The Dawn Brigade

[Liz]

They're alright but playtime is definately they're main problem. There isn't enough exp to go around and you have to dump loads of bexp to make them good in part 4. I usually stick to the GMs cause they usually have a level lead on the DB and I don't feel like dumping bexp into them. Though some of them turn out amazing like Nolan, Edward, Zihark, Jill, and Aran but I usually stick to their GM counterparts. I'd like them a lot more if they got more experience in their chapters.

or more chapters.

i think with 2 or 3 more chapters, they would have been fine

but chapters with TONS of enemy units

[Killer Poleax]

or more chapters.

i think with 2 or 3 more chapters, they would have been fine

but chapters with TONS of enemy units

Yeah, there was a lot of potential there but sadly the devs didn't take advantage of it. Did you see all those prison camps they went to? They could've gained a lot of experience in part 1. I think they forgot that most of the DB starts in tier 1 and they need way more exp to make it to tier 3.

[sangosan]

I like the Dawn Brigade a lot. But they really suck at the beginning >_> And I hate the fact that most of them have a low base level, but you still get tons of EXP hogs. You have Sothe, Burger King, Nailah, Tauroneo and Muarim. Meh. And of course, they all leave after Part 1 (except Sothe who is not a meatshield after Part 1 anymore). >_> Of course you don't have to use them, but it still sucks.

[Warrior of Dawn]

The fact that you have to compensate for her lack of defense really shows how bad she is.

The stat-up items aren't just there for show.

No, Shinon rapes Leonardo. Shinon's stats are in every way superior, Leonardo's suck. He has no defense, average speed and strength, and starts out INCREDIBLY frail with god-awful ability to grow.

Shinon's stats are superior? I'm sorry, but if we're going to talk growth rates, Leo wins. Leo has Higher HP, Skill, Luck, and Res. Shinon has speed and defense. Leo has Lughnasadh to cope with his speed during parts 3+4, and the defense doesn't apply if you use them as archers.

No, but Jill fears everything else. Thunder Mages are in the minority of enemies that exist.

As Reikken said, Jill is more durable than Haar, but not quite has powerful. She gets a Brave Axe in Part 3. Win.

Not every S rank weapon needs using. She comes in 3-2 behind everyone, and she's not doing too hot in part I either.

If she comes in behind, the amount of Exp she gets simply for attacking is phenominal. If you get her near sage class, she is easily usable, after maybe a chapter of babying (heck, the greil mercenaries have chapters to spare). And I already said that she struggles Magic-Wise compared to Soren, but she makes up for that with nicely-balanced stats everywhere else.

Laura's useful in Part I because she's your only healer. You need to keep her heavily protected and abuse her a lot if you want her to become anything more useful than that, and she completely drags behind later on. Not to mention that every attack kills her because of her bases.

When do you expose Mist to the front lines? Healer's are not meant to be durable. Moulder in FE8 is the one exception to that rule. Otherwise, Yes, Laura is a pain to level up, paragon is the solution. (One level up every 5 or so turns? Very yes)

Bad bases, low movement. Next.

Like most of the Dawn Brigade, Meg is amazing if you put the effort in. And how are her bases "Bad?" They're amazing. It's just she's a low level.

The Dawn Brigade should have got waaay more chapters in Part 3. Then maybe they'd be noticed.

[sandmanccl]

Dawn Brigade units are among the best in the game for their specific class.

Edward ends the best out of any of the Trueblades, hands down.

Nolan is quite possibly the best unit in the game with the incredible stat caps for the class and his ridiculous overall gains. Roughly 4 stats a level up? Plus coming at a very low level to give you time to abuse bonus experience level ups? Plus a silver poleaxe that also grants +4 defense? I feel sorry for CGV and Fox both getting screwed with him every time because he's been plain awesome for me and my brother every time.

Leonardo is pretty much in the same boat. Level-equivalent, he's like 4 speed behind Shinon (so he's actually +1 with his Lugnasadh), and it's incredibly easy to stat-fix him through bonus experience due to his Skill, HP, Luck, and Resistance capping before he hits level 10 in tier 2.

Laura has ridiculous gains and is the only other Level 1 unit in the entire game along with Micaiah, meaning if you do manage to raise her up, she'll be unstoppable.

Volug is probably the best non-royal laguz in the game (great availability, awesome stats, and Wolves and Lions (all one of each) are better than the rest of the beast laguz).

Micaiah is amazing, and required, so if she sucks for you, then it's your own fault for not using her. Same goes for Sothe (except he's merely pretty good rather than amazing.)

