What are your thoughts on Edelgard? *SPOILERS*

[Crysta]

Okay just explain why you think the choice of making Rodrigue's death be the sole turning point in Dimitri's built-up character arc is actually good writing - beyond just that being the tool (a subpar one imo) the writers opted to use. How the scene actually unfolds is actually minor to me by comparison; you're right, it just requires a few minor changes to make it more believable.

Death can be done well, but like Loog pointed out, his reaction doesn't jive with the rest of the story before that. We're critiquing writing as is and what it's already told us about Dimitri.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Crysta

[Kiran_]

1 hour ago, Nihilem said:

Might given me a list of all the sins Rhea had commited that made her deserved cruel death (for her and her entire race)? From before the time skip I mean. Preferable with quotes from the game so I can also look them up. Because all I came up with is:

- Lying - notourisly to hide things that could hurt her, which allowed some bad people to get quite powerful positions.

- Not actively going to continent wide war to stop the Nobles from abusing their power. She has opposed them verbally however.

- Executing people that tried to kill her

- beeing a really scary lizard

Because I have the feeling most highly exagerating the evil that she has done to excuse the continent wide war with uncountable death, becoming orphans or losing children, friends, lovers....

If only there would be a person who is known to care for the weakest amoung the humans, like the orphans for example ...... oh wait I know one ....

Did you forget she experimented on humans to revive her mother or .... are we just pretending she didn't do that? Are we ignoring that when Seteth called her out for her experiments, and she just dismissed it?

Are we ignoring that she executed people without even a second thought to what was really going on. She goes into blind rages when someone challenges her, instead of dealing with the TWSITD (aka: the entire Western Church nonsense), even though she knew who they were having battled them a long time ago.

Or how pre time-skip she's like, "I'm sending the students so they can see how foolish it would be to turn their blades against the Church". The church that is false and only there as an excuse for her to try to revive her mother? Someone who tries to rip your heart out and calls you a failed experiment because you simply don't agree with her? A religion that's entirely made up?

Or how she entirely rewrote history, hiding the existence of so many things and rewriting over the origins of crest and relics which is exactly HOW humans got to such a bad place in the first place. And all of this bloodshed and suffering for what? To revive her mother?  Like of COURSE she's taking in orphans and those who have fallen victim to the system. It's honestly the LEAST she could do.

And are we ignoring her violent streak when people "oppose the Goddess" aka, a false deity she created.

It's almost as if you're being purposefully ignorant of the things Rhea did. There's no exaggeration necessary. Is Rhea like ... some huge evil? No, I don't think so and she definitely has good things she's done. She's very gray in a lot of aspects, which I appreciate. The fact that I DO hate her, I think is a testament to how powerful and well-written she is as a character. But I personally find the things she did revolting, so there's no exaggerating necessary for me. She treats you like a host body, and she entirely acted out of selfish, immature desires. Most people experience grief and move on. Not create a lock hold over an entire race. Only in her route, plus S supporting her does she realize how awful she is, because otherwise she's been doing this for an UNTOLD amount of time.

The continent wide war was a direct result of Rhea. There's no denying it. Was it the best SOLUTION? That is another topic that I think can easily be argued either way. But at the end of the day, Rhea rewriting history, being so focused on reviving her mother and not dealing with TWSITD and letting humans create a veryyyy corrupt noble system around crests when's he was supposed to be 'guiding humans', all led to the eventual war that Edelgard started. 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Kiran_

[Crysta]

For the Edelgard vs. Rhea debate, I think people pick and choose which evil they're more offended by. But all the lives lost before Edelgard's war are just as valid as the ones lost in it, and I suspect Rhea has a much higher body count.

I always found it striking that in spite of Cyril being utterly devoted to her, we don't actually see any on-screen interaction between the two and Rhea never really mentions him ever.

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

I'm actually shocked people can't love both Edelgard and Dimitri. Because I simply adore both characters.

 

Just for the record, I'm definitely the same!

