Should Brawl be Re-made

[Destiny Hero]

Yes. More characters, Stages, and Items.

The physics are fine. Certain things like Snake Dashing should be taken out, though. The absolute last thing this game needs is Melee's physics >____________________>

[Rehab]

anime faaaaaaace

I once shield dropped a grenade, snake dashed at some guy and picked up the grenade in the same dash attack, hit him up and threw the grenade at him. That was fun.

I think we could use less characters and more play variety.

[Kiba]

anime faaaaaaace

I once shield dropped a grenade, snake dashed at some guy and picked up the grenade in the same dash attack, hit him up and threw the grenade at him. That was fun.

I think we could use less characters and more play variety.

no I think more characters might be a good idea, but I do agree that what we need most of all is more play variety

[_____]

More unlockable characters would be nice (seriously, like 3/4 of the cast was the starting roster), but it doesn't merit a remake.

[Rehab]

I wouldn't say a roster of 40ish characters in one game that are all valid characters on their own is impossible, but it's not totally reasonable, and I would be willing to sacrifice some spots for better play.

[Icon of Sin]

To be honest, I'd like less characters.

Take the SSB crew, add in Dedede, Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, Ganondorf for sure, then maybe Ninten, Falco, Ridley, Wario and Samurai Goroh and we're set.

Then again I live in the past so sue me :P

Edited December 11, 2008 by Captain Falcon

[Zeldafreak007]

I never liked using Roy, but the game just doesn't seem right without him..

[microwavefriendly]

I wouldn't say a roster of 40ish characters in one game that are all valid characters on their own is impossible, but it's not totally reasonable, and I would be willing to sacrifice some spots for better play.

i think it is fairly possible, and reasonable, to have a cast of forty characters who behave differently. As much as i hate the concept of Lucas being eerily similar to Ness, there are a lot of differences between the two, Lucas having a much stronger A attack style that does promote different style of play from Ness. I wish there were more to there difference than that, but i can understand a certain level of similarity since they represent a similar character "type" in different games.

But Fox and Falco have too similar style of attacks, fast and rapid attacks.

Then you get characters like Captain Falcon and Ganondorf who have the same moves. That doesn't even make sense. Ganondorf, in some form, has been in more games than his "clone" and has been existing for a longer time. And the obvious difference between their games warrants different move sets. Ganon is strong, true, but he has always had some kind of magic. I feel that they never actually saw/played a fight against Ganondorf/Ganon in any Zelda game.

i think forty characters is enough, they just need different kinds of characters. And pay more respect to Nintendo than putting Solid Snake in the game. I think he's cool..in his own game because that's why he is cool.

I like Brawl a lot, don't get me wrong. But i feel that Brawl does not live up to the hype nor the potential the series has. I do want another one, though i doubt such a thing will occur any time soon. And i am fine with that if they take their time and do things right.

[Krevin]

i think it is fairly possible, and reasonable, to have a cast of forty characters who behave differently. As much as i hate the concept of Lucas being eerily similar to Ness, there are a lot of differences between the two, Lucas having a much stronger A attack style that does promote different style of play from Ness. I wish there were more to there difference than that, but i can understand a certain level of similarity since they represent a similar character "type" in different games.

But Fox and Falco have too similar style of attacks, fast and rapid attacks.

Then you get characters like Captain Falcon and Ganondorf who have the same moves. That doesn't even make sense. Ganondorf, in some form, has been in more games than his "clone" and has been existing for a longer time. And the obvious difference between their games warrants different move sets. Ganon is strong, true, but he has always had some kind of magic. I feel that they never actually saw/played a fight against Ganondorf/Ganon in any Zelda game.

i think forty characters is enough, they just need different kinds of characters. And pay more respect to Nintendo than putting Solid Snake in the game. I think he's cool..in his own game because that's why he is cool.

I like Brawl a lot, don't get me wrong. But i feel that Brawl does not live up to the hype nor the potential the series has. I do want another one, though i doubt such a thing will occur any time soon. And i am fine with that if they take their time and do things right.

The only similarity between Lucas and Ness is their uair.

Lucas has a tether recovery, Ness doesn't.

Lucas has a tether grab, Ness doesn't.

Lucas can infinite-grab Lucas, Ness, and Pikachu IIRC.

Ness' second jump is higher than Lucas'.

Lucas' PK Thunder goes through enemies with direct contact, Ness' PK Thunder stops if the ball-point hits an enemy.

Ness' PKT2 is broken as hell, Lucas' isn't.

Lucas' PK Freeze does just that, freezes the enemy. Ness' PK Flash doesn't freeze the enemy.

Lucas' PK Fire goes straight forwards and shotguns. Ness' PK Fire angles down (even more so from the air) and releases a burner.

