The Dawn Brigade

[Lord Raven]

Did you read Reikken's post? Some Tigers are one rounding her. :E

Also lolwut @ using an iron sword. What happened to forging?

Forgot about its existence lol, I never really forged all that much. Really should though.

I try to use a unit before I judge them. next time you do a RD playthrough, why don't you attempt to use Leo? From the sounds of it, you haven't used him past Part 3.

12 Strength after promotion and he had like 15 or 16 at Level 7 or 8ish. Then I gave up. How's that for "trying"?

[Reikken]

No matter which Marksman you choose, they'll be awesome.

Awesome throughout or awesome by the end? Shinon is awesome right away, especially on hard, where he's one of the only units double-attacking things. I can't say as much for Leonardo or Rolf.

Also, this thing about Meg being doubled in 1-4. She's going to get doubled by cats, but the damage they do isn't great.

Almost half her hp isn't great?

Anyway, she gets two-rounded, just like Edward and Aran.

Did you not notice the mystic jars of healing that dot the lower part? That's perfect for her.

perfect if you want to spend 20+ turns. As is, they don't heal nearly enough to be worth anything. +4 hp, is it? Yeah, that doesn't help.

[sandmanccl]

It depends on what you mean by "stealing". Any combat exp anyone gets is less that's available to others, except in special cases (ex: Micaiah in 1-9).

I would define stealing experience purely in the Jeigan sense. If you're only gaining 5 experience on a kill while others would be getting 30, well, that's "stealing" experience because one guy is only 1/20th closer to gaining a level and the other is about 1/3rd closer towards gaining a level.

If you're genuinely using Leonardo as a valuable member of your team, I'm sorry, I just don't see him as "stealing experience", especially if he's gaining experience independently of the rest of the team like in the situation I described a bit earlier.

Another fun use for archers: When you've plugged up all the holes leading to your softer insides (oh god sexual innuendo makes me feel better about myself), chances are you'll have one of your tank type guys get hit. If it's Nolan with a Steel Axe, he's probably not killing the guy who attacked him but got him pretty darn close to it (in the first couple maps before his strength and speed flip on the god-mode switch). Your turn, finish it off with Leonardo (or Micaiah or Ilyana), you can still move your front lines up. You can still advance your units, because chances are, next round will begin pretty similarly (as in you move your ranged guys up to attack and finish off a guy or two that came forward and you get to reposition your front-liners again without sacrificing a turn to do so).

One last thing about Meg:

Her speed gains are pretty ridiculous. At 65% growth, I wouldn't be surprised to see it increase on her first level up, and even on her second. (For the record, 65% growth rate in speed is higher than Edward's.) You've got BEXP to hand out for the first time before 1-4 begins. Tossing enough to Meg so she'll gain a level the first time she scores a hit will help her avoid being double attacked even by the fast tigers. Even with her 10 base strength, 9 speed is all you need to avoid being doubled by the Tigers with 12 speed, which is a single solitary point away from happening for Meg at base. Once her speed catches up (and it will for Part 1, at least), she's extremely difficult for enemies to even hit because of her also even more ridiculous Luck gains.

Plus her defense is on the higher side for the Dawn Brigade. Great base (level 3 with 10 defense = very yes) and while her growth IS low, there are all of 3 people who join during part 1 with higher growths: Aran, Tauroneo (who probably won't be gaining a level as you will run him around unequipped), and Fiona (who is too much hassle to use unless you really, really, really want to use her).

Edited November 18, 2008 by sandmanccl

[sandmanccl]

12 Strength after promotion and he had like 15 or 16 at Level 7 or 8ish. Then I gave up. How's that for "trying"?

You're one of the biggest proponents I've seen on this site about using averages and averages only for "debating" characters, and now YOU are the one whining about getting RNG screwed?

Sounds to me like you're sore that you've had a Leonardo who was bad for awhile.

16 strength at level 8ish isn't that bad, unless of course you were totally screwed on a bunch of other stats. Was two points of damage at any given time really keeping him from being effective at weakening enemies enough for your other units to kill? I find that hard to believe.

This is why I think it's kind of silly to focus PURELY on the stats of a guy. 2 points behind average is any given stat is manageable (unless you're like 2 points behind in every single stat). You can still make good use of them.

[Mekkah]

I would define stealing experience purely in the Jeigan sense. If you're only gaining 5 experience on a kill while others would be getting 30, well, that's "stealing" experience because one guy is only 1/20th closer to gaining a level and the other is about 1/3rd closer towards gaining a level.

