Paper Mario returns

[Anacybele]

42 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I've never played a Paper Mario game, but I've heard some things about the series and I've seen the trailers for the new game. I was wondering: why is there such a heavy emphasis on papercraft? I thought that was a Yoshi thing. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the aesthetic of the first two Paper Mario games "paper" in the sense of a storybook, rather than papercraft?

The series took a...different turn after Super Paper Mario, the third game. I never played the first Paper Mario game on N64, but I know that that game, the second game, and Super Paper Mario did indeed have more of a storybook thing going on like you say. But after that, the direction changed, seemingly because Miyamoto, Mario's creator, stepped in and said things should be different because the way things were, it wasn't "needed" or something like that. He forced IS to change the direction. So now it seems more focus is being put on paper-related gimmicks and stuff (which honestly isn't a bad thing to me, I just don't think the rest of the series's change in direction was necessary).

I didn't play Sticker Star because I heard so many bad things about it. IS seemed to try to rectify the problems with Color Splash which I did enjoy a lot. But I still miss the story quality that The Thousand-Year Door and Super Paper Mario had. Mario doesn't usually have a deep story (which is probably why Miyamoto made them stop doing that kind of thing, Mario's always relied more on its gameplay and stuff), so the stories and unique characters in these games were fresh and welcome and beloved by many of the series fans. TTYD also has some gameplay mechanics that no longer appear in the series that people enjoyed, though those didn't make much of a difference to me.

So to see these aspects pretty much get canned because Miyamoto's living too much in the past or something...yeah, it's pretty disappointing. Why change or get rid of something that was working so well? I love Color Splash and The Origami King looks really good, but without the story and character depth TTYD and SPM had...I don't think they can be as good at all. The gameplay looks fine to me though.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Anacybele

[vanguard333]

15 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

The series took a...different turn after Super Paper Mario, the third game. I never played the first Paper Mario game on N64, but I know that that game, the second game, and Super Paper Mario did indeed have more of a storybook thing going on like you say. But after that, the direction changed, seemingly because Miyamoto, Mario's creator, stepped in and said things should be different because the way things were, it wasn't "needed" or something like that. He forced IS to change the direction. So now it seems more focus is being put on paper-related gimmicks and stuff (which honestly isn't a bad thing to me, I just don't think the rest of the series' change in direction was necessary).

I didn't play Sticker Star because I heard so many bad things about it. IS seemed to try to rectify the problems with Color Splash which I did enjoy a lot. But I still miss the story quality that The Thousand-Year Door and Super Paper Mario had. Mario doesn't usually have a deep story (which is probably why Miyamoto made them stop doing that kind of thing, Mario's always relied more on its gameplay and stuff), so the stories and unique characters in these games were fresh and welcome and beloved by many of the series fans. TTYD also has some gameplay mechanics that no longer appear in the series that people enjoyed, though those didn't make much of a difference to me.

So to see these aspects pretty much get canned because Miyamoto's living too much in the past or something...yeah, it's pretty disappointing. Why change or get rid of something that was working so well? I love Color Splash and The Origami King looks really good, but without the story and character depth TTYD and SPM had...I don't think they can be as good at all. The gameplay looks fine to me though.

Thanks for the info. Yeah; it is sad to hear about what's been happening to this series. 

I heard from a video that, while Miyamoto made some suggestions, it was ultimately the producer of the last three games: Kensuke Tanabe, who made a lot of those decisions. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by vanguard333

[Anacybele]

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks for the info. Yeah; it is sad to hear about what's been happening to this series. 

I heard from a video that, while Miyamoto made some suggestions, it was ultimately the producer of the last three games: Kensuke Tanabe, who made a lot of those decisions. 

I see. At the very least, it has looked like IS has tried to find a fine balance between what Paper Mario is now and what the fans desire, so that's something.

[vanguard333]

14 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I see. At the very least, it has looked like IS has tried to find a fine balance between what Paper Mario is now and what the fans desire, so that's something.

I suppose, though wouldn't it make more sense to go back to the series' roots? Or, at the very least, why not release a remake of the original or TTYD, see how well it does, and then use that to determine what to do with the series?

Or maybe they could do what Fates did and release two games: one like the old games, one like the new games, and then a DLC that takes the worst of the old and the new?

[Gregster101]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I suppose, though wouldn't it make more sense to go back to the series' roots? Or, at the very least, why not release a remake of the original or TTYD, see how well it does, and then use that to determine what to do with the series?

