Why I don't consider the Crimson Flower ending to be the best ending for Fodland

[omegaxis1]

8 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

That might suggest the other nations outside of Fodlan might indeed be more advanced

Yup. The sad thing is that the Almyrans COULD have been expanded on in VW, but they dropped the ball on that one. They never bother to try and develop a country even a little bit in the route that is meant to dedicate itself to creating cultural exchange.

[Darkmoon6789]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yup. The sad thing is that the Almyrans COULD have been expanded on in VW, but they dropped the ball on that one. They never bother to try and develop a country even a little bit in the route that is meant to dedicate itself to creating cultural exchange.

I think the most I found out about them is what Edelgard said in her paralogue. Where she explains that Almyra follow a different religion than the goddess of Fodlan and that is might be the root of the conflict between them. Edelgard seems to be as willing to have a cultural exchange as Claude

It is a bit silly that it wasn't even from Claude and learned that about them. Granted, I don't remember if he mentioned that not, plod seems to worship nature itself, rather than the goddess. So maybe that is what most Almyrans do. It is also fairly clear that wyverns have some kind of cultural importance. To my understanding they are a warrior culture, kind of like vikings.

[vanguard333]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

That is what is considered, but we have to remember that the Srengs are apparently so strong that House Gautier needs to rely on the Lance of Ruin to do most of the fighting. Take that out, and suddenly Faerghus cannot hold Sreng back. It's a case where the Relics are basically the primary methods of combat against the invading forces. 

Funny enough, that reminds me: a lot of comparisons are made between Three Houses and Code Geass, but if you think about it:

A militaristic and isolationist region surrounded on all sides by hostile nations that are kept at bay through magic, a centuries-old conspiracy about the founding of the region, a group of villains that live underground and consider themselves above humanity, a political leader of incredible physical skill who obtained it from being the victim of a government experiment to create the "ideal leader", which resulted in a change to their physical appearance, and this region notably committed a genocide against an innocent group of people. 

Did I just describe Fodlan, or Amestris from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood?

[Darkmoon6789]

7 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Funny enough, that reminds me: a lot of comparisons are made between Three Houses and Code Geass, but if you think about it:

A militaristic and isolationist region surrounded on all sides by hostile nations that are kept at bay through magic, a centuries-old conspiracy about the founding of the region, a group of villains that live underground and consider themselves above humanity, a political leader of incredible physical skill who obtained it from being the victim of a government experiment to create the "ideal leader", which resulted in a change to their physical appearance, and this region notably committed a genocide against an innocent group of people. 

Did I just describe Fodlan, or Amestris from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood?

I can definitely see quite a few similarities. Would Edelgard the Fuhrer King Bradley? Or is there another character who was exposed to experiments to create the ideal leader? I don't think the two of them as much in common other than that. 

There is also a character who has done what is basically human transmutation with the intent to revive the dead in Fodlan, Rhea. 

Do anyone actually know how the magic system in fire emblem actually work? It seems to be reliant on books, is it at all similar to the Alchemy of Amestris?

[omegaxis1]

11 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Funny enough, that reminds me: a lot of comparisons are made between Three Houses and Code Geass, but if you think about it:

A militaristic and isolationist region surrounded on all sides by hostile nations that are kept at bay through magic, a centuries-old conspiracy about the founding of the region, a group of villains that live underground and consider themselves above humanity, a political leader of incredible physical skill who obtained it from being the victim of a government experiment to create the "ideal leader", which resulted in a change to their physical appearance, and this region notably committed a genocide against an innocent group of people. 

Did I just describe Fodlan, or Amestris from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood?

I actually DID make an FMA comparison. With regards to Ishvalen and Duscur. But Dedue SUCKS. FMA had wonderful characters of Ishval that had purpose. But Dedue? He's there and has NOTHING beyond serving Dimitri. 

And no matter how much people love to praise his love between him and Dimitri, it's just not right for me. 

Dedue should have been a character that really tried to be MORE than how critics mockingly calls, "Dimitri's black friend".

