What are your thoughts on Byleth?

[vanguard333]

16 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Thanks! That's kind of a more refined version of what I was trying to say. Byleth is less customizable gameplay wise (and hence, less of a "my unit"), but more controllable narratively (so more of a "player character"), in comparison to Corrin and Robin. Still, I actually think earlier Avatars had a more defined personality than Byleth (whose dialogue you can choose, thus impacting his interactions with others). I appreciate that they were willing to experiment with controllable dialogue choices, but I'm not sure it should come back - even if it gives the player more options, it undermines the main character having a defined, independent personality. 

You're welcome. 

True, but that's the reason I tried to split personality and dialogue when discussing them. As I pointed out with Geralt, a character can have a fixed personality and variable dialogue options. I do think that Byleth having variable dialogue does not make them less fixed in personality; all the dialogue that I've seen (I've only done two routes so far) fits the established personality of a quiet, socially-awkward stoic teacher who gets better understanding of their emotions thanks to their time spent teaching. 

Interesting; I think that variable dialogue could work, but only if the next FE game keeps "main character/protagonist" and "avatar" completely separate, and the variable dialogue is combined with a truly custom character. What I'm hoping for is something like Rook from Xenoblade Chronicles X: Elma is the protagonist, and the story follows her, but Rook is the viewpoint character for the player, and Rook very much is custom: custom design, custom gameplay, custom dialogue, etc. 

[Crysta]

On 6/17/2020 at 6:54 AM, Nickdos said:

Yes, Byleth has both a personality and plenty of opportunities to pick choices that aren't "the same".

somehow i knew you were going to give a cop-out answer but i didn't think it'd be this bad

you didn't even bother to list the obvious choices: the houses at the beginning of the game and the black eagle route split

don't tell me i'm wrong unless you're prepared to show me how

edit: byleth's established personality is essentially not having one to the point where it bothers the people around him

socially awkward people have reactions

it gets... slightly better after the time skip? there's a slow zoom in on hurt puppy byleth in AM and two of the VW cutscenes have smiles, but there's not enough there for me to consider it a full-fledged, in-game character arc

Edited June 19, 2020 by Crysta

[Plegian Spy]

Honestly, I'm not mad about it. Playing Pokemon soo much has made this type of "soulless protagonist" not a big deal. However, I can see why people are mad about it. Even with the story giving its "reasons" for why Byleth is how he/she is, it still comes off as Intelligent Systems trying a new mechanic that they'll eventually perfect. 

I'm all on board for Intelligent Systems to remove the character customization option for the sake of cutscenes, but I hope that they can balance out having a choice and personality.

[Crysta]

Bioware probably gets the closest to "perfecting" a self-insert character system, tbh. I'm not sure you can perfect it to everyone's specifications.

The Warden in DA:O is even more of a wide-eyed goldfish than Byleth is (I can't remember if they actually blink lol?), but you can customize their appearance and you usually have more than two dialogue options -- sometimes even with consequences.

Hawke in DA2 has the appearance customization and a voice, but you're limited to a human and your personality is either Bleeding Heart Paladin, Snarky Sociopath, or Blunt Asshole. It did have a unique system where it actually tracked your choices and made sure the dialogue was consistent with the type of Hawke you went with, though, which I can sort of appreciate.

The Inquisitor in DA:I is pretty much an attempt to combine the good parts of both of the former self-insert protags.

Is FE anywhere close to that? lolno. But I think the general hollowness in SS compared to the other routes, especially considering two of the three of them don't even deviate much from each other in terms of plot structure, underlines just why players may respond better to Robin than Byleth even if the latter is a better canvas to project your own personality traits and desires onto due to... not being much of a character on his own at all.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Crysta

[Slyfox]

I'd say Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, or both Pillars of Eternity games handle "avatars" way better than Bioware does (and Bioware does a good job nonetheless!). Honestly, much of what Obsidian Entertainment touches has stellar writing, and their games are typically let you choose actions and especially dialogue to a great degree. This is the sort of thing that Fire Emblem needs.

So far, I still don't consider any of the current Fire Emblem "avatars" to be actual avatars. They are all characters with their own personalities and story beats that you can't change. Even Byleth mostly says the same stuff when given the option to choose. Not to mention, since Byleth already has a set personality, the lack of voiced dialogue really hurts Byleth's character.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Slyfox

[Crysta]

Eh, I don't really agree, but I haven't played those games extensively. Just wasn't super impressed with what I did play.

[Plegian Spy]

1 hour ago, Slyfox said:

I'd say Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, or both Pillars of Eternity games handle "avatars" way better than Bioware does (and Bioware does a good job nonetheless!). Honestly, much of what Obsidian Entertainment touches has stellar writing, and their games are typically let you choose actions and especially dialogue to a great degree. This is the sort of thing that Fire Emblem needs.

So far, I still don't consider any of the current Fire Emblem "avatars" to be actual avatars. They are all characters with their own personalities and story beats that you can't change. Even Byleth mostly says the same stuff when given the option to choose. Not to mention, since Byleth already has a set personality, the lack of voiced dialogue really hurts Byleth's character.

True, even with Byleth's soulless exterior he does have a semblance of a personality. The game does show scenes of him actually looking happy, sad and angry. If you ask me, the reason that people classify Byleth as a soulless persona (including me, lol) is because of his face in the main art and in most of the game being so "neutral".

