Training Mafia 3.0: Advanced - GAMEOVER

[Fable]

Makaze-Thinks he's above having to explain why he thinks the thing for some reason. Tried to engage him twice and he ignored me both times meanwhile he seemed content to push me anyway. Maybe biased but he seems more interested in bulldogging a lynch through than determining alignments. 

Evan-Thought the "why don't I have reads 5 minutes into the game" thing was weird but sure I can believe he plays like that. My problem then is I would think he would try harder to get reads but he hasn't which seems off to me. 

Vote:@Makaze

[Fable]

##Vote: @Makaze

[Fable]

Did I do it right? 

[RADicate]

2 minutes ago, Fable said:

Did I do it right? 

[Fable]

Also I think Athena is villagery but after last time I don't trust my read on him tbh. 

[Fable]

Also reminder that I play a lot differently than what I think typical site meta seems to be. 

I don't wall post and i don't live in my own little bubble. 

I need people to interact with me if you want me to do stuff. 

[Makaze]

1 hour ago, Fable said:

Makaze-Thinks he's above having to explain why he thinks the thing for some reason. Tried to engage him twice and he ignored me both times meanwhile he seemed content to push me anyway. Maybe biased but he seems more interested in bulldogging a lynch through than determining alignments. 

Evan-Thought the "why don't I have reads 5 minutes into the game" thing was weird but sure I can believe he plays like that. My problem then is I would think he would try harder to get reads but he hasn't which seems off to me. 

Vote:@Makaze

Eeeeh. I'm not sure "Why are you so obsessed with me?" and "It's interesting that Makaze is voting random people to see what happens" counts as trying to engage with me. Trying to undermine my influence, yes, but that is not the same thing as engaging. Even now, you haven't asked me anything specific about my reads on others or tried to understand my thought process. If you want to engage with me, you're going to have to show investigative spirit, or I'm going to ignore it, and get right to the heart of it. I don't think there is a heart of it when your questions themselves are dismissive. See: My response to Mackc2's useless questions and athena's counter question to me. Those were at least hinting at something that I could engage about.

Put some effort in.

1 hour ago, Fable said:

Also I think Athena is villagery but after last time I don't trust my read on him tbh. 

This post pings me as outright waffling and it is not possible to tell why he even mentioned athena other than athena has been a topic of discussion. He hasn't mentioned most other plays he has no reads on, so why mention this one that he explicitly has no reads on?

I don't like it tonally or for the content.

1 hour ago, Fable said:

Also reminder that I play a lot differently than what I think typical site meta seems to be. 

I don't wall post and i don't live in my own little bubble. 

I need people to interact with me if you want me to do stuff. 

I think what you are doing is plenty alignment indicative. If you don't like the reads it is getting, you need to improve your game on your own, preferably by finding mafia and outing your feelings in a way that is hard to retract.

[Fable]

Mak I straight up asked you to explain your read on me twice and you ignored me both times.

Don't pretend you care about my alignment. 

[Makaze]

1 hour ago, Rapier said:

Wait, so... uh, why did you vote someone you had no scumread on? That makes no sense.

Also, @Fenrir Aesir, did I answer your question wrt AIs?

 

-------------

Honestly, what the hell was page 5? EvanMan³’s posts made no sense at all and he dropped a vote on me out of nowhere. I don’t even know if I should ask him about it because it feels like lazy trolling. I sheep Fable hard about this thread making my head hurt.

 

I’m not liking Makaze’s interactions with Mack. The former did give me lazy vibes before when he made a RVS-worthy post on page 4, when we finally got out of RVS, and it wasn’t a strong indicative of alignment IMO, but later on he spends two pages in a back-and-forth with Mack and…. Doesn’t get anywhere with his line of questioning. This is the pinnacle of his justification for questioning Mack. I still don’t get where he wanted to get at or what his interactions with Mack provided to him reads-wise. How is determining whether Mack is being  intentionally lazy provide any alignment tell? How does it help scumhunting for Town in general?

 

 

@Fable

snips at Mack (and, to be fair, at a bunch of other players too, but this is the closest to him outing a read that I got back then) but I don’t see him pushing the later for it, nor pursuing his reads in any manner. He also accused Makaze of pointing others as wolf randomly but never pushed a case on him for it. Sometimes he chimes in to post something snarky that is not related to the game (or, at least, doesn’t bring anything concrete to the table for us to discuss), but that’s it. I’d like to see a more active stance from him, at the very least. No, don’t tell me  you got no reads because your snips show you do have opinions.

 

 

@Mackc2

if you "wanted to vote someone other than Evan", why did you spend so much time voting him instead of going for the person you claim you wanted to vote? Why did Makaze have to press you for you to switch, and why did you feel like switching at that specific time? I’d also like you to elaborate on how it makes Fenrir Aesir scummy in your opinion.

 

On Mackc2:

There is no way for me to read someone who says things like "I don't have anything strong enough to claim anyone is scum or town at the moment." That response makes me go WTF and I have no way to get a read off it, since it leaves no room for engagement. I eventually just gave up on trying to make him say something indicative because I felt that my questions would go in circles and decided to wait for him to do something on his own. I thought that would have been obvious when the last thing I said on the topic was:

"Beginning to think Mackc2 is just that bad at getting to the point and asking the right questions.