Jill end-games the best out of any of the fliers in the game.

Fiona end-games better than any other mounted unit. Total bitch to raise up but she outclasses the other silver knights hands-down if you manage to catch her up. Meg's kind of in the same boat except she's quite a bit easier to raise up at the expense of being a slightly useless class during the last 3 maps of the game.

Aran is made out of titanium alloy. 75% strength and defense is totally win. His defense is usually so good it won't matter if enemies double him because he won't be taking a whole lot of damage.

Who else am I missing? Zihark. I think he kind of sucks, to be honest. Terrible gains, takes too long to get his supports up, and he's useless without that extra dodge because his luck is atrocious.

Tauroneo counts as DB too, in my eyes. He's pretty great because if he drops to 50% HP, he's invincible and extremely fast. Resolve is totally hax.

[Knife]

Usable? Yes. Incredible? No.

[Warrior of Dawn]

Dawn Brigade units are among the best in the game for their specific class.

Edward ends the best out of any of the Trueblades, hands down.

Nolan is quite possibly the best unit in the game with the incredible stat caps for the class and his ridiculous overall gains. Roughly 4 stats a level up? Plus coming at a very low level to give you time to abuse bonus experience level ups? Plus a silver poleaxe that also grants +4 defense? I feel sorry for CGV and Fox both getting screwed with him every time because he's been plain awesome for me and my brother every time.

Leonardo is pretty much in the same boat. Level-equivalent, he's like 4 speed behind Shinon (so he's actually +1 with his Lugnasadh), and it's incredibly easy to stat-fix him through bonus experience due to his Skill, HP, Luck, and Resistance capping before he hits level 10 in tier 2.

Laura has ridiculous gains and is the only other Level 1 unit in the entire game along with Micaiah, meaning if you do manage to raise her up, she'll be unstoppable.

Volug is probably the best non-royal laguz in the game (great availability, awesome stats, and Wolves and Lions (all one of each) are better than the rest of the beast laguz).

Micaiah is amazing, and required, so if she sucks for you, then it's your own fault for not using her. Same goes for Sothe (except he's merely pretty good rather than amazing.)

Jill end-games the best out of any of the fliers in the game.

Fiona end-games better than any other mounted unit. Total bitch to raise up but she outclasses the other silver knights hands-down if you manage to catch her up. Meg's kind of in the same boat except she's quite a bit easier to raise up at the expense of being a slightly useless class during the last 3 maps of the game.

Aran is made out of titanium alloy. 75% strength and defense is totally win. His defense is usually so good it won't matter if enemies double him because he won't be taking a whole lot of damage.

Who else am I missing? Zihark. I think he kind of sucks, to be honest. Terrible gains, takes too long to get his supports up, and he's useless without that extra dodge because his luck is atrocious.

Tauroneo counts as DB too, in my eyes. He's pretty great because if he drops to 50% HP, he's invincible and extremely fast. Resolve is totally hax.

Yay! Somone agrees!

Edward is amazing. Amazing Str, Skill, Spd and Luck on a Trueblade? No competition.

Nolan likes to get strength screwed for me :( I use him anyway. He still doesn't dissapoint.

Am I the only one who despises Shinon? Rolf and Leo > Shinon

Laura = best saint. The males suck, although Oliver's worth using because...it's Oliver.

Volug I have yet to form an opinion on :/

Fiona's starting conditions are too poor for me to use her most of the time.

Aran = Lance General + 1 movement.

Zihark...Not as good as Edward (Who is?), but a decent enough unit.

Tauroneo is the greatest Marshall due to free Resolve. The more battered he gets, the more battered you get!

[Kintenbo]

Shinon's stats are superior? I'm sorry, but if we're going to talk growth rates, Leo wins. Leo has Higher HP, Skill, Luck, and Res. Shinon has speed and defense. Leo has Lughnasadh to cope with his speed during parts 3+4, and the defense doesn't apply if you use them as archers.

What about the bases? Leonardo may have a better HP growth, but his base HP is 17, which is rather grotesque for his level. Besides, it's only 10% more, while Shinon starts with 43 HP, which will probably be much more than what Leonardo would have when he gets to level 13, himself. HP growth lead doesn't mean much if your HP is dreadful. As for Skill, Leonardo only has a 5% growth lead. Both are going to be Skill machines, but Shinon starts out with 28 Skill vs. Leonardo's 12. Well, obviously 12 is good for Leornardo's joining time, but whatever. Both are Skill excellers. Luck, whoohoo luck. Sure, his luck growth beat Shinon's by 35, and will be clearly higher if he ever makes to Shinon's base level, but who cares about luck? Resistance, yeah, another 35% lead, and he WILL have better resistance, but that doesn't overturn Shinon's advantages. At least Shinon still has passable resistance.

