What happened to the Binding Blade's 2 range?

[Jotari]

So Roy's sword, the Sword of Seals, or the Binding Blade, is one of the coolest weapons in the franchise, at least in my opinion. It turns Roy from a dead weight to a prenimum ass kicker. And I always thought that, by far, it's most distinctive feature was it's ability to set things on fire from afar. None of the previous legendary swords, Falchion, Tyrfring, Balmung etc had a ranged option. Swords in general didn't have many ranged options outside from the rare Light Brands and Levin Sword. But the Sword of Seals had a ranged option and it was awesome for it.

And then there's Roy's appearance in Smash Bros. where he lacks a ranged attack. Okay, at first he was a clone of Marth and his game hadn't even been released, so it was pretty understandable. But then years later he appeared again in Smash 4, and they went to all this effort to make his standard moveset different to Marth's, but they didn't change any of his specials, still no ranged attack line in his own game.

And then we got Heroes! Where every one and their mother got a sword with distant counter built into it, not Roy though (and not Zephiel too by the way). Nope, one of the best weapons in the series locks Roy to one range and just gives him a defense boost. It doesn't even kill dragons.

Okay, but maybe they just didn't want to give it Distant Counter in Heroes because so many weapons have it already. Maybe they thought they'd make it a bit more unique by focusing on the defense boost aspect (which it had in it's original game too).

AND THEN! We got his Amiibo appearance in Shadows of Valentia, which I haven't played (because I lack the Roy amiibo), but looking at the wiki, once again, no 1-2 range on the Binding Blade.

To me, the 1-2 range is the most distinctive feature of the Sword of Seals. But it's been continuously ignored in every single other appearance it's ever had...I probable care about this far more than I should.

[trunkynugget]

I understand not including the long range attacks in Smash since it would probably feel weird and out of place to people who haven't played FE6, but it really would have made sense in Heroes since so many other weapons have that effect. Maybe we'll get an Easter Roy next year with a 1-2 range Carrot of Seals?

[Armagon]

It bothers me to no end as well. Like, ok, i understand it in Smash. Flare Blade is one of the most powerful moves, being a guaranteed KO at full charge while also breaking shields and its pretty good for edgeguarding. Actually landing a fully-charged Flare Blade is a different matter but i understand why they didn't give him a ranged option, even if i did wish he got one.

There's no excuse for Heroes and SoV though. Actually, for the latter, does Ragnell have 1-2 range? If not, then i guess i can let it slide. But there's no excuse for Heroes. Ragnell gets a Distant Counter, why not the Binding Blade? It hasn't even gotten a weapon refinery option. I mean, i'm totally expecting a Legendary Roy (if it happens) to have a Binding Blade with Distant Counter but still, it just baffles me why OG Binding Blade didn't have 1-2 range. Especially when the only Distant Counters you had initially were Armads, Gradivus and Siegfried, the latter two being locked to GHBs.

2 minutes ago, trunkynugget said:

I understand not including the long range attacks in Smash since it would probably feel weird and out of place to people who haven't played FE6,

That's likely not the reason. If anything, having range would've actually been faithful to Roy.

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Armagon said:

There's no excuse for Heroes and SoV though. Actually, for the latter, does Ragnell have 1-2 range? If not, then i guess i can let it slide. But there's no excuse for Heroes. Ragnell gets a Distant Counter, why not the Binding Blade? It hasn't even gotten a weapon refinery option. I mean, i'm totally expecting a Legendary Roy (if it happens) to have a Binding Blade with Distant Counter but still, it just baffles me why OG Binding Blade didn't have 1-2 range. Especially when the only Distant Counters you had initially were Armads, Gradivus and Siegfried, the latter two being locked to GHBs.

In Echoes? No. In Heroes, it does have DC built in.

But you know, the Binding Blade not being able to do DC isn't all that bothers me. Why doesn't it also have the effect to hurt dragons? The weapon is stronger than all the Legendaries that are SUPPOSED to be supereffective against dragons.

[Magical Glace]

13 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Especially when the only Distant Counters you had initially were Armads, Gradivus and Siegfried, the latter two being locked to GHBs.

You forgot Raijinto and Lightning Breath/+.  Also, Armads doesn't have DC, Hector has it as an A skill.  Armads is Quick Riposte 2.

 

Yeah, I agree it's pretty odd.  Especially in Heroes, where it seems like the devs decided to jerk with FE6 specifically, since Eckesachs also lost its 1-2.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Glaceon Mage

[Armagon]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

In Echoes? No. In Heroes, it does have DC built in.

