The Dawn Brigade

[Lord Raven]

Firstly, offense is irrelevant to how defensibly capable a unit is. Secondly, a "ton" more damage is a matter of when we're talking seeing as Jill won't catch up to strength on a level equivalent Meg until level 20/20. Jill's faster halfway into tier 2, but only because she's got a better stat cap (and even then only by 3).

I'm pretty sure Axes do more damage than Swords. I'm also pretty sure that Jill's ahead when it comes to level and stats in comparison to Meg, as well as the fact that Jill's more offensively capable and almost as defensively capable in comparison.

Besides, Meg comes two chapters before Jill. She's not catching up in time for Jill, and you even said that their defenses are nearly the same when they're at the same level. Odds are, they're further away now that Meg's at a lower level, so Jill leads for longer throughout the game.

Oh yeah, and the chapter after she joins is filled with Mages. Though, most of your characters get killed anyway, but... actually, before I go on, someone post their stats. :E

Jill beats Meg in offense and defense. :E

You decided someone was bad and when they turned up worse than expected, you signed and passed the bill?

My response was initially to a post that said this:

I try to use a unit before I judge them. next time you do a RD playthrough, why don't you attempt to use Leo? From the sounds of it, you haven't used him past Part 3.

Which basically told me to judge by personal experience. Which I did.

And I didn't field Shinon on Hard, same reason I never field him. Rolf is better in my eyes, and I like the rest of the GM units too much to bother with him. He's good but hardly a necessity.

Technically no one's a necessity. But Shinon's definitely better than Rolf; there's a large stat lead with Shinon and he requires a lot less work to be just as good... it helps that Shinon's closer to promotion and starts doubling/killing, whereas Rolf doesn't.

Rolf's growths are better, but Shinon's overall output is better. Rolf requires handholding too, but he is pretty durable even afterward; Leo is still iffy throughout, especially since his Speed can't keep up throughout Normal and Hard at the beginning. Seriously, explain to me how exactly you made him usable in Hard mode?

[Killer Poleax]

I think they can all turn out good if you put the effort into them. Of course, that all depends on if you want to use them in the first place. Anyways, I just use the characters I like and forget all about averages. They're more like guidelines anyways.

[Lord Cow-Cow]

3 things

1. i thought this wasn't supposed to be a debate

2. saying 1 character is bad because another is better is NOT a valid argument.

3. ANY character can be good if you put effort into it and ANY can be bad even if you put effort in.

[Saaji]

I do admit Nolan is a good character and tier list wise is better then Boyd probably... I'm just sad because he does love me as much as I love him. Since he always turns out medicore for me. :(

I know its it silly wishing for different growths I was just stating unlike some characters how just have crappy growths all round Leo has a good total % growth just not well spread out... I was just saying it would have been nice thats all nothing else. I mean can anyone really say Leo wouldnt have benifited from slightly more balanced growths?

[sandmanccl]

I'm pretty sure Axes do more damage than Swords. I'm also pretty sure that Jill's ahead when it comes to level and stats in comparison to Meg, as well as the fact that Jill's more offensively capable and almost as defensively capable in comparison.

Axes have two more might than swords at equivalent settings (iron, steel, silver, poleaxe/blade). Two more damage per hit. Meg has two more strength on average at equivalent levels until we're talking tail end of tier 2. Offensively, they are both pretty much on the same page. Jill will be double attacking with unreliable skill (handaxe + her starting skill = shitty chance to hit) while Meg will be slightly more accurate at the expense of double-attacking EVERYTHING (although once you get her up in levels, she pretty much does just that).

Besides, Meg comes two chapters before Jill. She's not catching up in time for Jill, and you even said that their defenses are nearly the same when they're at the same level. Odds are, they're further away now that Meg's at a lower level, so Jill leads for longer throughout the game.

Oh yeah, and the chapter after she joins is filled with Mages. Though, most of your characters get killed anyway, but... actually, before I go on, someone post their stats. :E

It's not inconcievable to have Meg around level 8 or 9 by the time Jill joins. You're right, Jill will have a level lead on her for awhile. Thing is, Meg's available in more chapters in Part 1 and she can help make up the differential in those maps.

The difference is that Jill flies, so she's got utility value Meg doesn't. It's a plus in her favor. I personally dislike Jill until halfway through Part 3 because she loses a lot of AS with her steel axe and I hate buying weapons when I've got one in my inventory for free. She's good for her own thing, same as Meg.