Defense, oh, it does matter. What of other archers? Would you rather have Leonardo go into a pit of high damaging archers, or Shinon? Your folks can't play bodyguard all the time, so you'll need an archer with some meat to him. Shinon is the best candidate. Strength, sure, growth is the exact same, but Shinon starts out with solid strength.

All and all, even if Leonardo would muster better stats in some areas, Shinon is many levels ahead.

[Saint Nightroad]

Dawn Brigade units are among the best in the game for their specific class.

Edward ends the best out of any of the Trueblades, hands down.

Nolan is quite possibly the best unit in the game with the incredible stat caps for the class and his ridiculous overall gains. Roughly 4 stats a level up? Plus coming at a very low level to give you time to abuse bonus experience level ups? Plus a silver poleaxe that also grants +4 defense? I feel sorry for CGV and Fox both getting screwed with him every time because he's been plain awesome for me and my brother every time.

Leonardo is pretty much in the same boat. Level-equivalent, he's like 4 speed behind Shinon (so he's actually +1 with his Lugnasadh), and it's incredibly easy to stat-fix him through bonus experience due to his Skill, HP, Luck, and Resistance capping before he hits level 10 in tier 2.

Laura has ridiculous gains and is the only other Level 1 unit in the entire game along with Micaiah, meaning if you do manage to raise her up, she'll be unstoppable.

Volug is probably the best non-royal laguz in the game (great availability, awesome stats, and Wolves and Lions (all one of each) are better than the rest of the beast laguz).

Micaiah is amazing, and required, so if she sucks for you, then it's your own fault for not using her. Same goes for Sothe (except he's merely pretty good rather than amazing.)

Jill end-games the best out of any of the fliers in the game.

Fiona end-games better than any other mounted unit. Total bitch to raise up but she outclasses the other silver knights hands-down if you manage to catch her up. Meg's kind of in the same boat except she's quite a bit easier to raise up at the expense of being a slightly useless class during the last 3 maps of the game.

Aran is made out of titanium alloy. 75% strength and defense is totally win. His defense is usually so good it won't matter if enemies double him because he won't be taking a whole lot of damage.

Who else am I missing? Zihark. I think he kind of sucks, to be honest. Terrible gains, takes too long to get his supports up, and he's useless without that extra dodge because his luck is atrocious.

Tauroneo counts as DB too, in my eyes. He's pretty great because if he drops to 50% HP, he's invincible and extremely fast. Resolve is totally hax.

IMO, Mia is the best Trueblade in the game. Why? Her stats end up about as good as Edwards (in my experience, usually better). She is the Trueblade for the Greil Mercenaries, meaning that she will have no trouble leveling and is probably the most playable member of her class.

Fiona is horrible... she appears at a bad level with bad bases to a group that needs experience badly... now if she joined at levels 1-2 then yes, she might be okay.

Meg is a bit underated but with good reason.

Haar>Jill

Lol @ Failnardo.

If Laura wasn't a healer, then she would have no purpose. She fails.

Micaiah is far from amazing. She practically gets forced into the healing/purging role in the endgame. At best she might knock out a few armored units.

[sandmanccl]

The fact that you have to compensate for her lack of defense really shows how bad she is.

OH NO I HAVE TO USE STRATEGY TO GET USE OUT OF A UNIT, MAN SHE IS TERRIBLE

Ever taken a macro-economy course? One of the things they teach you is that specialization leads to the greater good. We don't specialize in coffee here in the United States because Columbia specializes in it. Because they focus so much on that one crop, they are able to make more of it at a higher quality, reducing costs at greater yields (the law of supply and demand).

Micaiah completely nukes horse and armor units. Use her SOLELY for that purpose and she will excel. Don't forget she is still dropping 20+ damage a hit on any other type of unit. She doesn't need to be quick to do that. She doesn't need to be durable to do that. She still has plenty of value to add and seeing as you are FORCEd to use her, not making use of her potential is entirely on your head.

No, Shinon rapes Leonardo. Shinon's stats are in every way superior, Leonardo's suck. He has no defense, average speed and strength, and starts out INCREDIBLY frail with god-awful ability to grow.

Defense doesn't matter for archers, and even if it did, the low defense cap for archers means Shinon's better durability doesn't mean you should put him in harm's way to begin with.

