Marth's unjustified invasion

[Acacia Sgt]

You know, ironically, the NES script actually has Mannu say something that could be easily interpreted as a warning:

"Men who step on the land of Peraty. No one will escape alive."

Of course, the way the game is designed, you can't complete the chapter without stepping on Pyrathi. So it's a Catch-22 for Mars there.

But then, of course, the remake no longer has Mannu making such warning, now does it.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You know, ironically, the NES script actually has Mannu say something that could be easily interpreted as a warning:

"Men who step on the land of Peraty. No one will escape alive."

Of course, the way the game is designed, you can't complete the chapter without stepping on Pyrathi. So it's a Catch-22 for Mars there.

But then, of course, the remake no longer has Mannu making such warning, now does it.

Maybe it could be a localization thing with the DS games?

[Acacia Sgt]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

Maybe it could be a localization thing with the DS games?

Would be interesting to find out. Though I don't know where to find a translated transcript of the Japanese script of Shadow Dragon.

[Emperor Hardin]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Huh? You mentioned Medeus, but his whole backstory was being the only Earth Dragon to retain his sanity, while all those around him went berserk. Mannu is likely at risk of the same deterioration, although we can't say for sure.

That was entirely because they didn't become Manaketes, which Medeus and Mannu are. Mannu is most definitely not degenerated.

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Hm? How is Pyrathi being cut from Mystery an indication that Marth's ancestry had anything to do with Mannu's ire?

Mystery of the Emblem fleshed out a lot of the things that were more bare bones in FE3. For example, the backstory on Morzas replacing Camus as overseer of Altea comes from Mystery of the Emblem.

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Except we are told Pyrathi is isolationist. That means they wouldn't even be supporting either side passively, as sending resources would be such. They'd be helping no one, hindering no one.

The narration says "But the kingdom of Pyrathi seldom made contact with the outside world." There is historical precedence for neutral or even isolationist nations passively supporting another nation in a war by selling them supplies.

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Oh and as someone else already mentioned you do get a wyrmslayer from one of the villages suggesting that there could be dissent among the population.

Not quite, here is the line from the villager: 

“Your best chance of stopping a Manakete lies in what they call a wyrmslayer. It’s a type of sword, and I hear one is enshrined in the eastern palace.”

So it seems Pyrathi was keeping as part of a shrine's treasure. Mannu must've known as the risk though as his soldiers are sent to try to take the sword off of the battlefield.

Now I'm thinking if Shadow Dragon is ever remade, we should get another pirate unit from Pyrathi.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

10 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Now I'm thinking if Shadow Dragon is ever remade, we should get another pirate unit from Pyrathi.

If they remake the Archanean Series, they need to combine it and give it a complete overhaul with the story and characters. 

[Acacia Sgt]

13 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Mystery of the Emblem fleshed out a lot of the things that were more bare bones in FE3. For example, the backstory on Morzas replacing Camus as overseer of Altea comes from Mystery of the Emblem.

Yet removed other things, like the trip to Pyrathi. Once again, how does its removal ties to Mannu possibly being bothered that Marth is descended from Anri? He doesn't even have Falchion, as if to think he could be a threat to him.

14 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The narration says "But the kingdom of Pyrathi seldom made contact with the outside world." There is historical precedence for neutral or even isolationist nations passively supporting another nation in a war by selling them supplies.

Except there's no evidence that Pyrathi did as such.

[Emperor Hardin]

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If they remake the Archanean Series, they need to combine it and give it a complete overhaul with the story and characters. 

Some characters could use more focus, but I'd mainly like all the info from out of game sources to be implemented directly into the game's story.

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

Maybe it could be a localization thing with the DS games?

That just reminds me about several fan translation differences. 

Like a pirate boss in Mystery of the Emblem, Guile/Gail says in the SNES fan translation:

• “Please spare me! Wait, that’s useless...No choice... I’m going to chop your head off!” 

In the DS fan translation, Guil/Gail instead says:

• I'm sorry! ...I wasn't thinking! Gahaha, just kidding! I'll be smashing your pretty head in!

I'm kinda of curious here.

7 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yet removed other things, like the trip to Pyrathi.

It removed other thing due to space or other gameplay mechanic issues rather then by choice. 

7 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Once again, how does its removal ties to Mannu possibly being bothered that Marth is descended from Anri? He doesn't even have Falchion, as if to think he could be a threat to him.

Marth may not have falchion at the moment but he is still the proud descendant of the human who dared rebel against his Manakete peters, killed many Fire Dragons and is a symbol of defiance in face of dragons.