8 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I can definitely see quite a few similarities. Would Edelgard the Fuhrer King Bradley? Or is there another character who was exposed to experiments to create the ideal leader? I don't think the two of them as much in common other than that. 

There is also a character who has done what is basically human transmutation with the intent to revive the dead in Fodlan, Rhea. 

Do anyone actually know how the magic system in fire emblem actually work? It seems to be reliant on books, is it at all similar to the Alchemy of Amestris?

That's a neat comparison. Edelgard is a person that had all the choices ripped out of her, much like Bradley. Bradley also despises the belief in a god, and believes there are none, and Edelgard is quite the atheist after her traumatic experiment, but she DOES believe that the goddess exists, but generally not in a positive way, as to her, the goddess long since had forsaken her. And the experiment was to give her incredible power.

Magic in Fire Emblem is explained by Kaga for the Archanean series, but it doesn't work like it does in Fodlan. 

However, I personally believe that Fodlan's is a more advanced than Archanea's. 

33 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I think the most I found out about them is what Edelgard said in her paralogue. Where she explains that Almyra follow a different religion than the goddess of Fodlan and that is might be the root of the conflict between them. Edelgard seems to be as willing to have a cultural exchange as Claude

It is a bit silly that it wasn't even from Claude and learned that about them. Granted, I don't remember if he mentioned that not, plod seems to worship nature itself, rather than the goddess. So maybe that is what most Almyrans do. It is also fairly clear that wyverns have some kind of cultural importance. To my understanding they are a warrior culture, kind of like vikings.

Well, to be honest Claude, Dedue, and Petra DO go over how their religion works in supports. And it makes sense that each side has their own form of religion. 

[vanguard333]

40 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I can definitely see quite a few similarities. Would Edelgard the Fuhrer King Bradley? Or is there another character who was exposed to experiments to create the ideal leader? I don't think the two of them as much in common other than that. 

There is also a character who has done what is basically human transmutation with the intent to revive the dead in Fodlan, Rhea. 

Yes; Edelgard would be King Bradley in this comparison. The biggest difference would be that Edelgard still retained a conscience after the experiments and strove to change things, while Bradley resigned himself to being a genocidal puppet. 

(Haven't played Silver Snow, but I accidentally learned that spoiler a long time ago) true; very true. I would say that what Rhea was doing has more in common with the Homunculi, since the whole thing about human transmutation was that it doesn't work. Then again, in the 2003 anime, they were one and the same, but let's not talk about that one...

21 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I actually DID make an FMA comparison. With regards to Ishvalen and Duscur. But Dedue SUCKS. FMA had wonderful characters of Ishval that had purpose. But Dedue? He's there and has NOTHING beyond serving Dimitri. 

And no matter how much people love to praise his love between him and Dimitri, it's just not right for me. 

Dedue should have been a character that really tried to be MORE than how critics mockingly calls, "Dimitri's black friend".

Aw, that's a shame. I was hoping that, when I got around to playing Blue Lions, that I would see a side to him that was kind-of like Miles from the Briggs army. 

 

For another comparison, I think it's obvious to anyone who's seen both that Jeralt is Hughes. 😢 (the tears are for Hughes). 

[Jingle Jangle]

48 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Funny enough, that reminds me: a lot of comparisons are made between Three Houses and Code Geass, but if you think about it:

A militaristic and isolationist region surrounded on all sides by hostile nations that are kept at bay through magic, a centuries-old conspiracy about the founding of the region, a group of villains that live underground and consider themselves above humanity, a political leader of incredible physical skill who obtained it from being the victim of a government experiment to create the "ideal leader", which resulted in a change to their physical appearance, and this region notably committed a genocide against an innocent group of people. 

Did I just describe Fodlan, or Amestris from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood?

After watching the roller-coaster of a show I see Edelgard is a more "heroic" version Lelouch. Mainly due to her doesn't use hypnotism people to obtain her goals. Still a bunch of similarities between the two.

• Being nobility with some daddy issues linked to some tragic event in the past.
• A willing to change a flawed world for the better. Motives  are heavily projected from a person close.
• Masked leader of a movement with questionable loyalty to said groups. 
• Varying degrees of capability and intelligence.
• Some point become public enemy number 1 for the purpose of some form of peace can be after their "death".