His strength is a single solitary point better than Leonardo's at level equivalency, well within the margin of error for the way stat gains work. Especially because you should be able to gain a point or two of strength through BEXP levels before Leonardo promotes to Sniper.

I won't argue with you on that Jill joins pretty frail with her terrible initial HP and defense, but she does grow into it and overtime becomes possibly the best over-all flier unit in the game with the exception of Elincia.

I also won't argue with you on the usage of Ilyana because frankly, she sucks. Bastian is just as usable as she is (go check it out, level equivalent Ilyana is actually behind BASTIAN OF ALL PEOPLE in quite a few stats, including the all-important Magic stat) but doesn't take an ounce of work or experience away from raising up any of your other potentially amazing units that come in the DB.

[_____]

Shinon's stats are superior? I'm sorry, but if we're going to talk growth rates, Leo wins. Leo has Higher HP, Skill, Luck, and Res. Shinon has speed and defense. Leo has Lughnasadh to cope with his speed during parts 3+4, and the defense doesn't apply if you use them as archers.

As Reikken said, Jill is more durable than Haar, but not quite has powerful. She gets a Brave Axe in Part 3. Win.

If she comes in behind, the amount of Exp she gets simply for attacking is phenominal. If you get her near sage class, she is easily usable, after maybe a chapter of babying (heck, the greil mercenaries have chapters to spare). And I already said that she struggles Magic-Wise compared to Soren, but she makes up for that with nicely-balanced stats everywhere else.

Leonardo's 20/13 stats:

HP:35

STR:20

MAG:6

SKL:30

SPD:20

LCK:24

DEF:15

RES:16

Shinon's base stats:

HP:43

STR:21

MAG:7

SKL:28

SPD:24

LCK:15

DEF:20

RES:14

So, at base level, Shinon wins by 8 in HP, 1 in STR, 1 in MAG, 4 in SPD, and 5 in DEF. Leo wins in SKL by 2, LCK by 9, and RES by 2. However, this is Shinon's base level. He's obviously going to gain a lot more levels, and saying that Leo'll be 20/13 is really pushing it. 20/3 at most.

Lughnasadh gives +5 SPD and has 16 Might. Not bad at all. Give Leo a speed lead at 20/13. Silencer has 16 Might, also, though, and there's 2 of them, so Shinon'll be using that until Endgame rolls around.

Shinon wins. ._.

Jill? More durable? Lawl. Haar has 5 more Def than a level 20/5 Jill at base level.

Too bad her speed is terrible. She's got the same speed as BROM.

[Knife]

Didn't he say not to turn this into a debate? Settle down pplz.

[sandmanccl]

IMO, Mia is the best Trueblade in the game. Why? Her stats end up about as good as Edwards (in my experience, usually better). She is the Trueblade for the Greil Mercenaries, meaning that she will have no trouble leveling and is probably the most playable member of her class.

I actually dislike her because she's with the Greil Mercs. She's competing with too many other incredible units for valuable experience and considering she doesn't have a use only she can fulfill well, she's expendable. Edward can raise up just as well without ever having to compete for usefulness.

Fiona is horrible... she appears at a bad level with bad bases to a group that needs experience badly... now if she joined at levels 1-2 then yes, she might be okay.

If we're talking "ifs", then what if you dropped the strength drop, skill book, and speed wing on her that you can obtain by the time she joins? All of those help correct her bases so that she's on par with how Nolan joins. She still requires a tad of babying if you do that, but she's well worth the effort because it's hard to argue with her growths. Her "bad" growths are 45% HP, 40% strength, and 40% skill. Those are her worst growths. Hell, she's still got 15% magic growth. Let's not forget she's also the only non-laguz unit that join with two valuable skills that aren't taking up capacity, Imbue and Saviour. Both of which are pretty much amazing anyway.

She takes a monumental amount of work, sure, but my point is that she ends utterly fantastic and definitely the best out of any of the potential Silver Knights.

Meg is a bit underated but with good reason.

Same reasons Fiona is except that she trades über growths for pretty awesome growths but much, much, much better base stats, meaning she's a lot easier to use.

Haar>Jill

Irrelevant because they can't start competing with each other until halfway through Act 3, at which time it's possible to make Jill almost on-par with Haar's superior attack power and defense but with vastly improved speed and resistance. One unit being great doesn't diminish another unit being great.

Lol @ Failnardo.

Way to address a single argument I made.

If Laura wasn't a healer, then she would have no purpose. She fails.

If Laura could attack with light magic before promotion, she'd be one of the best units in the game because of her utterly amazing growths.