Or even answered the right questions..."

I realized just now I never explicitly said I was frustrated or dropping it, so sorry for leaving that out.

My stance on Mack is that I am frustrated that I can't get rise out of him and he is being lawyer like in his responses which would make me think he is being coached, but then I realized this is a mentor game so everyone is coaching.

In short, I tried to rattle him into doing something, but after failing, I am frustrated at his lack of reads. I am going to wait for him to generate them because I cannot read him tonally with the way he is going.

Rapier is town based on this post, I am getting strong vibes of actual thought process and solving from a "what are they doing and why" perspective.

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Fable said:

Mak I straight up asked you to explain your read on me twice and you ignored me both times.

Don't pretend you care about my alignment. 

I do care, I just believe it's Mafia.

Asking me to explain my read on you isn't helpful, and I have explained it to others. If you have any further questions, you can ask them, but I am not going to get into a broad thunderdome conversation when it looks like you just want a chance to defend yourself and aren't actually trying to understand why I am saying what I am saying for the sake of understanding.

i.e. you have the information you wanted, what is it you still want

[Fable]

And mak is already so far up his own ass he's impossible to talk to.

 

 

[Makaze]

22 hours ago, Mackc2 said:

I don't know what I want to hear from Evan. 
I picked Evan because the only thing he said on Athena was something from a couple pages back when Athena has posted plenty, I was curious why he has drawn a town read from actions that I have seen as NAI. 
If I had to lynch anyone it would be fenrir because as Rad pointed out he intentionally left out an important part of Athenas interactions that undermined his theory, and that is something I would consider scum indicative.
##Unvote 
##Vote @Fenrir Aesir

On what I never responded to:

This post was his only read, he posted it only after I prodded him, and the content is cautious. He is specifically avoiding anything approaching a strong stance and while it is not fun to read around, I can see this level of caution coming from town, and didn't see any questions that would help until he had a strong opinion he was sure about.

I am still scum leaning on this slot because the caution is extremely tilting, but I am trying not to read into what I can't read instead of what I can, since that was my goal going into this game.

[Makaze]

6 minutes ago, Fable said:

And mak is already so far up his own ass he's impossible to talk to.

What exactly are you expecting to happen if you keep mentioning me in the third person instead of asking me things?

Do you have any specific questions for me?

[Fable]

3 minutes ago, Makaze said:

What exactly are you expecting to happen if you keep mentioning me in the third person instead of asking me things?

Do you have any specific questions for me?

I DID ASK YOU THINGS AND YOU FUCKING IGNORED THEM 

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Fable said:

I DID ASK YOU THINGS AND YOU FUCKING IGNORED THEM 

Those things weren't specific!

Do you have any specific questions that have been answered by my other posts about my read on you?

[Fable]

"Ask me questions but I won't answer them if I don't want to"

Fucking done. 

[Makaze]

5 minutes ago, Fable said:

"Ask me questions but I won't answer them if I don't want to"

Fucking done. 

Uh dude

The question has been answered. I ignored you. I didn't ignore others when they asked it. Read my answers. If you still struggle to see how I came to my conclusions, come up with questions that won't leave me quoting old posts as the answer.

I'm hoping specific members reading this can see what I'm saying here at least

Perhaps @Rapier has some questions for me

[Makaze]

11 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Those things weren't specific!

Do you have any specific questions that have been answered by my other posts about my read on you?

I meant haven't here. Sorry

[Makaze]

Or @RADicate for that matter

[Mystic Arcanum]

:thumbsup: 

The site's been crashing for me every time I go to try and post, but it should be fixed now. Catch-up time.

[Mystic Arcanum]

Page 7:

@RADicate and @Makaze: I still think the townread being a pocket attempt is possible and that Athena voting him was a way of backtracking in response to Bartozio. Re: not initially mentioning the vote myself; I noticed it but was anticipating that Athena was about to further explain it because they were in the middle of a conversation with Rapier about it.

22 hours ago, Fable said:

I'll humor the lunacy for a second though. 

Mak you haven't actually provided any reasons, you've just said "lynch Fable" over and over like that's suppose to mean something. I asked earlier about it and you ignored me, RAD asked and you ignored him. This doesn't sound like someone trying to discern an alignment it sounds like someone trying to force a lynch through saying "No but trust me though". 

 What do you think of Makaze's questions earlier towards Mackc2 re: EMMM? Those to me seem like he's trying to discern Mack's alignment.

22 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Not quite on board with a Fable lynch. I don't see the point when he's only interacted with Makaze and no one else. I'd rather lynch someone else like Xnad for D1, since that'll give us an idea about Athena, Bart and Fenrir.

What do you learn about each of us from Xnad flipping town vs. his flipping scum, and which do you think is more likely right now? I dislike this juxtaposed with a later post you made:

18 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Now that I think about it, this is the exact same development from SF Mafia Mafia 5... Athena votes for someone mildly inactive on Day 1, and stops the pressure in one back and forth. Then Bart comes in to weigh in on that same person, and Athena sheeps Bart. Then Athena gets called out for both backing off quickly and sheeping Bart. And Athena was scum that game.