And the mage thing... Meg can take more damage from them than most the other people on your team. Just because she's in heavy armor doesn't mean she's got poor resistances. Faulting one person for the fault of literally every unit on your team at that time is just absurd. Her resistances are better than everyone else in the Dawn Brigade except Micaiah, Laura, Ilyana (duh) and... Leonardo! Whom you've already shown that you hate. Funny that you're all OMG MEG IS TRBL BECAUSE OF MAGES when she's one of your 3 best people for attacking them. (1: Micaiah because she just plain doesn't take damage from mages, 2: Leonardo for dishing out good damage while taking little in return, and maybe tied for Ilyana at 3 because Ilyana isn't going to be inflicting worthwhile damage against enemy mages while Meg is going to take a bit more of her HP off.)

Jill beats Meg in offense and defense. :E

"Sort of." Meg can catch up (it's not terribly hard to do so), both are pretty much even stevens so even if one is "better" than the other, it would come down to how you'd use each unit anyway.

My point isn't to say MEG > JILL, anyway, because that's not true. They serve completely different purposes, even on Hard. Jill as your only canto unit, let alone flier, is going to be doing hit-and-run stuff that's important, while Meg is going to be up front keeping guys from hacking down Micaiah and Laura.

My point was to say that Meg is one of the best defensively capable units on the Dawn Brigade (in every function: HP, Defense, Avoid), and still brings a pretty solid offense to the table.

Technically no one's a necessity. But Shinon's definitely better than Rolf; there's a large stat lead with Shinon and he requires a lot less work to be just as good... it helps that Shinon's closer to promotion and starts doubling/killing, whereas Rolf doesn't.

Rolf's growths are better, but Shinon's overall output is better. Rolf requires handholding too, but he is pretty durable even afterward; Leo is still iffy throughout, especially since his Speed can't keep up throughout Normal and Hard at the beginning. Seriously, explain to me how exactly you made him usable in Hard mode?

Bullshit. Rolf blows Shinon out of the water. "Hand holding" means you have to put Gatrie in a position to block enemies from getting behind your lines? Ohhhhkay, sure. Shinon is double-attacking guys, sure, but still isn't one-rounding them so it's a moot point because you're still bring multiple guys to finish off any given enemy. Shinon crits more, granted.

The thing is, Rolf has his brothers to fall back on, and Triangle Attack + 3 range + Double Bow = fucking amazing. Shinon can't even compare to that. Neither can Leo. Neither can even friggin' Ike. Rolf is easily one of the top 5 overall units in the entire game.

As for how to make Leo useful: Depends on the map. We'll start at 1-2, the map Laura joins.

1-2

Run Leonardo up the cliff to help attack the guy above. Run Edward up there with him to finish it off. Block the enemies to your right from entering your little shell with Nolan (you'll probably want to equip his hand axe so he doesn't get doubled). Stick Micaiah directly behind, put Laura in a position so she can run up on your turn to heal Edward.

Leo is going to get a hit on an enemy ever single possible turn in the map in order to keep enemies down enough so that they won't counter-attack you on your turn. Plus there's plenty of ledges and enemies that spawn below. Your hand axe on Nolan and your Wind Edge on Edward are precious valuables, so you're stuck with Leonardo and Micaiah to handle guys dropping in below you.

1-3

Sothe runs point un-equipped in the spot between the trees like this:

██T

TS█

Leonardo heads towards the left-most enemy. Nolan finishes it off, also blocking in the process.

Ilyana and Edward run right, with Ed in the bushes to help his dodge out.

Next turn, Sothe steals candy (vulnaries!), Micaiah nukes the baddy, Leonardo should also be able to get in to attack something while still having the enemies blocked by Sothe and Nolan. I trust you to figure out the finer details. Everyone is busy, is all I'm saying. It should hold out that way pretty much until the end of the entire map, even after you pick up Aran. You're going to be relying a helluva lot on ranged attacks (not just from Leo, but from everyone).

1-4

Ilyana will probably stand on the coin pile to attack the tiger to your right, while Leo and whomever you supported him with (Edward or Nolan or even Laura) stay up top for the time being. Leo's job is to whittle down the transform-o-tron on the tiger who's trying to bust down the door. The turn before it's about to be busted down, either attack once more and then run Ilyana to push him out of the way to run Ed or Nolan or Aran or Meg up to take his position or simply move Leonardo out of the way on your own. Should be a pretty straight-forward tank and spank up top with Laura to heal whomever is plugging the hole, and then Ilyana and Leo to pewpew the Laguz down.