If.

Too bad if only happens if you hack the game.

Micaiah is far from amazing. She practically gets forced into the healing/purging role in the endgame. At best she might knock out a few armored units.

I'm waiting for you to tell me what part of that makes her a bad unit.

She heals. She can remove status ailments without a staff. Both of those are pretty A+ awesome. She can get any unit you encounter in End-game down to the point another person in your party can finish it off, usually without risk of counter-attack. She can one-shot armor units.

If you don't have guys to run point to keep her out of harm's way, that's your own damn fault now isn't it?

[Florete]

She takes a monumental amount of work, sure, but my point is that she ends utterly fantastic and definitely the best out of any of the potential Silver Knights

I'm busy, but I must comment on this. Astrid turns out the best of all the Silverknights and Goldknights. Fiona turns out 2nd.

[Warrior of Dawn]

Didn't he say not to turn this into a debate? Settle down pplz.

One last point. Then I'm not going to comment on this debate anymore.

Leonardo's 20/13 stats:

HP:35

STR:20

MAG:6

SKL:30

SPD:20

LCK:24

DEF:15

RES:16

Shinon's base stats:

HP:43

STR:21

MAG:7

SKL:28

SPD:24

LCK:15

DEF:20

RES:14

So, at base level, Shinon wins by 8 in HP, 1 in STR, 1 in MAG, 4 in SPD, and 5 in DEF. Leo wins in SKL by 2, LCK by 9, and RES by 2. However, this is Shinon's base level. He's obviously going to gain a lot more levels, and saying that Leo'll be 20/13 is really pushing it. 20/3 at most.

Lughnasadh gives +5 SPD and has 16 Might. Not bad at all. Give Leo a speed lead at 20/13. Silencer has 16 Might, also, though, and there's 2 of them, so Shinon'll be using that until Endgame rolls around.

Shinon wins. ._.

Actually, the Silencer-Lughnasadh thing is where Leo's Lack of availability actually has an advantage. He won't need to use Lughnasadh all the time, so put it at around 25-30 uses come Part 4. He then has two chapters until endgame, at which point the Double Bow comes along. Unless he's in the hawk team, in which case he'll go against the Laguz Typhoon. It's easy to keep Lughnasadh, especially in the desert chapter, where he can hardly move. If you really want to, you can then repair it with Hammerne.

2 Silencers if you use the Greil Mercenaries somewhat ailing finds to buy one. The other one doesn't come until near part 3 Endgame.

If we look at what actually makes a difference, Shinon only has an extra 5 defense. They're Archer's so they don't need it too much. And even so, Leo comes with a Dracoshield that can take that down to 3 extra. From there, Leo will start to show his superiority over Shinon due to his ridiculous Growths. Leo wins.

Jill? More durable? Lawl. Haar has 5 more Def than a level 20/5 Jill at base level.

Too bad her speed is terrible. She's got the same speed as BROM.

Jill quickly overtakes Haar after that. And she gets a free Brave Axe for speed.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Warrior of Dawn

[Reikken]

Dawn Brigade units are among the best in the game for their specific class.

Edward ends the best out of any of the Trueblades, hands down.

Nay. Zihark ends with much more avoid (and probably more res) . . . as opposed to Edward's....what? He doesn't win in anything by the end. Like 1-2 def, and that's it.

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

I'm waiting for you to tell me what part of that makes her a bad unit.

Micaiah is too slow and fragile. She can get one rounded (possibly one-shotted even) by enemies, and has no leadership stars for a commander (meaning the whole Fail Brigade and anyone with her in 4-P and 4-3 suffers as well).

If you ask me, she's the worst lord in the series.

I'm busy, but I must comment on this. Astrid turns out the best of all the Silverknights and Goldknights. Fiona turns out 2nd.

Only if you give Astrid Blossom, she'll turn out to be the best. But you can do the same thing to Geoffrey since he also starts with Paragon. Fiona has the worst joining conditions in the game; getting her up will be very hard (I tried in my girls playthrough only to bench her after numerous tries to beat 3-6 while having her).

Edited November 17, 2008 by Black Luster Soldier

[Saint Nightroad]

I actually dislike her because she's with the Greil Mercs. She's competing with too many other incredible units for valuable experience and considering she doesn't have a use only she can fulfill well, she's expendable. Edward can raise up just as well without ever having to compete for usefulness.

