The Dawn Brigade

[_____]

Crossbows aren't that fail. If you give Shinon a Bow and happen to be next to him to attack another enemy, switch around equipment for Crossbow or whatever, then he'll actually have the ability to counter attack enemies. It's situational but works decently.

If you use one your own turn, it's not a bad idea either; it costs you a kill at best, though.

Where are Axes relevant here?

Also... Rolf is able to hold pretty much any bow early on because Bows are pretty damn light. His base Speed is just relatively low.

Ignoring Strength is pretty fail. 20 damage if you double attack. That's it. :/

He said that Bows were the best weapon type in the game. I begged to differ.

But his base Strength's also pretty bad.

[Saint Nightroad]

Why are lances behind swords?

If you are judging by the wielder, then lances have Nephenee, Aran, and Gatrie... not to mention being wieldable by Jill and Haar.

In other words lances are awesome.

And in the weapon triangle (not relevant to Hard Mode), swords got screwed over (to many lance users in the game.)

Its really like:

Axes>Swords=Lances>>>>>>>Daggers/Knives

Bows are irrelevant.... they are completely situational. You have to play defensively with that character. They aren't good for counter-attacking (don't even mention crossbows.....) You just pick off your foe or weaken them on your turn. They are useful in places where melee weapons are not, but they are also much less useful in other situations.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Chris Lionheart

[Lord Raven]

Ignoring Strength is pretty fail. 20 damage if you double attack. That's it. :/

But if you're doing 20 damage to just about everything on enemy phase, it's actually not that bad a number.

[Reikken]

**

"highest possible critical rate in the game" refers to the fact that he has multiple bond supports.

"ability to use the best weapon in the game" refers to the Double Bow

Edited November 22, 2008 by Reikken

[Saint Nightroad]

"highest possible critical rate in the game" refers to the fact that he has multiple bond supports.

"ability to use the best weapon in the game" refers to the Double Bow

How is the double bow the best weapon in the game?

Weapons must be judged by their wielders, not just their innate stats.

Urvan has Haar who is better than Rolf.

Alondite and the Vague Katti have Edward/Mia/Zihark who frankly are atleast comparable to Rolf.

The Wishblade has Nephenee and Gatrie who are >>>>>Rolf.

Lets not forget Ragnell which has Ike... and can be used as early as Part 3 (earlier than any other SS weapon.)

Okay I'm not going to mention the SS magics... a blessed Purge/Fenrir/Meteor/Blizzard/Bolting is way better than an SS magic.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Chris Lionheart

[Lord Raven]

To be fair, Shinon's offense beats or is on par with Haar's offense once he gets the Double Bow because Shinon has two more range with it and just as much movement, with more power (or just as much?) and just/almost as much strength to accompany it. And a lot more peed.

[Saint Nightroad]

To be fair, Shinon's offense beats or is on par with Haar's offense once he gets the Double Bow because Shinon has two more range with it and just as much movement, with more power (or just as much?) and just/almost as much strength to accompany it. And a lot more peed.

Okay, but Urvan can also be wielded by Nolan and Boyd, who are godly units to say the least.

[Killer Poleax]

Okay, but Urvan can also be wielded by Nolan and Boyd, who are godly units to say the least.

Yeah Nolan and Boyd have the highest strength in the game of all the beroc units. Their speed cap is also higher if only by one point. Haar awesome too but his speed isn't as high (still good enough to get the job done most of the time). I'd say Axes>Lances>Swords>Bows>>>>>>>Knives. The only reason Rolf & Shinon can even match Boyd, Nolan & Haar's strength is cause the Double Bow gives +3 strength. Anyways, they're two completely different playstyles and it really depends how you play the game. Personally, I like putting a strong unit in the middle of a bunch of enemies and watch them all be killed on the enemy phase. Can't do that with Rolf and Shinon since they can't counter direct attacks and crossbows are too weak to one round anything (maybe sages and bishops and flying units but that's it).

[Lord Raven]

crossbows are too weak to one round anything

The point is the ability to do damage on enemy phase, not one round! 20 damage to all enemies on enemy phase is cool as opposed to 0 damage and it's not too hard to manage either, although it requires a bit of going out of your way... I haven't fully tested it though.

[Killer Poleax]

The point is the ability to do damage on enemy phase, not one round! 20 damage to all enemies on enemy phase is cool as opposed to 0 damage and it's not too hard to manage either, although it requires a bit of going out of your way... I haven't fully tested it though.