Or maybe they could do what Fates did and release two games: one like the old games, one like the new games, and then a DLC that takes the worst of the old and the new?

Shitting on Rev somehow always results in the best comments around here

Anyway, I do agree that it would be nice to see them remake the original or TTYD and use that as a way to see if it's what people really want.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I suppose, though wouldn't it make more sense to go back to the series' roots? Or, at the very least, why not release a remake of the original or TTYD, see how well it does, and then use that to determine what to do with the series?

I agree, it would. But it doesn't seem like they want to do that, unfortunately.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Or maybe they could do what Fates did and release two games: one like the old games, one like the new games, and then a DLC that takes the worst of the old and the new?

Oh god no. Given that Paper Mario is made by the same developer, I do NOT want this.

[vanguard333]

6 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

Shitting on Rev somehow always results in the best comments around here

Anyway, I do agree that it would be nice to see them remake the original or TTYD and use that as a way to see if it's what people really want.

Thanks; I'm glad you enjoyed that joke. 

As someone who has never played the original or TTYD, I think a remake could be cool. 

 

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I agree, it would. But it doesn't seem like they want to do that, unfortunately.

I see. In that case, another idea I had was that they could make something like Paper Zelda or Paper Emblem: take what the first two Paper Mario games did, but with The Legend of Zelda or Fire Emblem (probably Zelda). That way, fans of the new Paper Mario games still get the new stuff, and fans of the old stuff can at least get a repackaged version that has what they liked about the originals, just applied to a different series. 

I should probably say right now that the "Paper Zelda" idea is not original; I got it from watching this video someone made as an April Fool's joke:

Quote

 

 

9 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Oh god no. Given that Paper Mario is made by the same developer, I do NOT want this.

🤣 Yeah; I don't think it's a good idea either; I threw it in as a joke.

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. In that case, another idea I had was that they could make something like Paper Zelda or Paper Emblem: take what the first two Paper Mario games did, but with The Legend of Zelda or Fire Emblem (probably Zelda). That way, fans of the new Paper Mario games still get the new stuff, and fans of the old stuff can at least get a repackaged version that has what they liked about the originals, just applied to a different series. 

I should probably say right now that the "Paper Zelda" idea is not original; I got it from watching this video someone made as an April Fool's joke:

Oh, I've seen people suggest Paper Zelda before and I think it could be a neat idea! Not sure about Paper Fire Emblem though.

[vanguard333]

Just now, Anacybele said:

Oh, I've seen people suggest Paper Zelda before and I think it could be a neat idea! Not sure about Paper Fire Emblem though.

I was only suggesting Paper Emblem because it's IS; I honestly think a Paper Zelda would be far better.

[Anacybele]

4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I was only suggesting Paper Emblem because it's IS; I honestly think a Paper Zelda would be far better.

Yeah, true. And agreed.

[vanguard333]

15 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, true. And agreed.

Thanks. Yeah; Paper Zelda would be cool.

Edited July 15, 2020 by vanguard333

[The Roger The Paladin]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks. Yeah; Paper Zelda would be cool; it would almost certainly be better than the last time they put experience points in a Zelda game...

Hyrule Warriors?

[vanguard333]

7 minutes ago, The Roger The Paladin said:

Hyrule Warriors?

I meant Adventure of Link; I had no idea that Hyrule Warriors has exp (I never played it). 

Edited July 15, 2020 by vanguard333

[The Roger The Paladin]

8 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I meant Adventure of Link; I had no idea that Hyrule Warriors has exp (I never played it). 

I know. I just couldn't resist the easy joke by pointing out the spin-off with exp/levels.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

28 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I meant Adventure of Link; I had no idea that Hyrule Warriors has exp (I never played it). 

Breath of the Wild has exp, it's just hidden from the player

[Anacybele]

Well, Hyrule Warriors is great! I definitely recommend it if you like Zelda and/or hack and slash type stuff.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

Well, Hyrule Warriors is great! I definitely recommend it if you like Zelda and/or hack and slash type stuff.

I like Zelda, though I'm not a fan of hack & slash. 

Anyway, we should probably go back to talking about Paper Mario. 

[Anacybele]

7 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I like Zelda, though I'm not a fan of hack & slash. 

Anyway, we should probably go back to talking about Paper Mario. 

True, yeah.

I can't wait to get the game, I've been waiting for more Paper Mario since I finished Color Splash and the Switch came out. I haven't pre-ordered it though, because I was actually supposed to be busy on Friday when it would release. Plans changed though, so I'm going to see if I can get it Friday.