Lucas' Psi Sheild is deployed in front of him, and can be used as an attack. It also can heal against Pikachu's Thunder. Ness' Psi Sheikd is over himself, and can't attack, and last I checked Ness still gets hurt from Pikachu's Thunder.

Ness' Usmash is a stupid Yo-Yo, Lucas' Usmash is a high priority low-damage killer.

Ness' Fsmash is a baseball bat, Lucas' Fsmash is a stick.

Ness' Dsmash is a stupid Yo-Yo, Lucas' Dsmash is high priority recovery breaker.

Ness' Utilt has low priority and isn't quite fast enough for a utilt, Lucas' has high priority and speed.

Ness' Ftilt is probably him kicking forwards or something, I don't remember. Lucas' is a quick, high-priority slap

Ness' dtilt is a kick with decent speed. Lucas' dtilt is a kick with high speed.

Ness' dair is a lightning-kick meteor. Lucas' dair is a triple attack with the potential to meteor.

Ness' nair is a stupid spin with his arms flailing around. Lucas' nair is a useful spin that is cooler than you.

Their uairs are too similar to compare.

Ness' bair is a lightning-kick. Lucas' bair is a meteor thats hard to land.

Ness' fair is some sort of magic thingy, Lucas' fair is some sort of magic kick thingy.

Captain Falcon and Ganondorf don't have the same moveset. Sakurai already said he took out the clones ;)

Even in Melee, the animations were the only identicality. All their attacks had different strength, hitboxes, priority, knockback, and speed.

[Rehab]

I don't even mean clone characters. I mean more unique styles of play between all of them. I think most characters fall into relatively simple categories of "camp hard," "aerial wall of pain" or "hope the other guy screws up because you can't really do either." There's the odd exception like the Ice Climbers, but most characters don't play that differently.

[_____]

But Fox and Falco have too similar style of attacks, fast and rapid attacks.

Ganondorf, in some form, has been in more games than his "clone" and has been existing for a longer time.

Two things that I picked out that I would like to respond to.

1.) Falco doesn't rely on fast and rapid attacks at all. :/ Also, Meta Knight focuses on fast and rapid attacks. Fox = Meta Knight?

2.) Captain Falcon has _starred_ in 9 F-Zero games. Ganon has only appeared in 7 games, where he was the main villain (If it was just Ganondorf, it'd be way less).

[Krevin]

Yeah, almost everybody seems to follow the generic smash-character archetype. I like how they added Ivysaur, Diddy, and Zamus to change that, though. In Melee, it seemed like Peach and ICs were the only remotely abnormal characters.

[Killer Poleax]

They should just release downloadable content, patches, whatnot if they really want to improve Brawl. I'd rather they start on SSB4 than remake this game which is already pretty good as it is.

[dondon151]

Yeah, almost everybody seems to follow the generic smash-character archetype. I like how they added Ivysaur, Diddy, and Zamus to change that, though. In Melee, it seemed like Peach and ICs were the only remotely abnormal characters.

Define "generic smash-character archetype."

[Krevin]

Define "generic smash-character archetype."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/archetype

In short, all characters boil down to being Mario or Kirby with slight differences.

[Rei]

Uh, I don't see how everyone derived from Kirby or Mario in melee or 64.

[Clonez]

They shouldn't re-make Brawl. And they won't. They should just fix some of the "broken" stuff in later releases.

[Krevin]

Uh, I don't see how everyone derived from Kirby or Mario in melee or 64.

Perhaps I should be more specific: Kirby and Jigglypuff have multiple jumps and the speed and hitboxes of most of their attacks are shockingly similar (the animations are different, but that doesn't matter). For everyone else, its a simple 2-jumps, ^B is an attack thats not very useful except as a recovery move, >B is a decent ground attack and helps horizontal recovery, vB is an attack thats more of a defense feature than an offensive attack, dsmash has low hitboxes that hit on both sides, usmash is good to stop falling enemies or to use while running, but doesn't have much horizontal range, fsmash is your basic killing move with almost pure horizontal knockback, need I go on? There's not a lot of variation.

[dondon151]

Hey... nair is a move that can be used... in the air! Not a lot of variation! And like... 98% of moves have a hitbox! Fighting games have hitboxes! Smash follows the fighting game archetype with some differences :ingenious:

And even if what you said were true, Peach and ICs still follow the "generic smash archetype." You're almost implying that all characters can be played nearly exactly the same, which is obviously not true.

Edited December 18, 2008 by dondon151

[microwavefriendly]

The only similarity between Lucas and Ness is their uair.

Lucas has a tether recovery, Ness doesn't.

Lucas has a tether grab, Ness doesn't.

