Tales of Arise officially revealed.

[Corrobin]

Also, just as a theory, Alphen, gameplay wise, will be like Luca from Tales of Innocence (you fairly normal Tales swordsman protagonist with a Fire focus with those staples like Infernal Torrent and Rising Phoenix) and Shionne seems to be in a bit of a Cheria-esque position (ranged attacks, healing magic and Thunder-based offensive magic).

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Best villain goes to ToX followed by ToS, though there is little competition. ToA has drywall with five underlings of varying quality, DotNW is a shattered bromance, ToV has no villains, and ToG is a pitiful mess of stupidity, pity, and oaths made at age ~10 under trees.

Villains are a pretty interesting aspect of Tales. It was one of the first rpg series to really put their teeth into the well intended extremist kind of villain. They do it so much that it probably would be the spoiler if the villain really was jut an evil lunatic. 

My favorite main villain would be the one from Symphonia. It could be because he's my first Tales villain but I think the game does a good job as portraying him as really tragic. A completely insane lunatic but in a way it makes him more tragic instead of less. 

Symphonia and Abyss make an interesting switch. The miniboss squad in Symphonia is kinda lacking while the Cardinals are really good. But when it comes to main villains Symphonia has the best and Abyss has the worst. The Tales series tries really hard to create sympathetic villains but Abyss wrote its antagonist as a straight villain, a complete scumbag with little redeeming qualities. There's definitely room for that except the narrative tries really hard to paint him as the sympathetic villain the series is known for and that just doesn't combine well with each other. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

41 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

The Cult of Yuri, in the legends it was called The Cult of 'Protagonist who is cool, badass, with an actual personality, instead of recycled puke'. 😛

Vesperia has a horrendous narrative.

• The first arc... did it even feel like a first arc? Compared to ToS, A, and X, it definitely ended on a smaller scale. Not inherently a bad thing, but SAX each had a banger of an arc ending.
• For the second arc was the betrayal necessary? It felt too short and too insignificant, that is was shoved in there b/c Tales must have a traitor.
• Even worse was the conceit that the second arc's villain was in any way someone you'd get emotionally invested in, the game seemed to sincerely think you would. They weren't, they were FE6 Pesky Nobles bad, generic and without anything of a cause worth commenting on.
• This left the 3rd arc's villain, who I actually liked, shortchanged and underdeveloped, with your reason to give them pathos told to you and poorly at that. 

Tales of Vesperia has Yuri, and thank goodness it does. It feels insulting to Yuri that he must be stuck with such a lackluster plot. He'll bear with it because he's used to life being a bit rough, but he deserves better. Yuri is the light, Yuri is the good, Yuri is the universal salvation. Yuri, Yuri and more Yuri! 

Remove Yuri, and ToV's narrative would collapse like a hot soufflé at the North Pole. Estelle is an agonizingly generic heroine for so pleasantly unorthodox a hero. Flynn can't hold up the story the same way he never shows proof of being able to reform the imperial knighthood and government like he says he will. The idea of Karol taking the lead is a funny parody idea, but the guilds are not developed well enough despite the Empire vs. Guilds idea being interesting on paper. Judith with the camera angles toyed with enough could in an alternative take on ToV where Yuri didn't exist become the main protagonist, with Estelle retaining her secondary protag position and Flynn as the third wheel. Honestly, I wouldn't mind two versions of ToV:

1. Judith-centric with the magic blastia-entelaxative mumbo jumbo taking the thematic center.
2. Yuri & Flynn with the blastia all shattered and set aside for a Reform Without vs. Reform Within thematic focus. It would be about a purely human conflict where Yuri becomes the Hero of the Guilds and Flynn becomes the Hero of the Empire. Add a little nuance by forcing Yuri to attempt reform within once he climbs to the heights of the guilds and has to work out its bad apple gels. Flynn could help Yuri of course by pinpointing attacks on the corrupt guilds, thereby he would in a way become a reform without-er.

 

41 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

You like Flynn ? Ewwww.
I dunno why, but I like most characters in Vesperia, except Karol, and Patty. Seriously, why are those kids there ? They add nothing.

Flynn's platonic bromance with Yuri is good. Association with Yuri has to remedy his shameless recycling of Guy's body, and the unrelated fact that Flynn never changes anything. Yuri proves right that might from without is the only thing that can start great change, its so lopsided and only Flynn's Notice Me Senpai lady lackey serves to show wrong with Yuri's way.