 

I liked Rodrigue's death scene (though it's not the best-directed scene in the game, it's great narratively) and I somewhat wonder if its detractors missed the point of it? It's not just that he died (which I agree, wouldn't have been enough to jar Dimitri from his current path; in fact, it could easily have reinforced it, adding to the layers of grief piled onto him), it's how he died. He was killed by someone who reminded Dimitri all too much of himself, someone who had lost everything and was consumed by revenge. Dimitri, despite all his strength, makes no effort to stop her; he intends to die because he thinks he deserves it. So when Rodrigue dies instead, an innocent casualty of single-minded, murderous drive for revenge (both Dimitri's and Fleche's), it finally helps him realize that he's been going down the wrong path. (And yes, he knows how terribly he has behaved so of course he wants to atone.)

I think the scene works even better if you do Dedue's paralogue, because then it becomes a second major event following Dedue's return to help Dimitri return to the light.

[CyberNinja]

4 hours ago, Crysta said:

For the Edelgard vs. Rhea debate, I think people pick and choose which evil they're more offended by. But all the lives lost before Edelgard's war are just as valid as the ones lost in it, and I suspect Rhea has a much higher body count.

I always found it striking that in spite of Cyril being utterly devoted to her, we don't actually see any on-screen interaction between the two and Rhea never really mentions him ever.

Honestly, you can oppose Rhea on the grounds that she truly has little regard for humanity and simply collects devoted followers because they are useful agents for her. You can consider any illegitimate guide for humanity for that very reason even if you disagree with the logic Edelgard used to come to it. It was actually the supports with her, and the utter lack of her having supports with anyone else that tipped the scales on my opinion of her my first run.

Edited September 17, 2019 by CyberNinja

[ZeManaphy]

For those of you wondering about  the death of Rodrigue and its significance, there are two parts: Fleche and Rodrigue's words. Fleche is similar Dimitri in the way that they are both characters who are blinded by the thought of revenge for the sake of their loved ones- So Fleche tries to assasinate Dimitri in response to him killing her brother- full of vengeance, which is Dimtri's current attitude of Edelgard. When she fails to kill him and gets killed herself, its a warning for Dimitri not to walk the same path of Fleche, for he will die in vain. Rodrigue's final words alongside Byleth repeating them and reaching for his hand his when Dimitri realizes to stop living to avenge the dead, but  rather to live for himself. 

[Crysta]

I think we know what they were trying to show. The debate is whether or not that was the best way to teach that lesson, and whether or not Dimitri flipping like a switch is realistic given his clear mental health issues.

 

[Beowls]

8 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Did you forget she experimented on humans to revive her mother or .... are we just pretending she didn't do that? Are we ignoring that when Seteth called her out for her experiments, and she just dismissed it?

Are we ignoring that she executed people without even a second thought to what was really going on. She goes into blind rages when someone challenges her, instead of dealing with the TWSITD (aka: the entire Western Church nonsense), even though she knew who they were having battled them a long time ago.

Or how pre time-skip she's like, "I'm sending the students so they can see how foolish it would be to turn their blades against the Church". The church that is false and only there as an excuse for her to try to revive her mother? Someone who tries to rip your heart out and calls you a failed experiment because you simply don't agree with her? A religion that's entirely made up?

Or how she entirely rewrote history, hiding the existence of so many things and rewriting over the origins of crest and relics which is exactly HOW humans got to such a bad place in the first place. And all of this bloodshed and suffering for what? To revive her mother?  Like of COURSE she's taking in orphans and those who have fallen victim to the system. It's honestly the LEAST she could do.

And are we ignoring her violent streak when people "oppose the Goddess" aka, a false deity she created.

It's almost as if you're being purposefully ignorant of the things Rhea did. There's no exaggeration necessary. Is Rhea like ... some huge evil? No, I don't think so and she definitely has good things she's done. She's very gray in a lot of aspects, which I appreciate. The fact that I DO hate her, I think is a testament to how powerful and well-written she is as a character. But I personally find the things she did revolting, so there's no exaggerating necessary for me. She treats you like a host body, and she entirely acted out of selfish, immature desires. Most people experience grief and move on. Not create a lock hold over an entire race. Only in her route, plus S supporting her does she realize how awful she is, because otherwise she's been doing this for an UNTOLD amount of time.

The continent wide war was a direct result of Rhea. There's no denying it. Was it the best SOLUTION? That is another topic that I think can easily be argued either way. But at the end of the day, Rhea rewriting history, being so focused on reviving her mother and not dealing with TWSITD and letting humans create a veryyyy corrupt noble system around crests when's he was supposed to be 'guiding humans', all led to the eventual war that Edelgard started. 