Lucas can infinite-grab Lucas, Ness, and Pikachu IIRC.

Ness' second jump is higher than Lucas'.

Lucas' PK Thunder goes through enemies with direct contact, Ness' PK Thunder stops if the ball-point hits an enemy.

Ness' PKT2 is broken as hell, Lucas' isn't.

Lucas' PK Freeze does just that, freezes the enemy. Ness' PK Flash doesn't freeze the enemy.

Lucas' PK Fire goes straight forwards and shotguns. Ness' PK Fire angles down (even more so from the air) and releases a burner.

Lucas' Psi Sheild is deployed in front of him, and can be used as an attack. It also can heal against Pikachu's Thunder. Ness' Psi Sheikd is over himself, and can't attack, and last I checked Ness still gets hurt from Pikachu's Thunder.

Ness' Usmash is a stupid Yo-Yo, Lucas' Usmash is a high priority low-damage killer.

Ness' Fsmash is a baseball bat, Lucas' Fsmash is a stick.

Ness' Dsmash is a stupid Yo-Yo, Lucas' Dsmash is high priority recovery breaker.

Ness' Utilt has low priority and isn't quite fast enough for a utilt, Lucas' has high priority and speed.

Ness' Ftilt is probably him kicking forwards or something, I don't remember. Lucas' is a quick, high-priority slap

Ness' dtilt is a kick with decent speed. Lucas' dtilt is a kick with high speed.

Ness' dair is a lightning-kick meteor. Lucas' dair is a triple attack with the potential to meteor.

Ness' nair is a stupid spin with his arms flailing around. Lucas' nair is a useful spin that is cooler than you.

Their uairs are too similar to compare.

Ness' bair is a lightning-kick. Lucas' bair is a meteor thats hard to land.

Ness' fair is some sort of magic thingy, Lucas' fair is some sort of magic kick thingy.

Captain Falcon and Ganondorf don't have the same moveset. Sakurai already said he took out the clones ;)

Even in Melee, the animations were the only identicality. All their attacks had different strength, hitboxes, priority, knockback, and speed.

Two things that I picked out that I would like to respond to.

1.) Falco doesn't rely on fast and rapid attacks at all. :/ Also, Meta Knight focuses on fast and rapid attacks. Fox = Meta Knight?

2.) Captain Falcon has _starred_ in 9 F-Zero games. Ganon has only appeared in 7 games, where he was the main villain (If it was just Ganondorf, it'd be way less).

for one, i play Brawl regularly, and often times a friend and i play a Ness vs. Lucas duel. I am fairly aware of the differences between the two characters. I don't need a list, nor should you really waste your time typing that out.

Meta-knight operates vastly differently from Fox/Falco...those two opperate by doing fast attacks that rack up damage, they are medium weights, pretty good melee range, and a ray gun attack.

yes, i know Fox/Falco have different moves, but the way they are played leads directly to the same style. I've played lots of people who play either of them and wolf), and they are the same style.

Meta-knight even looks different, and plays different, because his moves are done to make him a different character.

ummm....yeah...about C. Falcon and Ganondorf....i don't care. Most of their A-attacks are the same, and their B-s are the same, with the exception of the forward grab and a forward punch. It doesn't even make sense that those two have the same attacks, they have absolutely nothing in common!

9 F-Zero games?

3 were canceled, one was one an arcade system only. Which actually puts that total at six, still below the seven of Ganon/Ganondorf.

3 were gameboy advance games, and many of those games releases were glazed over by reception. Every Zelda game is well known, by gamers and in pop culture.

okay, aside from nay-saying, this is a dispute about game titles; it's about smash bros.

that's valid and i guess is why he appeared in he first Smash game. But whatever, there is no justification for Ganondorf to share the same move set as Falcon. They are the same attacks. okay, i don't care what you say about "animations only being the same" or hit boxes, they are both strong fists/elbows/kicks that, in fact, do look the exact same.

the only punch Ganondorf ever throws is the ground pound attack of his in Ocarina of Time.

you know what, whatever. this argument won't go anywhere. we're all too stubborn about opinions.

i'm done with this thread

[Krevin]

And even if what you said were true, Peach and ICs still follow the "generic smash archetype." You're almost implying that all characters can be played nearly exactly the same, which is obviously not true.

Not exactly, Peach's float allows her to use Aerials on the ground, and there are two Ice Climbers which makes them a completely different character than your standard, one person character.

for one, i play Brawl regularly, and often times a friend and i play a Ness vs. Lucas duel. I am fairly aware of the differences between the two characters. I don't need a list, nor should you really waste your time typing that out.

Well you said they were similar, I was proving my point that they're nothing alike.