I guess that's true but unless you want to put Rolf or Shinon out on the frontlines, there's no need to use them. Most of the maps are easy to have Shinon and Rolf behind the front lines and safe from direct attacks. I'll try using crossbows next time cause I've never really needed to. Shinon does have a high defense so giving him one wouldn't hurt but Rolf should stay as a backliner for a while.

[Wisper]

Growths: At the cost of shitty base stats and being stuck to 2-range only because Crossbows are pretty fail.

Stat Caps: Wut? Rolf has 3 atk and 4 def on Mia. That's it.

Class: Arguable. Marksmen are pretty awesome, but they don't get access to the Double Bow, and thus, thier 1~2 range (Unless you like Crossbows. I don't.) until 4-E-1. Mia's got a 20+ Critical and Astra, though both Deadeye and Astra are OHKOs. Rolf gets +15 Critical and and a 2~3 range. Still no 1 range, though, so that hinders his usefulness on the enemy phase. There just aren't that many archers.

Final Average: Sure, he beats her later on, but Mia's useful earlier.

Critical: lolwut? +20 Critical + Killing Edge/Forged Sword + Same Skill cap = +5 more critical chance than Rolf.

Weapon: Axes > Bows. Double Bow's pretty good, but Axes are light, cheap, and pretty damn powerful. Axes > Bows = Swords > Lances.

Second sentence: When are you comparing them? If you're talking about Final Averages, then throw that out the window. BEXP pretty much destroyes FAs in this game. Mia and Shinon are the only GMs doubling consistantly through the early parts of Part 3. Rolf has fail base str, so he's got some pretty bad AS. Also, +9 is the difference between life or death.

Growths: Rolf doesn't have bad bases. They're actually really good. The only one that's below average is 13 defense, but um...Mia starts out with that at level 7.

Stat Caps: Rolf has plus +5 strength. However, bows are much stronger. Rolf with double bow has 61 power at the end of the game, Mia has 49. That's 12 higher, quite a big difference.

Class: Marksman>>>>>Trueblade. They double just as much, and kill and take hits easier.

Critical: With Rolf's bonds, he has the highest possible critical in the game. I believe it is 280 if you do everything correctly. I'm not sure. Oh yeah. Plus he autocrits with a triangle attack.

Weapon: Double Bow "pretty" good. lol. I don't think you know how insane the double bow is. 1-3 range, 22 might and + 3 strength. And lances > swords, btw.

Lol. Rolf has a fail base strength? He starts with 17 AND THAT IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS MIA EXCEPT SHE COMES 7 LEVELS HIGHER! +9 should never be the difference between life and death. If you're a good player, than you won't be sending your units into a group of enemies and hope they dodge everything on hard mode. Especially if that unit is a trueblade.

[Lord Raven]

Rolf doesn't have bad bases. They're actually really good.

For the level. His overall performance is still much to be desired.

With Rolf's bonds, he has the highest possible critical in the game. I believe it is 280 if you do everything correctly. I'm not sure. Oh yeah. Plus he autocrits with a triangle attack.

That entire thing requires going out of the way to setup a huge bond thing just so he can have a huge critical. And triangle attack requires you to go out of your way with Boyd and Oscar; it's not a big deal for Oscar, but it's kind of a big deal for Boyd.

Weapon: Double Bow "pretty" good. lol. I don't think you know how insane the double bow is. 1-3 range, 22 might and + 3 strength. And lances > swords, btw.

Double Bow is only available for the last part of the game which totally doesn't make this point as relevant as you'd want it to be.

(Right now I'm not arguing for Mia because I can't think of an argument past double attacking/evasion; I do believe Mia consistently evades myself especially since there lacks a weapon triangle with lance users in HM, but we'll see how it pans out...)

I guess that's true but unless you want to put Rolf or Shinon out on the frontlines, there's no need to use them. Most of the maps are easy to have Shinon and Rolf behind the front lines and safe from direct attacks. I'll try using crossbows next time cause I've never really needed to. Shinon does have a high defense so giving him one wouldn't hurt but Rolf should stay as a backliner for a while.

Yeah Rolf might need a bit of help before he uses them, but Shinon should be fine. Edited November 22, 2008 by Lord Raven

[Killer Poleax]

Weapon: Double Bow "pretty" good. lol. I don't think you know how insane the double bow is. 1-3 range, 22 might and + 3 strength. And lances > swords, btw.