Evil or rational?

Humans in Rhea's eyes are violent animals and their actions speak for it.

They experimented on her species and used them as raw materials for weaponry and genetic engineering.

They performed an unprovoked extermination/genocide driven by the desire to gain power to combat some unconfirmed reason (either external threat or simply manipulated by TWSID).

From a  perspective that all humans are capable of committing these acts and bear within them the desire to do so (fear of the other /greed for power) her actions make complete rational sense.

After defeating Nemesis she co-opted the remaining elites (taking advantage of their desire for power most likely) into a feudal system that perpetually granted them and their offspring eternal lordship over their subjects. The new church  Rhea would create,  would spin a story of divine right to justify this noble privilege and in return they would pay lip service to their great benefactor (Sothis) and thus empower Rhea to shape the values and beliefs of Fodlan.

The specific beliefs are not detailed greatly but its noted Sothis is an arbiter of souls implying a concept of sin, meaning there are actions the church sanctions against. We are never able to read a bible/koran equivalent of commandments but its logical the religion would preach piety, tolerance, compassion and salvation/forgiveness for those that adhere to and follow the teachings of Seiros. These are not only good qualities that provide Rhea moral authority and legitimacy (taking in orphans - planned possibly) but they rein in some of the tendencies of humans (greed, lust, etc) which would have driven those that committed the Red Canyon Tragedy.

That is, the most logical pathway to ensure such a tragedy does not occur is as you put it to create a "lock hold" on all possible perpetrators (namely humanity) that inhabit the "wayward land - Rhea". The religious apparatus controls the thinking of Fodlan whilst the political structure of feudalism limits and controls the actions of Fodlan.

As to the human experimentation that you view with disdain, might i say we humans experiment on animals for a variety of reasons both farcical (cosmetics) and beneficial (medicines).We rationalize the harm we cause to them as either they are 'lesser' or in the case of medicine we do it for a greater cause (though only for benefit of humans) Its not a stretch to say Rhea thinks along similar lines, bringing back a divine being that can bend time and reality to her will would surely end all war and suffering, no?

As to the fault she bears for the subsequent war, one could argue she could have avoided it by simply killing Edelgard and replacing with a more pliant noble to perpetuate the system. A system that's lasted for 1000 years isn't going anywhere anytime soon if the feudal lords stay true to their devil's bargain with the church. 

 

[Strullemia]

I always found the whole genocide Seiros plot point a bit odd considering:

Quote

The people of Agartha once coexisted with the Nabateans, the children of the Goddess, but eventually turned away from the Goddess's protection and dedicated themselves to the advancement of technology for their prosperity. In time, they became greedy, arrogant, and imperialistic, eventually challenging the Goddess herself for dominance. The Goddess's daughter Seiros warred with the Agarthans and destroyed their nation for their hubris, but Fódlan was so devastated by the conflict that the Goddess was forced to expend most of her energy to heal it, and then fell into a long slumber in her Holy Tomb at Zanado. The surviving Agarthans retreated underground and their descendants became Those Who Slither in the Dark, who would devote centuries to plotting their revenge.

Wouldn't it imply that because Seiros her war caused a race of people that probably numbered in the millions to go underground that she also committed genocide? You don't need to kill every single person of a race for it to count as a genocide after all.

[Beowls]

47 minutes ago, Hekselka said:

I always found the whole genocide Seiros plot point a bit odd considering:

Wouldn't it imply that because Seiros her war caused a race of people that probably numbered in the millions to go underground that she also committed genocide? You don't need to kill every single person of a race for it to count as a genocide after all.

Mass culling/extermination is probably the right term, since humanity did survive on the surface meaning she let them live.

As if she had genocidal intentions humanity would only survive under ground as all those above ground would be killed. 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Beowls

[Strullemia]

36 minutes ago, Beowls said:

Mass culling/extermination is probably the right term, since humanity did survive on the surface meaning she let them live.

As if she had genocidal intentions humanity would only survive under ground as all those above ground would be killed. 

 

 

I know this isn’t super clear in the game but aren’t the agarthans a different race of humans?

[Beowls]

1 hour ago, Hekselka said:

I know this isn’t super clear in the game but aren’t the agarthans a different race of humans?

Why do you think that? 

Long periods spent underground does make their appearance look different but they seem pretty human in their physique. 