 

[Blackstarskywalker]

Strongly agree with the opinions and arguments of @ Darkmoon6789 and @ Omegaxis1.

I loved the end of the crimson flower route. To be perfect, I needed a match against Thales. The route is a bit short (when the silver snow route in my opinion had a chapter left over)

[vanguard333]

On 4/18/2020 at 10:49 AM, Blackstarskywalker said:

Strongly agree with the opinions and arguments of @ Darkmoon6789 and @ Omegaxis1.

I loved the end of the crimson flower route. To be perfect, I needed a match against Thales. The route is a bit short (when the silver snow route in my opinion had a chapter left over)

Hey; what about me? I had strong opinions in favour of Edelgard like them?

In all seriousness, I too enjoyed the Crimson Flower route, and I agree that it needed a match against Thales, not just to fill in the number of chapters and because there was a lot of buildup towards an inevitable conflict with TWSITD, but also for thematic reasons:

Edelgard is supposed to be a deconstruction of the classic Red-Clad Emperor Archetype; the Hardin, the Rudolph, the Arvis, etc. She even allies with an evil dark-magic cult to achieve her ambitions, just like Arvis did. However, in one key respect, Arvis is more of a deconstruction than Edelgard is: he thinks he can control the Grimleal until they've served their purpose, he can't, he gets usurped by his dragon-possessed son, and he does a suicide-by-Seliph after realizing that everything he did in the name of his ambitions was all for nothing. In this regard, Edelgard is less of a deconstruction, as she beats all the Slitherers after the end in a massive hand-wave on the part of the writers.

I honestly think Edelgard needed her moment where it all goes wrong; Thales thanks Edelgard for killing Rhea, then proceeds to attempt to assassinate Edelgard; perhaps saying something like, "What did you think I was planning to do once this was all over? Crawl back under a rock?! No; our days underground are over. Thanks to you, the Imperial Family controls all of Fodlan, and thanks to your uncle's image, I am Imperial Family. It will be a new age for humanity, Edelgard, just as you wanted. Only, it'll be an age of (whatever his people call themselves)!" We see people and places get blown to smithereens, and Edelgard is utterly destroyed; wondering if everything she did was for nothing, and getting rid of Rhea and overthrowing the Church of Seiros only made things worse. But, we reach for her hand, we promise her that we'll bring the Slitherers down together; just as we had promised, and the rest of the story is dedicated to stopping the Slitherers' evil plan. The story needed that.

I've heard people say that the only way for the Crimson Flower route to end in a way appropriate for its themes was to end on killing Rhea, but I think that's almost the opposite; omitting the Slitherers' part of the narrative weakens the route thematically. 

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Edelgard is supposed to be a deconstruction of the classic Red-Clad Emperor Archetype; the Hardin, the Rudolph, the Arvis, etc. She even allies with an evil dark-magic cult to achieve her ambitions, just like Arvis did. However, in one key respect, Arvis is more of a deconstruction than Edelgard is: he thinks he can control the Grimleal until they've served their purpose, he can't, he gets usurped by his dragon-possessed son, and he does a suicide-by-Seliph after realizing that everything he did in the name of his ambitions was all for nothing. In this regard, Edelgard is less of a deconstruction, as she beats all the Slitherers after the end in a massive hand-wave on the part of the writers.

Arvis was an idiot, plain and simple. He KNEW that Manfroy wanted the Loptous Empire back, and even there was strong implications that Manfroy had something to do with Deirdre's memory loss, and even seemed to look forward to Arvis having a kid with her. Added with how Kaga stated that Arvis learned of Deirdre being his sister after the Battle of Belhalla, he really should have realized how he was dancing at Manfroy's hand. Even if we go by the case of how Deirdre can already be pregnant, so it was impossible to avoid the birth of Julius, he SHOULD have known to deal with Manfroy and especially keep his children away from him.

Edelgard had the sense to know that she had to ally with them for now, but had every intention of wiping them out after the Church was dealt with. Edelgard was focused on the big picture. 