Double Bow DOES NOT give 3 range. It's only 1-2. Marksmen get an extra range after promoting. And the triangle attack is so inconvient (for me at least). I mean, if you like doing that, that's fine. Usually in my game, the brothers are nowhere near each other. I've never really needed the triangle attack cause all three are just fine without it. Yeah lances > swords.

On Mia vs Rolf, it really depends on your playstyle. I'm not a big fan of either of them but I know they can both be good.

[Lord Raven]

Double bow gives 1-3 range.

[Saint Nightroad]

Double Bow DOES NOT give 3 range. It's only 1-2. Marksmen get an extra range after promoting. And the triangle attack is so inconvient (for me at least). I mean, if you like doing that, that's fine. Usually in my game, the brothers are nowhere near each other. I've never really needed the triangle attack cause all three are just fine without it. Yeah lances > swords.

On Mia vs Rolf, it really depends on your playstyle. I'm not a big fan of either of them but I know they can both be good.

The Triangle attack is a convenient boss killing tool. And if you have a heron, you can trigger it twice (amirite?), which is absolutely devastating towards even strong bosses.

Of course, you could trigger it by unintentionally, but that hasn't happened to me yet.

BTW I've been using Leonardo this time. Either I just ended up really blessed or he is one hell of a marksman.

Lvl 3 Marksman

Hp 48

Str 29

Mag 11

Skill 34

Sp 27

Lck 29

Def 22

Res 20

It was almost a bad thing that I used him XD. This is because he freaking one shotted Nephenee with Deadeye on Part 3 Endgame.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Chris Lionheart

[Reikken]

Double bow gives 1-3 range.

It's 1-2. Marksman class adds the 3. Use it with Astrid or something, and you'll have 1-2 range.

[Lord Raven]

Sorry, I misread XD

I'm just used to using it with the Marksmen.

[Lord Cow-Cow]

why are you talking about rolf vs. mia, I thought this was about the Dawn Brigade. I may have said this already i don't know.

[Kintenbo]

why are you talking about rolf vs. mia, I thought this was about the Dawn Brigade. I may have said this already i don't know.

I think they got off track when someone was trying to convince folks that Leonardo was better than Shinon. Then it turned into Rolf vs. Shinon, and then this.

[Saint Nightroad]

I think they got off track when someone was trying to convince folks that Leonardo was better than Shinon. Then it turned into Rolf vs. Shinon, and then this.

I think Mia came into the picture with a Mia vs. Zihark vs. Edward debate.

Well, my opinion on Leonardo has improved some. I could definitely see him being better than Shinon (and probably better than Rolf) if the RNG treats him well. If it doesn't then Shinon is the better choice. Leonardo definitely wins in the Marksman outfits category lol. At any rate Leonardo>>>>Edward.

[_____]

I think Mia came into the picture with a Mia vs. Zihark vs. Edward debate.

Well, my opinion on Leonardo has improved some. I could definitely see him being better than Shinon (and probably better than Rolf) if the RNG treats him well. If it doesn't then Shinon is the better choice. Leonardo definitely wins in the Marksman outfits category lol. At any rate Leonardo>>>>Edward.

Lies.

[Saint Nightroad]

Lies.

Sorry, but Edward is easily replaced by Zihark. Who's replacing Leonardo? Illyana?!

[_____]

Shinon and Rolf.

Shinon and Rolf > Leonardo.

Mia and Zihark = Edward.

Edited November 23, 2008 by ChaosNinji

[Saint Nightroad]

Shinon and Rolf.

Shinon and Rolf > Leonardo.

Mia and Zihark = Edward.

Nice try, but I'm talking about in the Dawn Brigade, not in the pointless Endgame.

Edward has a terrible beginning, and will probably be replaced by Nolan, Aran, and Sothe in the frontline role very quickly. Then comes Zihark, sealing Eddie's fate.

[_____]

Nice try, but I'm talking about in the Dawn Brigade, not in the pointless Endgame.

Edward has a terrible beginning, and will probably be replaced by Nolan, Aran, and Sothe in the frontline role very quickly. Then comes Zihark, sealing Eddie's fate.

Leo's earlygame is worse. Using your logic, he'll be replaced on the backlines by Micaiah and Ilyana.

Then the fact that he can't counterattck melee units, sealing Leo's fate.