Religion.

[TLSothe]

For the, uh- homosexuality thing, well, I'm bisexual. I sure as fuck didn't choose to be.

[Nightgraves]

Let me try and break it down for you why an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, perfect being is wrong:

[...]

I do no expect to understand something that goes beyond human minds. Saying you understand why a perfect being is impossible is a little too much. I think that talks for itself.

As for the whys he can't do some things as you say, you cannot also speak. Why? Simply because you think about contraries as human living in our perspective of the universe- which is flawed and small.

As for the Bible and "it's nonsense" you speak of. How the heck do you expect people of that age writting something they shouldn't be knowing about??? That wouldn't be smart, and by now things would have been different.

[Leonri]

As for the Bible and "it's nonsense" you speak of. How the heck do you expect people of that age writting something they shouldn't be knowing about??? That wouldn't be smart, and by now things would have been different.

But you still trust these primitive people on the existence of a God, with no proof. They hadn't a clue about astrophysics, yet many believe their theory on the creation of the universe.

[Dies Mori]

Religion SHOULD be a set of morals to live by to make one a better person. Not answering questions about the unknown, not about proving who is right and who is wrong. Religion is supposed to be about having something to help you be a good person, not about "finding God," or answering, "why we're here?" Religion is supposed to be something each of us live by in a manner of our choosing to make us all better people.

While your take on this entire matter is quite correct and ambivalent, I'd like to make it clear that Morality is based off the concept of religion in the first place, primarily the olden kind (Judaism, Paganism, Egyptian/Greek/Roman variants, etc.), while the remainder falls into the sub-category of ethics. Ever wonder why businesses choose to go by this term rather than "Morals?"

I myself am of the Pagan faith, however before you judge me, allow me to say that the Pagan faith is GREATLY misunderstood these days, and these new age "poser," pagans make it much harder to see what it's truly about. There are a lot of them out there who simply say they are pagan because they want to be, "different," or, "unique," when all they really are a majority of the time is gothic, or emo, or scene people. Whatever other labels they choose to go by. The fact of the matter is, there is NO such thing as black magic or curses, those were made up by the Church a LONG time ago. In fact the Pagan faith condemns the harming of humans. It condemns killing, and there is no form of magic that is capable of harming another human. People who claim to have such powers are simply posers. The Pagan faith also speaks AGAINST converting people. I have NEVER met another Pagan who converted anyone in my entire life, and I have met SEVERAL.

I think I may love you, and yes, you are completely right; several Christians have come out with this opinion several times, despite their allegiance to the Church, primordially those charged with the execution of the "heretics." Sir Thomas More, The Duke of Norfolk, Cato's line and Barbarossa come to mind.

As for the Bible and "it's nonsense" you speak of. How the heck do you expect people of that age writting something they shouldn't be knowing about??? That wouldn't be smart, and by now things would have been different.

Nitey, no offense, but this is a very slippery slope you're attempting to climb; for one, the Bible has gone through countless renditions to begin with (King James II, anybody), so it's not to say the men who wrote it did so to appease a particular power, entity or ruler.

On another note, Citrusman, you're 14 and clearly not too well informed on the concept of evolution; read more, post less. Points such as:

...Yes, we do adapt to the environment. We have been for a very long time, and will continue to. We utilize the environment in a far greater fashion, and don't always adapt in the same ways as others, but we're still adapting to our surroundings.

Show a rather great disregard for history, particularly to the point the environment and humanity have constantly been at adaption with each other. If a tribe accustomed to living in lush green fields suddenly is displaced into a desert, they WILL reformat their way of life for survival.

Edited November 29, 2008 by Winston Smith

[Balcerzak]

Quantum mechanics is a theory, so it's slightly dissenting as to you referring to it as fact, though I do see your point of view.

Evolution is only a theory, you can't prove it any more than intelligent design can be, the difference is that intelligent design is TRUE.

"Only a theory" fails.

1) Quantum Mechanics is proven fact. Grossly misunderstood and misquoted by many, but proven fact.

2) Evolution is proven fact. Grossly misunderstood and misquoted by many, but proven fact.