Also, frankly, the Agarthans are always handwaved at the end, as they are mentioned even in VW's ending of their return. And Hapi was literally made JUST to make it clear that the Agarthans are back and mostly fought off in the ending. So now people prop Blue Lions as great because the Agarthans have been dealt with, when before they tried to pretend that the Agarthans lost all leadership in AM because Thales was killed when he was Arundel.

8 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I honestly think Edelgard needed her moment where it all goes wrong; Thales thanks Edelgard for killing Rhea, then proceeds to attempt to assassinate Edelgard; perhaps saying something like, "What did you think I was planning to do once this was all over? Crawl back under a rock?! No; our days underground are over. Thanks to you, the Imperial Family controls all of Fodlan, and thanks to your uncle's image, I am Imperial Family. It will be a new age for humanity, Edelgard, just as you wanted. Only, it'll be an age of (whatever his people call themselves)!" We see people and places get blown to smithereens, and Edelgard is utterly destroyed; wondering if everything she did was for nothing, and getting rid of Rhea and overthrowing the Church of Seiros only made things worse. But, we reach for her hand, we promise her that we'll bring the Slitherers down together; just as we had promised, and the rest of the story is dedicated to stopping the Slitherers' evil plan. The story needed that.

I've heard people say that the only way for the Crimson Flower route to end in a way appropriate for its themes was to end on killing Rhea, but I think that's almost the opposite; omitting the Slitherers' part of the narrative weakens the route thematically. 

Honestly, assassinating Edelgard isn't smart at all. The Agarthans want control over the Empire, but killing her would just create a power struggle. The Agarthans are too used to being "behind the scenes" that they don't know how to step up in the front. Edelgard was seen as a supreme leader. Thales just killing her wouldn't make the people suddenly say, "Sure, lets worship him now". 

But honestly, I see it as Edelgard outwitting Thales and actually capturing the Shambhala before he could even kamikaze it. Or Thales, because Rhea is already dead, wouldn't try to go kamikaze because Rhea isn't there anymore. 

[vanguard333]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Arvis was an idiot, plain and simple. He KNEW that Manfroy wanted the Loptous Empire back, and even there was strong implications that Manfroy had something to do with Deirdre's memory loss, and even seemed to look forward to Arvis having a kid with her. Added with how Kaga stated that Arvis learned of Deirdre being his sister after the Battle of Belhalla, he really should have realized how he was dancing at Manfroy's hand. Even if we go by the case of how Deirdre can already be pregnant, so it was impossible to avoid the birth of Julius, he SHOULD have known to deal with Manfroy and especially keep his children away from him.

I haven't actually played Genealogy, so I'll have to take your word for it. I'm just saying that, in the respect of there being a part where the characters' goals fall apart and their worldview is shattered, Arvis is more of a deconstruction than Edelgard. 

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, frankly, the Agarthans are always handwaved at the end, as they are mentioned even in VW's ending of their return. And Hapi was literally made JUST to make it clear that the Agarthans are back and mostly fought off in the ending. So now people prop Blue Lions as great because the Agarthans have been dealt with, when before they tried to pretend that the Agarthans lost all leadership in AM because Thales was killed when he was Arundel.

Yes, but it being a flaw in other routes doesn't make it not a flaw. Also, it's still bad that Crimson Flower is the only route where Thales isn't confronted on-screen. 

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Honestly, assassinating Edelgard isn't smart at all. The Agarthans want control over the Empire, but killing her would just create a power struggle. The Agarthans are too used to being "behind the scenes" that they don't know how to step up in the front. Edelgard was seen as a supreme leader. Thales just killing her wouldn't make the people suddenly say, "Sure, lets worship him now". 

But honestly, I see it as Edelgard outwitting Thales and actually capturing the Shambhala before he could even kamikaze it. Or Thales, because Rhea is already dead, wouldn't try to go kamikaze because Rhea isn't there anymore. 

I was just trying to come up with a good way to segue into the conflict against TWSITD that would also work as a moment where everything goes wrong and Edelgard is at one of her lowest points because she has to consider if her extremism was worth it. So, I thought, "Thales is there when the conflict with Rhea goes down. He is pretending to be Edelgard's uncle Arundel. And it would make sense for him to have planned for Edelgard's inevitable betrayal." 