Sothe and whichever guys aren't busy up top will be running around throughout the rest of the stage. It's pretty easy to get through it defensively as there's a ton of choke points. Guy who can survive the faster, stronger tigers up front, then Micaiah, Leo, or Ilyana behind (or multiples if the situation allows) to whittle them down.

Side note: Great stage to sacrifice abuse on, by the way. The little healy squares are wonderful for it. Even if you're only transferring 4 health at a time to your guys who've been damaged, it'll be a big help and Micaiah can take the time to recover.

1-5

This is like... Leo's greatest moment, especially if you bought the Longbow from Aimee beforehand. Your ultimate goal for Leonardo and someone else with a ranged weapon (your hand axe with Nolan is likely dull by this point so Edward/Meg with your Wind Edge or Aran with his javelin) is to get them up on the ledge in the middle of the stage to rain hell down on the enemies trying to get up on the right. The reason I don't say Ilyana for that is because she's more important running straight up the side with the rest of your team as one of the 3 attackers you have unimpeded by sand (others being Volug and Micaiah.) I guarantee that Leo will get quite a lot of use in that map if you make it to that ledge quickly enough.

1-6-1

Leo with the Steel bow should hopefully be one-rounding the multiple pegasus knights you encounter in the map. He's also pretty damn good for attacking the mages seeing as there won't be anyone but Tauroneo who can one-shot them and he'll take less damage than most other people on your team due to his high resistance (because whether you attack with range or not, the mage will counter you).

1-6-2

If you can manage it, kill the guy on the seat of the ballista ASAP, then run Leo into it on turn two. His job will be to waste that ammunition over on the bridge where all the knights are incoming. To stem off the tide, run Aran, an enequipped Tauroneo, and then Micaiah and Ilyana over behind them. Arrange like this:

█A█I

T█M█

The purpose of tiering Aran and Tauroneo is so that enemies will always have a clear shot at Tauroneo. If you make a flat wall, you run the risk of the enemy stopping one of their cavaliers in the spot right in front of Tauroneo, so they will all start taking shots at Aran and kill him. The reason you keep Ilyana and Micaiah a single space backwards is so that they run no risk of being attacked by the two or so guys with Wind Edges. On your turn, have Leo send a bolt over to whatever guy stopped in front of Aran, have Ilyana attack it, and if you can finish it off with Aran, do so. If not, just push Ilyana back a square. Micaiah should run forward and one-shot the guy in front of Tauroneo, and then Tauroneo pushes her back to safety.

You should probably get through the first wave of horses by the time the Ballista runs dry. I usually finish them all off before that happens. After it runs dry, you can have Leonardo join the bridge assault team or join up with the likely closer Marado Rescue Division. Either way, he'll find use as a ranged attacker. (I'd go over what do to with the rest of the guys but I trust you've played the map and have a general idea of how to go about saving the Marado Knights. I'm just trying to say how Leonardo is useful, anyways.)

--------------------

I would like to note that Leonardo will be fielded through this point, love him or hate him. You never have to leave a single guy on the bench until 1-7. Leo's proven he's pretty useful up to this point.

I'll go more into how to use him for the rest of Part 1 of the game later. Good TV is about to start and I'm kind of tired of pointing out what I find obvious, at least for the moment.

[Saaji]

^ sand

You can't really argue that Shinon is just straight up easier to use compared to Rolf, though the gap between them isn't that huge and can kinda be closed in a few chapters if you decide to bench Shinon and use Rolf instead.

The thing is, Rolf has his brothers to fall back on, and Triangle Attack + 3 range + Double Bow = fucking amazing. Shinon can't even compare to that. Neither can Leo. Neither can even friggin' Ike. Rolf is easily one of the top 5 overall units in the entire game.

The triangle attack while a plus is a rather small one especially since Silver Knights are totally meh so Oscar probably wont be used long enough for that to become a worthwhile option. So I suppose if you field all three brothers Rolf does have the bond support advantage but thats it Shinon also has the same range potential, and can also use the double bow and he's going to be able to use it faster then Rolf.

Also I wasn't saying Leo is unusable, just not the best compared to his rival archers. In the DB chapters Leo is going to see playtime for good while they need all the help they can get and he's there for most of their chapters also.

[sandmanccl]

Killing the final 3 bosses in the game in a hit (or pretty damn close to it) is a rather major plus, if you ask me.

[Saaji]

Killing the final 3 bosses in the game in a hit (or pretty damn close to it) is a rather major plus, if you ask me.