In fact some point to the russian text in Shambahla to imply the Agarthans represent some analogue of modern humanity reduced to bunker life post nuclear war.

[Strullemia]

1 minute ago, Beowls said:

Why do you think that? 

Long periods spent underground does make their appearance look different but they seem pretty human in their physique. 

In fact some point to the russian text in Shambahla to imply the Agarthans represent some analogue of modern humanity reduced to bunker life post nuclear war.

Because normal humans can’t possess the body of another human, only the Agarthans can do that. At least I don’t remember the game saying they can.

I thought about the reason for their look being due them living underground but the game never adresses this. It’s why I really think we need prequel dlc.

[Crysta]

Pretty sure that was shapeshifting more than outright possession?

 

[redlight]

Seems like it was some kind of magic or they wear skin tight costumes

[Strullemia]

32 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Pretty sure that was shapeshifting more than outright possession?

 

Shapeshifting right that makes more sense. Still doesn’t change that at no point anyone else aside from the agarthans use it.

[CyberNinja]

17 minutes ago, Hekselka said:

Shapeshifting right that makes more sense. Still doesn’t change that at no point anyone else aside from the agarthans use it.

That's because the agrthans are dark mages with 1000+ years to refine their centuries head start in magic and technology over other humans. They are literally Fire Emblem Enclave, post nuclear war and all.

[Strullemia]

53 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

That's because the agrthans are dark mages with 1000+ years to refine their centuries head start in magic and technology over other humans. They are literally Fire Emblem Enclave, post nuclear war and all.

I can get behind that part but I still think their physical changes are rather odd. It’s one thing for their eyes to change but they don’t really look like humans that spent their life underground. It looks more like they were some experiments and as long as the game doesn’t tell us their exact situation I’m not sure what to think.

———

It also doesn’t make things a lot better when ypu think of Agarthans as a sub-race of humans.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Hekselka

[Troykv]

It's probably a mix of lack of sunlight and Dark Magic enhacements

[CyberNinja]

5 minutes ago, Troykv said:

It's probably a mix of lack of sunlight and Dark Magic enhacements

They all apparently have crest stones or some dark variant embedded in their bodies plus the high tech environment suggests they're living in their own toxic runoff, I'd be surprised if their bodies didn't look ravaged.

[Diovani Bressan]

Ok, I got pretty disgusted by a specific attitude from Evilgard: She lied about what happened in Arianrhod to her soldiers/classmates.

Evilgard lying, sayng that what happened in Arianrhod (the javelins of light) was the church , when the truth is that it was her Uncle and Those Who Slither in the Dark, bothers me.

This attitude made me don't like even more! In my opinion, she is such an unlikeable character...

I am feeling like I am playing Fates: Conquest all over again... which I feels that following this path is wrong!

[Ivan Tridelan]

17 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Ok, I got pretty disgusted by a specific attitude from Evilgard: She lied about what happened in Arianrhod to her soldiers/classmates.

Evilgard lying, sayng that what happened in Arianrhod (the javelins of light) was the church , when the truth is that it was her Uncle and Those Who Slither in the Dark, bothers me.

This attitude made me don't like even more! In my opinion, she is such an unlikeable character...

I am feeling like I am playing Fates: Conquest all over again... which I feels that following this path is wrong!

Actually, I think this would be a great opportunity to fit in at least one more chapter in a route that needs them. Publicly she blames the Church, however after Tailtean Plains, while the Kingdom army is more or less dead and the Church is on its last legs, Edelgard reveals solely to the BE Strike Force the truth of TWS and their destruction of Arianrhod was simply to warn her not to kill their agents. They then go and wipe out Shambala (in VW Hubert finds the location of Shambala precisely because TWS tried to wipe out Byelth and his forces in Fort Merceus with the Javelins of Light), before concluding the route with the epic showdown against Rhea.

[Kiran_]

10 hours ago, Beowls said:

Evil or rational?

Humans in Rhea's eyes are violent animals and their actions speak for it.

They experimented on her species and used them as raw materials for weaponry and genetic engineering.

They performed an unprovoked extermination/genocide driven by the desire to gain power to combat some unconfirmed reason (either external threat or simply manipulated by TWSID).

From a  perspective that all humans are capable of committing these acts and bear within them the desire to do so (fear of the other /greed for power) her actions make complete rational sense.