[Etrurian emperor]

Really interesting interview came to light. Apparently the philosophy behind the new games isn't entirely to blame for the lack of original characters. Its not that they are merely unwilling to make such characters but that they are also unable to. Some sort of restriction on creating characters does seem to be in place. A character like the Origami king is acceptable but a Boo with a mustache and monocle doesn't seem to be. That explains a lot. 

 

[null]

Just now, Etrurian emperor said:

Really interesting interview came to light. Apparently the philosophy behind the new games isn't entirely to blame for the lack of original characters. Its not that they are merely unwilling to make such characters but that they are also unable to. Some sort of restriction on creating characters does seem to be in place. A character like the Origami king is acceptable but a Boo with a mustache and monocle doesn't seem to be. That explains a lot. 

That honestly doesn't surprise me. Shiggy was the one who stripped Sticker Star down to the barebones paper platformer it was.

https://kotaku.com/miyamoto-convinced-the-people-behind-paper-mario-stick-5964444

Color Splash was better, but it was still missing that something that gave the originals so much charm.

[Anacybele]

7 hours ago, twilitfalchion said:

That honestly doesn't surprise me. Shiggy was the one who stripped Sticker Star down to the barebones paper platformer it was.

https://kotaku.com/miyamoto-convinced-the-people-behind-paper-mario-stick-5964444

Color Splash was better, but it was still missing that something that gave the originals so much charm.

...Wait.

Less than ONE PERCENT of these PM fans thought SPM's story was interesting?

How...

How is that possible? This game's story was a fucking masterpiece! At least that's what I thought. It's the biggest reason that made me love the game. The gameplay was good too, but the story kept drawing me back to it and kept me wanting to see the end of it. It did take me some time to actually finish the game, since it got pretty challenging (imo) at the end, but still...

And I've also heard nothing but praise for the stories of pre-Sticker Star Paper Mario games in general. Particularly TTYD. So I have a very hard time believing that few people actually liked the stories of the first three Paper Mario games.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

...Wait.

Less than ONE PERCENT of these PM fans thought SPM's story was interesting?

How...

How is that possible? This game's story was a fucking masterpiece! At least that's what I thought. It's the biggest reason that made me love the game. The gameplay was good too, but the story kept drawing me back to it and kept me wanting to see the end of it. It did take me some time to actually finish the game, since it got pretty challenging (imo) at the end, but still...

And I've also heard nothing but praise for the stories of pre-Sticker Star Paper Mario games in general. Particularly TTYD. So I have a very hard time believing that few people actually liked the stories of the first three Paper Mario games.

Pretty much no one I've seen talk about this thinks that the survey Nintendo did was any good for the very reasons you're mentioning. My best guess would be that the survey was done through some magazine, so most people who filled it in hadn't even played Super Paper Mario. I've seen that a number of times: people reference surveys that were put in magazines, only for it to be revealed that most of the people who filled it in didn't even consume the piece of media in question. 

 

8 hours ago, twilitfalchion said:

That honestly doesn't surprise me. Shiggy was the one who stripped Sticker Star down to the barebones paper platformer it was.

https://kotaku.com/miyamoto-convinced-the-people-behind-paper-mario-stick-5964444

Color Splash was better, but it was still missing that something that gave the originals so much charm.

Eh; he only said not to do any new characters. From everything I've seen, Tanabe is responsible for the removal of story and RPG elements, the shift from storybook to papercraft, the emphasis on paper gimmicks, etc. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by vanguard333

[Anacybele]

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Pretty much no one I've seen talk about this thinks that the survey Nintendo did was any good. My best guess would be that the survey was done through some magazine, so most people who filled it in hadn't even played Super Paper Mario. I've seen that a number of times: people reference surveys that were put in magazines, only for it to be revealed that most of the people who filled it in didn't even consume the piece of media in question. 

Huh, that's weird then... They really ought to do more accurate surveys, it sounds like.

[vanguard333]

10 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Huh, that's weird then... They really ought to do more accurate surveys, it sounds like.

Well, as I said, it was just speculation on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason for the obvious discrepancy, given that the story was one of the most widely celebrated aspects of Super Paper Mario.

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Well, as I said, it was just speculation on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason for the obvious discrepancy, given that the story was one of the most widely celebrated aspects of Super Paper Mario.

I see. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised either then. My only major criticism of Paper Mario now is that I wish it had stories of such quality again.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Anacybele