As for Patty, she only became a PC in the PS3 port. They tried to fit her in there, and it was had some success, but it wasn't perfect, she is still irrelevant to the main narrative. Karol at least serves as a representative for the Guild Union. Although both are bad in gameplay, everyone but Yuri and Flynn feel just too dang slow with the normal attacks and like I'd have to guzzle TP to do anything with them.

I wish Repede attacked faster, and that he had more of a backstory, albeit not a bad cliche one. I still don't get why Repede was invented, I like the playable dog, but I don't understand why he was added.

 

41 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Would've been better if he was still a jerk, simply more self aware and mature.

I would take that direction.

The jump from "I'm important do stuff for me!" to "I'm a pathetic, selfish little person who deserves no love and is nothing. I should do stuff to amend how bad I am, because I am bad-" Tear: "Luke acknowledging you've been wrong and worthless is fine, but you're wallowing in self-antipathy too much, get to actually helping", isn't necessarily for the better. Neither Luke is by any means likable, both can be annoying, but nowadays, I think Luke 1 is more refreshing than Luke 2&3, personally speaking.

 

19 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

My favorite main villain would be the one from Symphonia. It could be because he's my first Tales villain but I think the game does a good job as portraying him as really tragic. A completely insane lunatic but in a way it makes him more tragic instead of less. 

Symphonia and Abyss make an interesting switch. The miniboss squad in Symphonia is kinda lacking while the Cardinals are really good. But when it comes to main villains Symphonia has the best and Abyss has the worst.

I still harbor a lot of fondness for ToS's main villain, and laughed at a certain free DLC in one game because of it. ToX's might just better written without my first game bias.

Good point on ToS and ToA. The Desian Grand Cardinals are "villains of the day who die that day on an anime", being very simple and cartoonish who mostly die real fast. The God-Generals are strong on the whole.:

• Dis is comedic and a little bit sad in how much he wants his friend. 
• Arietta is a loli with monster taming, but you can genuinely feel sorry for her.
• Largo is more serious, and fits well into the overall narrative theme.
• Asch is well, Asch. Maybe a tad too Replicaaaaaaaaaaaa! for me, but he ain't bad.
• Sync is my favorite, so goodly pitiable.
• Legretta is the one stinker of the lot. I can't feel sorry for her, much because she shows too much sympathy for the main villain, who isn't worthy of it. I don't know her VA's name, but I know she gets typecasted into this sort of role, Hannit of Octopath Traveler and Einheria of Bravely Default both use her. Unfortunately Einheria was just as lacking. 

Each of these is also aligned with a playable character, even if Sync's attachment to his playable is thin and quickly shifts to another who already has an associated God-General. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Etrurian emperor]

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I still harbor a lot of fondness for ToS's main villain, and laughed at a certain free DLC in one game because of it. ToX's might just better written without my first game bias.

Tales is in desperate need of a Tales of Kharlan. Berseria is great and I'm glad we had it but I did find it weird the rather poorly receives Tales of Zesteria got a prequel while a tale connected to the popular Symphonia and with a prominent role for the ever popular Kratos got ignored. 

9 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Legretta is the one stinker of the lot. I can't feel sorry for her, much because she shows too much sympathy for the main villain, who isn't worthy of it. I don't know her VA's name, but I know she gets typecasted into this sort of role, Hannit of Octopath Traveler and Einheria of Bravely Default both use her. Unfortunately Einheria was just as lacking. 

That would make her the voice actress for Minerva too if I'm not mistaken. I always found Legretta a bit generic and indeed the weak link in the Cardinals. 

 

[Corrobin]

Just my quick thoughts on Tales games:

-Phantasia (and Destiny to a lesser extent) are still kind of a "wobbly first steps", but I think they're good for what they are.

-Eternia has some solid promise and interesting ideas, but it's still very much a simple game.

-Symphonia is a classic JRPG with some minor problems (lack of Free Run) but is still really enjoyable

-Abyss is on my list of one of the best PS2 RPGs of all time (up there with Shadow Hearts Covenant, .hack GU, and the Atelier Iris and Mana Khemia games).