The specific beliefs are not detailed greatly but its noted Sothis is an arbiter of souls implying a concept of sin, meaning there are actions the church sanctions against. We are never able to read a bible/koran equivalent of commandments but its logical the religion would preach piety, tolerance, compassion and salvation/forgiveness for those that adhere to and follow the teachings of Seiros. These are not only good qualities that provide Rhea moral authority and legitimacy (taking in orphans - planned possibly) but they rein in some of the tendencies of humans (greed, lust, etc) which would have driven those that committed the Red Canyon Tragedy.

That is, the most logical pathway to ensure such a tragedy does not occur is as you put it to create a "lock hold" on all possible perpetrators (namely humanity) that inhabit the "wayward land - Rhea". The religious apparatus controls the thinking of Fodlan whilst the political structure of feudalism limits and controls the actions of Fodlan.

As to the human experimentation that you view with disdain, might i say we humans experiment on animals for a variety of reasons both farcical (cosmetics) and beneficial (medicines).We rationalize the harm we cause to them as either they are 'lesser' or in the case of medicine we do it for a greater cause (though only for benefit of humans) Its not a stretch to say Rhea thinks along similar lines, bringing back a divine being that can bend time and reality to her will would surely end all war and suffering, no?

As to the fault she bears for the subsequent war, one could argue she could have avoided it by simply killing Edelgard and replacing with a more pliant noble to perpetuate the system. A system that's lasted for 1000 years isn't going anywhere anytime soon if the feudal lords stay true to their devil's bargain with the church. 

 

I think to Rhea it is rational. But I think overall it is wrong. Things can be both rational, evil and wrong. They can also be rational, evil and right. It's all a matter of perspective.

Humans in HER eyes. This is no longer a rational thought, it is simply a misguided prejudice. That's the equivalent of saying in a racist's eyes all BLANK race are animals. Which we've seen throughout history that people do and look what happens out of that. From a perspective that all BLANK race are meant to be servants because they are not capable of thought, that means slavery makes perfectly rational sense.

For specific beliefs, only RHEA says she's an arbiter of souls. This is how she exerted her control. Religion itself is a means of instilling fear and control on others. There is no concept of 'sin' aside from what Rhea herself creates, which is painfully obvious when it is revealed that really Sothis is—in lack of better terms—an alien. And those are her alien children (lol, this makes me giggle). Also funny, because Sothis, Rhea and the others also exhibit tendencies of humans. Arrogance. Hubris. Greed. Wrath. 

I'm not sure why you think I'm okay with experimenting on animals, but .... okay? And also, Sothis has limits to her power as shown. And even when she WAS alive, clearly war and suffering where still very much a part of existence or the war wouldn't have happened in the first place.

But the system was broken. I don't think she bears ALL responsibility for the war, but I think it was only a matter of time before the system broke. In this case, the person who broke the system also happened to believe blood and war was the only solution (which is arguably both rational and evil as well). 

[Nihilem]

7 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Did you forget she experimented on humans to revive her mother or .... are we just pretending she didn't do that? Are we ignoring that when Seteth called her out for her experiments, and she just dismissed it?

Oh you are misinterpreting my intentions. I dont want to defend or forget anything, I want to learn. Thats why I asked for quotes. Because I have come to the conclusion that most discussion about this topic (or when discussing Edelgards action) are based on feelings and baseless speculation instead of whats actually going on in the game. So I would be happy when you tell me where i can find the evidence to support your claims. In return I will try to do so myself.

To this specific topic I know that she cloned people. "Experimenting" on people implies that the process causes heavy agony and pain (see support with Edelgard and Lysenthia who were really experimented on). Do we have any quote that something like that happened? 

On the other side from the dialoge with Jeralt (unfortunately I dont remember the chater) we know that Byleths Mother was a nun at the Monastery. Thats makes it highly unlikely that she was tortured or had to endure painful experimentation as she would probably run away if that was the case. Also Jeralt (her husband) has never mentioned anything about that and would most likely never allow his son/daughter to be a teacher there if his/her mother would had to endure horrifing experimentation there.

So, If its only cloning I dont even know if it would be illegal in the country i currently life in. But for sure you dont get death penalty for doing it.