If we're talking "ifs", then what if you dropped the strength drop, skill book, and speed wing on her that you can obtain by the time she joins? All of those help correct her bases so that she's on par with how Nolan joins. She still requires a tad of babying if you do that, but she's well worth the effort because it's hard to argue with her growths. Her "bad" growths are 45% HP, 40% strength, and 40% skill. Those are her worst growths. Hell, she's still got 15% magic growth. Let's not forget she's also the only non-laguz unit that join with two valuable skills that aren't taking up capacity, Imbue and Saviour. Both of which are pretty much amazing anyway.

She takes a monumental amount of work, sure, but my point is that she ends utterly fantastic and definitely the best out of any of the potential Silver Knights.

Same reasons Fiona is except that she trades über growths for pretty awesome growths but much, much, much better base stats, meaning she's a lot easier to use.

Irrelevant because they can't start competing with each other until halfway through Act 3, at which time it's possible to make Jill almost on-par with Haar's superior attack power and defense but with vastly improved speed and resistance. One unit being great doesn't diminish another unit being great.

Way to address a single argument I made.

If Laura could attack with light magic before promotion, she'd be one of the best units in the game because of her utterly amazing growths.

If.

Too bad if only happens if you hack the game.

I'm waiting for you to tell me what part of that makes her a bad unit.

She heals. She can remove status ailments without a staff. Both of those are pretty A+ awesome. She can get any unit you encounter in End-game down to the point another person in your party can finish it off, usually without risk of counter-attack. She can one-shot armor units.

If you don't have guys to run point to keep her out of harm's way, that's your own damn fault now isn't it?

Mia is an absolute dodge-tank. She deals great damage and has many capped stats every time (in my experience.) IMO she is the third best member of the actual GM's next to Boyd and Ike (no Nephenee and Haar don't count in the GM category.)

Micaiah has horrendous speed. Even if you manage to max it, she will rarely double anything (including Generals)... and thats on Easy.

Failnardo sums up Leonardo in one word... thats all he is. Fail.

[_____]

One last point. Then I'm not going to comment on this debate anymore.

Actually, the Silencer-Lughnasadh thing is where Leo's Lack of availability actually has an advantage. He won't need to use Lughnasadh all the time, so put it at around 25-30 uses come Part 4. He then has two chapters until endgame, at which point the Double Bow comes along. Unless he's in the hawk team, in which case he'll go against the Laguz Typhoon. It's easy to keep Lughnasadh, especially in the desert chapter, where he can hardly move. If you really want to, you can then repair it with Hammerne.

2 Silencers if you use the Greil Mercenaries somewhat ailing finds to buy one. The other one doesn't come until near part 3 Endgame.

If we look at what actually makes a difference, Shinon only has an extra 5 defense. They're Archer's so they don't need it too much. And even so, Leo comes with a Dracoshield that can take that down to 3 extra. From there, Leo will start to show his superiority over Shinon due to his ridiculous Growths. Leo wins.

Jill quickly overtakes Haar after that. And she gets a free Brave Axe for speed.

OK? I was saying that they're basically the same, minus the 5 extra speed.

You get one free, and you should have quite a bit of money near 3-Endgame.

Yes, disregard the 8 extra HP. Stat boosters shouldn't be taken into account; Micaiah or Edward needs that Dracoshield more, anyway. Growths don't matter; Average stats do.

Proof or it doesn't happen. That Brave Axe is best if used later on in the game. Give it to an Axe User in the Endgame. Unless you baby Jill, she's never going to be on par with Haar, level-wise.

[Reikken]

Jill outperforms Haar even while a few levels lower.

That Brave Axe is best if used later on in the game.

No, it's best if used whenever it's needed.

And the brave axe has several uses anyway. You can use it down to almost broken and then get it blessed for endgame.

Jill joins pretty frail with her terrible initial HP and defense

Low base hp, sure, but def? Only those already promoted have higher than that. Even Aran has trouble passing that before she joins (and doesn't exceed the hp by much either), at least on hard mode. I know doods level faster on the easier modes.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Reikken

[sandmanccl]

Leonardo's 20/13 stats:

HP:35

STR:20

MAG:6

SKL:30

SPD:20

LCK:24

DEF:15

RES:16

Shinon's base stats:

HP:43

STR:21

MAG:7

SKL:28

SPD:24

LCK:15

DEF:20

RES:14

So, at base level, Shinon wins by 8 in HP, 1 in STR, 1 in MAG, 4 in SPD, and 5 in DEF. Leo wins in SKL by 2, LCK by 9, and RES by 2. However, this is Shinon's base level. He's obviously going to gain a lot more levels, and saying that Leo'll be 20/13 is really pushing it. 20/3 at most.