-Vesperia has some really good ideas and a great cast, but sorta has problems (ditching it's unique ideas of vigilante justice for a simpler fossil fuel analog)

-Graces has problems, but I really think it has some fun ideas and cool parts that I like.

-Xillia is kinda rushed, but I appreciate it for what it is, and the combat is really fun.

-Xillia 2 is a lot more flawed, and Ludger is probably objectively the blandest and worst main protag in the series, but the combat is even more fun than Xillia 1, and it's nice to see how the victory of the previous games changed the world.

-Zestiria, Zestiria, Zestiria... there are plenty of big problems. Alisha's DLC was bad. The combat is messy. The plot has tons of holes. But I still defend it because I love the OST, the voice acting is great, and the cast has some really fun moments.

-Berseria is great. It fixes flaws with Zesteria's ideas, the characters are interesting, it's plot has some really strong points, and Magilou is the best, no questions asked.

-Dawn of the New World is bad, but, like Zestiria, I can see some good points (nuggets of potential, the greatness that is Tenebrae, and the OST).

[B.Leu]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Vesperia has a horrendous narrative.

• The first arc... did it even feel like a first arc? Compared to ToS, A, and X, it definitely ended on a smaller scale. Not inherently a bad thing, but SAX each had a banger of an arc ending.
• For the second arc was the betrayal necessary? It felt too short and too insignificant, that is was shoved in there b/c Tales must have a traitor.
• Even worse was the conceit that the second arc's villain was in any way someone you'd get emotionally invested in, the game seemed to sincerely think you would. They weren't, they were FE6 Pesky Nobles bad, generic and without anything of a cause worth commenting on.
• This left the 3rd arc's villain, who I actually liked, shortchanged and underdeveloped, with your reason to give them pathos told to you and poorly at that. 

Tales of Vesperia has Yuri, and thank goodness it does. It feels insulting to Yuri that he must be stuck with such a lackluster plot. He'll bear with it because he's used to life being a bit rough, but he deserves better. Yuri is the light, Yuri is the good, Yuri is the universal salvation. Yuri, Yuri and more Yuri! 

Remove Yuri, and ToV's narrative would collapse like a hot soufflé at the North Pole. Estelle is an agonizingly generic heroine for so pleasantly unorthodox a hero. Flynn can't hold up the story the same way he never shows proof of being able to reform the imperial knighthood and government like he says he will. The idea of Karol taking the lead is a funny parody idea, but the guilds are not developed well enough despite the Empire vs. Guilds idea being interesting on paper. Judith with the camera angles toyed with enough could in an alternative take on ToV where Yuri didn't exist become the main protagonist, with Estelle retaining her secondary protag position and Flynn as the third wheel. Honestly, I wouldn't mind two versions of ToV:

1. Judith-centric with the magic blastia-entelaxative mumbo jumbo taking the thematic center.
2. Yuri & Flynn with the blastia all shattered and set aside for a Reform Without vs. Reform Within thematic focus. It would be about a purely human conflict where Yuri becomes the Hero of the Guilds and Flynn becomes the Hero of the Empire. Add a little nuance by forcing Yuri to attempt reform within once he climbs to the heights of the guilds and has to work out its bad apple gels. Flynn could help Yuri of course by pinpointing attacks on the corrupt guilds, thereby he would in a way become a reform without-er.

You know, I was going to say that it wasn't bad, but well, they did quickly jumped into the wagon really fast didn't they ? The story was never that good even before they went ''poof', starting plot point about two ideal ? Who cares, here's your magical Cthulu with a moral about echology lol'.

Yuri is literally what brings the fresh meat to the plot, he ask the real questions, and actually do some shit that should be done. But I dunno, I suppose that killing people that do crimes and stuff is a terrible sins. Or respecting the laws is that important when faced with that. (obviously murder is bad, but you see what I mean.)
I did not understand the plot point of that fat pirate dude those name I forgot, that told Yuri he would end up the same as him, that didn't make any sense. Yuri killed, as he said himself, pure bastards who will restart doing bad shit. I fail to see the connexion.
Where Flynn, well, I like the idea of the relationship, but he is nothing but talk and literaly have everything career included, given to him.

Estelle, I think she had potential honestly. I have fondness for her as far as pwetty pwetty princess heroine go.

Yeah, but Karol... Karol's just a winny kid with a bad arc and bad gameplay. Compared to what happens to others...

