Duff Ostrich Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 @ Esau of IsaacI believe that the Bible is divine in origin rather than human, and if you are an honest person, you can look at the evidences and evaluate their merits accordingly. Are you an honest person to look at the evidences? Are you willing to accept truth through hard evidences? What evidence are you talking about? If you mean the Bible is evidence because it is of divine origin, that just isn't going to work. The Bible cannot prove itself. If the Bible is proven true, then it is logical to conclude that its contents are true. But one must first establish the Bible as a valid source of historical (and metaphysical) knowledge. I stopped coming to this topic after something I noticed on the first page, but now I want to say one final thing. Has anyone seen the movie "Man of the Year?" I feel kind of like Lewis Black's character when he describing something he'd watched on the Holocaust: Basically, one guy was arguing that the Holocaust never happened, and the other was arguing that it had to have happened. In the end, Lewis Black didn't know which side to pick because both sides had good evidence supporting their claim.This is where I am on religion and science. Both sides have good arguments supporting their claims, yet neither side can explain everything they'd like to, either. So which one do I pick as the correct one? Well, it goes back to that choice post I made a few pages back. In the end, you just have to pick the one that appeals to you the most. We won't be sure until we die. One cannot argue that science is false. Scientific theories can be incorrect, but science as a method (i.e. a process from which logical conclusions can be drawn from various phenomena) is something that is intrinsically true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Judy Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Scientific theories can be incorrect, but science as a method (i.e. a process from which logical conclusions can be drawn from various phenomena) is something that is intrinsically true. I think Fox means, that science cannot prove everything...I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuuda Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) I think Fox means, that science cannot prove everything...I think. How do you know? We might not have the answers yet, but who knows when we could make a breakthrough. Unlike the bible, science is constantly evolving. Edited December 3, 2008 by Shuuda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Judy Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) How do you know? We might not have the answers yet, but who knows when we could make a breakthrough. Unlike the bible, science is constantly evolving. No no. I should have explained further. I meant that science might be able to prove things in the future, but probably not right now. I am sure Science can prove many things, but it won't happened so soon. Edited December 3, 2008 by Dark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I think Fox means, that science cannot prove everything...I think. You're exactly right. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but there are things out there that science has no current explanation for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Judy Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 You're exactly right. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but there are things out there that science has no current explanation for. I know what you mean. Science...I personally feel won't ever be able to explain how the world was exactly created. Like the Big Bang theory states there was an atom that had exploded or something. Where did the atom came from? Science hasn't been able to prove that God doesn't exist either.. So yeah, hey I may be wrong. But I am pretty sure, in this life time, I won't see science to prove the things I have mentioned lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I know what you mean. Science...I personally feel won't ever be able to explain how the world was exactly created. Like the Big Bang theory states there was an atom that had exploded or something. Where did the atom came from?Science hasn't been able to prove that God doesn't exist either.. So yeah, hey I may be wrong. But I am pretty sure, in this life time, I won't see science to prove the things I have mentioned lol Science doesn't have to prove that God doesn't exist; it falls on the believers shoulders to prove he does exist. That much I agree with. Science is there to prove what is, not what isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Judy Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Science doesn't have to prove that God doesn't exist; it falls on the believers shoulders to prove he does exist. That much I agree with. Science is there to prove what is, not what isn't. Ah nicely put. Yeah I do believe in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) @ Esau of IsaacI believe that the Bible is divine in origin rather than human, and if you are an honest person, you can look at the evidences and evaluate their merits accordingly. Are you an honest person to look at the evidences? Are you willing to accept truth through hard evidences? I am willing to accept the truth through hard evidences. The Bible is not hard evidence, and is indeed not evidence at all, since if we're attempting to find the validity of the Bible, using the Bible's own words to back itself up is borderline retarded. Do you have anything that shows the words of the Bible to be fair or logical? You're exactly right. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but there are things out there that science has no current explanation for. But the most beautiful thing about science is that it is always changing, always progressing. Unlike the religious texts of the Bible, it will change and reform to show what has the most truth and logic. Edited December 3, 2008 by Esau of Isaac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 But the most beautiful thing about science is that it is always changing, always progressing. Unlike the religious texts of the Bible, it will change and reform to show what has the most truth and logic. Unless it does that in my lifetime (Which I highly doubt it will), I'll always be at a crossroads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) So you would disagree when God states them as rules to be followed, and presents them as laws to the people?Er...yes I would disagree. I don't think God wants people to be murdered for doing a sin though.Where did it say that everyone can become a guardian angel?Jobs...that the angels do.Of course, God was the cause of all this. Even when Lucifer had been put so close to perfection in God's eyes, God was well aware that Lucifer was imperfect, but let him screw up anyways; this is illogical, and very lacking in benevolence, since God should and would have been capable of fixing the situation; moreover, if God were indeed omniscient, then he had to have set out attempting to make an imperfect being, which should logically be impossible for a perfect God (nothing but pure perfection can stem from something that is totally perfect. In other words, nothing can ever screw up if something truly perfect is around).There is a reason why we don't know what God did, and we will never know why. Which is why there are Atheists, Agnostics, etc.I disagree, if you had the power to make something at will, why would you want them to be exactly like you? I don't think God wants another God. Which is why even angels aren't perfect. Satan