Seriously; I get that he's arrogant, but he's been planning this for years; I don't think he would get to the part where Rhea's finally dead and go "...Now what?" Given how Agarthan-Supremacist he is and how much he talks about sunlight, it would make sense for him to want to use the opportunity to bring all of TWSITD to the surface and have them take over, and what easier way for him to do that then through the Adrestian Empire? Similarly, he knows Edelgard is intent on betraying him when it's all over. How can he not see that, once it's all over, Edelgard's existence only serves as a threat?

[NolanBaumgartner]

What bothers me the most about handwaving the Edelgard vs Agarthan war is that it was foreshadowed throughout Crimson Flower. Hubert openly states his wish to eradicated them - his paralogue showed the tension between the two parties quite explicitly. When Edelgard conquers the Alliance, Thales literally tells Edelgard that his men were busy looting ancient weapons located in the country. Thales punishes the killing of Cornelia by wiping out a large chunk of the Empire's army. Edelgard even tells Thales he won't get his way after the war. 

After all this hype we get... absolutely nothing. The inevitable war becomes a footnote. 

As the shortest route it's pretty clear CF didn't get the attention it needed, with 3-4 chapters missing - that would've been the perfect length to deal with the Agarthans.

[omegaxis1]

39 minutes ago, NolanBaumgartner said:

What bothers me the most about handwaving the Edelgard vs Agarthan war is that it was foreshadowed throughout Crimson Flower. Hubert openly states his wish to eradicated them - his paralogue showed the tension between the two parties quite explicitly. When Edelgard conquers the Alliance, Thales literally tells Edelgard that his men were busy looting ancient weapons located in the country. Thales punishes the killing of Cornelia by wiping out a large chunk of the Empire's army. Edelgard even tells Thales he won't get his way after the war. 

After all this hype we get... absolutely nothing. The inevitable war becomes a footnote. 

As the shortest route it's pretty clear CF didn't get the attention it needed, with 3-4 chapters missing - that would've been the perfect length to deal with the Agarthans.

That's pretty much why I hate how they went about CF. They keep saying, "we'll deal with them", built up this confrontation. Even this battle against the Shambhala and Nemesis even would be fitting for CF even. It's like, GD just takes the best parts of confronting the Agarthans. 

[B.Leu]

... I don't get it.
I thought I would disagree, but I just don't get it.

Edelgard should have tried better, I agree, but, so does everyone else.
No one have the full pie that is "Za Truth", and those that does are bullshitter. If Edelgard have to fail because of that, Dimitri and Claude will too then.
 

On 4/4/2020 at 8:17 PM, eclipse said:

A quick look into our own world is enough.  Imagine what would happen if the president of the USA suddenly declared a fully open border with Mexico!  Almyra/Fodlan relations are worse, too.

To be fair, Mexico doesn't launch regular and direct attacks on the USA for kicks and send their so called prince to "insert great college of I dunno". 😛
...They don't do they ?

Almyran and Claude are a big circus.

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by B.Leu

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

... I don't get it.
I thought I would disagree, but I just don't get it.

Edelgard should have tried better, I agree, but, so does everyone else.
No one have the full pie that is "Za Truth", and those that does are bullshitter. If Edelgard have to fail because of that, Dimitri and Claude will too then.

Pretty much. No one knew the full truth or understood everything. No one was willing to trust others or truly compromise. They believed in their own ideals and saw the other side as wrong. 

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, B.Leu said:

To be fair, Mexico doesn't launch regular and direct attacks on the USA for kicks and send their so called prince to "insert great college of I dunno". 😛

...They don't do they ?

Almyran and Claude are a big circus.

 

Depends on how you spin events and whatnot.  There's plenty of xenophobia to go around~!

[Darkmoon6789]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Pretty much. No one knew the full truth or understood everything. No one was willing to trust others or truly compromise. They believed in their own ideals and saw the other side as wrong. 