Repede was probably added as the mascot. He certainly have a lot of personality and class, Unlike. All. Future. Mascots. Of the series. And Morgana. Screw Morgana.
Shoot, Vesperia even have a better mascot !
 

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I would take that direction.

The jump from "I'm important do stuff for me!" to "I'm a pathetic, selfish little person who deserves no love and is nothing. I should do stuff to amend how bad I am, because I am bad-" Tear: "Luke acknowledging you've been wrong and worthless is fine, but you're wallowing in self-antipathy too much, get to actually helping", isn't necessarily for the better. Neither Luke is by any means likable, both can be annoying, but nowadays, I think Luke 1 is more refreshing than Luke 2&3, personally speaking.

That's something that kind of make me laugh upon realizing it, but the team berate Luke for not thinking for himself, they don't give him any legit reasons, they don't practice what they preach, then Luke basically end up being dependant on the teams instead of Van. I know I'm willingly veiling myself, but it's funny to think of it like that. 😛

Luke still being a jerk would have opened a lot of doors of character development for everyone and their, because as a newly awakened Enlightened Jerkass, he would be more critical about things, asking the real questions, pointing  the elephants in the rooms. Jerkass Has a Point, you know the trope.
Of course, there's that one issue of keeping the team together somehow but I'd genuinely take a longer time to reforming the team over that haircut scene and those five minute of no team that come after.

Because the 'let's not talk about the obviously important stuffs' is strong in Abyss.

Largo is the best imo, best story, best design.
Sync is pretty trolly, like a masked Joker.
Which is more terrible friend to the other, Jade or Dist ? 😛
Asch is basically an edgelord. 😛

[Etrurian emperor]

I really liked part 1 and part 2 Luke. Jerk Luke could be fairly amusing in how rude he was and things like him immediately being nice to the helpless Ion made it clear there was plenty of good in him too. Likewise Luke snapping at poor Ion ends up signalling he takes a massive turn for the worse. There's a lot of terrible behavior but also enough innocence to ensure he's not completely unpleasant. 

Part 2 Luke is a very nice redemption arc with Luke turning into a far better person, rebuilding his self esteem and earning back the trust he lost. 

But part 3 Luke is....annoying. He keeps endlessly repeating how he's unworthy despite there no longer being any cause for him to keep saying it. Everyone has grown to like him, everyone has accepted him for what he is and he's more than redeemed himself. But he keeps bashing himself so....very...much! Its not unreasonable for him to have those issues but the plot would have benefited if he didn't say it again and again and again. 

[B.Leu]

9 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I really liked part 1 and part 2 Luke. Jerk Luke could be fairly amusing in how rude he was and things like him immediately being nice to the helpless Ion made it clear there was plenty of good in him too. Likewise Luke snapping at poor Ion ends up signalling he takes a massive turn for the worse. There's a lot of terrible behavior but also enough innocence to ensure he's not completely unpleasant. 

Part 2 Luke is a very nice redemption arc with Luke turning into a far better person, rebuilding his self esteem and earning back the trust he lost

Didn't he snap at Ion because he was worried and they took it badly ? I always thought it was the case, it's coherent with his tsundere tendencies.
I also believe that his innocence is a part of what make Luke good.

What bothers me is that trust goes both way, it's pretty clear that no one in this group trust one another.
They could have done something about that.

[Corrobin]

Tales team has gone on record to say that, despite the gameplay of that field area, the game is not open world.

Also, the theme is apparently "Inheritance and Evolution".

Edited November 24, 2019 by Corrobin

[eclipse]

On 11/21/2019 at 10:20 PM, B.Leu said:

It surprises me, because Symphonia is for me the best plot wise, because it uses the goold old days (trademark) typical journey to deconstruct it and do something original with it, and because it's theme of racism, well, they actually do something with it and use all the way in multiple direction, as. Unlike, certain, others, tales of, games. Looking at Abyss, Vesperia, and possibly Berseria. Not saying they're not fun, but plot wise, meh ish.

And Symphonia has a better cast of characters, like Zelos, just Zelos, even though that they could've done better and or more than Regal and Presea because those two stick a lot compared to the others, but shhhhh.

But boy, Symphonia did not age like fine wine.

Zelos was a breath of fresh air, as was Regal.  Everyone else left a bad taste in my mouth in some way, shape, or form (with Sheena being the most bearable of the rest).