As far as on topic goes, I am an atheist and currently don't subscribe to any religion, but if I did—or end up doing so in the future—the religion I think is closest to my belief system is probably (LaVeyan) Satanism.

[Esau of Isaac]

I do no expect to understand something that goes beyond human minds.

The terms are logically defined. Don't use another flimsy dodge so often used by others.

You don't win arguments by further invalidating the use of the being you're arguing for.

Saying you understand why a perfect being is impossible is a little too much. I think that talks for itself.

That perfect is impossible, or that perfect cannot be understood?

As for the whys he can't do some things as you say, you cannot also speak. Why? Simply because you think about contraries as human living in our perspective of the universe- which is flawed and small.

It's not flawed, and it's not small in the slightest. The more you speak of how we cannot debate on the subject because your God doesn't apply, the more you're hurting your position. Because you need an even farther assumption; that somehow the words that they are described with are not applicable to them.

As for the Bible and "it's nonsense" you speak of. How the heck do you expect people of that age writting something they shouldn't be knowing about??? That wouldn't be smart, and by now things would have been different.

If it's imperfect, then why do you trust any of its words at all?

The second you start on this, you're going to lose. Because trusting a several-thousand-year-old book to be true about something that is incredibly ridiculous and whose evidence has not been shown, but then saying that we can't trust their words on something that has been proven wrong scientifically is incredibly illogical. And speaking of the Bible as though it is infallible is also lacking in reasonable thinking.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Phoenix Wright]

You speak of all this "logic."

Tell me, how can you go through life using only logic? Science doesn't have the answers, and neither do you.

Science cannot tell us how the first atom came to be, only a lame hypothesis can be formed. Speaking of, science also has no way to prove the Big Bang actually happened.

I DO believe people evolve. I SORTA believe we came from monkeys, for the sole reason that science has not come far enough yet to prove that we have evolved from said animal.

[Judge Judy]

Speaking of, science also has no way to prove the Big Bang actually happened.

The big bang is a strong theory. Scientist have proven that Universe is still expanding...

[Ragnell]

You speak of all this "logic."

Tell me, how can you go through life using only logic? Science doesn't have the answers, and neither do you.

Science cannot tell us how the first atom came to be, only a lame hypothesis can be formed. Speaking of, science also has no way to prove the Big Bang actually happened.

I DO believe people evolve. I SORTA believe we came from monkeys, for the sole reason that science has not come far enough yet to prove that we have evolved from said animal.

I agree completely. As I said before, I am Catholic, and don't believe completely in the whole Adam and Eve thing. But still, how do you explain how the first organic molecule appeared? It would have to come from a non-living thing. And abiogenisis was disproved a long time ago. Rocks don't evolve into living things. So the evolution argument is pointless here.

And if you believe in the Big Bang and science, how did the Big Bang occur? One of the most famous laws in science is matter cannot be created or destroyed. And Einstein's work connected matter and energy, so energy cannot be created/destroyed either. Therefore, some form of energy had to fuel the Big bang. And where did that energy come from, and where did the next energy come from. Somewhere along the line, the laws of physics are disregarded. And if that doesn't support some kind of intelligent design, I don't know what does.

And yes, people can't understand any God. They do not function under the same laws as we do, so how can we expect to? With a divine being, 1 could equal 3 or 1 could equal 10. All logic we use is pointless when focusing on a being ABOVE science.

[Dies Mori]

You speak of all this "logic."

Tell me, how can you go through life using only logic? Science doesn't have the answers, and neither do you.

Science cannot tell us how the first atom came to be, only a lame hypothesis can be formed. Speaking of, science also has no way to prove the Big Bang actually happened.

I DO believe people evolve. I SORTA believe we came from monkeys, for the sole reason that science has not come far enough yet to prove that we have evolved from said animal.

I'll say this in the kindest form possible: you are not arguing anything.

1. log⋅ic

Bork

 /ˈlɒdʒɪk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [loj-ik] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

1. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.