If you're genuinely using Leonardo as a valuable member of your team, I'm sorry, I just don't see him as "stealing experience", especially if he's gaining experience independently of the rest of the team like in the situation I described a bit earlier.

Weird definition of stealing you have there. Let's say we have Sothe, and we have Leonardo, and we have a team that's around Leo's level. Then, we have an enemy both Sothe and Leo can kill. And so can a few others.

Sothe kills it. 5 EXP. How much did everyone else gain? 0.

Leo kills it. 30 EXP. How much did everyone else gain? 0.

Someone else kills it. 30 EXP. How much did everyone else gain? 0.

Sothe is no more stealing EXP than Leo is.

[sandmanccl]

That 5 experience isn't going to help Sothe out in any significant way, while it helps out whichever other member killed it in a big way. They hit a guy and get the killing blow on 4 others, that's a level up. Sothe's going to have to kill 20 guys before he gains a level, which means you're not gaining potentially 5 or 6 level ups throughout the rest of your team. At 5 experience a kill, Sothe is looking at MAYBE two levels in the entirety of part 1 if you OVER USE HIM, something that honestly doesn't help him or your team out very much. By the time he's gaining regular experience, it's fairly easy to use him like any regular unit, and he can easily make up those two levels he could have gained, plus you'll have two or three other viable teammates beside him, greatly strengthening your overall team.

So maybe "stealing" isn't the proper word, but that's how I view this particular situation.

[Reikken]

One last thing about Meg:

Her speed gains are pretty ridiculous. At 65% growth, I wouldn't be surprised to see it increase on her first level up, and even on her second. (For the record, 65% growth rate in speed is higher than Edward's.) You've got BEXP to hand out for the first time before 1-4 begins. Tossing enough to Meg so she'll gain a level the first time she scores a hit will help her avoid being double attacked even by the fast tigers. Even with her 10 base strength, 9 speed is all you need to avoid being doubled by the Tigers with 12 speed, which is a single solitary point away from happening for Meg at base. Once her speed catches up (and it will for Part 1, at least), she's extremely difficult for enemies to even hit because of her also even more ridiculous Luck gains.

Remember that this is about hard mode. You likely don't even have enough bexp to give her a level yet. It takes 400 for her to level up. Beating all the chapters within the maximum bexp limit and having 4 units escape in ch 3 gives you 350.

And her avoid doesn't get high enough to be worth anything at all in part 1. Maybe in part 4?

Plus her defense is on the higher side for the Dawn Brigade. Great base (level 3 with 10 defense = very yes) and while her growth IS low, there are all of 3 people who join during part 1 with higher growths: Aran, Tauroneo (who probably won't be gaining a level as you will run him around unequipped), and Fiona (who is too much hassle to use unless you really, really, really want to use her).

Indeed it is on the high side. But when you take out the ranged attackers, looking only at the meleers, she's about in the middle. Unless you're also counting units that are temporary (Nailah, Tauroneo, etc), in which case it's on the low side.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Reikken

[sandmanccl]

In the middle?

Name a single character on the Dawn Brigade with higher defenses than Meg other than the ones I just listed. (Actually, Fiona has a better growth so she passes up Meg in tier 2, but before then, it's pretty miserable.)

Edward isn't going to catch up. He's tied for growth rate, and has 5 less of a base stat than she does. He's looking at maybe 12 points or so on average +a bonus XP level or two after speed and skill cap.

Nolan isn't going to catch up. Base level 9 with 1 lower base defense than she's got. Pretty much on par with Edward because he doesn't cap anything as a fighter.

Level 14 Meg has 13 or 14 defense (14 rounded), which is a point higher than Jill joining. Yet again, same growth rate. They are pretty much equal. (Edge going to Jill simply in that she doesn't require any effort to get to 14, but still.)

Zihark is already a level 3 promoted unit with only 13 defense and it only increases, on average, once in every 4 levels. He's not exactly defensively competant. Plus he kills everything you run into for awhile (meaning you can't have 3 people hit it to help spread experience throughout your team). I'm not a fan of Zihark.

Not gonna bother talking about Vika and Muarim because laguz. That you get for like 3 maps. That don't gain any experience (well, hardly any.)

So we've got Meg. Tied for 3rd most defensively competent character in the Dawn Brigade, behind a guy tied for best defense growth rate in the entire game (Aran is tied with Renning, but Renning doesn't even really matter here as he only has 4 levels to possibly gain) and the Jeigan unit (high level promoted unit with sub-par stats for their level but totally kicks ass at the game's intro) who is only usable for a map with two sections. And she's tied with the group's flier.