Pretty much, I think Dimitri would have been able to negotiate an end to the war. During his negotiation with Edelgard in Azure Moon if he was willing to compromise at all, but apparently he is just as stubborn in his beliefs as Edelgard. I was kind of thinking that maybe promising to disband the nobility and the crest system within Faerghus territory might actually be acceptable to Edelgard. I am not sure what Edelgard could really do to please Dimitri, she won't give up their war without having the crest system addressed. 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Pretty much, I think Dimitri would have been able to negotiate an end to the war. During his negotiation with Edelgard in Azure Moon if he was willing to compromise at all, but apparently he is just as stubborn in his beliefs as Edelgard. I was kind of thinking that maybe promising to disband the nobility and the crest system within Faerghus territory might actually be acceptable to Edelgard. I am not sure what Edelgard could really do to please Dimitri, she won't give up their war without having the crest system addressed. 

Pretty much. It's a bit hypocritical of him, in fact.

Granted, Edelgard did a poor job explaining cause her motivations CANNOT be expressed in his route as opposed to her own route, and Dimitri has to hold the moral high ground in there. But the thing is, he says that "surely" there should have been a peaceful solution, didn't present any, and spends the argument mostly insisting that Edelgard's ideals are wrong, and his way is better cause its the lesson he learned from his friends. 

To be honest, that isn't compromise, that's asking Edelgard to submit. 

This is why I hate that talk in AM so much. It's bad. 

[Darkmoon6789]

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Pretty much. It's a bit hypocritical of him, in fact.

Granted, Edelgard did a poor job explaining cause her motivations CANNOT be expressed in his route as opposed to her own route, and Dimitri has to hold the moral high ground in there. But the thing is, he says that "surely" there should have been a peaceful solution, didn't present any, and spends the argument mostly insisting that Edelgard's ideals are wrong, and his way is better cause its the lesson he learned from his friends. 

To be honest, that isn't compromise, that's asking Edelgard to submit. 

This is why I hate that talk in AM so much. It's bad. 

Granted, given the state Dimitri was in recently, I would say that in trying to talk to Edelgard at all is a massive improvement. 

The thing is that, despite their disagreement. They seem to be on relatively good terms, especially after Dimitri shows the dagger. You know, maybe he should have opened with that move as that might have made Edelgard more susceptible to any kind of compromise he might have suggested. I kind of wonder if Dimitri even knows what Edelgard actually wants to accomplish with the war, I guess it is kind of difficult to offer up a deal that we both can agree to if he doesn't know what she wants to do is to deal with the crest system. So maybe this is a bit of a communication fail on both ends. 

I kind of feel like the both of them give up way too early. If I was present. I would basically be like: "YOU TWO AREN'T FINISHED YET, YOU BARELY EVEN TRIED, SIT THE HELL DOWN AND ACTUALLY EXPLAIN YOURSELVES PROPERLY! You used to be friends. Once upon a time, perhaps more than that. I know neither of you wants anymore death.

Dimitri, I have seen Edelgard mournfully place flowers on the graves of a fallen, she is more than remorseful about this entire war. Edelgard, the Imperial capital is besieged, we are at a distinct disadvantage, this might be our last opportunity to ensure the crest system is destroyed forever and bring a new dawn to Fodlan. 

I would kind of be in favour of an alternate ending to Azure Moon where this negotiation actually succeeds. It would be a good end to Dimitri's character arc to make peace with the woman he previously wanted to kill at any cost. But maybe have a very strict requirement for unlocking this possibility. But I am not sure what that that could possibly be. Maybe it could require having finished Crimson Flower previously. I may be one of those weirdo's actually ship the two of them (seriously neither neither grew up together so they don't even really have a family dynamic, the stepsiblings thing is a complete legal technicality.) But they doesn't necessarily have to get married or have any kind of romantic relationship to still be a duo ruling Fodlan together. I am sure there is historical precedence for a pair of siblings sharing the throne

"

[Blackstarskywalker]

1 hour ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Granted, given the state Dimitri was in recently, I would say that in trying to talk to Edelgard at all is a massive improvement. 