Everything you said there falls well within the margin of error. Besides, it's perfectly reasonable to compare level 13 Sniper Leo to level 13 Sniper Shinon. Toss him beastfoe in 3-6 and Leo will be your star performer, guaranteed.

Besides, considering Leo and Shinon can't possibly compete for playtime until Part 4 rolls around, it's perfectly reasonable that both will be in the level 1-3 range of Marksman. Both are filling a worthwhile role on their respective teams so who cares who is better in a map that the other can't possibly fight in? Rolling towards my hypothetical situation then:

Leonardo's 20/20/1 stats:

HP:44

STR:25

MAG:11.25 (so 11 rounded)

SKL:32

SPD:25.25 (25)

LCK:28.75 (29)

DEF:20.25 (20)

RES:20

Shinon's --/20/3 stats:

HP:50

STR:26.6 (27)

MAG:12.05 (12)

SKL:33.4 (33)

SPD:29.3 (29)

LCK:17.1 (17)

DEF:25.15 (25)

RES:19.8 (20)

Notice I gave Shinon the level advantage because he'll probably have one. It could be more significant, granted, but I'm going to assume you're spreading the experience around a little more in the Greil Mercs. I know I tend to stop using a guy quite as often if they rank up to tier 3 and there's still other guys I want to rank up.

Processing this, we see Shinon with a lead of 6 HP, 2 strength, 1 magic, 1 skill, 4 speed, and 5 defense. All of those fall within the margin of error except HP and defense. Leo with his bow will be faster. Leo also have a massive lead in luck, a full 12 points.

But wait!

A WILD CARD HAS APPEARED!

If we're going by average, Leo has had 14 potential levels to force stat gains in poor growth areas through bonus experience. By comparison, Shinon has had 5.

That will mean Luck will have definitely maxed long before we're at this point, and his HP will have surpassed or at the very least equalled Shinon's. His strength and speed will also have increased by at the very least two points apiece, meaning he'll have surpassed Shinon in strength and still only barely be behind in raw speed but with an advantage because of his bow.

And here's another kicker in the case that Leo is in fact pretty awesome: Even if you decide to use Shinon, you aren't EVER forced into using both of them at the same time unless you decide to bring both of them end-game. Even once they can finally start competing because you're in Act 4, you can stick, say, Shinon in Ike's group and Leonardo in Tibarn's group. If we're going even by averages, Leo's slight handicap (which he can easily make up for because of bonus experience) isn't enough to make him anything but a star player in part 4's maps. That's the beauty of the marksman class. They're just downright excellent.

Jill? More durable? Lawl. Haar has 5 more Def than a level 20/5 Jill at base level.

Too bad her speed is terrible. She's got the same speed as BROM.

I didn't say more durable. I said passably durable. She's going to be a helluva lot faster than he is so she'll most likely be excelling in offense at the expense of taking more damage when she gets hit.

As for Micaiah, who gives as shit if a sage is slow? Honestly. The only two "fast" sages in the game are Tormod and Calill, and that's purely, purely, purely because Rexflame adds +5 speed. You're going to bring Micaiah every map, so you're going to need to protect her every map, and ignoring the strategy behind that means you're going to be wishing "if only" a whole lot only to discover that "if" never, ever, ever happens. If your aunt has balls, she'd be your uncle. Even if Micaiah NEVER ATTACKS AND ONLY HEALS YOUR UNITS THE ENTIRE GAME, she's an invaluable member for that reason alone. Micaiah is amazing, and easily one of the best lord units in the entire series.

[Reikken]

and that's purely, purely, purely because Rexflame adds +5 speed.

Only if the only thing you're talking about is the last part of endgame.

+3 spd, btw

And yes, Jill is indeed more durable. Avoid? You know what that is?

Edited November 18, 2008 by Reikken

[Lord Raven]

The stat-up items aren't just there for show.

That's not my point. I use Seraph Robes on her myself, but even then that doesn't help much because almost everything kills her in two hits anyway.

Shinon's stats are superior? I'm sorry, but if we're going to talk growth rates, Leo wins. Leo has Higher HP, Skill, Luck, and Res. Shinon has speed and defense. Leo has Lughnasadh to cope with his speed during parts 3+4, and the defense doesn't apply if you use them as archers.

Okay, you're not getting this.

First off, Leonardo's bases are absolutely pathetic. He gets doubled very, very quickly into the game and has no defense to back it up either. Nor does he have HP. And he ain't doubling for a while himself, I'll assure you of that. In a nutshell: he blows in Part 1.

