Religion.

[Judge Judy]

...Are you suggesting that God can't see intentions, even in the future? According to you, he can see everything.

He should be able to see the intention of someone, even in the future. That makes our existence pointless, actually. He knows what our intentions are, and what we want to do, what we do, etc. Therefore, he knows where we're going to go since he knows what kind of people we are. The trial and error and reward system of religion is then useless - because the outcome is obvious.

Let's say you know you're going to get a full mark in a random quiz which you didn't take yet. Why take it?

This rises up a new point - our existence is then pointless.

Why make a world to send people to Hell and Heaven? Just for fun? Or is it because God works in mysterious ways?

He is omnipotent, after all.

Nothing personal. I always enjoy debates.

I enjoy debates too. ;)

Yes it does strike me as odd that God has to judge our intentions presently.

I can't asnwer that question since I'm not God XD

So I will go along with God likes to work in mysterious ways

[Thingy Person]

So I will go along with God likes to work in mysterious ways

He's been working mysteriously a lot now, and for quite some time as well.

[Phoenix]

Relevant: Why the heck does everybody and their friggin grandmother think that a righteous God wouldn't let people suffer? The world as it is isn't contradictory to the Bible or God's character. You just want some big teddy bear of a God to come and save you from your Wars and economic problems don't you. The Bible teaches people how to avoid these things just like a parent teaches a child. This could be viewed as an over the phone teaching, and still people say only a cruel God would cause this to happen. God caused us to exist! He didn't cause us to slaughter each other anymore than people who believe in a pushover God caused me to point out what I think is wrong with that belief.

Free Moral Agent: You, me, the Nazis all of us are free moral agents, not like the animals. We can pick and choose everything we want out of life and what we want to pursue. You know what that means?

It means you're responsible for your own actions!

You're basically blaming God for the choices other people make. When did our dumb choices become God's fault or responsibility? Why must he come in and save this world? Someone was going on about seeing the future not too long ago and that just furthers my point. Must God have known the world would turn out like this?, that Adam and Eve would mess up?, that Satan would take a third of the angels and start a meaningless war? Yep. And so by your pathetic standard of love, he must come fix everything? What would you learn? To trust in God? No. To not mess up the world? No. You wouldn't learn anything at all. As sad as it is, people need to be born, grow up in, suffer through, and die in this world before any kind of spiritual growth will ever take place.

There's a time spoken of in the Bible as the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ. That is the time for the world to be saved, not now. And that would be the ultimate contrast. 6000 years of mankind killing and stealing versus Jesus Christ ruling a harmonious and peaceful world. That will be a great lesson for people who exist after that time. That's what free will is for. So we can choose to follow God. God could make us perfect outright, but then our free will would be gone, and we would cease being free moral agents and instead be righteous robots. Your free will is a gift.

Heaven/Hell: Is the Heaven/Hell thing weird? Yeah. That's why I'm not a traditional Christian. Even worse than believing in a teddy bear God for me is believing in a tyrannical and unsound one. Hell in the Bible as stated before is pretty much a grave where dead people go, nothing more, nothing less. Heaven in the Bible is God's very throne. Can't imagine it, but it's probably pretty cool. There is another hell mentioned though... Gehenna is the word used and it's translated as HELL FIRE. This is where that burning in a pit of fire comes from, just so EVERYONE knows. Gehenna is not just in the Bible, but in the language used "a place to burn DEAD bodies". Some speculate because of verses picturing a false prophet and Satan being tossed ALIVE into hellfire or the bottomless pit. That's fine, but I'm not interested in just a few verses that go well toegether. I'm interested in the whole Bible, and throughout that book are constant referrences to hell. These referrences don't all support eternal punishing but eternal punishment. If you can't tell the difference between two words which are so very different, you won't learn much more than good life lessons from the Bible. Because of stuff like this people say the Bible contradicts itself and shouldn't be relied upon. The Bible would contradict itself too, but that is only if the doctrines and interpretations drawn out from the book are those intended by the author. However, I believe that God is not divided and so my only conclusion is that the religions formed thus far are off base in numerous areas.