Plus Meg's got ridiculous dodge as she's one of the DB's faster units (until she hits Sword General's crappy cap) and has ridiculously high luck.

ALSO LASTLY in regards to your comment about Hard Mode, you can dump all your BEXP from the first few stages into Meg to get her to about 70 XP towards level 4. That's still a few hits or just a kill away from a level up, which is all you need to keep her from being double-attacked by the faster tigers. My point is that she's only getting double attacked in that stage before her first level gain, something you can accomplish quite fast should you choose to do so.

[Reikken]

In the middle?

Name a single character on the Dawn Brigade with higher defenses than Meg other than the ones I just listed. (Actually, Fiona has a better growth so she passes up Meg in tier 2, but before then, it's pretty miserable.)

Jill and Sothe have better

Volug and Zihark are borderline/same

Including temporaries, then all of those also have better.

Defenses? You mean like including hp, etc? Then Nolan as well, and Volug goes into the ridiculously-better category.

ALSO LASTLY in regards to your comment about Hard Mode, you can dump all your BEXP from the first few stages into Meg to get her to about 70 XP towards level 4. That's still a few hits or just a kill away from a level up, which is all you need to keep her from being double-attacked by the faster tigers. My point is that she's only getting double attacked in that stage before her first level gain, something you can accomplish quite fast should you choose to do so.

100% chance to get doubled starting out, 35% chance to get doubled after a level up

Edited November 18, 2008 by Reikken

[Mekkah]

That 5 experience isn't going to help Sothe out in any significant way, while it helps out whichever other member killed it in a big way.

That doesn't mean he's taking away more from the team. It just means he doesn't grow as fast as others. But that's hardly a point against him when he's better than everyone else for nearly entire pt 1.

[sandmanccl]

Mekkah, you've said yourself you have yet to play the game. "Better" in part 1 doesn't mean you should use him very much in part 1. You've got nearly the entire game to get him to level 20 as a rogue, so it's much, much, much more important to level up your other units while you have the chance. Considering how difficult many of the Part 3 dawn brigade chapters can be because of how hard it is to spread the experience around to keep everyone viable, Sothe gaining combat experience in part 1 is a severe detriment to your overall well-being for the course of the game.

Do you let Seth steal all the kills in FE8 in the game's beginning, or do you just use him for those "oh shit" situations where you really need to take out a guy so they don't kill your weaker guys on your turn? My guess is that you use him lightly for the first bit of the game so you can allow other good units time to raise up so they can start to hold their own. It's a little different in this situation simply because you have until the end of time to get Sothe to 20 before the game auto-promotes him (so it goes doubly so for Sothe, actually), but I hope you get my point.

For your side, you should be arguing Zihark rather than Sothe because the argument makes a little more sense.

Back to Reikken:

Meg has more HP than Jill at the expense of 1 defense (and if you don't pair Meg up with a Water, Thunder, or Light affinity, then Jill will have another 2 point advantage at A-level supports near her partner). Meg also has better speed until she's limited by her Tier 2 cap, and has incredible luck so she's dodging better (if only slightly). In fact, the only stat they have a pretty big differential in is resistance (Meg is the clear winner). Hence, my opinion that they are equal on the defensive front.

Sothe does have better defenses for when it matters most, I'll give you that. I suppose I didn't think to include him because taking him with you is not a choice, and his usefulness is independent of his ability to tank for the team. I guess that bumps Meg and Jill down another peg on defensively capable units for the Dawn Brigade.

Nolan has like a minute HP lead on Meg. Equivalent levels, you're dealing with a 5 point spread, but Meg's defense is better than Nolan's by roughly 3. It's not too difficult to catch her up in levels to Nolan, especially because she's gaining slightly more XP a kill and the concept of bonus experience throws "guaranteed levels" on any given stage out the window. Meg also has better speed for quite awhile, and has way better luck than Nolan for a super long time. Oh, and before I forget, she beats him in resistance pretty handily too.

Zihark is about the same as Meg by the time he joins assuming you've used her. The difference she grows in defense better than he does, and she gains experience at a much more furious rate seeing as he's already promoted. He can't dodge shit until his support gets up there, and for all we know, you're supporting Meg with that (it makes plenty of sense to do so). Meg's also got slightly better HP than Zihark, eventually. (Not so much it makes a whole helluva lot of difference.)