Yeah, i knew about Heroes but i just wasn't sure about Echoes. Since neither Ragnell nor the Binding Blade have 1-2 range in SoV, i can let it slide.

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Why doesn't it also have the effect to hurt dragons? The weapon is stronger than all the Legendaries that are SUPPOSED to be supereffective against dragons.

This as well. Obviously for balancing reasons, it'd have to be one or the other in Heroes but the fact that it has neither of it's signature traits and instead just has a Def buff (yes it did that in the actual games but that was it's least impressive thing) is annoying.

2 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

You forgot Raijinto and Lightning Breath/+.  Also, Armads doesn't have DC, Hector has it as an A skill.  Armads is Quick Riposte 2.

Oh whoops. Armads got me the most because Hector is so commonly associated with DC that i just assumed his weapon had it.

But still, launch day Heroes didn't have that many DC options. Only Lightning Breath/+ was easily obtainable, with Gradivus and Siegfried being GHBs and Camus hasn't had a re-run yet.

[Cysx]

I always interpreted it as them more or less actively making Roy consistently mediocre throughout his various apparitions, and the Binding blade, being tied to him, suffering from it. Why would they do that? Well I'm not sure, but... he's mediocre to bad in Melee, in Awakening, in Sm4sh, and in Heroes. It doesn't feel like much of a coincidence, especially in the latter two where balancing was more of a focus. He's probably at his best in SoV, but they're all pretty bad there. Overall he's like this character they feel the need to aknowledge, but don't want to make good, it's really weird.

I think him getting second place of the male bracket in CYL1 sort of took them by surprise however(it certainly surprised me), so they could treat him(and thus it) better in the future.

Or not.

[Slumber]

19 minutes ago, Cysx said:

I always interpreted it as them more or less actively making Roy consistently mediocre throughout his various apparitions, and the Binding blade, being tied to him, suffering from it. Why would they do that? Well I'm not sure, but... he's mediocre to bad in Melee, in Awakening, in Sm4sh, and in Heroes. It doesn't feel like much of a coincidence, especially in the latter two where balancing was more of a focus. He's probably at his best in SoV, but they're all pretty bad there. Overall he's like this character they feel the need to aknowledge, but don't want to make good, it's really weird.

I think him getting second place of the male bracket in CYL1 sort of took them by surprise however(it certainly surprised me), so they could treat him(and thus it) better in the future.

Or not.

If they're not Marth, Ike, or from Awakening/Fates, I don't think developers even recognize them as FE characters. I'm sure the Heroes developers were wondering why a palette-swapped Bleach character dominated the first female CYOL poll. 

Then here comes red-headed Marth, and everyone thinks "Hmm... What would a red headed Marth be?" and they promptly realize "Oh, he'd suck." 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Slumber

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, trunkynugget said:

I understand not including the long range attacks in Smash since it would probably feel weird and out of place to people who haven't played FE6, but it really would have made sense in Heroes since so many other weapons have that effect. Maybe we'll get an Easter Roy next year with a 1-2 range Carrot of Seals?

I don't think a long range attack on Roy would seem strange. He generated fire with half his attacks. For him to be able to throw fire from a distance seems like it'd be a natural part of those abilities.

[ping]

For Smash, keep in mind that Sakurai had no idea about Roy's actual character, or how he would appear in gameplay, since Roy did debut in Melee, after all. Everything about his SSBM incarnation is purely based on his design. I suppose the interview in question is more or less public knowledge around here, but I'll link it anyway. ;) The most relevant part:

Quote

Sakurai: When I first heard a description of Roy’s character, I felt he was a bit more energetic, had a bit more strength inside of him. So, in comparison to Marth, whose sword is stronger at the tip, I made Roy’s sword stronger near the hilt, which I felt made them feel very different. But I played Binding Blade, and he’s really not like that at all!

Interviewer: (laughs)

Sakurai: In terms of personality, he’s mostly the same as Marth. But in Melee, Roy is expressed as a very strong character because that’s how I envisioned him during the development phase. I just want to make it clear his representation in Melee is not because I didn’t understand his character (laughs).

 

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, ping said:

For Smash, keep in mind that Sakurai had no idea about Roy's actual character, or how he would appear in gameplay, since Roy did debut in Melee, after all. Everything about his SSBM incarnation is purely based on his design. I suppose the interview in question is more or less public knowledge around here, but I'll link it anyway. ;) The most relevant part:

 

Yeah, that's why I say in the OP that it was pretty understandable that he didn't have it in Melee. I had hoped they would have added it to his moveset in Smash 4 though, while they were trying to differenciate him from Marth anyway.

