Daylight Savings Time: Why Does It Still Exist?

[vanguard333]

It's that time of year again in many countries that spring springs ahead, so we lose an hour of the day, and I have to ask: why?

A common misconception about Daylight Savings is that it helps farmers. It doesn't help farmers; definitive proof that comes from Canada: out of Canada's ten provinces, one province doesn't use daylight savings, and that one is Saskatchewan: the one whose economy is most dependent on farming. Farmers generally want nothing to do with daylight savings, and in fact, many oppose it.

Then there's the idea that it saves energy. I'm sure it did in the past, but energy demands have changed since then. Does it still save energy anymore?

 

Anyway, I just thought this might be something to discuss; what do you think of daylight savings?

[Sunwoo]

Daylight savings still exists because people in general are reticent and resistant to change, even if it benefits them. Or at least our governments are. I am almost certain that my state voted to do away with DST back in 2018 and that it passed ... and yet, we're still doing DST.

Also, this is a fun page to read through. The history section. Apparently there were some people who wanted DST so they could have more time with their hobbies, although it seems part of the reason seems to be because of Germany and WWI. Thanks, WWI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time

[Dark Holy Elf]

Living in northern latitudes I find it quite useful. We get about 16 hours of daylight in the summer, and it would be a waste to use one of them at 4 am... DST lets us have sunlight from around 5 am to 9 pm instead, which line up better with when people are awake. But if we adopted permanent DST the sun would rise at 9 am in December, which means going to work in the dark for many people.

Basically it's useful because of the way we structure our days; it's most important to have daylight for working hours, and second most important to have it for the leisure hours that come after, while we don't want to waste daylight on the time most people are sleeping.

I'm not nearly so convinced of its value if you live significantly closer to the equator though. If your days range from 10 to 14 hours instead of 8 to 16, the savings may well not be worth it, even if I think the hassle of changing is immensely overstated by opponents of DST.

[ciphertul]

16 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Living in northern latitudes I find it quite useful. We get about 16 hours of daylight in the summer, and it would be a waste to use one of them at 4 am... DST lets us have sunlight from around 5 am to 9 pm instead, which line up better with when people are awake. But if we adopted permanent DST the sun would rise at 9 am in December, which means going to work in the dark for many people.

I start work at 6am and no matter when it's never light then. Even with DST the sun is up about 6:30 around here.

 

18 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Basically it's useful because of the way we structure our days; it's most important to have daylight for working hours, and second most important to have it for the leisure hours that come after, while we don't want to waste daylight on the time most people are sleeping.

As someone who used to work 3rd shift for years, it was more uncommon to see daylight during work then not. I was so used to being dark when I started and still dark when I left.

[lenticular]

47 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Living in northern latitudes I find it quite useful. We get about 16 hours of daylight in the summer, and it would be a waste to use one of them at 4 am... DST lets us have sunlight from around 5 am to 9 pm instead, which line up better with when people are awake. But if we adopted permanent DST the sun would rise at 9 am in December, which means going to work in the dark for many people.

Basically it's useful because of the way we structure our days; it's most important to have daylight for working hours, and second most important to have it for the leisure hours that come after, while we don't want to waste daylight on the time most people are sleeping.

I'm not nearly so convinced of its value if you live significantly closer to the equator though. If your days range from 10 to 14 hours instead of 8 to 16, the savings may well not be worth it, even if I think the hassle of changing is immensely overstated by opponents of DST.

Seconding this. Where I am, we have over seventeen hours of daylight at the Summer solstice, but under seven and a half hours at the Winter solstice. During the Summer, I definitely value the extra hour of daylight in the evening, whereas in Winter, I wouldn't want to lose an hour of daylight from the morning.

I'll also add another reason, which is that it often isn't so important whether we use it or not as whether we are doing the same thing as our neighbours. Imagine, for instance, what would happen if New York stopped using DST, but New Jersey and Connecticut both kept it. Or if the Republic of Ireland stopped using DST but Northern Ireland kept it. Business, trade and communication often happens across legislative boundaries, and having unified time makes everything run much more smoothly. If you want to make major changes to how we keep time, you either have to get everyone in your geographic region to agree (which is difficult) or accept a degree of chaos as people adjust to time differences (which is undesirable).

[XRay]

I do not see the need to have DST everywhere, and I think it should be more on a local level than national level. I do not think I have met anyone who really wants it, even when I was living in New York.

[Jotari]

Yes, day light savings time sucks. And it's mostly only a AmericoEuropean thing. The peoples of Asia, Africa, Oceania and South America were wise enough to abolish it (or were never forced to adopt it).