Irrelevant: I flat out refuse to just lie on my back and take whatever a worldy religion tells me to without some kind of evidence supporting it. With that logic, I went through all the major Christian groups and found the same things wrong with each group forcing me to abandon the core of Christianity. It's not God I don't believe in, it's the doctrines that all have their roots in one place and one point in time. 325 A.D.. The council of Nicea. I don't follow what they have instituted. It is not for me to do that. Only one Christian Church predates the Catholic church and that is the one I was looking for. It started in 31 A.D. and from a realistic view point, it has probably vanished into history. Hard not to with the Catholic guy offing non believers left and right. Anywho All of Christianity has only two routes, the original church, and the Catholic church. 99% of all churches today have their roots in the Catholic church. Which makes the Phoenix an outcast. Where the real church is, is the Phoenix's only priority regarding faith.

Can people be saved even if not following God in the exact ways shown in the Bible? That's not for me to decide, that's for you, and your God(Bible version) assuming you have one. All I'm saying is I want the truth, not from someone who just flat out doesn't believe, not from someone claiming to be of God with nothing but doctrines from 325 A.D.. but a real source. That leaves me with the Bible, and hopefully a few hundred inspired interpretations to work with B)

[Destiny Hero]

Free Moral Agent: You, me, the Nazis all of us are free moral agents, not like the animals. We can pick and choose

Not like the animals? So, animals are not living things, and they can't think? Just because humans are smarter, it means that animals are worth nothing?

Animals can think for themselves. They have personalities and can choose their own actions. Please don't be a bitch and treat all the animals like shit.

[Judge Judy]

Geez man, that a report you got there.

[Phoenix]

Not like the animals? So, animals are not living things, and they can't think? Just because humans are smarter, it means that animals are worth nothing?

Animals can think for themselves. They have personalities and can choose their own actions. Please don't be a bitch and treat all the animals like shit.

I don't treat animals like sh*t. I have plenty of animals to care for. Maybe you shouldn't read stuff into my posts. Animals work on instinct. It's different from normal free will. It may look similar but it is different. This is why the best and animal can do is learn sign language. And animals have no concept of good and evil as Humans, Angels, Demons, and God do. I'm not basing my claims off of "nothing". Just try to remember that the next time you want to say something that awkward.

[Esau of Isaac]

Noone can prove heaven is real, noone can prove it isn't.

Noone can prove hell is real, noone can prove it isn't.

Noone can prove God is real, noone can prove he isn't.

Noone can prove Satan is real, of course, noone can prove he isn't.

So... why have we been trying to do that for the last few pages?

I don't need to have physical evidence that something is false to fairly dismiss it as such. No one will ever prove that invisible and intangible monkeys aren't defecating on everyone's heads, but I sure as hell don't believe it to be true.

I DID compare reading the Bible to seeing the dead alive again, if the Bible is indeed the very WORD of God, and if you can't believe that, then how can you believe?

BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IT'S THE WORD OF GOD.

If someone you didn't know came back to life, then they could tap you on the shoulder saying; 'Did you know I was dead', and you'd never believe them, and if you knew them, or even SAW them rising from the dead, then you might indeed believe.... In who? there are many 'gods' and 'godesses' in which to put your faith, and even then there are many, 'variants' of Christianity, it's sad really, churches are divided simply over what color carpet to choose.

And that's because there's no real evidence of God to form any real conclusion.

Typical. As humans we like to put the blame on someone. Its only natural. Here I see your putting the blame on God now.

If God exists and it actually knows of humanity and actually watched as everything occurred, it's guilty of the greatest act of negligence the world has ever known. It's only natural because it is God's fault that all of this occurred. It would be God that created everything and let everything go to shit.

We have free will. God has given them to humans to be exercised without any boundries.

No we don't. Your actions are based off previous reactions. You're entirely based upon your environment, and act according to a situation in the same way everything else does. You have about as much free will as a rock does.

So naturally all these evil things that take place in the world are caused by humans, not God. What is the point of free will if God is going to stop us from doing bad things in the first place?

Let's take this apart.