[Armagon]

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

It hasn't even gotten a weapon refinery option

Well, would you look at that. Maybe the Binding Blade can finally get DC or Dragon slaying damage. Please, IS.

[Cornguy]

He really should've had a ranged attack in Smash 4. When they corrected Ike's flame colors from Brawl to 4, I thought "Oh, they care!" Then Lucina ends up a Marth clone, despite knowing Aether, and sharing a fighting style with Chrom, who is regarded as a bit of a power>finesse fighter. So she probably should've been an Ike clone, and a quicker, weaker Ike would've been more interesting than a slightly different Marth. And I know she was originally planned as an alt costume for Marth, but you either should've stuck to that or gone in another direction entirely.

Anyway, when Roy was announced, the thought logically was "We already have a Marth clone, so Roy should either have his own moves, or at least be pretty tweaked from Marth's moveset." Nah. He got some unique A-moves, but all of his B-moves were left alone. You couldn't have just given us a small fire shockwave off of his neutral B? Ah well, complaining won't get me anything.

Hopefully the weapon refinery can finally give him some justice.

[Jotari]

I actually haven't trained a Roy in heroes (and that fact almost entirely has something to do with how non distinctive the Sword of Seals is, plus an over abundance of sword units), but it looks to me like a forged Silver Sword+ would be outright better than the Binding Blade until it gets a refinement of it's own. You can forge a Silver Sword to have 16 might and HP+5 and Def+4 stat boost. Compared to the Binding Blade, all you're losing is the +2 Res (or +2 Def if you want to make a Res forge), and what's more, the Silver Sword stat boosts apply on player phase and can actually be stacked with combat boosts as they boost the base stats (so fas as I understand things). One of the most OP weapons in the series is genuinely worse than the most basic, generic strong weapon in the series. If they wanted to reflect the originanl game, they should have made the Sword of Seals really powerful, but gave Roy crappy stats to compensate.

[Cysx]

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

Well, would you look at that. Maybe the Binding Blade can finally get DC or Dragon slaying damage. Please, IS.

Complaining does work. We need to tell everyone.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

3 hours ago, Armagon said:

Well, would you look at that. Maybe the Binding Blade can finally get DC or Dragon slaying damage. Please, IS.

I would hate it if only because theres another effect that is extremely overpowered in Heroes that works really well with the current effect of Binding blade lol

 

But the fact that its REFINEMENT instead of UPGRADE means Roy would have double dip on the old binding blades effect(which is actually really solid) with the new effect so its welcome

 

 

 

Also the problem with Binding Blade is that its such a combo platter weapon in the original game, having the effect of basically every Elibe Legendary and then double dipped, translating it into another game can be hard if its NOT meant to be overpowered. in heroes language, the weapon would have immunity, stats bonus, dragonslaying and distant counter which is completely ridiculous even for their current standard.

 

In Heroes Distant Counter is already stupidly common as a weapon traits, being found on Gradivus, and i believe theres an explanation for Dragon slaying not on B Blade already, which is along the lines of dragons being in a bad position back then, with the strongest offensive Red specifically killing Dragons on her weapon.

 

its kinda hard to believe that when current Dragons in FE have Breathe + Mixed hit bullshit but they used to be pretty weak

 

 

The other combo platter weapon in Fire emblem which is Book of Naga suffers just as badly and they have the EXACT SAME effect as Binding Blade with Dragon slayer. Except since its tied to a squishy mage, its real effect ended up being Dragon slayer only

Edited March 30, 2018 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

I would hate it if only because theres another effect that is extremely overpowered in Heroes that works really well with the current effect of Binding blade lol

 

But the fact that its REFINEMENT instead of UPGRADE means Roy would have double dip on the old binding blades effect(which is actually really solid) with the new effect so its welcome

Question is, should it get Distant Counter, or a Dragon Slaying effect? Or hey, if they want to ignore the most distinctive traits again, they could give him Renewal. You cn use the Binding Blade to restore health in came, though I can't imagine why anyone would as it only has 25 uses and you're probably better of killing whatever's trying to attack Roy.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Jotari

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Question is, should it get Distant Counter, or a Dragon Slaying effect? Or hey, if they want to ignore the most distinctive traits again, they could give him Renewal. You cn use the Binding Blade to restore health in came, though I can't imagine why anyone would as it only has 25 uses and you're probably better of killing whatever's trying to attack Roy.