Volug, well, I guess I didn't consider him for the same reasons I didn't really consider Sothe except to the nth degree. He's going to be gaining 1 experience even on a kill, even on many of the bosses. He's also fast and strong enough that he's going to get that kill, which is an overall detriment to your ability to survive in Part 3 because he still probably won't have gained a single level by the time you exit Part 1. It is true that he's more defensively capable than any other DB person if you factor in HP, speed, luck, and defense.

[Lord Raven]

Jill is mounted and does a ton more damage, though. And axes are more cost friendly.

You're one of the biggest proponents I've seen on this site about using averages and averages only for "debating" characters, and now YOU are the one whining about getting RNG screwed?

Sounds to me like you're sore that you've had a Leonardo who was bad for awhile.

This was even after I've concluded that Leonardo was shitty. You're telling me to try him out and I did, and Leonardo ended up pretty damn bad.

I'm pretty sure his Speed hit 12 or 13 at best, too.

Try leveling him up on Normal and Hard modes, also. That is a challenge, and is a lot on the inconvenient side to be worthwhile especially since you have Shinon to use the Double Bow anyway.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Lord Raven

[CGV]

Skipping all this... I like the DB. Sure they're not that strong compared to the other groups, but they can get the job done. They have a nice variety of units whereas Geoffery's group has four paladins....

[sandmanccl]

Jill is mounted and does a ton more damage, though. And axes are more cost friendly.

Firstly, offense is irrelevant to how defensibly capable a unit is. Secondly, a "ton" more damage is a matter of when we're talking seeing as Jill won't catch up to strength on a level equivalent Meg until level 20/20. Jill's faster halfway into tier 2, but only because she's got a better stat cap (and even then only by 3).

This was even after I've concluded that Leonardo was shitty. You're telling me to try him out and I did, and Leonardo ended up pretty damn bad.

I'm pretty sure his Speed hit 12 or 13 at best, too.

Try leveling him up on Normal and Hard modes, also. That is a challenge, and is a lot on the inconvenient side to be worthwhile especially since you have Shinon to use the Double Bow anyway.

So basically,

You decided someone was bad and when they turned up worse than expected, you signed and passed the bill?

Based off one series where he's not up to your own standards of how to argue if a character is good or not?

In that case, Gareth is the best unit in FE10 because this one time, he maxed every stat.

additional:

I have yet to play Easy mode, and will never play easy mode. It's just not fun for me. Leonardo was one of my better guys in the DB on my Hard Mode playthrough simply because attacking without fear of counter-attack is a necessity for Hard Mode. He got dumped at Part 4 because I only got two DB guys to tier 3 by then, but he served a purpose.

I usually play normal. Hard Mode eliminates a lot of the fun for me because the weapon triangle adds additional strategy, rather than simply having the guy with the biggest numbers run out and do everything on his own.

And I didn't field Shinon on Hard, same reason I never field him. Rolf is better in my eyes, and I like the rest of the GM units too much to bother with him. He's good but hardly a necessity.

Edited November 19, 2008 by sandmanccl

[Destiny Hero]

I like Chuck Norris, but Eddy and Leo got jipped.

[CGV]

I like Chuck Norris, but Eddy and Leo got jipped.

I never understand why people hate eddie or think he sucks...

He has an 85 hp growth, 60 str, 65 skl, 60 spd and 50 lck, plus a not-too-bad def growth of 35

[Saint Nightroad]

To answer a previous argument, I have indeed given Leo a chance before, and it was pretty bad. His speed was to low to double (as a Sniper) and his strength and defenses were mediocre.

Just to be fair, I'm giving him a second chance. This time around he seems to be unusually blessed (level 13 with 23 health, 13 str, 19 skill, 15 sp, 11 Lck, 11 Def, and 9 Res.)

Oddly, my Aran (who usually ends up with horrible speed and skill in my experience), is also turning out extremely blessed.

And to add to it, this is hands down the best Micaiah I have ever had so far (her speed is leveling up unusually well.)

Edited November 19, 2008 by Chris Lionheart

[Kintenbo]

I never understand why people hate eddie or think he sucks...

He has an 85 hp growth, 60 str, 65 skl, 60 spd and 50 lck, plus a not-too-bad def growth of 35

It's the base defense that people are all down on. In Hard Mode, without the weapon triangle to save his hide, he'll get hit alot in the beginning, along with the others. I say he does get pretty good as time goes on, but some people are turned off by his beginning. That defense is his main problem, but everything else that isn't resistance is swell.

