Religion.

[Dies Mori]

Don't stop him now, he's having such a good time!

Aha! So you admit to sullying the Revolution with your weak-minded "ideals". It's time for your reeducation.

Comrade, I urge you to revise yourself and remember it was Comrade Stalin who educated us in such a way in the manner of eliminating those foolish unpersons who dared oppose him. Please reconsider the persecution of your brothers.

In all honesty, a more valid point: was blind ignorance, and later thus religion, the opiate of the masses?

[Crystal Shards]

I could be wrong, but weren't tehse the same founding fathers who considered blacks 3/5 of a human?

Yes, but they didn't do it because they were all bigoted assholes; they did it for representation purposes. See The 3/5ths Compromise for more information. Basically, northern states didn't like the idea of slaves being counted as people (therefore giving the South more voting power) whereas southern states loved the idea, for obvious reasons.

Nice try, though.

[Dies Mori]

It wasn't a try, Crys, just a mere question, though I do agree on the usage of that to cede the masses into line. Look at Lincoln's compromise a mere few generations passing and how the south, hypocrites as they were, failed in their endeavor. Although, it's not to say these founding fathers of yours were so infallible, as some diplomatic situations (such as averting war with France and the like) would be considered very unopportunistic.

On a more amusing note: "they did it for representation" as they fought against "taxation without representation." Just found that interesting.

Edited November 28, 2008 by Winston Smith

[Le Communard]

Don't stop him now, he's having such a good time!

Correction: Don't do it and, and act like your serious.

Comrade, I urge you to revise yourself and remember it was Comrade Stalin who educated us in such a way in the manner of eliminating those foolish unpersons who dared oppose him. Please reconsider the persecution of your brothers.

Don't try and spin that yarn to me, non-person. Your permanent revolution nonsense will not be tolerated here. To the Joycamp!

Edited November 28, 2008 by Commissar Gaunt

[Crystal Shards]

It wasn't a try, Crys, just a mere question, though I do agree on the usage of that to cede the masses into line. Look at Lincoln's compromise a mere few generations passing and how the south, hypocrites as they were, failed in their endeavor. Although, it's not to say these founding fathers of yours were so infallible, as some diplomatic situations (such as averting war with France and the like) would be considered very unopportunistic.

On a more amusing note: "they did it for representation" as they fought against "taxation without representation." Just found that interesting.

Sorry, I misunderstood your intent. I don't find them infallible at all, however; if they were infallible they wouldn't have allowed slavery to begin with and women would have been able to hold property and vote and all that fun stuff.

[Esau of Isaac]

Death is obviously being satirical, but nevertheless:

Evolution is only a theory,

Inconsequential, and an ignorant jab at scientific theories, which are in essence the highest accolade a scientific idea can achieve.

you can't prove it any more than intelligent design can be, the difference is that intelligent design is TRUE.

Evidence.

We are asked to do just a few things, just to follow a book, and we will then live forever in heaven with, is it really that hard?

It's hard for me to adhere to morals of a being I find despicable, whose existence has never been confirmed at any point.

What is there to understand? God is obviously there. You might be asking me how I know this, well.. it's because I am Jesus. Through me all of your sins will be forgiven, the rapture is coming.

Evidence.

Homosexuality? Nobody is born gay, they all choose it. I can't prove it, and differences in the minds of heterosexual and homosexual humans have been found, but come on, have faith.

If you can't prove it, it is fair to dismiss the opinion.

And no they should not be getting married, God told the founding fathers to make sure that only a man and a woman can be married and they said okay

Evidence.

Evolution? Do you look like a monkey? No, shut up.

Monkeys and humans are a common ancestor, not directly related.

Observed in nature? No, I made it look that way just to test all of you, and a lot failed.

Evidence.

Just saying, but, "2+2=5" is only a "fact" because mathematics is a closed system. In a real world situation, even fact is a lot stretcher than you give it credit for. For example, if my definition of the concept of "two" were different, it could be possible to argue that, even within the bounds of math, 2+2=5.

You can change the number all you like, but the value represented by four is constant, and in a base ten system, two plus two does not equal the value represented by five.

Don't stop him now, he's having such a good time!

Having a good time, having a ball? If you're ready for a good time, just give him a call?

[lolDeath]

You just tore apart a post you knew was a complete and total joke.. I think I love you.

Though there actually was one small point behind the entire thing, debating religion from a Christian point of view is completely pointless, they have absolutely no facts to back up anything they say (which is more often than not incorrect).

[Dies Mori]

You have to quite be proud of the man for attempting to debate the mirror image of everything he believes in; the holes, painstakingly pathetic points and sad moral explanation going along with "scripture or it didn't happen" line of thinking is very accurate.

Really, no offense to you Roman Catholics, but I think Aristotle/Plato/Aristarchus/somephilosopherwaybackwhen had the best possible appealing proof of God, as you would consider it:

"If we choose to believe in God, we sacrifice a number of sinful pleasures in exchange for eternal life and gratitude in heaven. If we choose not to, we instead partake in them. Should God exist and we followed the former, we are granted eternal salvation, yet should he not, we gave the majority of humanly delights away. However, should he exist and we did partake, then we are greeted with eternal damnation.