Plot-wise, overthrowing the umpteenth corrupt Catholic church that didn't seem to make the world a better place was a trope that should've died by then.

Of the other games, I didn't appreciate beating up the church in Abyss, but at least they could justify their existence (the predestiny thing, which the world had to learn was a Bad Thing).  The villains (sans Van and maybe Dist) had a reason to be villains other than "screw you".  Berseria had a damn good reason for beating up the church, as the audience sees what happens when the church gets their way.

Here's hoping that Arise doesn't make a mess of things.  But it doesn't sound promising.

[Interdimensional Observer]

10 hours ago, eclipse said:

Plot-wise, overthrowing the umpteenth corrupt Catholic church that didn't seem to make the world a better place was a trope that should've died by then.

This was... *checks* two years after Final Fantasy X. Admittedly, that was four after FFTerrible. But point being, I would hesitate to use the word "zeitgeist" but the same something, be it a toxic gas leak that makes you atheist, I could see as lingering in the air of some all-valued "young adult" JRPG community. I would need evidence enough to fill an academically-reputable book to "confirm" this though.

Not to justify ToS's use of the cliche. And given this cliche continues to endure, how much can a "something of the moment" be used to justifiably explain the presence of Y, is open to argument.

ToA's Score Score Score! church came as worse to me. Could be first formative game bias of course. But:

• The Sylvarant church is blissfully ignorant it's a pawn of True Bad, and so is the Tethe'alla church. The only corrupt figure in either IIRC is a pope who is really evil to his daughter, a fingerling potato's skin in the whole of the plot. The real evil wears the stylish trappings of faith, but nothing more.
• Abyss on the other hand, the evil is embedded right in the church. It's one unsympathetic man, one so-so lackey who had good intentions but is otherwise mad, and their god-generals. These sit the ecclesiastical offices and do their bad dressed in blandest clothing. 

The distinction I draw one could completely brush aside as nonexistent. ToS True Bad uses church as a pawn, it is "ecclesiastical", not being at the surface level such that the True Bads can be seen on a daily basis by hundreds and thousands who know who they are, is utterly irrelevant. 

 

On 11/23/2019 at 3:57 AM, B.Leu said:

What bothers me is that trust goes both way, it's pretty clear that no one in this group trust one another.
They could have done something about that.

And they had no reason to not trust each other. Those without ulterior motives have nothing to hide and the others don't show any visible grounds to hide stuff from. As for those with ulterior motives, they should've wanted the others to trust them, since ulterior motives are always carried through better if you get people to trust you so you can play them more.

 

10 hours ago, Corrobin said:

Also, the theme is apparently "Inheritance and Evolution".

Let's take a glance at prior announced-in-advance Tales one-liner themes, doing a quick look to find their espoused "genre names":

• ToP- "Legendary RPG"
• ToD- "RPG of Destiny" 🙄
• ToE- "RPG of Eternity and Bonds"
• ToR- "RPG Where You Will be Reborn" (And apparently coexistence between different races, and "rebirthing" those relations.)
• ToS- "RPG That Resonates With You" (Shouldn't this be Abyss's?)
• ToL- "RPG Where Bonds Spin Legends"
• ToA- "To Know the Meaning of One's Birth RPG"
• ToT- "RPG That Awakens the Soul"
• ToI- "RPG to Tie Thoughts Together"
• ToV- "RPG to Enforce Justice" (Aw yeah!)
• ToH- "A Meeting Between Hearts RPG"
• ToG- "RPG to Know the Strength to Protect"
• ToX- "RPG of Unwavering Convictions"
• ToX2- "RPG Where Your Choices Spin the Future"
• ToZ- "RPG of Passion Lighting the World"
• ToB- "RPG of Discovering Your Own Reason to Live"

 

These are kinda funny. Reminds me of nengos/nianhaos- Japanese/Chinese era names.  

Edited November 24, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Corrobin]

I wonder what unique method we'll use to unlock new Artes. Will there be a tree or web where we learn skills? Will we just get them semi-randomly by using old Artes over and over? Get them at specific levels? Or something more unique like Eternia's Slash/Thrust and Punch/Kick levels, and the Craymel Cage? Or Grace's 'learn skills from Titles' system?
 