could be seen as evil, but he could also be seen as the first revolutionary. I may find that Satan is known to be characterized as a being of trickery and deceit, but he was doing what I find a good thing by rebelling against God. I believe Bakunin said it well, that were God to exist it would be necessary to abolish him.He will be abolished. Just because He doesn't do it immediately, doesn't mean it won't happen. Blessings take some time too.Shouldn't you be questioning why hell exists in the first place?Lucifer created it. Why would I question? Even when God abolishes Lucifer, there will still be a hell. Like most say, every action has an equal, opposite reaction. Can you go into greater detail and explain how Heaven can possibly be eternal happiness, since you're doomed to eventually be unhappy given an infinite amount of time?There is no time. No time. Don't think about time. Don't think about skin, or your body. We won't have one, we will be spirit. It is supposed eternal happiness, but every angel has a job to do, they don't "float" around being lazy all the time. God has a job too (obvious though).Why, given an infinite amount of time, you'll descend into quite the madness. What is it about the children of God that would possess such a a staying power that they simply never become unhappy? I don't find it very logical or possible to conclude first that heaven is an existent place, and second that it is possible to be eternally at peace without something being intrinsically altered in the human psyche. In other words, if you ascend to heaven and are through some bizarre means made totally happy, you're no longer you and indeed someone else.You keep thinking we WILL be ourselves. You are right, we won't be. We'll be cleansed, never to commit sin again. Also, just because we don't commit sin, doesn't me we become perfect. Thought I should add that.Not necessarily. There are several different views of what hell entails, from a fire that totally consumes a man's soul and gives him a final death, to an eternal damnation where one experiences their worst fears for all of time.Eternal damnation. Same difference. Wait, wait, what?Earth body. XDI meant our skin and such. Our body we have now. I just want to stop here and say how ridiculous that sounds. Great one to be deciding your fate for all of eternity.I don't think you understand. The belief that He decides our fate without taking how we lived has been a killed belief for hundreds of years. We live, he decides on how we lived, our fate.So, when is God judged?Perfect does not get judged. Neither does Satan. But due to what I told you, you should know why Satan won't be judged. Edited December 4, 2008 by Citrusman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteor Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Satan was already judged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Satan was already judged. Naw he was punished. He was never judged. Also, whoever said that Jesus isn't real is false. He was alive, the events that happened while he was alive (besides the crucifixion) are the questionable aspects of Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteor Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 His punishment comes without judgment? I'm not sure how you got that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 His punishment comes without judgment? I'm not sure how you got that one. Like parenthood dude. Do something horrible, you don't get a trial for it, you get punished. Plus, Lucifer was ALREADY an angel, so no second chances for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteor Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Your parents are the judge and jury. They know the evidence, pass judgment, and then carry it out -- punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Your parents are the judge and jury. They know the evidence, pass judgment, and then carry it out -- punishment. Your point? God is known as the Holy Father for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Oooo this is getting doctrinal :P Can't wait for the dimominations to start coming into this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defeatist Elitist Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 @Bible as an argument. That is a horribly fallacious line of argument. It's basically worthless. @Fox: Come oooooooooooooooon. Science HAS changed in your lifetime, it is EVER changing. Just look at computers... Science hasn't explained everything, but that doesn't mean you should fill in the gaps with a magic pixie. Especially when people like the Pixie so much that they deny the reality when it is discovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 @Bible as an argument. That is a horribly fallacious line of argument. It's basically worthless. @Fox: Come oooooooooooooooon. Science HAS changed in your lifetime, it is EVER changing. Just look at computers... Science hasn't explained everything, but that doesn't mean you should fill in the gaps with a magic pixie. Especially when people like the Pixie so much that they deny the reality when it is discovered. Whoa whoa! Don't rant about this right now. I wanna see if the believers will go into it about doctrinal issues :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defeatist Elitist Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Whoa whoa! Don't rant about this right now. I wanna see if the believers will go into it about doctrinal issues :P No thanks, I'd rather not wallow in bullshit up to my nose. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) @Bible as an argument. That is a horribly fallacious line of argument. It's basically worthless. @Fox: Come oooooooooooooooon. Science HAS changed in your lifetime, it is EVER changing. Just look at computers... Science hasn't explained everything, but that doesn't mean you should fill in the gaps with a magic pixie. Especially when people like the Pixie so much that they deny the reality when it is discovered. I REALLY am confused... Just because science is right, that equals God being nonexistent? Please explain that. The illogical is not disproved by science, science is there to help people understand their world. Would it be logical if I said some, like you, misinterpret science? Quite frankly, in the definition of science, there is not a definition that says "Religion is false, because science is right." I'm just tired of all the BS (Not by you personally), you say not to misinterpret the Bible, yet you believe science to be the proof that God doesn't exist. That's a hypocrite's "talk." Science gives us all the fun facts about people and animals, it doesn't disprove religion, nor does it try to. Anytime someone uses logical science in this subject, they think it is proof that God doesn't exist. I think it is fair to say that THAT is like using your religion for debates. This is an illogical debate, using logic for the illogical is...illogical. Note: This came out of nowhere, I was just wondering why it was like this. PS: No offense Revan. I know I quoted you, but I could have posted it w/o quoting you. Edited December 4, 2008 by Citrusman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Ah come on! It'll be fun! I'll give you a snorkal! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 This is an illogical debate, using logic for the illogical is...illogical. I know I mentioned this not too long ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I know I mentioned this not too long ago Great minds think alike. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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