[Saaji]

I never understand why people hate eddie or think he sucks...

He has an 85 hp growth, 60 str, 65 skl, 60 spd and 50 lck, plus a not-too-bad def growth of 35

It's because until he reaches level 15ish[i'm being kind with number] he's as frail as can be for a frontline fighter. When your frontline isn't pushing the advance because you have spend every other turn making sure Eddie's at full health cause your still afraid of him getting 2 or 3 shotted he loses his edge. Perhaps in any other fire emblem joining as early as he does with his growth rates Edward would be considered an amazing character but when he fails to do what he's supposed to do for the party he just doesn't look very helpful ya dig?

Unlike other fire emblems the enemies here have some offense so its not so much about having the crazy awesome offensive but whether you have some defensive to compliment that offensive.

Let's make a quick comparison with one of his bigger rivals for his role, Zihark. Sure at an equal level Edward is probably gonna have the superior offensive and not much worse defensive but A) hes very unlikely to close that gap by the time Zihark joins and B ) That beautiful paragon you get that most of your units can use Zihark can use and thus gain pretty good experience... though he fights with Sothe for that paragon and anyone else that manages to get to Tier 2.

If part one had more chapters that didnt smack around our poor dawn brigade and allowed them to get more experience then they would be quite awesome. Well Edward would be considered a bit better IMHO. Stuff 2 more chapters before Zihark appears that allow Edward to abuse the WT in his favor then he'd probably get a little stronger and more reliable.

The most underrated DB member I believe is Aran, he does start a little slugish but didnt Nephenee do the same thing in PoR, also once he hits Tier 2 he quickly becomes a good candidate for Bexp abuse with his over kill str skl and def whichs helps his poor speed.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Saaji

[_____]

To answer a previous argument, I have indeed given Leo a chance before, and it was pretty bad. His speed was to low to double (as a Sniper) and his strength and defenses were mediocre.

Just to be fair, I'm giving him a second chance. This time around he seems to be unusually blessed (level 13 with 23 health, 13 str, 19 skill, 15 sp, 11 Lck, 11 Def, and 9 Res.)

Oddly, my Aran (who usually ends up with horrible speed and skill in my experience), is also turning out extremely blessed.

And to add to it, this is hands down the best Micaiah I have ever had so far (her speed is leveling up unusually well.)

75% Skill growth, man.

[CGV]

I guess I see now why people hate eddie...

[Saint Nightroad]

75% Skill growth, man.

I know... funny isn't it. Usually he ends up with low accuracy even as a halberdier (for me).

My game copy is just weird. Mia always ends up as the friggin queen of swords and Eddie never turns out as well stat wise (both at 20/20/20).

[Saaji]

All the True Blades have similar end game stats aside Lucia whos the stinker of the group and she still usable if you try.

Though in pure stats I'll say Edward does end nice reliable but his Achilles heel is his unreliable start.

Now someone I enjoy trying to use but never have turn out that great for me is Nolan. On paper he looks pretty good, great growths all round except Hp Strength and Defense which are all acceptable growths just not amazing growths but for me he seems to only grow Hp Skill and which isnt really bad per say but, not great. He pretty much gets benched all the time since my Boyd's usually grow quite well.

If he didnt get Tarvos he'd be completely unusable in part IMHO.

Looking at Leo if you took away some of that overkill skill growth % and put a little on his speed, and take a little away from his res and put it on his str he'd be amazing. You +10% to his Str -15% to skill + 15% to Spd and -10% to res

He'd look something like this

HP 60

Str 50

Mag 15

Skl 60

Spd 50

Lck 65

Def 35

Res 45

That would be the sex wouldnt it... Leo has a high total % growth rate but just poorly spread out :(

[sandmanccl]

As I said before, "if your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle."

Unless you can hack the game, Leo's got the growths that he's got and wishing they were different (on any unit, not just him) is, like. Silly.

[Kintenbo]

Now someone I enjoy trying to use but never have turn out that great for me is Nolan. On paper he looks pretty good, great growths all round except Hp Strength and Defense which are all acceptable growths just not amazing growths but for me he seems to only grow Hp Skill and which isnt really bad per say but, not great. He pretty much gets benched all the time since my Boyd's usually grow quite well.

If he didnt get Tarvos he'd be completely unusable in part IMHO.

For what it's worth, my Nolan has a perfect record of maxing every single stat, even before reaching 20/20/20. (I've beat it around 10 or more times) Not even unmaxed in Magic. But that doesn't count for much. He's still great when speaking average stats.