[B.Leu]

On 11/24/2019 at 7:10 AM, eclipse said:

Of the other games, I didn't appreciate beating up the church in Abyss, but at least they could justify their existence (the predestiny thing, which the world had to learn was a Bad Thing).  The villains (sans Van and maybe Dist) had a reason to be villains other than "screw you".  Berseria had a damn good reason for beating up the church, as the audience sees what happens when the church gets their way.

Yeah but after that they make it the good guys in the sequel and goes as far as trying to make us sympathize with them. Why the hell should I feel bad about Artorius and those probably incestuous-but-probably-no-I-just-said-it-because-it's-funny duo. They are assholes with a capital A. The number of time they try to portray Velvet as evil because of "underwhelming reasons X" is laughable.

Jrpg these days make things bigger than they actually are.

And I wonder what half of the character in the team are doing in the team, most of them have no place in this plot.

On 11/24/2019 at 3:45 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

And they had no reason to not trust each other. Those without ulterior motives have nothing to hide and the others don't show any visible grounds to hide stuff from. As for those with ulterior motives, they should've wanted the others to trust them, since ulterior motives are always carried through better if you get people to trust you so you can play them more.

And you would think that most of them, like Jade would know that, since you know, Jade, genius, troll, general and self proclaimed sociopath. 😛
It's one of the things that makes me think that Akzeriuth got pushed in the middle of the development, seriously, who thought it was a good idea.to let Luke alone Van ? Especially to help NPCs who're going to die anyways ? The team, including freaking Jade. Jade.

Edited November 25, 2019 by B.Leu

[eclipse]

On 11/24/2019 at 4:45 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

This was... *checks* two years after Final Fantasy X. Admittedly, that was four after FFTerrible. But point being, I would hesitate to use the word "zeitgeist" but the same something, be it a toxic gas leak that makes you atheist, I could see as lingering in the air of some all-valued "young adult" JRPG community. I would need evidence enough to fill an academically-reputable book to "confirm" this though.

Not to justify ToS's use of the cliche. And given this cliche continues to endure, how much can a "something of the moment" be used to justifiably explain the presence of Y, is open to argument.

ToA's Score Score Score! church came as worse to me. Could be first formative game bias of course. But:

• The Sylvarant church is blissfully ignorant it's a pawn of True Bad, and so is the Tethe'alla church. The only corrupt figure in either IIRC is a pope who is really evil to his daughter, a fingerling potato's skin in the whole of the plot. The real evil wears the stylish trappings of faith, but nothing more.
• Abyss on the other hand, the evil is embedded right in the church. It's one unsympathetic man, one so-so lackey who had good intentions but is otherwise mad, and their god-generals. These sit the ecclesiastical offices and do their bad dressed in blandest clothing. 

The distinction I draw one could completely brush aside as nonexistent. ToS True Bad uses church as a pawn, it is "ecclesiastical", not being at the surface level such that the True Bads can be seen on a daily basis by hundreds and thousands who know who they are, is utterly irrelevant.

The function of the church in ToA was the fact that the world thought their fates were foretold.  That's why some of the more screwed-up things happened (like Largo's backstory).  Was the world wrong?  Oh hell yes.  But it makes sense in the setting's context, hence why I can justify their existence.

I don't remember how ToS's church helped their society, other than being some religion-or-other.

31 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Yeah but after that they make it the good guys in the sequel and goes as far as trying to make us sympathize with them. Why the hell should I feel bad about Artorius and those probably incestuous-but-probably-no-I-just-said-it-because-it's-funny duo. They are assholes with a capital A. The number of time they try to portray Velvet as evil because of "underwhelming reasons X" is laughable.

Jrpg these days make things bigger than they actually are.

And I wonder what half of the character in the team are doing in the team, most of them have no place in this plot.

And you would think that most of them, like Jade would know that, since you know, Jade, genius, troll, general and self proclaimed sociopath. 😛
It's one of the things that makes me think that Akzeriuth got pushed in the middle of the development, seriously, who thought it was a good idea.to let Luke alone Van ? Especially to help NPCs who're going to die anyways ? The team, including freaking Jade. Jade.

That's why I have no problems with beating up the church in Berseria.  They had their function, and it was clearly malign.

I think Van wasn't seen as a villain at the time by the party.  That's why they left Luke and Van alone together.