Personally I also would support the abolishment of time zones entirely and introduce a standard global clock. But one step at a time.

10 hours ago, lenticular said:

I'll also add another reason, which is that it often isn't so important whether we use it or not as whether we are doing the same thing as our neighbours. Imagine, for instance, what would happen if New York stopped using DST, but New Jersey and Connecticut both kept it. Or if the Republic of Ireland stopped using DST but Northern Ireland kept it. Business, trade and communication often happens across legislative boundaries, and having unified time makes everything run much more smoothly. If you want to make major changes to how we keep time, you either have to get everyone in your geographic region to agree (which is difficult) or accept a degree of chaos as people adjust to time differences (which is undesirable).

Well obviously the answer there is to abolish it completely everywhere at once. But as to your supposition, different internal parts of Australia both do and don't use daylight savings. So they manage it somehow. BUt of course this is the country that has +45 minute time zones, so they're clearly insane at a fundamental level.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Jotari

[lenticular]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes, day light savings time sucks. And it's mostly only a AmericoEuropean thing. The peoples of Asia, Africa, Oceania and South America were wise enough to abolish it (or were never forced to adopt it).

Not coincidentally, Europe and North America are also the two continents that sit at -- and have the most people living at -- high latitudes, which is where the argument in favour of DST is strongest.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well obviously the answer there is to abolish it completely everywhere at once. But as to your supposition, different internal parts of Australia both do and don't use daylight savings. So they manage it somehow. BUt of course this is the country that has +45 minute time zones, so they're clearly insane at a fundamental level.

The only place in Australia where there's a significant population center around a border between DST and non-DST is the coastal part border between Queensland and New South Wales, near Gold Coast. And, sure enough, it's a sufficiently emotive issue there to have spawned a single-issue political party specifically formed for trying to get DST reintroduced there. So, yeah, they do manage, but not without issues.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Personally I also would support the abolishment of time zones entirely and introduce a standard global clock. But one step at a time.

This sounds like a terrible idea to me. How are you imagining this operating, and what are the benefits that you see to it?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

Not coincidentally, Europe and North America are also the two continents that sit at -- and have the most people living at -- high latitudes, which is where the argument in favour of DST is strongest.

I'd say there's probably more people between Shanghai and Beijing than there are in the US.

Quote

This sounds like a terrible idea to me. How are you imagining this operating, and what are the benefits that you see to it?

Benefits being if I want to video chat someone at 3pm then it's 3pm no matter where in the world. If the football match starts at 5 then it's 5. If I'm living on a space station with no sunrise or no sunset I still ha e a time that everyone I know can relate to. If Fire Emblen Heroes uodates at 4 it updates at 4. I travel a lot internationally and this would literally make my life easier. Negatives include the date changes in the middle of the day and...that's literally it. It's a bit weird that we change dates half way through the work day in some places and nothing else. The world is becoming increasingly global, having a global time is as useful as having a global date.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Jotari

[ciphertul]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I'd say there's probably more people between Shanghai and Beijing than there are in the US.

Benefits being if I want to video chat someone at 3pm then it's 3pm no matter where in the world. If the football match starts at 5 then it's 5. If I'm living on a space station with no sunrise or no sunset I still ha e a time that everyone I know can relate to. If Fire Emblen Heroes uodates at 4 it updates at 4. I travel a lot internationally and this would literally make my life easier. Negatives include the date changes in the middle of the day and...that's literally it. It's a bit weird that we change dates half way through the work day in some places and nothing else. The world is becoming increasingly global, having a global time is as useful as having a global date.

Except you don’t seems to get that while it maybe be noon everywhere that noon would be the middle of the night to a large amount of people.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, ciphertul said:

Except you don’t seems to get that while it maybe be noon everywhere that noon would be the middle of the night to a large amount of people.

No it wouldn't. Noon would always be noon, as would midnight as those are terms connected to the sun, not the clock. 12:00pm will change wether it's day time, morning or evening, but so what? It's not like a day that runs from 7:00am-11:pm is intuitive in any way.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Jotari

[ciphertul]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

No it wouldn't. Noon would always be noon, as would midnight as those are terms connected to the sun, not the clock. 12:00pm will change wether it's day time, morning or evening, but so what? It's not like a day that runs from 7:00am-11:pm is intuitive in any way.

I don’t know how old you are but after spending as much time as you have been alive being told that x o’clock is this time to suddenly have it change would cause problems. As I have stated I get up at 4:30 am, do you know what kinda of loop I would be in if suddenly 4:30am was in the middle of the day? There would be massive shifts in schedules and who even knows what time zone would be used. Not to mention how many of those time zones would loss or gain a full day.