Now would any logical gambler think a few sinful pleasures are worth risking eternal damnation for?"

----PS. For any Catholics getting their hopes up, this was supposed to be aimed at the agnostics.

[Phoenix Wright]

-How can you tell they think differently when they haven't come out the closet yet? When are the tests being done? Before or after the fact they are gay? Really, of course a homosexual person would think differently, just like a man and a woman think differently.

-Also, if I remember correctly, monkeys' DNA is also very close to the average human. (99% right?)

Basically, we can't prove that we don't evolve, and we can't prove we do evolve. These arguments are going no where.

Also, if Christians accept other animals evolving, why not humans?

Another [last] thing to add: People make the environment adapt, we don't adapt to the environment. Excluding clothing.

[lolDeath]

-How can you tell they think differently when they haven't come out the closet yet? When are the tests being done? Before or after the fact they are gay? Really, of course a homosexual person would think differently, just like a man and a woman think differently.

-Also, if I remember correctly, monkeys' DNA is also very close to the average human. (99% right?)

Basically, we can't prove that we don't evolve, and we can't prove we do evolve. These arguments are going no where.

Also, if Christians accept other animals evolving, why not humans?

Another [last] thing to add: People make the environment adapt, we don't adapt to the environment. Excluding clothing.

1. Where did this come from? Actual differences in the brain have been found.

2. Evolution has been observed in nature, if you honestly believe that humans do not evolve when pretty much everything else does, I'm sorry but you are an idiot.

3. Because they are blinded by faith.

4. No people don't.

[Phoenix Wright]

1. Where did this come from? Actual differences in the brain have been found.

Ah, OK

2. Evolution has been observed in nature, if you honestly believe that humans do not evolve when pretty much everything else does, I'm sorry but you are an idiot.

....I know that. *facepalm* I believe we DO evolve, I don't believe we evolved from monkeys. Maybe we did though, if I remember correctly, in the seven days God made everything, normal animals were made first. Maybe he toyed with a damn monkey and made Adam. WHO KNOWS?

3. Because they are blinded by faith.

Faith doesn't say we didn't evolve from monkeys. It could be true.

4. No people don't.

*cough* Infrastructure, anyone? Homes, anyone?

Yeah, we do...in some ways we don't and I know that.

[lolDeath]

I don't even feel like going into this, I am too down, will someone please point out the flaws here?

Edited November 29, 2008 by Death

[Defeatist Elitist]

I don't believe we evolved from monkeys. Maybe we did though, if I remember correctly, in the seven days God made everything, normal animals were made first. Maybe he toyed with a damn monkey and made Adam. WHO KNOWS?

Uh, I do?

We know things like Australopithecus, Homo Habilus, etc, existed, and we know that we are descended from them.

[Phoenix Wright]

Uh, I do?

We know things like Australopithecus, Homo Habilus, etc, existed, and we know that we are descended from them.

If we KNOW, then why is there still disbelief? It is a theory.

Uh...Death I'm agreeing with you [sorta]. Are you trying to prove yourself wrong?

[lolDeath]

No, I am "sorta" disagreeing with you.

[Phoenix Wright]

No, I am "sorta" disagreeing with you.

About what? I'm saying it could be true...why would you disagree?

Or do you mean this part?:

Another [last] thing to add: People make the environment adapt, we don't adapt to the environment. Excluding clothing.

[Cynthia]

Well, this religious debate aside, I would like to say that I do indeed have a religion, and I am not atheist or agnostic. As shocking as it sounds. However, my religious belief is based on the idea of what religion should be, and not what it has become.

Religion SHOULD be a set of morals to live by to make one a better person. Not answering questions about the unknown, not about proving who is right and who is wrong. Religion is supposed to be about having something to help you be a good person, not about "finding God," or answering, "why we're here?" Religion is supposed to be something each of us live by in a manner of our choosing to make us all better people.

I myself am of the Pagan faith, however before you judge me, allow me to say that the Pagan faith is GREATLY misunderstood these days, and these new age "poser," pagans make it much harder to see what it's truly about. There are a lot of them out there who simply say they are pagan because they want to be, "different," or, "unique," when all they really are a majority of the time is gothic, or emo, or scene people. Whatever other labels they choose to go by. The fact of the matter is, there is NO such thing as black magic or curses, those were made up by the Church a LONG time ago. In fact the Pagan faith condemns the harming of humans. It condemns killing, and there is no form of magic that is capable of harming another human. People who claim to have such powers are simply posers. The Pagan faith also speaks AGAINST converting people. I have NEVER met another Pagan who converted anyone in my entire life, and I have met SEVERAL.

The TRUE Pagan faith first of all is NOT set in stone. There is no specific way for all Pagans to follow. Each Pagan is different, and each follow different teachings. Paganism is mainly a worship of nature though, and can be polytheistic, or monotheistic.