The thing is that, despite their disagreement. They seem to be on relatively good terms, especially after Dimitri shows the dagger. You know, maybe he should have opened with that move as that might have made Edelgard more susceptible to any kind of compromise he might have suggested. I kind of wonder if Dimitri even knows what Edelgard actually wants to accomplish with the war, I guess it is kind of difficult to offer up a deal that we both can agree to if he doesn't know what she wants to do is to deal with the crest system. So maybe this is a bit of a communication fail on both ends. 

I kind of feel like the both of them give up way too early. If I was present. I would basically be like: "YOU TWO AREN'T FINISHED YET, YOU BARELY EVEN TRIED, SIT THE HELL DOWN AND ACTUALLY EXPLAIN YOURSELVES PROPERLY! You used to be friends. Once upon a time, perhaps more than that. I know neither of you wants anymore death.

Dimitri, I have seen Edelgard mournfully place flowers on the graves of a fallen, she is more than remorseful about this entire war. Edelgard, the Imperial capital is besieged, we are at a distinct disadvantage, this might be our last opportunity to ensure the crest system is destroyed forever and bring a new dawn to Fodlan. 

I would kind of be in favour of an alternate ending to Azure Moon where this negotiation actually succeeds. It would be a good end to Dimitri's character arc to make peace with the woman he previously wanted to kill at any cost. But maybe have a very strict requirement for unlocking this possibility. But I am not sure what that that could possibly be. Maybe it could require having finished Crimson Flower previously. I may be one of those weirdo's actually ship the two of them (seriously neither neither grew up together so they don't even really have a family dynamic, the stepsiblings thing is a complete legal technicality.) But they doesn't necessarily have to get married or have any kind of romantic relationship to still be a duo ruling Fodlan together. I am sure there is historical precedence for a pair of siblings sharing the throne

"

Edelgard could live in a world where the crest system and the church of Seiros are still in force ?. I think not, that's why I like her antagonistic part on the silver snow route, she tells Byleth that one of the 2 has to die.

As for the ship with Dimitri, I don't know, I have never liked toxic relationships.😂

[Darkmoon6789]

3 minutes ago, Blackstarskywalker said:

Edelgard could live in a world where the crest system and the church of Seiros are still in force ?. I think not, that's why I like her antagonistic part on the silver snow route, she tells Byleth that one of the 2 has to die.

As for the ship with Dimitri, I don't know, I have never liked toxic relationships.😂

Oh, the dismantlement of the crest system across Fodlan and the disbandment of the church of Seiros in its current form are definitely requirements for any peace treaty to be made with Edelgard. I just think that Dimitri should really think about why he is supporting such a corrupt system and organisation if his primary concern is really the people. Sure, he basically needs to screw over Seteth and the rest of the church. But it should be a small price to pay if his concern is really preventing the loss of life, like he claims. This is why I am saying that if Dimitri is going to have any chance of success in negotiating he needs to be willing to make some concessions. There are certain terms Edelgard will never make any concessions with so the only choice is to fulfil those terms. 

And yes, I do find her death in the cold and the route, especially to be quite noble as she chooses to die in order to minimise the casualties caused by the war. Just another piece of evidence that Edelgard isn't evil

[B.Leu]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Pretty much. No one knew the full truth or understood everything. No one was willing to trust others or truly compromise. They believed in their own ideals and saw the other side as wrong. 

But Rhea apparently have the full edition of the truth, but she is still lying, and thanks to the books in the Abyss, is implied to be heavily biased.
Morality of Three Houses, the truth doesn't matter because you'll never get it. xD

And that's my problem with the video. Everything that BOOFIRE said about Edelgard and her endgoal and her narrow minded views can also be said about the two others. I really don't get the argument that he's is trying to make.

He also misses things, like, the nuke are a limited ressources, the fact that the system of Fodlan is at it's limit, etc etc, but that's just nitpick.

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Depends on how you spin events and whatnot.  There's plenty of xenophobia to go around~!