And again, we don't have anything concrete, so we can only speculate. We do see Mannu is very proud of his heritage as a member of the Salamander tribe and finds the idea of a human thinking they're better then a Manakete to be absurd.

7 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Except there's no evidence that Pyrathi did as such

There's no evidence they didn't do as such either. Pyrathi is underdeveloped as we've talked about.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[Emperor Hardin]

EDIT: Double post via browser error.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[Acacia Sgt]

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

That just reminds me about several fan translation differences. 

Like a pirate boss in Mystery of the Emblem, Guile/Gail says in the SNES fan translation:

• “Please spare me! Wait, that’s useless...No choice... I’m going to chop your head off!” 

In the DS fan translation, Guil/Gail instead says:

• I'm sorry! ...I wasn't thinking! Gahaha, just kidding! I'll be smashing your pretty head in!

I'm kinda of curious here.

This is an important detail to consider: that the Japanese script could've/would've been changed too.

I remember reading that the Japanese script of Shadow Dragon removed the mention of slavers at Knorda Market.

7 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Marth may not have falchion at the moment but he is still the proud descendant of the human who dared rebel against his Manakete peters, killed many Fire Dragons and is a symbol of defiance in face of dragons.

And again, we don't have anything concrete, so we can only speculate. We do see Mannu is very proud of his heritage as a member of the Salamander tribe and finds the idea of a human thinking they're better then a Manakete to be absurd.

There's no evidence they didn't do as such either. Pyrathi is underdeveloped as we've talked about.

Yeah, it boils down to not having much info on the matter. Our assumptions remain that: assumptions.

[omegaxis1]

14 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Some characters could use more focus, but I'd mainly like all the info from out of game sources to be implemented directly into the game's story.

That is true. One of the biggest issues that Echoes had is all the supplementary material that we discovered from things that could have been used in the main story itself.

Some form of including these things would be great. 

Which actually CAN be done if we simply have support conversations.

[Emperor Hardin]

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

This is an important detail to consider: that the Japanese script could've/would've been changed too.

There are a few other changes I'm curious about too.

FE1 Emereus seems to have different dialogue in each version of the game, but that seems to be due to his different weapon. Originally he used a silver sword for reference which became a Steel Lance or Silver Lance in later versions.

Nehring, a boss in Mystery of the Emblem says "long live the Emperor" in the SNES translation, but says "Glory to the empire" in the DS translation. I'm wondering if Emperor was actually switched with empire in the DS version

Sonya's ending in Gaiden, I'm very curious about. The two translated endings:

• “Her two older sisters, Mara and Heste, had been reborn as witches to be sacrificed to Doma… Sonya would never forgive their father Judah for making his three daughters into sacrifices.”   
• “”Her older sisters Mara and heste were Doma’s sacrifices. Sonia would never forgave Judah for her deeds.”  

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I remember reading that the Japanese script of Shadow Dragon removed the mention of slavers at Knorda Market.

It was changed from a slaver who was a Manakete(NES) or old lady(SNES+Manga) capturing Linde and some boys to sell to bandits capturing adult men for vague reasons. It's presumed it was done for the sake of the game being localized in english, even though similar scenes have happened plenty of times.

Fire Emblem warriors used that version and excluded the actual boss of the chapter in favor of making generic bandit the map's boss in a very questionable decision.

[Jotari]

23 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Huh? You mentioned Medeus, but his whole backstory was being the only Earth Dragon to retain his sanity, while all those around him went berserk. Mannu is likely at risk of the same deterioration, although we can't say for sure.

Anyway, you're right. I guess Mannu was correct in referring to "the League of A's" as "Interlopers! Barbarous filth!". It's not clear why they couldn't just choke the point on the last map. Especially if they got Roger, he'll do it for love. Strange that it's a safer strategy for Marth to invade another kingdom with hordes of enemies at his back.

This is actually something came to me last night. It's quite odd that Marth actually did manage to subdue Pyrathi so easily. Logically if he has Grust up his ass, conflict with Pyrathi should have led to him being stuck in a pincer attack, but instead Pyrathi crumbles quick enough for the Grust pursuit to be of no consequence (unless Grust chose not to pursue due to the vague holiness of the land, though I kind of assume that's more just a dragon thing, though maybe they were afraid of Doluna's reaction to them entering the land, in which case it's still rather immoral but somewhat of an ingenious place for Malledeus to suggest they retreat to). 

I think we can conclude that Pyrathi's defense force was pretty lacking. Which makes me wonder why Archanea never in all the years decided to annex it. Especially during the first time Medeus did his whole thing.