Hmm... impressive I never really that until I did the math, I'm quite impressed. Though its only really helpful Dheginsea, and Sephiran since a our hero boy as to finish of a certain boss. Levail can be dispatched by any high tier character thats prepared for the job, especially a True blade.

[sandmanccl]

Something to note, is that Rolf can be standing at max range and still trigger the triangle attack.

O█E█B

█████

█████

██R██

E stands for enemy.

Even if you don't one-shot them, you get pretty damn close to it and there's no risk of counter attack. You know as well as I do how absurdly awesome that is against Dheginsea. As for Ashera, she's got 120 HP and even with max strength with the double bow, I don't think Rolf quite gets up to the 40 points a hit range against her, so it's a fantastic way to get her close enough for Ike to finish off.

[Reikken]

Nolan has like a minute HP lead on Meg. Equivalent levels,

There's your problem. Equivalent levels simply don't exist. All level does is affect growth rate and capping. Nolan starts higher and has 3 more chapters to level before Meg appears. He's like 9 levels higher to start off. Getting Meg to lv 15 takes about as much or more than it takes to get Nolan to lv 20. So he's always faster, and his hp lead is much more substantial than her def lead until much later. But then when later comes around, Nolan can get a +4 def whenever he needs to. More luck, yeah. She gets that. But she still always loses by a lot in avoid regardless, due to supports (and later, speed).

Same thing on levels for Jill. Jill wins in def even before supports (Meg ties it up later), and her spd like 3 higher than Meg's is, always. Except it's by like 4-5 starting off and for the two times that Jill is promoted and Meg not. And Jill wins in avoid before supports as well. And by even more after supports.

Meg does pull out a win in hp later, and she wins in res right away.

you're dealing with a 5 point spread, but Meg's defense is better than Nolan's by roughly 3. It's not too difficult to catch her up in levels to Nolan, especially because she's gaining slightly more XP a kill and the concept of bonus experience throws "guaranteed levels" on any given stage out the window.

Yes, it's easy to catch her up by using her more than Nolan. But then I could do the opposite just as easily (or more easily, rather, since Nolan is better at combat), and instead widen the level difference. Or give them both roughly the same amount, and the level difference slowly decreases. And the third scenario is the average of what you get when considering all three possibilities.

I don't know what you're talking about with that last sentence, though.

Volug, well, I guess I didn't consider him for the same reasons I didn't really consider Sothe except to the nth degree. He's going to be gaining 1 experience even on a kill, even on many of the bosses.

The "even on the bosses" is a great exaggeration. Anyway, while his exp gains are garbage, he's gaining something else that's just as valuable: strike levels. Getting that +5 (and +10) attack is very helpful.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Reikken

[Mekkah]

Mekkah, you've said yourself you have yet to play the game. "Better" in part 1 doesn't mean you should use him very much in part 1. You've got nearly the entire game to get him to level 20 as a rogue, so it's much, much, much more important to level up your other units while you have the chance. Considering how difficult many of the Part 3 dawn brigade chapters can be because of how hard it is to spread the experience around to keep everyone viable, Sothe gaining combat experience in part 1 is a severe detriment to your overall well-being for the course of the game.

Do you let Seth steal all the kills in FE8 in the game's beginning, or do you just use him for those "oh shit" situations where you really need to take out a guy so they don't kill your weaker guys on your turn? My guess is that you use him lightly for the first bit of the game so you can allow other good units time to raise up so they can start to hold their own. It's a little different in this situation simply because you have until the end of time to get Sothe to 20 before the game auto-promotes him (so it goes doubly so for Sothe, actually), but I hope you get my point.

For your side, you should be arguing Zihark rather than Sothe because the argument makes a little more sense.

All I'm saying is that "stealing EXP" is a term that goes for everyone who gets any kill ever, and that it's not a point to use against Sothe, or Zihark, or whatever. The fact that Sothe caps at 20 Rogue sucks for him, but the fact that he doesn't need as much EXP as Leo is not a point against him but rather a point in his favour.

Not having played this game hardly matters in this context, since it's the exact same logic that can be applied to FE8 Seth. I've also watched and talked about this game enough to know what's what in general.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Mekkah

[sandmanccl]

Reikken, you seem to like the idea that your highest leveled people should always remain your highest leveled people. I know myself and quite a lot of other people, when we're presented with a low level unit that turns into mega awesomeness, tend to favor that unit in the sense that when we run into a situation where all the enemies before us die and they get a kill in the process, that's the way we're going to play the cards. Yeah, it means they get favored a little bit, but it's not like the other people in the party aren't getting used (they're helping kill other units or get the one the lower level unit is going to kill down to the point that it'll die).