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'd say there's probably more people between Shanghai and Beijing than there are in the US.

 

You misread her comments. She said Europe/North America have the most people living a high latitudes. Beijing-Shanghai spans the 30's... and while there isn't a precise definition for high latitudes, we can assume the definition lenticular is using does not include them (I'd agree). The population of the world above 40 latitude, and especially above 45, is mostly in Europe and North America.

Apparently DST was first implemented in Canada (today I learned), which is generally in the high 40's to mid 50's. This is arguably the latitude which sees the most benefit to DST (and why it's not surprising the two people in this thread speaking in favour of DST are from them).

[Jotari]

52 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

I don’t know how old you are but after spending as much time as you have been alive being told that x o’clock is this time to suddenly have it change would cause problems. As I have stated I get up at 4:30 am, do you know what kinda of loop I would be in if suddenly 4:30am was in the middle of the day? There would be massive shifts in schedules and who even knows what time zone would be used. Not to mention how many of those time zones would loss or gain a full day.

There would be no time zones, that's the point.

10 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

You misread her comments. She said Europe/North America have the most people living a high latitudes. Beijing-Shanghai spans the 30's... and while there isn't a precise definition for high latitudes, we can assume the definition lenticular is using does not include them (I'd agree). The population of the world above 40 latitude, and especially above 45, is mostly in Europe and North America.

Apparently DST was first implemented in Canada (today I learned), which is generally in the high 40's to mid 50's. This is arguably the latitude which sees the most benefit to DST (and why it's not surprising the two people in this thread speaking in favour of DST are from them).

Florida is less than the 30s. The US on the whole is pretty comparable latitudes to China and North Africa. People kind of assume it higher because Europe doesn't seem that cold due to the gulf stream.

[ciphertul]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

There would be no time zones, that's the point.

I’m not trying to argue with you, and your free to feel however you do but for the amount of work and the problems it would cause at the start wouldn’t be worth it to change it. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Florida is less than the 30s. The US on the whole is pretty comparable latitudes to China and North Africa. People kind of assume it higher because Europe doesn't seem that cold due to the gulf stream.

But many of the major population centres of the US, particularly ones that would have been highly populous when DST was implemented - e.g. New York, Boston, Chicago, Detroit - are in the 40's. Of the seven most populous states in 1920, only one did not lie around the 40th parallel or higher. I suspect if Florida had been the industrial/population centre, the US would not have implemented DST, as China and North Africa did not.

[Armchair General]

Considering how I constantly feel like I missed an hour of sleep for the past two days, I kind of hate DST.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, ciphertul said:

I’m not trying to argue with you, and your free to feel however you do but for the amount of work and the problems it would cause at the start wouldn’t be worth it to change it. 

Oh I don't realistically expect global time to become a thing any time soon. I just think it would be better. Maybe if or when space travel and lunar colonies become a thing with a politically united Earth it could be managed, but even then it might not as, sans the discovery of some warphole technology, communication with Mars will always be done at the speed of snail mail.

52 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

But many of the major population centres of the US, particularly ones that would have been highly populous when DST was implemented - e.g. New York, Boston, Chicago, Detroit - are in the 40's. Of the seven most populous states in 1920, only one did not lie around the 40th parallel or higher. I suspect if Florida had been the industrial/population centre, the US would not have implemented DST, as China and North Africa did not.

Even the northern areas are, if I recall correctly, are only on the same level as the Mediterranean which is also where Beijing is located. Not that it even matters as I reject the northern latitudes argument outright anyway. It makes far more sense to me to just adjust work hours twice a year instead of changing literally every clock in the country. Just move the work day's start from 9am to 10am in the winter. That gives you literally  the same result without the double think.

[lenticular]

39 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Florida is less than the 30s. The US on the whole is pretty comparable latitudes to China and North Africa. People kind of assume it higher because Europe doesn't seem that cold due to the gulf stream.

  My point isn't that all of North America is at high latitudes, or that all of North America is at the sort of latitude where DST makes sense. My point is that of all the people who live at high latitudes -- which is to say, of all the people who live in a place where DST makes the most sense -- the majority of them live in either North America or Europe.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Benefits being if I want to video chat someone at 3pm then it's 3pm no matter where in the world. If the football match starts at 5 then it's 5. If I'm living on a space station with no sunrise or no sunset I still ha e a time that everyone I know can relate to. If Fire Emblen Heroes uodates at 4 it updates at 4. I travel a lot internationally and this would literally make my life easier. Negatives include the date changes in the middle of the day and...that's literally it. It's a bit weird that we change dates half way through the work day in some places and nothing else. The world is becoming increasingly global, having a global time is as useful as having a global date.