18 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

At least Deghinsea actually bothered to tell them "You're trespassing, go back from where you came from or we will attack you".

Another similar situation happened in Binding Blade. The Etrurian Government already gave permission to Roy and the Lycian Alliance Army to wander around the Western Isles as part of their request to stamp out bandits and the like. DEspite so, Roy still sends a messenger requesting a local garrison for permission of passage to Mt. Ebrakhim. What does the garrison captain does? Kills the messenger and then sends soldiers to attack Roy and company. IT's true he was under orders from Roartz and Arcado to frame and or eliminate the Lycian Army for Bern's benefit; but it shows there was one-sided communication, as Roy did went through the proper protocol.

Once again, we don't know exactly if Marth was in Pyrathi proper when Mannu made his statement. Unlike us, they can't see the entire area the chapter maps depict. So unless Mannu has a window and his eyesight and/or the distance permits him to see the entry bridge, then he's the one making an assumption that they're already stepping on Pyrathi soil.

Well, it's no different from you inventing the scenario that Marth is coming to Pyrathi with the intent to invade or he decided that "screw you, I'm attacking you". Ch8 clearly shows Marth never went to Pyrathi with that intention.

If I could, would you likewise do the same for your statements that he was denied entry?

The narration says it was unexpected, not that it was unannounced. Malledus only decides to go as a spur of the moment thing. If Mannu has bothered to be informed about the war to be prepared to do something if it comes to it, then any last report to him about Marth would be that he was at Warren. Malledus was also the one who decided that the League should head to the castle in the island northeast of Warren.

Heck, maybe this aided in how Mannu knows. He heard the League advanced to the castle, so he's inferring Marth will keep advancing east, into Pyrathi. It's just conjecture of course.

In any case, for Mannu to know while in his castle, someone had to have to delivered the message that Marth was coming with ample time if he only speaks when Marth is barely on the bridge that leads to the main Pyrathi island. This is where the text makes it impossible to know which was. Which brings to my conjectures. If it was a League messenger, then why Mannu didn't simply replied back with a negative? If it was local Pyrathians who saw the League coming, then why THEY didn't warned Marth first that Mannu may not like them coming his way? Ultimately, this is something only a remake may give us the answer to.

To be fair, that line is open for interpretation. If he angry at the LEague's mention, angry at the 'unexpected visit' mention, or at both? Who knows.

Hm? How is Pyrathi being cut from Mystery an indication that Marth's ancestry had anything to do with Mannu's ire?

Except we are told Pyrathi is isolationist. That means they wouldn't even be supporting either side passively, as sending resources would be such. They'd be helping no one, hindering no one.

The fact he prefers to be cut off from the rest of the world is not a sign he's unaffiliated Dohl, let alone anyone else at all?

Well I doubt Mannu is just sitting in his throne room muttering to himself about defilers while coincidentally there is an army at his border. Someone has obviously informed him people are trespassing on his holy ground. Now that information could be inaccurate or Mannu could have been told there are people approaching and decided to frame his statements in the present tense (maybe assuming they had already breached in the time it took the messenger to arrive), but that's all just potential speculation and not something the game is actually trying to suggest (like it pointedly does with Roy and Ike).

18 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

There is one extreme problem with the term used here. You say that Marth "invaded", but the term only works if Marth subjugated and occupied the territory. Marths' army left the territory after the battle. It didn't occupy. And the "subjugation" was a result of self-defense. 

Now, had Marth actually annexed the land, then yes, it is invasion overall, even if it was self-defense. 

But because Marth left and did not occupy or make any indication of annexing it, then you can't call it an invasion. 

If Marth didn't anex the land that would almost be worse. Destroying it's defense force and killing the (effectively immortal) monarch suddenly is going to leave the place in absolute chaos. Although there remains the potential that the population is actually really small and its more like the Vatican than a traditional state. Basically just Mannu and his defense forces there (all of the pirate or hunter class so maybe they're mercenaries) and Marth ended up killing everyone on the island so there wasn't even enough people to leave it political turmoil. Eh, actually probably not considering there are actual villages you can visit with seemingly normal villagers.

14 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

 

Not quite, here is the line from the villager: 

“Your best chance of stopping a Manakete lies in what they call a wyrmslayer. It’s a type of sword, and I hear one is enshrined in the eastern palace.”

So it seems Pyrathi was keeping as part of a shrine's treasure. Mannu must've known as the risk though as his soldiers are sent to try to take the sword off of the battlefield.

Now I'm thinking if Shadow Dragon is ever remade, we should get another pirate unit from Pyrathi.