What it does mean, is that growing quickly is not a problem.

What I meant by the bonus experience thing is that you can keep throwing BEXP on your lower leveled guys. I realize you can do the same to your higher leveled guys, but you will be using less BEXP for more actual experience on your weaker units. If I'm trying to raise a unit up to speed because I like them or want to use them end-game or just plain think I need another decent character to help me get by on a future chapter, my highest leveled guy probably isn't the one getting my limited bonus experience I'm gathering on Hard Mode. Normal Mode, well, seeing as I can toss it between like 4 guys and still have plenty left over, it just goes to whomever I want to use end-game.

Mekkah,

I realize we've had spats in the past so my comment that you said you haven't played it before might have been taken in the "RAWR JUST SHUT UP YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT" way (couldn't blame you if you took it that way, I am sort of an asshole), but it's not how I meant it. FE10 is quite a bit different than even FE9 in terms of how you choose to field your party. The fact you are so unrestricted early in the game but become extremely restricted end-game is a major factor in who you'll want to "focus" on leveling up, and now that bonus experience forces 3 stat gains (no more, no less) upon a level up allows you much greater leeway in terms of unit potential.

What that means in terms of general planning, especially for the Dawn Brigade, is that yes, indeed, higher level units are "stealing" experience from lower level units. You get little to no benefit out of favoring them in the early part of the game because it doesn't limit their capabilities over the course of the entire game, but it will severely cripple the rest of the team, which actually does limit the capabilities of Sothe and Zihark because you'll end up having ONLY them who are any good. It keeps Sothe from stealing more healing candies, and makes Zihark as the only viable front-line unit. Which leads to an even greater problem if you want to stick Zihark on Ike's team.

I don't really care if you don't understand that you're limiting your team by having your high level guys do all the dirty work for you for the first bit. That's still exactly what you're doing. I'm always arguing strategy over unit worship (example: Leo's being useful is in no way, shape, or form changed by the fact there's potentially other better archers seeing as they will never see the battlefield at the same time), and it's better to your overall strategy to raise up 3 or 4 guys to tier 2 before the end of Part 1.

Edited November 19, 2008 by sandmanccl

[Reikken]

What you like to do doesn't change how good the units are. Someone may like to give Micaiah all their speedwings and reset whenever she doesn't get a +speed level up, but that doesn't mean she has good speed.

Yes, you can give unit X 5 million points of exp, and they'll level up a lot. But you can also give unit Y that 5 million points of exp. If unit Y is better with neither getting an increased exp gain and also better when both get it, then unit Y is obviously better.

And giving either of these units that 5 million points of exp shafts other units out of exp (It doesn't necessarily have to be by an omg-game-breaking amount, so don't give me that "it's not like they're gaining zero exp" crap. The fact is that they are indeed gaining less exp).

[sandmanccl]

Dude, you will always favor some units every single playthrough. It's the nature of the game. Don't give me bullshit about "BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT".

We're having a super long conversation about hypothetical situations, for fuck's sake. My hypothetical situations are just as valid as yours.

The difference is that mine makes a unit you think is utter garbage quite the star, and still has the guys you love doing pretty damn well for themselves.

[Reikken]

I'm not saying that people don't favor units. What I'm saying is that Nolan, etc. can be favored just as well, and that this favoring also comes at a cost. The difference is that your "hypothetical situation" completely ignores these facts.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Reikken

[Lord Raven]

Bullshit. Rolf blows Shinon out of the water. "Hand holding" means you have to put Gatrie in a position to block enemies from getting behind your lines? Ohhhhkay, sure. Shinon is double-attacking guys, sure, but still isn't one-rounding them so it's a moot point because you're still bring multiple guys to finish off any given enemy. Shinon crits more, granted.

The thing is, Rolf has his brothers to fall back on, and Triangle Attack + 3 range + Double Bow = fucking amazing. Shinon can't even compare to that. Neither can Leo. Neither can even friggin' Ike. Rolf is easily one of the top 5 overall units in the entire game.

As for how to make Leo useful: Depends on the map. We'll start at 1-2, the map Laura joins.

You're kidding, right? Shinon has access to the same things, and on top of that he's closer to promotion and that three range, and his bases are significantly higher for him to lean back on. He's doubling and killing a lot more often, whereas Rolf needs a kickstart before he can start that. "Handholding" basically means that he needs to steal kills to be effective, and Shinon doesn't for the sake of a comparison. Their level gap is pretty wide too, as well as their stat gap, and it'll stay wide because Rolf only starts at Level 1 and Shinon around 13.