First, people were not aware of good or evil until they ate the Fruit of Knowledge from its tree. The kick in the balls here is that this tree was placed in easy reach of Adam and Eve when they were nothing but ignorant children. The fact that he was omniscient and still decided to do this is utterly absurd, and only shows that he desired for this to occur.

Second, in the Bible he interferes in peoples' will all the time. For example, killing everyone and everything on the planet but a single boat. Yeah, that's not him sticking his fingers in our business, right?

God has given us this world to take care of. He wants to see if we are able to look after etc. God wants to see humans do something about these problems because alot of these problems are caused by humans in the first place.

Any problems caused by humans are a result of God's negligence, if you follow the Bible's words.

1)Our religion says that God can see the future and knows the outcome of it. He wants to see humans deal with these problems since this world was given to us.

Then it's not a test, because he is already aware of the outcome.

Apply this to everything else, at anyone and everyone that goes to hell, and their entire lives. God was utterly aware of the actions that they would perform --that they were fated to do, and could not escape from-- and allowed them to be led into eternal damnation. That's utterly uncaring and leads me to think that the God of the Bible is quite the sadist.

2) About heaven and hell. God doesn't really care about our actions that we have committed. Its about our intention. God looks at our intention when it comes to committing a good deed or a bad deed. For example, I may give tons of money to chairty but I am really doing it for the publicity not because I care for poor people. God looks at the intention to see whether we truly want to do something good.

No, it doesn't matter. God has stated that all evil is the same in his eyes. That means whether you steal a loaf of bread to save your starving family or only because you're greedy, you still committed sin in his eyes.

Another example. Lets say I killed someone. That is clearly wrong of course but I didn't have the intention to kill that person, it was an accident. God will take that into our consideration to decide whether we go heaven or hell.

Evidence.

So yes God knows when we are going to do something bad and good, but he wants to see our intention first. That something God has to see presently.

Impossible. If God is omniscient, then he is already aware of our intentions. The Bible supports this by saying that God plans anything and everything that occurs.

[Higgins Von Higgings]

Ahem...

THIS TOPIC SHOULD BE DELETED now

I've said this many times before. Religion is a HORIBLE HORIBLE HORIBLE topic to bring up. Everyone argues their own views and wants to prove others wrong.

I'm Atheist, I don't believe in stuff and I have my own views on the whys, hows, and such. But that is NOT something that needs to be discussed like this. All we are doing, or will be doing given time, is flame or offend others and so on. It's a VERY bad idea for this topic to go on, just as it was bad to start it.

I will repeat myself.

LOCK LOCK LOCK LOCK LOCK...

Edited December 5, 2008 by VincentASM

[Phoenix]

Gotta spew our intellectual crap somewhere

[Higgins Von Higgings]

Yes but at the cost of everyone changing their feelings of each other, getting upset with each other, possibly leaving, and so on?

I understand that people want to express their views, but it's a very bad bad thing to bring things like this up. People get upset, mad, and so on, which can cause some really bad things. Religion has always been a very bad topic to discuss at places.

[Phoenix]

Should we talk about evolution instead?

[Higgins Von Higgings]

That might be a more gentle topic, but I still think that's bad, since it'll lead back to religion (since some believe that their god(s) created it all, and some that we evolved in one way or another).

[Oguma]

Yay. this is now the largest topic outside of FFtF!

[Defeatist Elitist]

Yes but at the cost of everyone changing their feelings of each other, getting upset with each other, possibly leaving, and so on?

I understand that people want to express their views, but it's a very bad bad thing to bring things like this up. People get upset, mad, and so on, which can cause some really bad things. Religion has always been a very bad topic to discuss at places.

That might be a more gentle topic, but I still think that's bad, since it'll lead back to religion (since some believe that their god(s) created it all, and some that we evolved in one way or another).

Right, because we shouldn't discuss issues based on the chance we might offend someone, right?

What if I'm offended and get mad when people talk about, say, food? Well, I guess you can't talk about food anymore!

This is a discussion that I personally am enjoying, and it contributes a lot to the participants, whether they know it or not. I really see no reason to lock it.

[Higgins Von Higgings]

So you honestly saying that you don't think anyone was offended or upset about this topic? You don't think anyone now thinks more negatively about others?