They don't need to be an exact 1:1 of the source game

 

Sol Katti exists - a weapon known for being TOO HEAVY in the original game to a weapon that specifically enables doubling

FEH Hector.... is literally a pun. I won't make comments about how its a Quick Riposte on a weapon that is one of few that weights down Hector in FE7, because again, his entire design as a unit is literally a joke. I would admit the joke is pretty clever, but still one of the strongest unit in the entire game becomes that strong through the power of comedy. Good one IS, you got me there.

Durandal is the only one thats accurate, deathblow effect on a STR increasing weapon is 10/10

Mulagir did not have anything that suggest it should have an efficient match up against magical enemies.

I want to say Basilikos but, Basilikos had one thing going for them in pseudo consistency - its main weapon effect is just like Hauteclere another "high end Axe" in their source game that isn't a Legendary weapon by the context of the game's lore but close to it in term of gameplay

 

 

 

The only reason people complained about Binding Blade is because it sucks(the irony is its actually pretty good for release standard, along with Regal Blade). If Binding Blade originally something super stupid like Take 5 less damage and increase cooldown cycle by 1 when got hit, nobody would gives a shit because that effect is uber busted and its actually what i wanted from Binding Blade as it is

 

I mean Lyn's weapon isn't exactly the most well received either but her weapon effect scales really well with times, and even if they completely throw everything about original Lyn design to the trash bin in Heroes, the original Lyn design lives on - in Brave Roy. Lyn went from being a worse version of Bartre and Chrom into a solid Sword Lord after they fix the one thing that went wrong with original Sol Katti and addition of newer skills that make it works and theres nothing to say Roy couldn't work - Fjorm is basically what everyone wishes Roy is

Edited March 30, 2018 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Magical Glace]

1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

FEH Hector.... is literally a pun. I won't make comments about how its a Quick Riposte on a weapon that is one of few that weights down Hector in FE7, because again, his entire design as a unit is literally a joke. I would admit the joke is pretty clever, but still one of the strongest unit in the entire game becomes that strong through the power of comedy. Good one IS, you got me there.

Could you please explain the pun? It’s flown over my head for a year, and even now that you say its a pun I still don’t get it.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

16 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Could you please explain the pun? It’s flown over my head for a year, and even now that you say its a pun I still don’t get it.

The in-game description of FE7 Armads is "Ligtning-charged Axe" or in Japanese, the ephitet, according to wikia is "Axe of Heavenly Thunder"

 

Levin Blade was always named "Thunder Sword" in JP and its a 1-2 range weapon that inflicts Magic only damage. They later went on to create Bolt Axe which is the exact same thing but Axes. The theme of "Thunder = 1-2 range" is consistent this way

So the entire reason Hector have Distant Counter in Heroes, which have been the most iconic part of his worth as a unit, in form of A slot that seemingly comes out of nowhere was literally because the developer thinks the connection between "Axe of Heavenly THUNDER" and "THUNDER sword" is funny

 

 

also thunder affinity for how much that contributes

Edited March 30, 2018 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Magical Glace]

1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

The in-game description of FE7 Armads is "Ligtning-charged Axe" or in Japanese, the ephitet, according to wikia is "Axe of Heavenly Thunder"

 

Levin Blade was always named "Thunder Sword" in JP and its a 1-2 range weapon that inflicts Magic only damage. They later went on to create Bolt Axe which is the exact same thing but Axes. The theme of "Thunder = 1-2 range" is consistent this way

So the entire reason Hector have Distant Counter in Heroes, which have been the most iconic part of his worth as a unit, in form of A slot that seemingly comes out of nowhere was literally because the developer thinks the connection between "Axe of Heavenly THUNDER" and "THUNDER sword" is funny

 

 

also thunder affinity for how much that contributes

Oh, I thought you meant Quick Riposte (what Armads actually does) was somehow a pun.

Alright then.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

The in-game description of FE7 Armads is "Ligtning-charged Axe" or in Japanese, the ephitet, according to wikia is "Axe of Heavenly Thunder"

 

Levin Blade was always named "Thunder Sword" in JP and its a 1-2 range weapon that inflicts Magic only damage. They later went on to create Bolt Axe which is the exact same thing but Axes. The theme of "Thunder = 1-2 range" is consistent this way

So the entire reason Hector have Distant Counter in Heroes, which have been the most iconic part of his worth as a unit, in form of A slot that seemingly comes out of nowhere was literally because the developer thinks the connection between "Axe of Heavenly THUNDER" and "THUNDER sword" is funny

 

 

also thunder affinity for how much that contributes

And here was me thinking it was because he started the game with a Hand Axe.

[Jotari]

Binding Blade got it's upgrade. Dragon effectiveness...which is cool...but still no two range :( Makes it more unique than yet another distant counter weapon and is kind of more important for the narrative, but still.... :(