Meta-knight operates vastly differently from Fox/Falco...those two opperate by doing fast attacks that rack up damage, they are medium weights, pretty good melee range, and a ray gun attack.

yes, i know Fox/Falco have different moves, but the way they are played leads directly to the same style. I've played lots of people who play either of them and wolf), and they are the same style.

Meta-knight even looks different, and plays different, because his moves are done to make him a different character.

You, sir, are an idiot.

MetaKnight opperates by doing fast attacks that rack up damage, weight doesn't effect a characters offense, MK's range is severely underrated, as his hand + sword reaches about as far as Fox or Falco's leg or arm. Fox and Falco aren't played the same at all: Falco uses his chaingrab -> dair whenever possible for a free kill, and otherwise plays by getting his opponent off ground to mess with them in the air. Fox doesn't have a chaingrab and his dair doesn't spike, and Fox doesn't constantly switch from his ground game to his air game like Falco does. If you think they're anything alike, get better at this game.

ummm....yeah...about C. Falcon and Ganondorf....i don't care. Most of their A-attacks are the same, and their B-s are the same, with the exception of the forward grab and a forward punch. It doesn't even make sense that those two have the same attacks, they have absolutely nothing in common!

...no

9 F-Zero games?

3 were canceled, one was one an arcade system only. Which actually puts that total at six, still below the seven of Ganon/Ganondorf.

3 were gameboy advance games, and many of those games releases were glazed over by reception. Every Zelda game is well known, by gamers and in pop culture.

okay, aside from nay-saying, this is a dispute about game titles; it's about smash bros.

that's valid and i guess is why he appeared in he first Smash game. But whatever, there is no justification for Ganondorf to share the same move set as Falcon. They are the same attacks. okay, i don't care what you say about "animations only being the same" or hit boxes, they are both strong fists/elbows/kicks that, in fact, do look the exact same.

the only punch Ganondorf ever throws is the ground pound attack of his in Ocarina of Time.

you know what, whatever. this argument won't go anywhere. we're all too stubborn about opinions.

i'm done with this thread

Captain Falcon is full of manliness, and Ganondorf is secretly his dad. Why not give them the same moveset?

No, but I do agree, Ganon's moveset doesn't make any sense. I've yet to see the Falcon Kick used in a final battle of TLOZ game.

[dondon151]

Not exactly, Peach's float allows her to use Aerials on the ground, and there are two Ice Climbers which makes them a completely different character than your standard, one person character.

Their smashes and aerials all have "generic" hitboxes and knockback, they each have two jumps, their throws have "generic" trajectory, etc. Peach and ICs are variations on a theme just like any other character.

I mean, it's pretty hard to imagine a non-archetypal character when the archetype is "has 2-5 jumps and hitboxes come out when it attacks."

[Krevin]

They're massive variants, though. And I never said that "hitboxes come out when it attacks" is an archetype, I said that the specifics of the hitboxes of most character's utilts, fsmashes, etc. were ultrasimilar. Desynched Ice Climbers are in no way typical, because you're hitting two locations at a time, and Peach can use her aerials in her ground-game, unlike the rest of the cast.

[dondon151]

Desynched ICs don't hit two locations at once unless one is using blizzard or squall hammer. Any character in the game can use an aerial close to the ground by short hop fast fall, and 3 characters can DJC to use aerials very close to the ground.

Saying that a Smash character is part of an archetype by the basis of general hitbox locations is like saying that a FE character is part of an archetype because it uses swords. And by a logical basis, the hitboxes have to be where they are; you're not going to make a dsmash some sort of anti-air move while a usmash makes more sense. Any character from a fighting game has his attacks mapped out the same way, so by your broad criteria every character in a fighting game belongs to the fighting game character archetype. And an archetype that encompasses everything is rather pointless.

I said that the specifics of the hitboxes of most character's utilts, fsmashes, etc. were ultrasimilar.

Ultrasimilar hitboxes does not explain, for example, why Marth's fsmash is better than Luigi's, or why Falco's dair is better than Sheik's, or why Fox's utilt is better than Peach's, or why Bowser's side B is better than DK's, etc.

Edited December 19, 2008 by dondon151

[Krevin]

why Fox's utilt is better than Peach's, or why Bowser's side B is better than DK's, etc.

Didn't feel like replying to the rest of the post because it's pretty pointless nigga you ignant

Anyways, I quoted the part that doesn't make sense. I'm not sure if we're talking Melee or Brawl, but it doesn't matter. In Melee (where Fox's utilt is better than Peach's), Bowser's side B is crap and DK's isn't. In Brawl (where Bowser's side B is better than DK's), Peach's utilt is massively overpowered and definitely better than Fox's.