Food people have different views on, but there are a lot more views on religion and people who feel a shit ton stronger about that. This whole topic has been an argument and telling others how they are wrong. I don't care a lot about most arguments, but every time I see these topics go far it's BAD.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Higgins Von Higgings

[Ϲharlie]

Ahem...

THIS TOPIC SHOULD BE DELETED now

I've said this many times before. Religion is a HORIBLE HORIBLE HORIBLE topic to bring up. Everyone argues their own views and wants to prove others wrong.

I'm Atheist, I don't believe in stuff and I have my own views on the whys, hows, and such. But that is NOT something that needs to be discussed like this. All we are doing, or will be doing given time, is flame or offend others and so on. It's a VERY bad idea for this topic to go on, just as it was bad to start it.

I will repeat myself.

Whoa, easy does it.

I really can't see any reason why this topic should be locked. I realize religion is a volatile subject that has caused many a fire storm, but this thread has been going on fairly peacefully since November 21st. There is no reason to lock it until it devolves into an actual shit storm.

Yay. this is now the largest topic outside of FFtF!

Yes it is. Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Refrain from making useless posts outside of FFtF. Thanks.

[Phoenix]

Yes it is. Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Refrain from making useless posts outside of FFtF. Thanks.

I have a hard time with this too as the intellectual side of this religion topic is so boring that I feel I must say something completely absent minded mixed with my statement to spice it up abit. Sometimes I forget my statement before posting the joke. This may be because I go back and forth between the FFTF section and the general section. Regardless I will continue to try.

And on that note. I think religion is what it is. Something people get into. Some get out. Some don't.

[Ragnell]

I don't need to have physical evidence that something is false to fairly dismiss it as such. No one will ever prove that invisible and intangible monkeys aren't defecating on everyone's heads, but I sure as hell don't believe it to be true.

BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IT'S THE WORD OF GOD.

And that's because there's no real evidence of God to form any real conclusion.

If God exists and it actually knows of humanity and actually watched as everything occurred, it's guilty of the greatest act of negligence the world has ever known. It's only natural because it is God's fault that all of this occurred. It would be God that created everything and let everything go to shit.

No we don't. Your actions are based off previous reactions. You're entirely based upon your environment, and act according to a situation in the same way everything else does. You have about as much free will as a rock does.

Let's take this apart.

First, people were not aware of good or evil until they ate the Fruit of Knowledge from its tree. The kick in the balls here is that this tree was placed in easy reach of Adam and Eve when they were nothing but ignorant children. The fact that he was omniscient and still decided to do this is utterly absurd, and only shows that he desired for this to occur.

Second, in the Bible he interferes in peoples' will all the time. For example, killing everyone and everything on the planet but a single boat. Yeah, that's not him sticking his fingers in our business, right?

Any problems caused by humans are a result of God's negligence, if you follow the Bible's words.

Then it's not a test, because he is already aware of the outcome.

Apply this to everything else, at anyone and everyone that goes to hell, and their entire lives. God was utterly aware of the actions that they would perform --that they were fated to do, and could not escape from-- and allowed them to be led into eternal damnation. That's utterly uncaring and leads me to think that the God of the Bible is quite the sadist.

No, it doesn't matter. God has stated that all evil is the same in his eyes. That means whether you steal a loaf of bread to save your starving family or only because you're greedy, you still committed sin in his eyes.

Evidence.

Impossible. If God is omniscient, then he is already aware of our intentions. The Bible supports this by saying that God plans anything and everything that occurs.

First of all, while I believe in the bible, it shouldn't be used as a factual source in this debate because no currently alive can prove 100% that it is truly the word of God. (Oh, and this may be out of order or condensed in regards to the quote above)

Secondly, God gave us free will. If he made us all perfect, we'd be kindness robots. And why would God make a bunch of things that couldn't do anything but good. God gave us the ability to choose, and that is, in my opinion, the greatest gift any God could give. Some may call that imperfection, but I think that is true perfection. I like free will much better than having no choice, and basically being a slave to God.