Ah my memory was slightly faulty in that regard. Still the fact that a citizen of Pyrathi is giving this information, information that can be used to kill their king to an army that is now actively fighting again the king's forces, could be suggestive that there is dissent in the populace. Hell it seems like downright treason.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

If Marth didn't anex the land that would almost be worse. Destroying it's defense force and killing the (effectively immortal) monarch suddenly is going to leave the place in absolute chaos. Although there remains the potential that the population is actually really small and its more like the Vatican than a traditional state. Basically just Mannu and his defense forces there (all of the pirate or hunter class so maybe they're mercenaries) and Marth ended up killing everyone on the island so there wasn't even enough people to leave it political turmoil. Eh, actually probably not considering there are actual villages you can visit with seemingly normal villagers.

One does not need to annex the land to still help it if there are problems. 

Nations can help restore things to the land once the war ends. Similar to what Ephraim does to Grado after the war in Sacred Stones. Grado no longer has a king, but never got annexed.

[Acacia Sgt]

You know, the line about the wyrmslayer may not necessarily mean the guy is hoping you kill the King with it.

Food for thought, Mannu is rumored to be a Manakete... but does that apply to only non-Pyrathians, or the Pyrathians themselves also have no clue?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

This is actually something came to me last night. It's quite odd that Marth actually did manage to subdue Pyrathi so easily. Logically if he has Grust up his ass, conflict with Pyrathi should have led to him being stuck in a pincer attack, but instead Pyrathi crumbles quick enough for the Grust pursuit to be of no consequence (unless Grust chose not to pursue due to the vague holiness of the land, though I kind of assume that's more just a dragon thing, though maybe they were afraid of Doluna's reaction to them entering the land, in which case it's still rather immoral but somewhat of an ingenious place for Malledeus to suggest they retreat to). 

I think we can conclude that Pyrathi's defense force was pretty lacking. Which makes me wonder why Archanea never in all the years decided to annex it. Especially during the first time Medeus did his whole thing.

Now I'm starting to see why it was cut from Mystery Book 1. Pyrathi is a contradiction. It's not like Archanea would've just not been interested in it, because Jeorge was curious enough to visit there. Perhaps Mannu (and thereby, Pyrathi as a whole) were much stronger in the past, and their isolationist nature made Archanea and Grust think them still powerful? It's the only way that Marth roflstomping them makes any sense.

[omegaxis1]

38 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Now I'm starting to see why it was cut from Mystery Book 1. Pyrathi is a contradiction. It's not like Archanea would've just not been interested in it, because Jeorge was curious enough to visit there. Perhaps Mannu (and thereby, Pyrathi as a whole) were much stronger in the past, and their isolationist nature made Archanea and Grust think them still powerful? It's the only way that Marth roflstomping them makes any sense.

We have to remember that this is the very first Fire Emblem game. I doubt that there was too much in regards to military strategy there. Especially when you look at the map and notice that Altea and Talys are so incredibly far apart from one another, yet when Altea fell, Marth somehow went on a ship ride to Talys. 

[Acacia Sgt]

Personally, I think it's due to just how... young, human civilization is in Archanea. Think about it, when Shadow Dragon begins, it's only been around 1300 years when the Divine-Earth Dragon war ended; and humans not only no longer had to fear for their existence; but also had free reign to become the major force of the continent. Well, Thabes was a thing since the original NES version of the first game, though even then it shows human civilization took a huge set-back when dragons were around.

If you look at the timeline, you will see that almost every nation is barely a hundred years old by the time of Shadow Dragon (even Dohl is only around 115 by Shadow Dragon). Gra is barely sixty. Heck, many humans are still older than the Kingdom of Talys (Caeda's father united the island and turned it into a kingdom, so it's barely twenty to twenty-five years old). Only Archanea itself is any older, and then it's only recently turned six hundred. If you consider that most nations had to consolidate themselves, it makes sense that you still have places like Galder or the entire northeast corner of the continent still under no banner.

Pyrathi could've easily held if Archanea only expanded to Warren in recent times or something.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Personally, I think it's due to just how... young, human civilization is in Archanea. Think about it, when Shadow Dragon begins, it's only been around 1300 years when the Divine-Earth Dragon war ended; and humans not only no longer had to fear for their existence; but also had free reign to become the major force of the continent. Well, Thabes was a thing since the original NES version of the first game, though even then it shows human civilization took a huge set-back when dragons were around.