It's not a moot point, because Shinon makes it so it requires a lot less work to finish stuff off.

Triangle Attack is basically a glorified critical and I forget if there even is one in FE10. If there is, then it's pretty much useless and you won't be able to use it until Oscar promotes, in which case you have to give him a bow and Boyd a Crossbow (thus hindering their respective performances; not necessarily on Oscar's part, though) just to give Rolf a critical. Which you can easily, more conveniently do with a Killer Bow or something anyway, and Shinon even has access to this.

Don't even make it sound like Shinon can't use the Double Bow. You seriously must be quite stupid to argue that Shinon's worse than Rolf; Shinon starts out way ahead with access to the same things as Rolf, while maintaining decent growths in the process. Rolf starts out relatively weak/average and ends up amazing thanks to his growths, but Shinon has the advantage of starting amazing and ending amazing.

The way you make it sound, it sounds like Leo is not gaining many levelups if at all. It sounds like he's there only to weaken things for people like Eddie so they can get kills; it's useful, but he'll start to drag if all he does is weaken things (by your strategy). It doesn't' sound like he's getting many levelups, at all from my perspective.

[sandmanccl]

I'm not saying that people don't favor units. What I'm saying is that Nolan, etc. can be favored just as well, and that this favoring also comes at a cost. The difference is that your "hypothetical situation" completely ignores these facts.

You've ignored everything I've ever said, so whatever. The conclusion we've reached is that whomever you decide to favor is a great unit, whether it's Meg or Nolan or Edward or whoever.

This is the point where we come to agree to disagree.

@ Raven:

Jesus Christ, dude.

Shinon needs to 'steal kills' to reach that promotion. Rolf just needs more. Considering it's extremely easy to have either of them reach the level cap before the end of the game, who gives a damn who gets where first?

Your argument against the triangle attack IGNORES THE LAST F****** PAGE OF F****** REPLIES I'VE POSTED. If you're going to argue against me, read what I have to say so I don't have to repeat myself.

Do you wonder why I'm so derivative towards your ilk? It's everything I can do to contain myself from ripping into you.

[Lord Raven]

It makes two of the end-game bosses either, it's really not that big a deal if it's useless for the rest of the game.

Shinon needs to 'steal kills' to reach that promotion. Rolf just needs more. Considering it's extremely easy to have either of them reach the level cap before the end of the game, who gives a damn who gets where first?

Shinon's able to make kills since he does a lot more damage. Rolf does a lot less damage; I estimate that he does at least 15 or 20 less on average because of his base strength and lack of ability to double.

It matters who gets there first because they end up serving the better role for a larger duration of the game.

Do you wonder why I'm so derivative towards your ilk? It's everything I can do to contain myself from ripping into you.

My "ilk"? Edited November 19, 2008 by Lord Raven

[Reikken]

Considering it's extremely easy to have either of them reach the level cap before the end of the game, who gives a damn who gets where first?

everyone who cares about more than just the end of the game, obviously

You've ignored everything I've ever said, so whatever.

Not that's not even remotely true.

The conclusion we've reached is that whomever you decide to favor is a great unit, whether it's Meg or Nolan or Edward or whoever.

This is the point where we come to agree to disagree.

Eh what? Now you're talking about something completely different. This was about which DB units have better or worse defenses. Or rather, where Meg ranks among them.

[Warrior of Dawn]

I'd take this oppurtunity to point out that Rolf gains almost twice as much EXP for a normal (non-death) blow as Shinon due to the Level gap. I'm likely to be ignored, but I'm sure that counts to something. Rolf can be used to weaken units rather than kill them, then let someone else finish them off. He's not "Stealing" any exp.. Especially as the majority of the GM's One-Round everything.

I digress, though. Dawn Brigade.

Meg is useful if you compensate for the low level at which she starts. I'm not going to lie and say that won't take BEXP/Some babying but is one of the Dawn Brigade's better units. She has excellent bases for her level. Good growths (even if they are a bit wierd). She's also the most magic-resistant of the armour-types in RD (And a good deal more resistant than most characters, for that matter).

I wish people would occasionally remember that weaker ally means more EXP for the same action. =/

Edited November 19, 2008 by Warrior of Dawn

[Kintenbo]

I'd take this oppurtunity to point out that Rolf gains almost twice as much EXP for a normal (non-death) blow as Shinon due to the Level gap, but I'm likely to be ignored. So whatever.