And about suffering. You can't have free will without somebody getting burned. But the thing is, if you do good in the world of your own free world, you get ETERNAL happiness. I would trade eighty years of possible suffering for existance and the possibility of eternal happiness with God, wouldn't you?

Next, God only interferes with people if we are beyond the brink of redemption. Remember God's little promise never to flood the world again? So, obviously, the world is never going to get that bad again because God can see all time.

Which leads me to the point that while God can see the future, he still lets it play out. Would you rather God judge us right now and tell you and me we are damned to hell for something we haven't done yet. No he lets us learn from our mistakes and try our hardest, even if we fail.

And finally, God only damns you to eternal suffering if you rebuke all of his attempts to save you. All you have to do to get God's forgiveness is to be truly sorry and prove it. That's more merciful than any other person I know.

And this topic should not be deleted. It is a very interesting debate that forces both sides to think about their beliefs and see the other side's ideas as well as their own. I have not only learned a lot, but have even solidified my position even more. And I hope no one here is offended by anything I say, because I mean no harm at all by my statements. I am just stating my beliefs. As for flaming, this is just a debate, not an epic battle for mankind's survival. Just chill out and talk.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Ragnell

[Phoenix]

First of all, while I believe in the bible, it shouldn't be used as a factual source in this debate because no currently alive can prove 100% that it is truly the word of God. (Oh, and this may be out of order or condensed in regards to the quote above)

Secondly, God gave us free will. If he made us all perfect, we'd be kindness robots. And why would God make a bunch of things that couldn't do anything but good. God gave us the ability to choose, and that is, in my opinion, the greatest gift any God could give. Some may call that imperfection, but I think that is true perfection. I like free will much better than having no choice, and basically being a slave to God.

And about suffering. You can't have free will without somebody getting burned. But the thing is, if you do good in the world of your own free world, you get ETERNAL happiness. I would trade eighty years of possible suffering for existance and the possibility of eternal happiness with God, wouldn't you?

Next, God only interferes with people if we are beyond the brink of redemption. Remember God's little promise never to flood the world again? So, obviously, the world is never going to get that bad again because God can see all time.

Which leads me to the point that while God can see the future, he still lets it play out. Would you rather God judge us right now and tell you and me we are damned to hell for something we haven't done yet. No he lets us learn from our mistakes and try our hardest, even if we fail.

And finally, God only damns you to eternal suffering if you rebuke all of his attempts to save you. All you have to do to get God's forgiveness is to be truly sorry and prove it. That's more merciful than any other person I know.

And this topic should not be deleted. It is a very interesting debate that forces both sides to think about their beliefs and see the other side's ideas as well as their own. I have not only learned a lot, but have even solidified my position even more. And I hope no one here is offended by anything I say, because I mean no harm at all by my statements. I am just stating my beliefs. As for flaming, this is just a debate, not an epic battle for mankind's survival. Just chill out and talk.

This is basically what I said, just with a summary instead of my slightly doctrinalized break downs :P

I don't get how they can keep throwing the same stuff at us regarding a contradictory God. I already blasted those with logic and facts about the Bible. What are they on?

[Phoenix]

jew

Whadyoumean?

[Florete]

jew

Please try to actually contribute to the topic. As Phoenix said, we can't even be sure if you're saying you are a Jew or...something else.

[Esau of Isaac]

So you honestly saying that you don't think anyone was offended or upset about this topic? You don't think anyone now thinks more negatively about others?

I don't think it matters whether others were offended or not. If you don't like it, you're free to stop posting.

First of all, while I believe in the bible, it shouldn't be used as a factual source in this debate because no currently alive can prove 100% that it is truly the word of God. (Oh, and this may be out of order or condensed in regards to the quote above)

Agreed.

Secondly, God gave us free will.

I contest that, depending on what your definition of free will is. We are fated to make choices, even in the Bible's eyes.

If he made us all perfect, we'd be kindness robots.

So are you calling God a kindness robot? Kind of insulting, isn't it?

In this sense, then, is it bad to be perfect? I believe you're trying to argue that perfection is imperfect. You are confusing me.

And why would God make a bunch of things that couldn't do anything but good.

Why would he do anything but that, if he's a completely good being?