 

7 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Are we ignoring that she executed people without even a second thought to what was really going on. She goes into blind rages when someone challenges her, instead of dealing with the TWSITD (aka: the entire Western Church nonsense), even though she knew who they were having battled them a long time ago.

Or how pre time-skip she's like, "I'm sending the students so they can see how foolish it would be to turn their blades against the Church". The church that is false and only there as an excuse for her to try to revive her mother? Someone who tries to rip your heart out and calls you a failed experiment because you simply don't agree with her? A religion that's entirely made up?

And you think that Edelgard - if we she were in the same position - wouldnt do exactly the same thing? No we actually know what she would do - she lets Hubert deal with it. We can clearly see that in her A Support with Hubert where he admits getting rid of assassins for her and she only requests to tell her that - never to stop doing it.

In the same Support it is also mentioned, that she as the emperor has the right to execute anyone (or at least anyone with official duties) if they refuse to follow order. No court mentioned. So it seems to me that human rights are not really a thing in fodlan and death penalties much more the norm then in our modern society. It is quite likely to assume that the Arch Bishop has similiar privileges as the emperor at least in Garreg Mach - where she is a de facto ruler of the city state. And if the refusal to follow orders is punished with execution the the (attempted) assassination of the public figure will not have a milder penalty. Therefore her actions, while surely barbaric from our perspective, dont seem to be that uncommon in fodlan.

 

7 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

 Someone who tries to rip your heart out and calls you a failed experiment because you simply don't agree with her? A religion that's entirely made up?

What are you reffering to?

 

7 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Or how she entirely rewrote history, hiding the existence of so many things and rewriting over the origins of crest and relics which is exactly HOW humans got to such a bad place in the first place. And all of this bloodshed and suffering for what? To revive her mother?  Like of COURSE she's taking in orphans and those who have fallen victim to the system. It's honestly the LEAST she could do.

 

And Edelgard has done exactly the same thing. In Arianrhod we knew that she lied to put blame on the church which was completly innocent on this matter (MIssion Briefing cutscene after chapter 16) and that was never corrected. From the cutscenes after chapter 12 in any non BE-Route we also know that she blames the church to be the mastermind behind the splitting of the empire. Why we cannot proof that she was lying, as we have seen no evidence whatsoever in any of the routes supporting this claim I see this as imperial propaganda at well. But if you have anything that implies that they were guilty of doing this please let me know.

 

7 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

And are we ignoring her violent streak when people "oppose the Goddess" aka, a false deity she created.

What exactly are you reffering to?

 

7 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

It's almost as if you're being purposefully ignorant of the things Rhea did. There's no exaggeration necessary.

As I mentioned before I am happy to learn. Just please include quoted evidence to your claims, it is hard to discuss something on a basis of speculation.

[Kiran_]

1 hour ago, Nihilem said:

Oh you are misinterpreting my intentions. I dont want to defend or forget anything, I want to learn. Thats why I asked for quotes. Because I have come to the conclusion that most discussion about this topic (or when discussing Edelgards action) are based on feelings and baseless speculation instead of whats actually going on in the game. So I would be happy when you tell me where i can find the evidence to support your claims. In return I will try to do so myself.

To this specific topic I know that she cloned people. "Experimenting" on people implies that the process causes heavy agony and pain (see support with Edelgard and Lysenthia who were really experimented on). Do we have any quote that something like that happened? 

On the other side from the dialoge with Jeralt (unfortunately I dont remember the chater) we know that Byleths Mother was a nun at the Monastery. Thats makes it highly unlikely that she was tortured or had to endure painful experimentation as she would probably run away if that was the case. Also Jeralt (her husband) has never mentioned anything about that and would most likely never allow his son/daughter to be a teacher there if his/her mother would had to endure horrifing experimentation there.

So, If its only cloning I dont even know if it would be illegal in the country i currently life in. But for sure you dont get death penalty for doing it.

And you think that Edelgard - if we she were in the same position - wouldnt do exactly the same thing? No we actually know what she would do - she lets Hubert deal with it. We can clearly see that in her A Support with Hubert where he admits getting rid of assassins for her and she only requests to tell her that - never to stop doing it.