Meh, that can be said of any lower leveled character. It rarely gives anybody a major edge, unless the low level person has rediculously high base stats. (Gonzales comes to mind, 43 HP at level 5 unpromoted....) Rolf is definately better than his Path of Radiance counterpart, but Shinon got super buffed in this one.

[sandmanccl]

It makes two of the end-game bosses either, it's really not that big a deal if it's useless for the rest of the game.

How dare I prefer a guy who has a bigger end-game role to one that is "better" on the easiest maps in the entire game.

Shinon's able to make kills since he does a lot more damage. Rolf does a lot less damage; I estimate that he does at least 15 or 20 less on average because of his base strength and lack of ability to double.

Rolf speeds up fairly quick. He's got decent speed growths. He does a lot MORE damage per hit, saving you money, something the Mercs are short on for quite awhile.

What's the difference between a guy who hits for 20 twice and a guy who hits for 25 once against an opponent with 45 health? You need to bring in a guy who can hit for 20 instead of someone that can just hit for 5. Big deal. We're talking the Greil Mercenaries here. Gatrie, Oscar, Ike, Boyd, and Titania should cover the spread. The only people who won't cover that damage in a single blow are Mia (once of the reasons I think she's useless) and Mist. OH MY FUCKING GOD SHINON IS SO MUCH MORE USEFUL DESPITE THE FACT I STILL HAVE TO ATTACK THE ENEMY WITH TWO GUYS :((((

Shinon has better crit, and that's about the only thing of his that's clearly better. His lead in speed hardly matters.

The fact is that most guys you fight with the Griel Mercs aren't being one-rounded by too many of your guys, Shinon included, unless you're hefting powerful weapons. The Mercs are poor for a long time so you are most likely just using what you're given, plus some Iron/Steel Greatlance/axe/blades once stuff starts breaking (as they are rather cost-effective weapons).

It matters who gets there first because they end up serving the better role for a larger duration of the game.

Being the clear best at the end is more important in this game than being the clear best in the beginning, if you want my opinion, especially if the guy in question is still quite good for this "larger duration" of the game.

My "ilk"?

Three letter word too big for you?

[Saint Nightroad]

What's the difference between a guy who hits for 20 twice and a guy who hits for 25 once against an opponent with 45 health? You need to bring in a guy who can hit for 20 instead of someone that can just hit for 5. Big deal. We're talking the Greil Mercenaries here. Gatrie, Oscar, Ike, Boyd, and Titania should cover the spread. The only people who won't cover that damage in a single blow are Mia (once of the reasons I think she's useless) and Mist. OH MY FUCKING GOD SHINON IS SO MUCH MORE USEFUL DESPITE THE FACT I STILL HAVE TO ATTACK THE ENEMY WITH TWO GUYS :((((

Rofl Mia useless? You do realise that her bases are really good, so she is more defensively capable than the majority of the team, while also having more room to grow then most of the members, eventually becoming an absolute dodging juggernaut (like Zihark only better, because she doesn't get RNG screwed... well atleast not for me.)

She starts out great, ends as one of the best in the game, maxing many stats and easily competing with Edward and Zihark for best swordmaster in the game (except that they made her strength cap a meaningless 1 point less than theirs.)

I might add that if you use her as a frontliner, she is great for supporting Ike (as they will often be near each other... seriously... why aren't they a couple?) And you can even equip her with Daunt, which not only raises her evasion, but the evasion of everyone near her, while also effectively making enemy Thunder Mages (and to a lesser extent, other high critical enemies) worthless.

Of course Wrath and adept are other great options (you basically choose between Adept and Daunt or Adept and Wrath.)

She even gets Vantage for free.

Yep... real useless.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Chris Lionheart

[sandmanccl]

Meh, that can be said of any lower leveled character. It rarely gives anybody a major edge, unless the low level person has rediculously high base stats. (Gonzales comes to mind, 43 HP at level 5 unpromoted....) Rolf is definately better than his Path of Radiance counterpart, but Shinon got super buffed in this one.

The thing is that Rolf catches up to Shinon's strength extremely fast. You've got a 3 out of 4 chance of gaining strength with him, so if we're talking level 9, he should have gained 6 strength. That shouldn't take too long as Rolf'll be gaining about half a level per kill (and taking much, much, much less of your bonus experience than Shinon would). Shinon is lucky to hit 24 strength before he even promotes. He gains strength 2 out of every 5 levels, so you're looking at 3, maybe 4 before be promotes.