God gave us the ability to choose, and that is, in my opinion, the greatest gift any God could give. Some may call that imperfection, but I think that is true perfection. I like free will much better than having no choice, and basically being a slave to God.

First, are you saying that God cannot choose anything, and you are therefore better than him?

Second, were he omnipotent, could he not create it such that free will exists, but people choose only good things?

Third, are you not already a slave to God since you do exactly what God plans for you?

And about suffering. You can't have free will without somebody getting burned. But the thing is, if you do good in the world of your own free world, you get ETERNAL happiness. I would trade eighty years of possible suffering for existance and the possibility of eternal happiness with God, wouldn't you?

If God existed, I might think about it. But then I reject the idea of eternal happiness anyways, as the most ridiculous pipe dream humanity has ever imagined.

Next, God only interferes with people if we are beyond the brink of redemption. Remember God's little promise never to flood the world again? So, obviously, the world is never going to get that bad again because God can see all time.

Inconsequential. It was argued that God does not interfere, and that is the reason why he never steps forth. Clearly, he does so at several points in time, thus invalidating the idea that God doesn't interfere in others' will. If it were about things that were beyond redemption, he could have fixed it before it happens. There is no excuse.

Which leads me to the point that while God can see the future, he still lets it play out. Would you rather God judge us right now and tell you and me we are damned to hell for something we haven't done yet. No he lets us learn from our mistakes and try our hardest, even if we fail.

Because he knows that those individuals will fail before he makes them, what he does is totally wrong. Anyone and everyone that ends up in hell is totally his fault, because he knew they would be there before they were made, he knew they would be there while they were being made, he knew they would be there as they proceeded to make the decisions that had been set out before them, and he knew they would be there when they were on their death bed.

That is a disgusting act of negligence, and ridiculously unfair for any person that has ever had the unfortunate fate of going to hell, assuming it exists. I would rather God keep bad things from happening in the first place than letting everything turn out so badly.

And finally, God only damns you to eternal suffering if you rebuke all of his attempts to save you. All you have to do to get God's forgiveness is to be truly sorry and prove it. That's more merciful than any other person I know.

That's not merciful at all. You can go to hell for something as simple as dying without accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Considering that God's existence is yet completely unverified, arguing that his position is merciful is absolutely ridiculous.

[Phoenix]

People still on the God can't do anything that seems mean if he's perfect thing? WTF, mate?

Hasn't anyone ever heard of the greater good? How about a long journey? A friggin great plan? Anything? Why does a God have to humor the modern world's standard of Good? It's not like they even know what that is. It doesn't have any real wait against the existence of God. Bad stuff happens, it's not God's fault it's ours. Get over it. IF you want to end all wars just kill ever single person who opposes peace. If you want evidence against God, wait til we all die out. IF you want to prove it now, don't go on about God being required to fix our problems. That's insanity. God fixing things outright won't fix it indefinitely and that should be obvious.

[Defeatist Elitist]

People still on the God can't do anything that seems mean if he's perfect thing? WTF, mate?

Hasn't anyone ever heard of the greater good? How about a long journey? A friggin great plan? Anything? Why does a God have to humor the modern world's standard of Good? It's not like they even know what that is. It doesn't have any real wait against the existence of God. Bad stuff happens, it's not God's fault it's ours. Get over it. IF you want to end all wars just kill ever single person who opposes peace. If you want evidence against God, wait til we all die out. IF you want to prove it now, don't go on about God being required to fix our problems. That's insanity. God fixing things outright won't fix it indefinitely and that should be obvious.

You miss the point. The point is that Religion seems to base everything off the fact that God is some sort of entity free of anything, who no matter what we could never understand, ever, and has perfect control over everything and will always be perfect forever, which is, by definition, ridiculous.

[Phoenix]

You miss the point. The point is that Religion seems to base everything off the fact that God is some sort of entity free of anything, who no matter what we could never understand, ever, and has perfect control over everything and will always be perfect forever, which is, by definition, ridiculous.

Like when someone says something that's totally over your head. It's not ridiculous, it's just unacceptable by normal standards. Big deal, get over it.