We do have a global time (UTC). If it was that useful then people would start using it more. That they don't, makes me believe that it isn't all that useful.

I think that keeping some sort of approximation to local time is valuable. As things stand, if I go to a new place, all I need to do is change my clock once. Then I can look at it and instantly know the approximate time of day, since it's more or less the same everywhere. If I see 18:00 then I know it's early evening. No thought required. If there isn't any sort of local time, then I have to remember the structure of the day in my new location every single time I look at a clock.

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It makes far more sense to me to just adjust work hours twice a year instead of changing literally every clock in the country. Just move the work day's start from 9am to 10am in the winter. That gives you literally  the same result without the double think.

Changing clocks twice a year sounds a lot easier to me than having your entire schedule change. You wouldn't have to change your clock, but you would have to change what time your alarm is set for. And any business would have to update any signs that specify their opening hours. Or their website. And also train and bus timetables would change. And then any laws that specify times (eg, laws about noise, drinking, etc.) would have to change. And so on and so forth. Or you could just change your clocks and be done with it.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

  My point isn't that all of North America is at high latitudes, or that all of North America is at the sort of latitude where DST makes sense. My point is that of all the people who live at high latitudes -- which is to say, of all the people who live in a place where DST makes the most sense -- the majority of them live in either North America or Europe.

And my point was that if you count the USA as high latitude, then China, which doesn't have DST (and has a tonne of people living there),  should also be considered high latitude. Discounting both the US and China as high latitude is fair enough though.

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

We do have a global time (UTC). If it was that useful then people would start using it more. That they don't, makes me believe that it isn't all that useful.

That is awful logic. If something isn't done then it's not worth doing. Obviously the worth of doing something is only evident whence it's done. We can't get the world to agree on the same type of plug sockets,  that doesn't mean it wouldn't be objectively better for everyone not making money of plug adaptors of we couldn't. Alternate forms of energy other than fossil fuels exist, but the fact that we don't use them means they're not worth using.  No. They are. Because people have agendas and are resistant to change.

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

I think that keeping some sort of approximation to local time is valuable. As things stand, if I go to a new place, all I need to do is change my clock once. Then I can look at it and instantly know the approximate time of day, since it's more or less the same everywhere. If I see 18:00 then I know it's early evening. No thought required. If there isn't any sort of local time, then I have to remember the structure of the day in my new location every single time I look at a clock.

If everyone used global time the  you wouldn't have to change your clock at all. 18:00 also isn't early evening everywhere, refer back to the different degrees if latitude mentioned earlier.

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

Changing clocks twice a year sounds a lot easier to me than having your entire schedule change. You wouldn't have to change your clock, but you would have to change what time your alarm is set for. And any business would have to update any signs that specify their opening hours. Or their website. And also train and bus timetables would change. And then any laws that specify times (eg, laws about noise, drinking, etc.) would have to change. And so on and so forth. Or you could just change your clocks and be done with it.

If people can change their clocks then they can swap out a pair of signs twice a year. Hell people do that anyway with longer opening hours during summer and the tourist season already for a tonne of front end business.

[Dark Holy Elf]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Even the northern areas are, if I recall correctly, are only on the same level as the Mediterranean which is also where Beijing is located.

What you're missing is that Beijing is the northernmost of China's ten largest cities, at just under 40. I already cited four major American cities above 40. Looking things up, five of the seven largest US cities in 1920 were located north of Beijing (the four I mentioned + Cleveland), a sixth (Philadelphia) being almost equal, and the seventh (St. Louis) being only 1 degree south. While Shanghai is down at 31.

In other words, a much larger proportion of the US's population lives above 40 than China's, and this was more true a century ago. This has an effect on policy decisions.

The northern US is indeed at a similar latitude to the nations of the northern Mediterranean (Spain, southern France, Italy, etc.). ... all of which also adopted DST.

[X-Naut]

Funny you should make this topic...

Sunshine Protection Act approved by senate to make daylight saving permanent (chron.com)

This happened yesterday.

[Jotari]

45 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

Funny you should make this topic...

Sunshine Protection Act approved by senate to make daylight saving permanent (chron.com)

This happened yesterday.

I imagine they are now in this situation.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

Wow, a 100-0 vote, not a thing you see these days...

I'm expecting over here we'll follow suit. We already change the clocks with the US instead than with the rest of the country, so if the US stops, then we'll stop too.

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Wow, a 100-0 vote, not a thing you see these days...

I'm expecting over here we'll follow suit. We already change the clocks with the US instead than with the rest of the country, so if the US stops, then we'll stop too.

For once I actually want Europe to blindly follow the US's lead!