2. You ask how we can carry life about in this manner? We can, because not only is it existent, it's involuntary. If you happen to be crossing the street and see a cat, saying "it's a cat" will be logical reasoning, not because the bible told you it was.

3. Science doesn't have all the questions, yes, but at least their answers are realistic. The Bible's method of answer is either "God made it" or nonexistent.

4. *facepalm* READ, good sir, we did not descend from monkeys, but a common ancestor.

[Phoenix]

I would also like to point out something that should be obvious to everybody.

I do remember saying this before elsewhere and it will probably blow up into intellectual BS arguments later but "Oh vell, here gos."

This universe we live in isn't gigantic, humungous, or even enormous... it's seemingly infinite with a few sextillian galaxies floating away from each other at a patience destroying rate. Now there's this tiny teal spec in space called Earth with a bunch of lifeforms running around questioning their own existence. Every individual is unique and every single one of them is going to keep coming up with new and strange ideas. Religions, origin theories, and some new sexual orientations. It all falls into the same catagory of thinking up new ways to do things. I would know, I do this all the time myself with philisophical ideas that I apply to counter depression. So everyone debating anything is saying that they are right based on a combination of the following: Personal proof, facts based on a concept of reality and interpretation, other people's research which they readily accept, and pride which is required to hold onto any religion or slightly illogical belief. Yeah... I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that human beings aren't powerful enough, smart enough, advanced enough, or humble enough to determine anything as important as the existence of God or the correctness of a religion. Why not just agree to disagree. If the Catholics are right then me and the Athiests are doomed, and if the Athiests are right then we should live our lives to the fullest cause we're dead and gone forever afterward, and if I'm right in my anti Christian beliefs rejoice cause everybody wins in the end! Sorry I wanted to throw some jackass in at the end of that statement :D

[Defeatist Elitist]

I agree completely. As I said before, I am Catholic, and don't believe completely in the whole Adam and Eve thing. But still, how do you explain how the first organic molecule appeared? It would have to come from a non-living thing. And abiogenisis was disproved a long time ago. Rocks don't evolve into living things. So the evolution argument is pointless here.

And if you believe in the Big Bang and science, how did the Big Bang occur? One of the most famous laws in science is matter cannot be created or destroyed. And Einstein's work connected matter and energy, so energy cannot be created/destroyed either. Therefore, some form of energy had to fuel the Big bang. And where did that energy come from, and where did the next energy come from. Somewhere along the line, the laws of physics are disregarded. And if that doesn't support some kind of intelligent design, I don't know what does.

And yes, people can't understand any God. They do not function under the same laws as we do, so how can we expect to? With a divine being, 1 could equal 3 or 1 could equal 10. All logic we use is pointless when focusing on a being ABOVE science.

First of all, they have, IN LABS actually recreated a situation in which simple proteins could be created. So yeah, life can start itself.

Big Bang: We've actually been experimenting with things. We CAN turn matter into energy, and vice versa, it's just really hard. Big Bang has a lot of evidence.

So, we can't understand God, because God is above us, he doesn't function under our laws, etc. Basically, he doesn't function in reality, thus he is unreal. Which means he doesn't exist. Trust me, saying that God exists without any sort of Science or logic on him is REALLY retarded.

Besides, tell me seriously how it is at all possible for him to create an unstoppable force and an immovable object. Just do it.

[Kintenbo]

4. *facepalm* READ, good sir, we did not descend from monkeys, but a common ancestor.

Just a quick thing, but isn't evolution still just a theory, or am I just behind with my scientific stuff? There's been a ton of evolution stuff being thrown around. Just curious.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Just a quick thing, but isn't evolution still just a theory, or am I just behind with my scientific stuff? There's been a ton of evolution stuff being thrown around. Just curious.

You can say it's just a theory, the same way you can say Gravity is just a theory. :D

[Kintenbo]

You can say it's just a theory, the same way you can say Gravity is just a theory. :D

I thought gravity was a law, but what do I know of the nitty-gritty aspects of science?

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

I failed to see how committing homosexuality a sin according to Christianity. That's one thing I cannot find any logic for...