In Part 3, he has Lugnasadh. But if you didn't use him in Part 1, he's way, way behind. If you did, he's actually doing pretty well. Except that it's painful to baby him in the first place, and only slows you down early on. And his durability still sucks at 20/1.

Shinon's 20/13 (base) stats are higher than Leonardo's 20/13 stats too. And every growth of Shinon's save like Luck, Resistance, and HP is higher; the HP is compensated with having a higher base (and a higher max, too! I'd like to add, 20/20/20 of each has Shinon being the champion of HP MEANING that he'll keep his HP lead), the Resistance by Shinon's HP and Defense lead, and finally the Luck with Shinon's general ability to evade anyway.

Shinon also uses Crossbows and can still have good speed, where Leonardo sacrifices about 5 speed to use something other than Lugnasadh. And Shinon ends up with the Double Bow because, once again, he doesn't have to give up Speed for it like Leonardo does; in this case, Leonardo's only leading in Luck and Resistance.

In a nutshell, Shinon results better, at worst he results just as well as Leonardo, with loads of less time and energy. It helps that he comes in a good time in the game too.

As Reikken said, Jill is more durable than Haar, but not quite has powerful. She gets a Brave Axe in Part 3. Win.

Reikken said that Haar's more durable until Part 4 or something, when Jill starts to evade decently. He did not quite say that Jill was always going to be more durable due to evasion.

Brave Axe seems better suited on Haar because of his lack of ability to double attack as often; Jill seems to do fine with a Steel Poleaxe anyway. But I digress.

If she comes in behind, the amount of Exp she gets simply for attacking is phenominal. If you get her near sage class, she is easily usable, after maybe a chapter of babying (heck, the greil mercenaries have chapters to spare). And I already said that she struggles Magic-Wise compared to Soren, but she makes up for that with nicely-balanced stats everywhere else.

She has the same speed as Soren if not lower... and BEXP can't easily fix that because she won't hit her caps as early. And Thunder magic blows.

She's not "easily usable" at or near Sage class. She's still quite tough to use because the enemies have stats about as high as hers.

When do you expose Mist to the front lines? Healer's are not meant to be durable. Moulder in FE8 is the one exception to that rule. Otherwise, Yes, Laura is a pain to level up, paragon is the solution. (One level up every 5 or so turns? Very yes)

Where did I say Mist was going to the frontlines?

You don't even obtain Paragon until like late into Part 1. Where her post-Part 1 level goes to 13 or 14 instead of like 10 anyway. This still makes Laura frail as hell, and she still needs to be heavily protected... Mist can at least take a couple hits before dying.

I don't care what they're "meant to be," what they're "meant to be" is irrelevant. That's input; the output is what really matters and Laura's output makes her bait to physical units. It's similar to allowing an illiterate person to becoming president because his country or family was too poor to afford education.

Like most of the Dawn Brigade, Meg is amazing if you put the effort in. And how are her bases "Bad?" They're amazing. It's just she's a low level.

It's too much effort. Her bases are bad because she can't handle what's in the chapter she's in, it has nothing to do with her base level or anything. You have to understand, when one's bases are "poor" it's because they suck in the chapter they're in and they suck in the chapter(s) afterwards with those stats or their stats a couple levels higher. It doesn't necessarily mean they're poor relative to the level; you have to factor both in after all.

The Dawn Brigade should have got waaay more chapters in Part 3. Then maybe they'd be noticed.

Well that's too bad then isn't it. Edited November 18, 2008 by Lord Raven

[Knife]

Does no one respect the TC's request?

[sandmanccl]

I'm busy, but I must comment on this. Astrid turns out the best of all the Silverknights and Goldknights. Fiona turns out 2nd.

Even you have to admit it's still pretty debatable because both are nearly on par with one another. The difference is that Astrid has access to a better weapon in the Double Bow (although the Wishblade is still pretty damn awesome). There's plenty of give and take for upsides and downsides to each of the two.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how low speed on a unit that shouldn't be getting attacked makes her OMFG TRBL. If my Micaiah had 1 speed or 30, it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference to me because I'm not stupid enough to leave her open to incoming attacks from, say, an enemy warrior. With the addition of the herons, there's no excuse in leaving her open to attack from something that will end your game.

L2strategy.

@Reikken: Sorry, +3 speed.

If we're not talking about end-game, than none of the sages are EVER fast, including the ones I've listed. Tormod will be horrendously underleveled and Calill, while she's got a pretty decent speed gain, takes a lot of effort towards getting into double-attacking territory. Soren, Ilyana and Bastian are just slow regardless of what you do.