me that much since 2 range options got nerfed.

There's one in chapter 13.

Berserkers aren't volatile classes if you play the game correctly. I'm not going to discuss this with you because tons of people already have and you're too stubborn to budge on it.

2 range not being as good as before doesn't mean it isn't good to have 2 range.

[Shadow Mir]

30 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

There's one in chapter 13.

Berserkers aren't volatile classes if you play the game correctly. I'm not going to discuss this with you because tons of people already have and you're too stubborn to budge on it.

2 range not being as good as before doesn't mean it isn't good to have 2 range.

Only one? That's all? After all that banter about "more arms scrolls than you'll ever need"??? I am disappointed.

Playing the game correctly... Hah! What, do you live in some land of sunshine and rainbows??? If they're risky even when I'm "playing the game correctly", the problem is the class itself.

Fair enough.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[De Geso]

33 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Only one? That's all? After all that banter about "more arms scrolls than you'll ever need"??? I am disappointed.

Playing the game correctly... Hah! What, do you live in some land of sunshine and rainbows??? If they're risky even when I'm "playing the game correctly", the problem is the class itself.

Fair enough.

Three is more than you'll ever need. weapon rank grinding doesn't take that long.

If you would just listen to what countless people have told you and told you and told you, you'd know that they aren't risky if you play well. I.e. don't put a berserker in range of a killing edge, dummy.

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

If you would just listen to what countless people have told you and told you and told you, you'd know that they aren't risky if you play well. I.e. don't put a berserker in range of a killing edge, dummy.

Killer weapons are uncommon, so way to not help your case, genius. It's not like playing correctly makes them magically not face crit chances from cannon fodder...

[joshcja]

40 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Three is more than you'll ever need. weapon rank grinding doesn't take that long.

If you would just listen to what countless people have told you and told you and told you, you'd know that they aren't risky if you play well. I.e. don't put a berserker in range of a killing edge, dummy.

Posts like this make me wish SF had a "like post" button.

[SavageVolug]

I have always loved the beast shifting characters ever since I played Radiant Dawn, it's something I wish would be brought back (a variety of beast shifting characters). Keaton and Velouria are both great with decent skill and great stats all around. I do think though that units of this type should be given some kind of range skill like maybe Howl or Quickclaw from Radiant Dawn or maybe something completely different. All in all though I had a great time with Keaton and Velourie, Panne and Yarne not as much but that might be due to they were bunnies as opposed to wolves/tigers/lions or dragons.

[Shadow Mir]

25 minutes ago, SavageVolug said:

I have always loved the beast shifting characters ever since I played Radiant Dawn, it's something I wish would be brought back (a variety of beast shifting characters). Keaton and Velouria are both great with decent skill and great stats all around. I do think though that units of this type should be given some kind of range skill like maybe Howl or Quickclaw from Radiant Dawn or maybe something completely different. All in all though I had a great time with Keaton and Velourie, Panne and Yarne not as much but that might be due to they were bunnies as opposed to wolves/tigers/lions or dragons.

Well, other than the fact that Howl and Quickclaw (and by extension, the equivalent skills for birds) were, to be blunt, worthless - they required the unit to get hit, which can be pretty unlikely if they're transformed (there's also the fact that getting attacked while transformed reduced your transform gauge). Grisly Wound, while it was a level 15 skill, was much better than either of those ever were.

[SavageVolug]

15 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Well, other than the fact that Howl and Quickclaw (and by extension, the equivalent skills for birds) were, to be blunt, worthless - they required the unit to get hit, which can be pretty unlikely if they're transformed (there's also the fact that getting attacked while transformed reduced your transform gauge). Grisly Wound, while it was a level 15 skill, was much better than either of those ever were.

True, and I agree Grisly Wound is definitely far, far better I just meant that a skill or something that allowed them to attack at range or at least counter any range attackers would be nice.