[Kintenbo]

I failed to see how committing homosexuality a sin according to Christianity. That's one thing I cannot find any logic for...

I think it was a way of saying, "you're not going to have kids doing it that way, man". That, or some other aspects we haven't discovered yet.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I thought gravity was a law, but what do I know of the nitty-gritty aspects of science?

I don't want to explain this too much, so I'll link you, but basically, most scientific facts are "theories".

Quote:

"In science the word theory is not a synonym of "fact". For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet but we invoke theories of gravity to explain this occurrence. However, even inside the sciences the word theory picks out several different concepts dependent on the context. In casual speech scientists don't use the term theory in a particularly precise fashion, allowing historical accidents to determine whether a given body of scientific work is called a theory, law, principle or something else. For instance Einstein's relativity is usually called "the theory of relativity" while Newton's theory of gravity often is called "the law of gravity." In this kind of casual use by scientists the word theory can be used flexibly to refer to whatever kind of explanation or prediction is being examined. It is for this instance that a scientific theory is a claim based on a body of evidence."

[uguu]

I really shouldn't be posting in this thread seeing as how I've only skimmed minimal posts and read a few one line , and have also read none of the bible but bleh.

Firstly, How does Adam and Eve make sense? Their certainly are more than 2 races, so even if Adam and Eve were to be different races then how would that account for multiple other races? And do you really think that this world would've been this populated by this point in time if it started out as only two humans?

Secondly, Noah's Ark, how would an old man build a giant boat and get 2 of each animal on the boat, each being a different gender (you know he had to check...), and then (as far as I'm aware of) not take any humans on the boat? How would the world repopulate with humans if all that was left was Noah unless the bible supports beastiality and the babies just happened to be closer to human (or God made another Adam and another Eve)

Third, I know that some people may believe in some parts of the bible and not others, but why? If one part of the bible is true then wouldn't the rest of the bible be true if it was instructed to be written by/written by God?

Fourth, why would God make homosexuality a sin if he's creating the homosexual humans and making them homosexual? I mean, God would be making them homosexual on purpose if they're homosexual wouldn't he?

(This post clearly sucks, I'm clearly an idiot, and parts of it have definately been stated earlier in this thread but whatever)

[Phoenix Wright]

*Cough* Laws of gravity can be extremely false! Throw a baseball 7 miles per second, and it will no longer be in control of [Earth's] gravity.

A baseball is the symbol for a spacecraft.

Jupiter has no real surface, just gases with a semi-solid core, if we were not already killed by gasses and pressure, we would be going fast enough to go right through the entire planet. Granted we would be crushed in by the core...but pretend it is fully gas.

The Big Bang in my opinion, is obsolete. Believing in the Big Bang is like believing in God ya know. A small, small dense ball just suddenly exploding out of nowhere and creating the never-ending universe, yeah right. You believe it happened, so why can't people like us believe in God?

3. Science doesn't have all the questions, yes, but at least their answers are realistic. The Bible's method of answer is either "God made it" or nonexistent.

You have no idea how hard that made me laugh on the inside.

Firstly, God made EVERYTHING, thus EVERYTHING being existent.

This just shows the amount of ignorance really. Of course science is gonna be realistic, it's freakin' science!

In case people didn't know, the people who wrote the Bible were obviously educated, thus knowing science pretty well. They were the logical ones of their time. Why are they not logical now? Because they are dead, and things they believed have been disproved? Exactly.

That goes for our time, what you consider "logic" today, might make you a complete lunatic if you believed it tomorrow.

Just a thought, logic today can be illogical tomorrow. But faith will NEVER end.

Third, I know that some people may believe in some parts of the bible and not others, but why? If one part of the bible is true then wouldn't the rest of the bible be true if it was instructed to be written by/written by God?

Normal religious folk do believe in all of it. God did not write it, His children did.

Fourth, why would God make homosexuality a sin if he's creating the homosexual humans and making them homosexual? I mean, God would be making them homosexual on purpose if they're homosexual wouldn't he?

Never heard of forgiveness? In my opinion, homosexuality isn't as bad a sin as even telling someone you hate them.