By the way, as Rolf hits level 9, his speed should be around the 22 mark. (Rounded averages = 23 for level 9.) A mere two below Shinon's base. Fast enough to double attack plenty of enemies you'll be fighting. (All? No. Shinon's not doubling Swordmasters, either, though.)

Let's even go balls to the wall here and say Shinon's managed to gain himself 6 levels.

Strength? Tied, with Rolf set to take the lead for quite some time.

Skill? Yeah, Shinon's got the edge. Rolf's still not missing. It equates to a higher crit chance for Shinon unless Rolf is next to Boyd and Oscar.

Speed? Yeah, Shinon's got 4 more than Rolf. (3 on rounded averages.) Yeah, he's double attacking more guys.

OH MY GOD THAT IS SUCH A HUGE, MONUMENTAL LEAD I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT ANYONE WOULD USE ROLF EVER.

Solution: Have Rolf attack slower enemies? There's plenty of slugs out there. Shinon's not quick enough to double-attack Swordmaster enemies, so he's got the advantage over Rolf against, like, Warriors. That's about it. Rolf is quick enough to double attack enemy sages, archers, generals, dragonmasters... Odd how he'll actually be hurting the enemies that both of them can double attack more than your precious Shinon, eh?

[sandmanccl]

Rofl Mia useless? You do realise that her bases are really good, so she is more defensively capable than the majority of the team, while also having more room to grow then most of the members, eventually becoming an absolute dodging juggernaut (like Zihark only better, because she doesn't get RNG screwed... well atleast not for me.)

Good bases?

17 strength. That's fucking pathetic for that part of the game. She's gonna lose a lot of attack speed if you want to use any weapon she actually inflicts damage on. Most the other guys in your party do in one attack what she does in two.

High speed and high skill. High skill = whoopty doo, you're more accurate against enemies who won't be dodging you to begin with and have a slightly higher crit chance (but considering she tickles people rather than genuinely hurts them...). High speed = whoopty doo, she's still dealing as much damage in two hits as many of your guys are doing in one (and a lot of them still manage to double attack, go figure.)

She's defensively incompetent. Her dodge isn't even really all that good. Default, she's sitting on 74 avoid due to stats (factoring out things that other members of the GM's get, like Ike's commander bonus) while Gatrie is sitting on 45 and he's got 10 more health and 11 more defense. She dies in two hits from a lot of guys. Why is this a problem with her compared to Rolf? Rolf doesn't need to risk getting hit in order to attack, while Mia is at the mercy of the RNG gods.

She starts out great, ends as one of the best in the game, maxing many stats and easily competing with Edward and Zihark for best swordmaster in the game (except that they made her strength cap a meaningless 1 point less than theirs.)

I might add that if you use her as a frontliner, she is great for supporting Ike (as they will often be near each other... seriously... why aren't they a couple?) And you can even equip her with Daunt, which not only raises her evasion, but the evasion of everyone near her, while also effectively making enemy Thunder Mages (and to a lesser extent, other high critical enemies) worthless.

In all the times I've bother to use Mia, she was rarely near Ike.

Granted, I could stick her near him, but Ike's better off with other supports anyway. He starts with better skill than even Shinon so the +accuracy from Fire is rather pointless, and yeah the +attack is nice (kind of pointless because he kills almost everything you encounter even well into End-Game in a round, but still nice for the few guys that get out with just a handful of HP) but he can get that from Soren or Mist with additional either dodge or defense. I personally do Ike/Soren on a "not doing anything fancy" run because it's canon and I like to keep a ranged guy near my brick walls at any given time.

You can give anyone Daunt. Irrelevant. I have many great arguments towards giving it to other people, anyway.

Of course Wrath and adept are other great options (you basically choose between Adept and Daunt or Adept and Wrath.)

Wrath is semi-pointless because if someone as frail as Mia gets to below 50% HP, I'm going to try and heal her right away.

To give her adept, you'd have to steal it off Soren. I don't know why you'd do that because Adept makes Soren incredible.

She even gets Vantage for free.

Vantage sucks ass. One of the most useless skills in the entire game. I have never had it trigger in a situation where my person couldn't just wait until after the person attacked to make use of my counter. It's only purpose is if there's an enemy who's weak enough that, should vantage trigger, you'd kill it in a hit. Somewhat useful if you're rolling a Killing Edge, but otherwise completely useless on Mia because if there's an enemy she can kill in one blow, it's probably retreating to use a Vulnary or find an enemy healer.

Yep... real useless.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Oh wait. I kind of did say just that earlier.