I specify him, because female Byleth's face looks less dead than his.  

Edited June 19, 2020 by Plegian Spy
Grammar

[Slyfox]

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Eh, I don't really agree, but I haven't played those games extensively. Just wasn't super impressed with what I did play.

Let's put it this way.

Bioware games are usually more fun, in terms of game play. Obsidian has better writing, usually.

 

 

And yes, female Byleth's face is incredibly jarring when you think she is supposed to be soulless.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Slyfox

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

Honestly, if they put more budget into the game engine, they could have the cuscenes remdered ingame like most other games. That would do away with the customizability issues.

[SRPG Tryhard]

On 6/18/2020 at 3:13 PM, whase said:

I mean yes, there are plenty of dialogue choices that are very different or even opposite picks, the sad thing is that it always leads to the same conclusion, only thing that changes is whether you get the support point or not.

It's almost like this is a Strategy game yeah. If it isn't up your alley you should try a different series.

And people are already talking about WRPGs an completely different kind of games. Too bad this is a Fire Emblem game I suppose.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Nickdos

[Crysta]

... Strategy games literally revolve around variable choices. That’s where the strategy comes in. Having a mostly linear story with little true variation is not an inherent trait in that genre.

And that is what it is.

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

9 minutes ago, Crysta said:

... Strategy games literally revolve around variable choices. That’s where the strategy comes in. Having a mostly linear story with little true variation is not an inherent trait in that genre.

Um, have you played anything before Fates? Every single FE game before that has extremely liniar storylines with the only variation being which characters die and who you recruite. Regardless of what you do, Garnef always dies, Grima is always defeated ECT. While the side parts of the story, supports and the like, do change, the stories are always almost entirely linear.

[Crysta]

57 minutes ago, Sir Gerwald of Vallora said:

Um, have you played anything before Fates? Every single FE game before that has extremely liniar storylines with the only variation being which characters die and who you recruite. Regardless of what you do, Garnef always dies, Grima is always defeated ECT. While the side parts of the story, supports and the like, do change, the stories are always almost entirely linear.

Yes. Believe it or not, Fire Emblem isn't the only strategy game out there!

EDIT: 'Tactial RPG' is what Fire Emblem actually falls into, and it usually is very linear. A lot of modern 'Strategy' games avoid the linear plotline by not having much of a plotline defined at all in the first place.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Crysta

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Yes. Believe it or not, Fire Emblem isn't the only strategy game out there!

EDIT: 'Tactial RPG' is what Fire Emblem actually falls into, and it usually is very linear. A lot of modern 'Strategy' games avoid the linear plotline by not having much of a plotline defined at all in the first place.

This is a discussion about Fire Emblem. Linear storylines has been the way things were done until Fates. There's nothing wrong with aa story not having branching paths a drastic decisions. It's worked for the franchise for nearly twenty years.

As an aside, sorry if I sounded patronizing. That wasn't the intent. I've had a very long day.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Sir Gerwald of Vallora

[Crysta]

1 hour ago, Sir Gerwald of Vallora said:

This is a discussion about Fire Emblem. Linear storylines has been the way things were done until Fates. There's nothing wrong with aa story not having branching paths a drastic decisions. It's worked for the franchise for nearly twenty years.

As an aside, sorry if I sounded patronizing. That wasn't the intent. I've had a very long day.

It'd probably help with understanding why I'm talking about genre/other games if you read the reply I was replying to, instead of reading it in a vacuum and thinking I'm going on an unrelated tangent.

I'm not even criticizing linear storylines. Fire Emblem works fine with them, even if the last couple installments are small attempts to slightly deviate from that formula.

And the fact that they're trying sort of proves that there's nothing stopping tactical RPGs from having non-linear plotlines or meaningful story/dialogue choices  - it just takes a lot more work. Again, not an inherent trait in the genre: game developers just choose not to break the paradigm more often than not, Fire Emblem included.

EDIT: I'll just tl;dr further: I don't think going "yeah what do you expect it's a Fire Emblem game! Play something else!" is a good way to dismiss someone complaining about the lack of true character choices in a game clearly marketed to be a story that has meaningful choices ("PlEaSe CaRvE a PaTh ThAt Is YoUr OwN"). It has one lol.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Crysta

[eclipse]

. . .where did this topic go and why is this even relevant?

[Crysta]

9 minutes ago, eclipse said:

. . .where did this topic go and why is this even relevant?

Sorry, I thought we were talking about the lack of Byleth's meaningful dialogue options. Didn't think pointing out that there's nothing about the genre the game belongs to that prevents him from having them is actually off topic.

 

 

[eclipse]

8 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Sorry, I thought we were talking about the lack of Byleth's meaningful dialogue options. Didn't think pointing out that there's nothing about the genre the game belongs to that prevents him from having them is actually off topic.

 

 

Once you start wandering into "what is a strategy game", that's where it got weird.  Silent protagonist is independent of the game genre IMO.

[Crysta]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

Once you start wandering into "what is a strategy game", that's where it got weird.  Silent protagonist is independent of the game genre IMO.

Okay, tl;dr part II: "It's a Strategy Game/Tactical RPG/Eastern RPG/Fire Emblem game, what do you expect? Play something else if it didn't meet your expectations!" is a silly retort.