If you look at the timeline, you will see that almost every nation is barely a hundred years old by the time of Shadow Dragon (even Dohl is only around 115 by Shadow Dragon). Gra is barely sixty. Heck, many humans are still older than the Kingdom of Talys (Caeda's father united the island and turned it into a kingdom, so it's barely twenty to twenty-five years old). Only Archanea itself is any older, and then it's only recently turned six hundred. If you consider that most nations had to consolidate themselves, it makes sense that you still have places like Galder or the entire northeast corner of the continent still under no banner.

Pyrathi could've easily held if Archanea only expanded to Warren in recent times or something.

True and it says even during the Doluna occupation Warren still had some form of autonomy, them likely being the exception in Archanea because they previously also had limited autonomy before the country fell. If Warren is more independent because it's only recently merged with Archanea then Pyrathi never becoming a juicy target before now makes sense.

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

One does not need to annex the land to still help it if there are problems. 

Nations can help restore things to the land once the war ends. Similar to what Ephraim does to Grado after the war in Sacred Stones. Grado no longer has a king, but never got annexed.

Yes, but there going to have to maintain a military presence there for some time to keep things stable. Just going in, destroying the entire system and "saying cool guys here some crops and an economist, good luck" would probably have pretty terrible results. Although if Marth didn't end up annexing it as part of Archanea then it would be the only nation left in the world not under his control by the end of the sequel (unless Hardin nabbed it and we just never get informed during Mystery of the Emblem).

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Yes, but there going to have to maintain a military presence there for some time to keep things stable. Just going in, destroying the entire system and "saying cool guys here some crops and an economist, good luck" would probably have pretty terrible results. Although if Marth didn't end up annexing it as part of Archanea then it would be the only nation left in the world not under his control by the end of the sequel (unless Hardin nabbed it and we just never get informed during Mystery of the Emblem).

Given how there are pirates and such in there that Marth purged, we can also surmise that Marth did eliminate a source of problem for the people that live there for the time being until Marth goes to help Minerva. 

However, odds are that Emperor Hardin, if he did originally mean to make efforts to help the land, likely annexed it and took over when he became corrupted.

[Acacia Sgt]

36 minutes ago, Jotari said:

True and it says even during the Doluna occupation Warren still had some form of autonomy, them likely being the exception in Archanea because they previously also had limited autonomy before the country fell. If Warren is more independent because it's only recently merged with Archanea then Pyrathi never becoming a juicy target before now makes sense.

Isn't that because they pretty much had to pay for their freedom? Not out of past history of autonomy.

[Emperor Hardin]

I bet if Kaga remade Mystery of the Emblem, there'd be a Pyrathi chapter. Remember the entire Pyrathi map was removed in FE3 for space.

34 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Given how there are pirates and such in there that Marth purged, we can also surmise that Marth did eliminate a source of problem for the people that live there for the time being until Marth goes to help Minerva. 

The pirates weren't random criminals, they were Mannu's official army.

 

[Jotari]

55 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Isn't that because they pretty much had to pay for their freedom? Not out of past history of autonomy.

That is how they're gaining it but I'm assuming they were eager to maintain autonomy rather than just be the one random exception that was rich enough to do so. 

[Acacia Sgt]

49 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That is how they're gaining it but I'm assuming they were eager to maintain autonomy rather than just be the one random exception that was rich enough to do so. 

Can be both. Warren is a port city, if they can avoid the fate of the rest of the kingdom, then why not take it?

FE would do this later on in Jugdral with Tahra, basically striking a deal to be the only part of the Manster District outside Grannvelian control.

[vanguard333]

Yeah; I always disliked how barebones the Pyrathi chapter was (in terms of story), even for a Shadow Dragon chapter. We have no context outside of “extremely isolationist kingdom ruled by a manakete, but Marth needs a place for his army to hide.” 

One thing that particularly bugs me is that I once read somewhere that Ogma was born in Pyrathi while his mother was born in Grust, yet Ogma is completely silent in that chapter. If I were in charge of a new anime adaption of Shadow Dragon, that is definitely something I would expand on: how does Ogma view his birthplace? Was he considered an outcast by the isolationist community due to his heritage? Would he be eager or reluctant to have to come back to it after all these years (probably the latter)? Would he try to help Marth land in Pyrathi safely? Would he be recognized by anyone there?

[Emperor Hardin]

22 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Was he considered an outcast by the isolationist community due to his heritage? Would he be eager or reluctant to have to come back to it after all these years (probably the latter)? 

The notes by Kaga say his mother was killed there, so he possibly was an outcast?

22 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Would he be recognized by anyone there?

If I did another Shadow Dragon remake, there'd be a recruitable pirate in Pyrath who'd be recruitable by Ogma.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Emperor Hardin