[Etrurian emperor]

16 hours ago, B.Leu said:

Yeah but after that they make it the good guys in the sequel and goes as far as trying to make us sympathize with them. Why the hell should I feel bad about Artorius and those probably incestuous-but-probably-no-I-just-said-it-because-it's-funny duo. They are assholes with a capital A. The number of time they try to portray Velvet as evil because of "underwhelming reasons X" is laughable.

Depends on the church member I guess. Sympathizing with Theresa is easier. She joins you for a little while and makes a decent enough impression. She's somewhat sweet to Laphicet despite having enslaved him in the past and its made clear she does put Oscar far above whatever loyalty she might have to the church. Oscar lacks this time as a guest party member so he just remains a self righous prick who the plot says is somewhat noble but who only ever does evil stuff or defends them.

Artorius always struck me as Van but executed competently. He's prepared to stoop very low and he's ruthless about his plots but he never struck as an irredeemable jackass who never loved anyone. The two share a lot of similarities like being the leader of a church, similar clothing styles and having siblings on the other side of the conflict.  

Edited November 26, 2019 by Etrurian emperor

[B.Leu]

17 hours ago, eclipse said:

The function of the church in ToA was the fact that the world thought their fates were foretold.  That's why some of the more screwed-up things happened (like Largo's backstory).  Was the world wrong?  Oh hell yes.  But it makes sense in the setting's context, hence why I can justify their existence.

I don't remember how ToS's church helped their society, other than being some religion-or-other.

That's why I have no problems with beating up the church in Berseria.  They had their function, and it was clearly malign.

I think Van wasn't seen as a villain at the time by the party.  That's why they left Luke and Van alone together.

Everyone knew something was fishy about Van. Just no one wanted to talk about it. Which is why the party tearing Luke a new one for keeping things to himself is even dumber and hypocrite.
But one could make the case about them not seeing something like that big coming, but still.

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Depends on the church member I guess. Sympathizing with Theresa is easier. She joins you for a little while and makes a decent enough impression. She's somewhat sweet to Laphicet despite having enslaved him in the past and its made clear she does put Oscar far above whatever loyalty she might have to the church. Oscar lacks this time as a guest party member so he just remains a self righous prick who the plot says is somewhat noble but who only ever does evil stuff or defends them.

Artorius always struck me as Van but executed competently. He's prepared to stoop very low and he's ruthless about his plots but he never struck as an irredeemable jackass who never loved anyone. The two share a lot of similarities like being the leader of a church, similar clothing styles and having siblings on the other side of the conflict.  

I did not know that talking about and picking bugs for Laphi and doing the obligatory 'You're a demon and you're so evil Velvet' talk made a good impression. 😛
But I getcha, but to me it's the plot pushing it to our face and saying 'see see, she's not sooooo bad, like her like her', which the plot does a lot and doesn't endear her to me one bit.

Huh, never saw that about Van and Artorius, which I should make the comparison earlier since the plot is about freewill, interesting.
Still see him as an ass. His final line say it all to me.

Edited November 26, 2019 by B.Leu

[Corrobin]

Okay, I've been talking with some Tales of friends and theorizing, and we have some basic, not complicated theories:

-Alphen at game start is a simple (albeit amnesiac and cannot feel pain) slave on Dahna to Renans.

-He's being transported on a train when it gets attacked by Renan freedom fighters

-Shionne is also on the train, and she tries to use the chaos to escape. Her handlers try and grab her but she (and Alphen, who, after an accidental contact, realize that her curse doesn't work on him) escape.

-Shionne gives Alphen the sword

-They fight that fire monster who may or may not be Efreet?

[eclipse]

On 11/26/2019 at 2:38 AM, B.Leu said:

Everyone knew something was fishy about Van. Just no one wanted to talk about it. Which is why the party tearing Luke a new one for keeping things to himself is even dumber and hypocrite.
But one could make the case about them not seeing something like that big coming, but still.

The party's behavior towards Luke is a RL thing.  Not everyone can accept that the Big Bad is someone they looked up to/cared about.  It looks hypocritical because we, the audience, don't have that kind of history with Van - just some snippets before he showed his true colors as a bastard.

[Corrobin]

https://www.dualshockers.com/tales-of-arise-producer-interview/

[Corrobin]

Will Alphen be an amnesiac villain turned hero? A god or spirit? Secret royalty? A living weapon? An artificial human? A homunculus?