[Shoblongoo]

I don't think quickclaw was a bad skill...i think the problem was that the non-royal laguz were nerfed so badly in RD, all its potential users were bad regardless of whether or not you gave them the skill. Just imagine the silliness of quickclaw mordecai in PoR. The idea of giving the beast classes something akin to a distant counter skill is s good one. And a skill like that on modern taguel or Justine would go a ways towards improving the viability of the classes.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[Dark Holy Elf]

 

40 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

I don't think quickclaw was a bad skill...i think the problem was that the non-royal laguz were nerfed so badly in RD, all its potential users were bad regardless of whether or not you gave them the skill.

I dunno about that. RD Janaff, Ulki, and Volug were clearly better than any PoR non-royal laguz. The problem is definitely that Quickclaw and its ilk are entirely at odds with how you want to use laguz in that game; you want to reduce their ranged combat because it lowers their gauge without giving them a full attack back.

[Shadow Mir]

50 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

I don't think quickclaw was a bad skill...i think the problem was that the non-royal laguz were nerfed so badly in RD, all its potential users were bad regardless of whether or not you gave them the skill. Just imagine the silliness of quickclaw mordecai in PoR. The idea of giving the beast classes something akin to a distant counter skill is s good one. And a skill like that on modern taguel or Justine would go a ways towards improving the viability of the classes.

I can't agree with this - like I stated earlier, you needed to get hit for it to work, and it wasn't nearly reliable enough to make up for that. Especially since, like was stated earlier, letting them get attacked by ranged attacks meant the enemy gets free damage, and you lose transform gauge on top of that.

[starburst]

I have been following this thread because I decided to use Keaton and Velouria (Camilla's daughter) for my final party roster for the first time. I have an extra save before recruiting Keaton, in case an immediate re-class to Fighter (to get axe weapon rank soon) were a better option. I am still unsure whether Hero, Berserker (or Wyvern Lord, from Camilla) suit them better than staying as Wolfskin.
Well, it seems that I will have various options to try during the weekend.

[joshcja]

4 hours ago, starburst said:

I have been following this thread because I decided to use Keaton and Velouria (Camilla's daughter) for my final party roster for the first time. I have an extra save before recruiting Keaton, in case an immediate re-class to Fighter (to get axe weapon rank soon) were a better option. I am still unsure whether Hero, Berserker (or Wyvern Lord, from Camilla) suit them better than staying as Wolfskin.
Well, it seems that I will have various options to try during the weekend.

Keaton's bases are absolute booty without a stone to boost them.

Velouria has pretty sick stats in any class.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

14 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Keaton's bases are absolute booty without a stone to boost them.

Velouria has pretty sick stats in any class.

Is Keaton base really bad enough that you can't fix it by giving him Charlotte and +2 Bronze Axe or something

[Shadow Mir]

On October 21, 2017 at 7:32 PM, Alastor15243 said:

Alright, if you're going to keep confidently overestimating the difficulty of things you obviously haven't seriously tried, then fine, I won't try to convince you any further, especially when it's barely on topic.

Good. I can't trust the lying tongue of someone who cockily overestimates the easiness of the stuff he defends. Ha!

[Alastor15243]

On 10/26/2017 at 11:23 AM, YouSquiddinMe said:

There are more arms scrolls than you'll ever need to get units out of E rank.

I know you dislike Berserkers, but it's still 100% a better class than wolfskin. If you deny that, you're being contrarian for the sake of it. Berserker is just better than Wolfskin. Enemy criticals won't happen to good players, but wolfskin being bad is an inescapable feature of the class itself.

That's my point - having good 2 range is hard to come by and as such it's very valuable. Wolfskin and other beast classes have zero access to it and can never gain any access to it, where most other classes can (granted Axe 2 range is still suboptimal, at least it's present).