In the same Support it is also mentioned, that she as the emperor has the right to execute anyone (or at least anyone with official duties) if they refuse to follow order. No court mentioned. So it seems to me that human rights are not really a thing in fodlan and death penalties much more the norm then in our modern society. It is quite likely to assume that the Arch Bishop has similiar privileges as the emperor at least in Garreg Mach - where she is a de facto ruler of the city state. And if the refusal to follow orders is punished with execution the the (attempted) assassination of the public figure will not have a milder penalty. Therefore her actions, while surely barbaric from our perspective, dont seem to be that uncommon in fodlan.

What are you reffering to?

And Edelgard has done exactly the same thing. In Arianrhod we knew that she lied to put blame on the church which was completly innocent on this matter (MIssion Briefing cutscene after chapter 16) and that was never corrected. From the cutscenes after chapter 12 in any non BE-Route we also know that she blames the church to be the mastermind behind the splitting of the empire. Why we cannot proof that she was lying, as we have seen no evidence whatsoever in any of the routes supporting this claim I see this as imperial propaganda at well. But if you have anything that implies that they were guilty of doing this please let me know.

What exactly are you reffering to?

As I mentioned before I am happy to learn. Just please include quoted evidence to your claims, it is hard to discuss something on a basis of speculation.

Um ... you didn't provide any quotes for cloning or anything you said? Because Rhea states in the church route, she "Did the forbidden" by "creating a body" and then "burying a crest stone within it". I don't recall her talking about clones. She did this 12 times until Byleth's mother was created. I don't know where that says it's cloning, but if she went through 12 tries, I would classify that as an experiment. Also, I don't think it would be 'forbidden' if there was not something questionable about what she was doing. Experimentation isn't always 'violent' and 'painful'. Also there's such a thing as Stockholm syndrome, and we only hear the words from Rhea's mouth because WHY would she ever admit to doing actually violent things? This was all done in complete secret. Jeralt had NO idea the person he fell in love with was created. And Jeralt also mentioned in his diary, he "used to think the world of Rhea, but now she terrifies me". Why else would he be terrified if not him seeing her true nature. 

How do you know she told her 'creations' that they were false? How do you know what she did? Nobody does. All we know is that she created false bodies, and experimented on trying to bring her mother back. We don't know the details, but that doesn't make it right just because it's not explicitly stated either way. There is such a thing as an unreliable narrator, aka: Rhea. So that's speculation on your part to suggest why Jeralt did or acted the way he did. And furthermore, all of it will always be in some form, speculation, because we can't trust anyone's words about themselves at face value. We can only read between the lines of what they say and look to their other actions and the things that people say around them.

Also, I don't think Edelgard would do something different, so I'm not sure how bringing her up helps your case? I think Edelgard and Rhea are very similar in a lot of ways, including the violence. The difference between the two is that their core motivations are different. One is entirely selfish and about her mother, and the other is about the greater good. Had Rhea truly, mostly cared about humans and bending the truth was all a way to 'help humanity', I wouldn't be so critical, but it was shown time and time again she didn't really care for humanity as much as she said she did.

In the same support you mentioned, Edelgard also recants because she was merely joking. "You know I would never do such a thing and that I pay no heed to the title you bear. It is your own presence and capabilities that I value so highly, Hubert. Titles are meaningless next to such things. Our families have no bearing on this matter...nor does the Empire itself." She admits that she would never do that, because it's about someone's abilities not their station, which is exactly the point. She's not trying to create a world where she's a violent dictator.

And on Rhea's actual S support with Byleth she says, "Though my intention was to keep the peace in Fódlan, I still propagated a false history and deceived my faithful followers. I also took advantage of my position as archbishop to further my own selfish goal of seeing my mother again. If my foolish actions had anything to do with the war..."

She had, at the start a good intention, but her false history and deceiving of her followers LED to something that wasn't peace and instead of correcting it, which she should have done if that was her continued intention, she let it continue happening. And her foolish actions had everything to do with why the war was started. Because her false history led to the corrupt nobles, enticed humans greed and arrogance into thinking they were 'blessed', and led to someone who thinks violence was the only answer (Edelgard) to rise to power to change things.

Before the time skip. If you betray Rhea and don't kill Edelgard at her orders, she calls you "another failure". Another failure of what exactly? Her experimentation on trying to bring her mother back. Because in the Verdant Wind route, she even admits she did "questionable things" to see her mother once more. If she just passively created dolls (think homunculus) that weren't getting hurt to bring back her mother, why would any of that be questionable? 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Kiran_