I don't really like using meta, and there's probably going to be much more compelling reasons for a D1 lynch later, but I'd be down to test this pattern lol.

because both posts feel like you're just passively offering your support for a wagon but not backing it up with any kind of pressure/voting/questioning. The last line of the second post also feels like you're trying to give yourself an out to avoid voting Athena.

@athena_57 how am I "ignoring game-relevant stuff you've posted" when I reference your questions towards Mack/Bart in the exact post your quoting? I made it clear when I initially expressed my suspicion on you that the post I was quoting was but one example. Re: Mack people have to leave for various reasons and in some cases may not see anything of meaning in a conversation (if I recall Mack had a comment specifically to something of this effect). Why would he need to post for the sake of making a post when so much of the game was dead? Re: how the game should have started RVS is a clear option but RVS doesn't explicitly involve reaching.

Regardless of whether your initial post was a joke or not, what I'm saying is that I think you said it was a joke in order to avoid having to continue the discussion.

You're also saying now that your vote on Xnad was for pressure, so what do you think of his reaction to it now that you've unvoted?

[RADicate]

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

Or @RADicate for that matter

I was personally acting under the assumption that most of your reads were soulreads/meta reads; as you called them soulreads when I inquired earlier. And you seem confindent in your gut which is fine by me; at least for now. But if your reads extend further beyond that (like how you explained the semi-meta read on fable) and you could expand that'd be fantastic. 

[RADicate]

3 hours ago, Rapier said:

 

how is Athena switching his vote later on an indicative that he “did not want to pocket xskrawkcabx” (https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/83798-training-mafia-30-interested-new-players-read-first-post-day-1/&do=findComment&comment=5244494)? If anything, from what we can draw from the chronology of events, what made Athena go back and vote him was Bart’s later interactions and ultimately agreeing with the logic that he presented for Jordan to be scum. Thus, it is entirely possible that Athena wanted to pocket him then, but chose otherwise when there was a change of plans.

 

My opinion is similar enough to Fenrir’s. When Jordan asked Athena where he wanted to get at with his line of reasoning, he simply replied to “ok, you read as town”, which is not a proper reply about his intentions. He dismissed him far too quickly, which was picked on by Bart later, which made Athena go back to Jordan and decide to sheep Bart into voting him. What Junk said is true, his approaches toward other members ultimately got nowhere and he had to be pressed by Bart to rethink about xdude and vote him again, for example.

I suppose its possible that athena used the bart vote as an attempt to backtrack and got called on it? And admittedly it was a possibility i hadnt considered to this point. After some thought though, I still think calling a townread in RVS to spark discussion or out of mild tonal townpings is probably more likely to happen than calling a townread in RVS in order to weak attempt pocket a player before backtracking on it? That's my interpretation anyways. 

[Mystic Arcanum]

Page 8:

18 hours ago, Junk said:

Satsuma is bothering me a bit. They said they would be up to lynch nadroj for "interactions" but we're fairly early into the game and now they seem to be throwing shade onto athena but not committing. I know makaze said the same thing about wanting to lynch fable for the day but at least they're voting fable i'm pretty sure. I was under the impression they're going to make a bigger post but these random tidbits without real commitment feels like he could be setting up voting options if need be. I guess they'd be slightly below athena

What did you think of fenrir's response to radicate saying that fenrir ignored your vote athena? You say he ignored your vote on nadraj but he does make a response to this later (to radicate) that I didn't see you address.  Radicate thinks fenrir genuinely didn't realize what your vote meant to his theory. What do you think about that?

I'm mindmelding with Junk regarding the thought process here (indicated in my thoughts on page 7) and so a lesser extent his earlier read on Athena which came around the time mine did, so I have  Junk as a townlean.

15 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

We're early in the game, but Xnad has already been the focus of discussion for four other players now. At this point, wouldn't you agree Xnad is a better option than Fable for a D1 info lynch if nothing else came up?

I just found the Athena thing kinda funny, and apparently I didn't remember it 100% accurately. I haven't weighed in on the actual point of contention, because I kinda want to see what Bart has to say following up on the vote he made.

Okay, but why not accompany either of these with a vote when you initially brought up the suspicions? Your vote wouldn't have been locked and with Athena in particular isn't that something you'd want to pressure? You did vote Athena shortly after this, but it doesn't seem connected to your initial issue with Athena (as you specifically ask about Makaze).

10 hours ago, Fable said:

Interesting that mak doesn't add the asterisk that last game was the only game he's ever played with me. 

Why bring this up? I'm assuming you think it affects your opinion on Makaze/his read on you, so how does it do so?

[Mystic Arcanum]

What do you y'all think of Xnad's response to Bartozio? It feels weirdly confident in a way I haven't seen from him as either alignment, but his post where he's like "actually I can see why you'd do this as scum" feels aggressive in a town way-I think if he were scum he'd be content to leave it at "I can't see why you'd do this as scum."