Huh, maybe the USA should build a wall then. Guarded by pink haired idiots.
...I jest. Taxes and impots are better spend elsewhere. 😛

[Darkmoon6789]

7 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

But Rhea apparently have the full edition of the truth, but she is still lying, and thanks to the books in the Abyss, is implied to be heavily biased.
Morality of Three Houses, the truth doesn't matter because you'll never get it. xD

And that's my problem with the video. Everything that BOOFIRE said about Edelgard and her endgoal and her narrow minded views can also be said about the two others. I really don't get the argument that he's is trying to make.

He also misses things, like, the nuke are a limited ressources, the fact that the system of Fodlan is at it's limit, etc etc, but that's just nitpick.

Huh, maybe the USA should build a wall then. Guarded by pink haired idiots.
...I jest. Taxes and impots are better spend elsewhere. 😛

Some people would do anything to discredit Edelgard as they cannot accept the possibility that sometimes drastic actions might be a necessity.

The way I see it in Crimson Flower do indeed have one of the games best endings, not that any of them are really all that bad, all of them is an improvement of what was before. It is just that because of everything I have seen in the game. I will rate any ending with ends 
the horrible crest system higher than those who doesn't. Meaning that I think the two best endings in the game are Verdant Wind and Crimson flower, which are pretty much tied for the end state. Crimson flower are only just beating out Verdant Wind as it has way less people dying during the war. It is literally the only rout where a guard, the Dimitri and Rhea all die. Crimson flower only have Dimitri and Rhea. Azure Moon actually has the least amount of main characters dead, with only Edelgard, but it also doesn't fix the problems with Fodlan to the same extent as the other two. Can't really comment on silver snow, as I haven't played that route yet. 

[omegaxis1]

8 hours ago, B.Leu said:

But Rhea apparently have the full edition of the truth, but she is still lying, and thanks to the books in the Abyss, is implied to be heavily biased.
Morality of Three Houses, the truth doesn't matter because you'll never get it. xD

And that's my problem with the video. Everything that BOOFIRE said about Edelgard and her endgoal and her narrow minded views can also be said about the two others. I really don't get the argument that he's is trying to make.

He also misses things, like, the nuke are a limited ressources, the fact that the system of Fodlan is at it's limit, etc etc, but that's just nitpick.

 

7 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Some people would do anything to discredit Edelgard as they cannot accept the possibility that sometimes drastic actions might be a necessity.

The way I see it in Crimson Flower do indeed have one of the games best endings, not that any of them are really all that bad, all of them is an improvement of what was before. It is just that because of everything I have seen in the game. I will rate any ending with ends 
the horrible crest system higher than those who doesn't. Meaning that I think the two best endings in the game are Verdant Wind and Crimson flower, which are pretty much tied for the end state. Crimson flower are only just beating out Verdant Wind as it has way less people dying during the war. It is literally the only rout where a guard, the Dimitri and Rhea all die. Crimson flower only have Dimitri and Rhea. Azure Moon actually has the least amount of main characters dead, with only Edelgard, but it also doesn't fix the problems with Fodlan to the same extent as the other two. Can't really comment on silver snow, as I haven't played that route yet. 

The funny thing is, if you were to change it so that Edelgard's experiments to be someone that was meant to be a failed vessel of Sothis, meaning that Edelgard suffered at Rhea's hands, then people would feel her war is a LOT more justified. 

Cause I think people actually don't understand the difference between revenge and justice.

[vanguard333]

10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Pretty much. It's a bit hypocritical of him, in fact.

Granted, Edelgard did a poor job explaining cause her motivations CANNOT be expressed in his route as opposed to her own route, and Dimitri has to hold the moral high ground in there. But the thing is, he says that "surely" there should have been a peaceful solution, didn't present any, and spends the argument mostly insisting that Edelgard's ideals are wrong, and his way is better cause its the lesson he learned from his friends. 

To be honest, that isn't compromise, that's asking Edelgard to submit. 

This is why I hate that talk in AM so much. It's bad. 

I haven't played AM, but pretty much every bit of talk between Dimitri and Edelgard is stupid. Have you seen Edelgard's unique boss conversation with Dimitri in Crimson Flower? Why couldn't the writers provide even 1 conversation between them that doesn't make at least one of them seem like an idiot?