Non-doubling 1-2 range is pretty much pointless, frankly. I don't see how that of all things is what puts berserkers above wolfskins. You're pretty much never going to be in a situation where you'll kill more units on enemy phase with a single-attack 1-2 range weapon than with a normal doubling melee one. And if leaving a bunch of wounded enemies to pick off on player phase is the benefit, I hardly see how that makes a difference unless you're fielding a ton of units who can't orko, which would be... odd. I personally find dynamic defense and near immunity to critical hits far more useful than hand axes. And as someone who does a bunch of ironman runs, having a non-zero enemy crit rate is a pretty major dealbreaker for me, and it basically renders a unit unfit for enemy phase personally, rendering the hand axe "benefit" for berserkers even less practical. That's why I gave up on Arthur. I tried to make Arthur work, I really did. But his terrible luck makes him unusable as an enemy phase unit and he's too slow to be a worthwhile player phase one.

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Alastor15243

[Shadow Mir]

On October 26, 2017 at 12:13 PM, joshcja said:

Posts like this make me wish SF had a "like post" button.

You know what I find utterly hilarious about this? The post you're quoting makes the guy who posted it not look anywhere near as intelligent as you think... But you'd fail to realize that because not unlike him, you can't see the forest for the trees.

[joshcja]

4 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Is Keaton base really bad enough that you can't fix it by giving him Charlotte and +2 Bronze Axe or something

Wolfskin+beastsone gives him like +10 in every stat. His actual bases make ch8 Odin look buff by comparison.

@Alastor15243 Zerks flat one shot things with a forged hand axe when damage stacked. That said any other use is icing on the cake. You use zerks for one reason, the highest flat single target damage in the game. Stacked brave axe zerk orkos lunatic takumi with no proc or crit every time.

Edited October 28, 2017 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

2 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Wolfskin+beastsone gives him like +10 in every stat. His actual bases make ch8 Odin look buff by comparison.

What kind of BS is this supposed to be? 

[Alastor15243]

14 minutes ago, joshcja said:

 

@Alastor15243 Zerks flat one shot things with a forged hand axe when damage stacked. That said any other use is icing on the cake. You use zerks for one reason, the highest flat single target damage in the game. Stacked brave axe zerk orkos lunatic takumi with no proc or crit every time.

What sort of forge? Are you talking a +3? From what I gather that's the highest forge you can get on a hand axe in conquest since it can't be purchased infinitely. And what sorts of damage stacks?

[Shadow Mir]

3 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

What sort of forge? Are you talking a +3? From what I gather that's the highest forge you can get on a hand axe in conquest since it can't be purchased infinitely. And what sorts of damage stacks?

Aside from that, I frankly see forging related arguments as grasping at straws since you can't count on having the right resources, and it ain't like money is that plentiful either.

[De Geso]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You know what I find utterly hilarious about this? The post you're quoting makes the guy who posted it not look anywhere near as intelligent as you think... But you'd fail to realize that because not unlike him, you can't see the forest for the trees.

"If I use idioms that don't make any sense in context I'll look smart!"

Come on, dude. Just look at the numbers that you have seen over and over and over, and really look at them with an open mind. It is a hard fact that berserkers facing crit is a non-issue in a properly played run of Conquest.

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Non-doubling 1-2 range is pretty much pointless, frankly. I don't see how that of all things is what puts berserkers above wolfskins. You're pretty much never going to be in a situation where you'll kill more units on enemy phase with a single-attack 1-2 range weapon than with a normal doubling melee one. And if leaving a bunch of wounded enemies to pick off on player phase is the benefit, I hardly see how that makes a difference unless you're fielding a ton of units who can't orko, which would be... odd. I personally find dynamic defense and near immunity to critical hits far more useful than hand axes. And as someone who does a bunch of ironman runs, having a non-zero enemy crit rate is a pretty major dealbreaker for me, and it basically renders a unit unfit for enemy phase personally, rendering the hand axe "benefit" for berserkers even less practical. That's why I gave up on Arthur. I tried to make Arthur work, I really did. But his terrible luck makes him unusable as an enemy phase unit and he's too slow to be a worthwhile player phase one.

 

You're arguing based on personal experience and preference, don't do that. As @joshcja said, buff stacking makes hand axes really good. Berserkers have such fat damage that they don't always need to double. Buff stacking includes rallies, tonics, meals, pairup, etc. It's good, so good that playing Conquest without it makes it infinitely more difficult.