God forgives all, no matter what. A person might not forgive you, but He does.

---------

Sadly, I cannot answer the top two...very sad I can't. Maybe Kintenbo might. Or Ragnell.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Citrusman

[lolDeath]

I thought gravity was a law, but what do I know of the nitty-gritty aspects of science?

We can't even prove that water is wet, we simply observe it like with many other things.

[Defeatist Elitist]

*Cough* Laws of gravity can be extremely false! Throw a baseball 7 miles per second, and it will no longer be in control of [Earth's] gravity.

A baseball is the symbol for a spacecraft.

Jupiter has no real surface, just gases with a semi-solid core, if we were not already killed by gasses and pressure, we would be going fast enough to go right through the entire planet. Granted we would be crushed in by the core...but pretend it is fully gas.

The Big Bang in my opinion, is obsolete. Believing in the Big Bang is like believing in God ya know. A small, small dense ball just suddenly exploding out of nowhere and creating the never-ending universe, yeah right. You believe it happened, so why can't people like us believe in God?

You have no idea how hard that made me laugh on the inside.

Firstly, God made EVERYTHING, thus EVERYTHING being existent.

This just shows the amount of ignorance really. Of course science is gonna be realistic, it's freakin' science!

In case people didn't know, the people who wrote the Bible were obviously educated, thus knowing science pretty well. They were the logical ones of their time. Why are they not logical now? Because they are dead, and things they believed have been disproved? Exactly.

That goes for our time, what you consider "logic" today, might make you a complete lunatic if you believed it tomorrow.

Just a thought, logic today can be illogical tomorrow. But faith will NEVER end.

Normal religious folk do believe in all of it. God did not write it, His children did.

Never heard of forgiveness? In my opinion, homosexuality is as bad a sin as even telling someone you hate them.

God forgives all, no matter what. A person might not forgive you, but He does.

---------

Sadly, I cannot answer the top two...very sad I can't. Maybe Kintenbo might. Or Ragnell.

I'm going to say this now.

You have no goddamn idea what the hell you're talking about.

"*Cough* Laws of gravity can be extremely false! Throw a baseball 7 miles per second, and it will no longer be in control of [Earth's] gravity. "

This statement alone proves that. I can't even begin to explain how bad that is. THAT PROVES THE LAWS OF GRAVITY CORRECT! Know what the hell you're doing before you do it, OK?

[Phoenix Wright]

I'm going to say this now.

You have no goddamn idea what the hell you're talking about.

"*Cough* Laws of gravity can be extremely false! Throw a baseball 7 miles per second, and it will no longer be in control of [Earth's] gravity. "

This statement alone proves that. I can't even begin to explain how bad that is. THAT PROVES THE LAWS OF GRAVITY CORRECT! Know what the hell you're doing before you do it, OK?

But wouldn't that ball leave the atmosphere, and not being sucked back into Earth's gravitational pull?

Also, if you are not a Christian, what is the point of you saying the bolded? That is just a thought...

I NEVER stated the laws of gravity are false, I'm not a fucking retard. I'm just saying "What comes up, must come down" isn't always true.

BTW: I meant homosexuality ISN'T as bad a sin. Not IS. I edited it.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Citrusman

[Defeatist Elitist]

But wouldn't that ball leave the atmosphere, and not being sucked back into Earth's gravitational pull? I NEVER stated the laws of gravity are false, I'm not a fucking retard. I'm just saying "What comes up, must come down" isn't always true.

You don't understand Gravity. If you did, you wouldn't say that.

"What comes up must come down" isn't true, and in fact, it is something that is entirely logical and explained in Gravity.

Please, understand ideas before talking about them.

[Phoenix Wright]

You don't understand Gravity. If you did, you wouldn't say that.

"What comes up must come down" isn't true, and in fact, it is something that is entirely logical and explained in Gravity.

Please, understand ideas before talking about them.

Isn't that what I just said?

Gravity is easy to understand. It works like magnets. What am I not getting exactly? Maybe you should have higher expectations of me, instead of false judgment. If you WERE judging anyway, I'm not saying you were.