I personally am what is called a, "Moral Pagan." This means I do not follow any Gods or Goddesses, and I worship nothing. You do NOT need to worship anything to be Pagan. The reason I am still pagan is because I follow their morals and values, and some of their customs. I pray not to speak to God, or a higher power, but to say that I am thankful for what I have, and that I am grateful for the good things in my life. I don't thank anyone for them but myself and the people who gave them to me. It's merely a set of values that make me feel like a better person, and help me through life.

I'm not telling anyone to follow me, I'm not arguing over being right or wrong, I'm simply using my customs and values to make myself a better person. What religion SHOULD be about. When did religion become this big hunt to prove who was right and who was wrong, I'll never know.

[Defeatist Elitist]

If we KNOW, then why is there still disbelief? It is a theory.

What disbelief? If you mean that some people don't accept it, then it's because they're wrong. We do know that evolution is fact.

[WyvernSageLord]

Debates like this are always the ones that give me a massive headache. ~_~

Oh well, might as well add my two cents. I'm Christian, and I believe in God and accept Jesus Christ as my savior. However, what I ALSO understand is how this world in which He put us in works, and I tend to be more open minded about it. And as I've grown, there are some things that I hold my own belief over in spite of my faith.

One, Homosexuality. As much as the bible says against it? The fact of the matter is, I believe that it's not really 'chosen' that they be homosexuals. Because that's just part of who they are; if everyone wanted to choose their sexuality, then everyone would be man and woman, but I don't find that to be the case.

I don't discriminate against Homos. Those who fanatically do are those who give us a bad name. God teaches us acceptance, and yet they refuse to understand that in their self-righteous ways.

Two, there are people who hold their own beliefs, and that is their choice. If that is what they desire, and whatnot? Then I've not the right to speak out against it. Though the only thing I'm mainly against is fanaticism, those who tend to give religion a bad name. I'm not going to force my beliefs on anyone, nor will I ever.

Please forgive me if I offend someone here. *Prepares to get flamed*

Edited November 29, 2008 by WyvernSageLord

[Magical CC]

I dont have any Religion....

[Cynthia]

Seriously, I would like to know why religion has become a debate of who is right and who is wrong, and not about doing what is right, and living good lives?

NO religion should be saying others are wrong, or forcing others to believe theirs. It's not about being right or wrong, that's the big issue that seems to come into play these days though. It's as if people stopped caring about trying to better themselves and instead would rather prove they are better than someone else by being right...

[Defeatist Elitist]

Seriously, I would like to know why religion has become a debate of who is right and who is wrong, and not about doing what is right, and living good lives?

NO religion should be saying others are wrong, or forcing others to believe theirs. It's not about being right or wrong, that's the big issue that seems to come into play these days though. It's as if people stopped caring about trying to better themselves and instead would rather prove they are better than someone else by being right...

I think the problem lies in when they stop claiming to simply be forms of moral codes, and when they begin to see themselves as having actual facts. That is where the conflict arises.

[California Mountain Snake]

Faith doesn't say we didn't evolve from monkeys. It could be true.

No one who actually understands evolutionary theory claims people evolved from monkeys. Chimps and humans once shared a common ancestor, but both species have digressed heavily from there.

The fact that this thread has degraded into tearing down unfairly constructed strawman arguments prevents me from posting further in this, but I fear I am too late for already I hear a sucking sound at the back of my brain.

[Esau of Isaac]

Basically, we can't prove that we don't evolve, and we can't prove we do evolve. These arguments are going no where.

Wait, wait, why can't we prove people are evolving?

Also, if Christians accept other animals evolving, why not humans?

Which kind of hurts the above argument that we can't prove it?

Another [last] thing to add: People make the environment adapt, we don't adapt to the environment. Excluding clothing.

...Yes, we do adapt to the environment. We have been for a very long time, and will continue to. We utilize the environment in a far greater fashion, and don't always adapt in the same ways as others, but we're still adapting to our surroundings.

....I know that. *facepalm* I believe we DO evolve, I don't believe we evolved from monkeys. Maybe we did though, if I remember correctly, in the seven days God made everything, normal animals were made first. Maybe he toyed with a damn monkey and made Adam. WHO KNOWS?

People who are educated in evolutionary biology. Humans and monkeys are related, but not directly. They're both the result of branching off from a common ancestor.

Faith doesn't say we didn't evolve from monkeys. It could be true.

You're right, faith doesn't say we didn't evolve from monkeys; the evidence says that we did not.

If we KNOW, then why is there still disbelief? It is a theory.

There's disbelief because some morons reject what is logical to believe in their religious preferences; that's why, for the most part.

Don't try and attack the theory because it's a theory; it's all it's ever going to be, you could have a time machine that maps out the genealogy of every single organism that has ever existed and it would remain a theory.

Edited November 29, 2008 by Esau of Isaac

[Cynthia]

I thought this topic was about stating what religion you follow, not about debating whose is right and whose is wrong...?