Oh wow, a Radical Dreamers localisation

[Jotari]

https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Games/Nintendo-Switch-download-software/CHRONO-CROSS-THE-RADICAL-DREAMERS-EDITION-2170786.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=chronocrosstheradicaldreamersedition|noe_newsletter_monthly_2022_04_april

So this is something I never thought I'd see. An official translation of Radical Dreamers. The actual second entry of the Chrono series before they took the ideas from it and developed Chrono Cross. If you haven't heard of it that's because it's a text based adventure game/visual novel released on the Sattellaview (that Japan only system that the BS Fire Emblem games hail from). Square remembering that the Chrono series exists in its entirety is a pleasant surprise, but Square remembering Radical Dreamers specifically existing is very welcome indeed. Because it's actually a great game. Well, no, the gameplay is a bit basic and random (I played it on emmulator where I was very happy to have a turbo button), but the writing itself is genuinely great. It manages to be dramatic, creepy, intriguing and downright hilarious. Especially in the non canon bonus endings (which are like 50% of the game). I probably won't play it myself as I've already played it before and in terms of reading I have a lot to get through at the moment, but I would recommend it.

Oh and it also comes with a graphically updated Chrono Cross, but I'm in the Chrono Cross=Bad camp so I care significantly less about that.

[Acacia Sgt]

Wait, you only just found out?

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Square remembering that the Chrono series exists in its entirety is a pleasant surprise, but Square remembering Radical Dreamers specifically existing is very welcome indeed.

You can probably thank Another Eden for that, perhaps.

Also, the irony here is that it was Masato Kato, and not Square, that denied Radical Dreamers for so long (Square wanted to put RD in the PSX port of Trigger, but Kato vetoed it). That's why Cross exists, because he felt he could improve on RD... and judging from the recent Q&A session on the Japanese Twitter... he hasn't changed much on the subject.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Wait, you only just found out?

Yeah, just saw it in a monthly email blast from Nintendo. I suspected it's news that had been around a while given how I was informed (such emails are always about things you can buy immediately).

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Also, the irony here is that it was Masato Kato, and not Square, that denied Radical Dreamers for so long (Square wanted to put RD in the PSX port of Trigger, but Kato vetoed it). That's why Cross exists, because he felt he could improve on RD... and judging from the recent Q&A session on the Japanese Twitter... he hasn't changed much on the subject.

Chrono Cross might have been able to make an improvement on Radical Dreamer's if it didn't take away Radical Dreamer's greatest strength, actually having characters involved with the story.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, just saw it in a monthly email blast from Nintendo. I suspected it's news that had been around a while given how I was informed (such emails are always about things you can buy immediately).

Admittedly, I am part of a Chrono community, so this was Day 1 news for me. I take it you didn't watch the Nintendo Direct that revealed this? Since it was Nintendo that revealed this first. That's where I saw it first.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Admittedly, I am part of a Chrono community, so this was Day 1 news for me. I take it you didn't watch the Nintendo Direct that revealed this? Since it was Nintendo that revealed this first.

Evidently not. Is it a Nintendo exclusive? I'd be a bit surprised if Nintendo alone had their hands on it....(Crono for Smash 6!)

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Jotari said:

Evidently not. Is it a Nintendo exclusive? I'd be a bit surprised if Nintendo alone had their hands on it....(Crono for Smash 6!)

Nope, it's multi-plat.

[Original Alear]

I liked some things about Chrono Cross, tho Xenogears was much better...but I have no interest in playing it again (not to mention I think I still have the PS version of it). But Radical Dreamers might be another story. Glad to hear about this.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Original Johan Liebert said:

I liked some things about Chrono Cross, tho Xenogears was much better...but I have no interest in playing it again (not to mention I think I still have the PS version of it). But Radical Dreamers might be another story. Glad to hear about this.

It does seem like this release of Chrono Cross have some nice quality of life improvements. Specifically turning off enemy encounters. Because, if I remember correctly, enemies don't give exp in this game, right? All levelling up is done purely through beating boss battles. So enemy encounters are a bit pointless (especially when you can basically fully heal yourself after each encounter if you equip a few healing techs, so they don't even play a gameplay function of attrition).

[Dark Holy Elf]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Games/Nintendo-Switch-download-software/CHRONO-CROSS-THE-RADICAL-DREAMERS-EDITION-2170786.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=chronocrosstheradicaldreamersedition|noe_newsletter_monthly_2022_04_april

So this is something I never thought I'd see. An official translation of Radical Dreamers. The actual second entry of the Chrono series before they took the ideas from it and developed Chrono Cross. If you haven't heard of it that's because it's a text based adventure game/visual novel released on the Sattellaview (that Japan only system that the BS Fire Emblem games hail from). Square remembering that the Chrono series exists in its entirety is a pleasant surprise, but Square remembering Radical Dreamers specifically existing is very welcome indeed. Because it's actually a great game. Well, no, the gameplay is a bit basic and random (I played it on emmulator where I was very happy to have a turbo button), but the writing itself is genuinely great. It manages to be dramatic, creepy, intriguing and downright hilarious. Especially in the non canon bonus endings (which are like 50% of the game). I probably won't play it myself as I've already played it before and in terms of reading I have a lot to get through at the moment, but I would recommend it.

Oh and it also comes with a graphically updated Chrono Cross, but I'm in the Chrono Cross=Bad camp so I care significantly less about that.

Neat to hear about this.

Like you I wasn't a fan of CC so I always wrote off any interest in Radical Dreamers, assuming it was more of the same. Just hearing that the game has a cast involved in the story is a big deal, though... no idea why CC thought it was a good idea to star a silent main and a rotating cast of nobodies. Or that 25-second transitions into battles was a good idea.

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

It does seem like this release of Chrono Cross have some nice quality of life improvements. Specifically turning off enemy encounters. Because, if I remember correctly, enemies don't give exp in this game, right? All levelling up is done purely through beating boss battles.

You do want to get into a few scuffles with every character after getting a boss star level. That'll provide more stat gains. It'll taper off to a couple HP if anything after like 3 or 4 fights though, so you're still not encouraged to fight too much. Unless you need money, or intend to make rainbow gear, or are looking to use traps to get some high end elements off of bad guys.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Neat to hear about this.

Like you I wasn't a fan of CC so I always wrote off any interest in Radical Dreamers, assuming it was more of the same. Just hearing that the game has a cast involved in the story is a big deal, though... no idea why CC thought it was a good idea to star a silent main and a rotating cast of nobodies. Or that 25-second transitions into battles was a good idea.

I can only assume they were fans of Fire Emblem...and then just really didn't think true the implications of mashing Fire Emblem and Chrono Trigger together.

[Original Alear]

On 4/3/2022 at 4:54 AM, Jotari said:

It does seem like this release of Chrono Cross have some nice quality of life improvements. Specifically turning off enemy encounters. Because, if I remember correctly, enemies don't give exp in this game, right? All levelling up is done purely through beating boss battles. So enemy encounters are a bit pointless (especially when you can basically fully heal yourself after each encounter if you equip a few healing techs, so they don't even play a gameplay function of attrition).

I believe it's possible to get HP bonuses from fighting random enemies. Can't remember if you can get stats besides HP. You can also "trap" guys into giving you certain elements (basically materia). The level 7 summons in particular need to be trapped from enemies IIRC. Not that the summons are particularly important AFAIK. But ya, encounters were pretty easy to deal with and having them gone is a nice option.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Original Johan Liebert said:

I believe it's possible to get HP bonuses from fighting random enemies. Can't remember if you can get stats besides HP. You can also "trap" guys into giving you certain elements (basically materia). The level 7 summons in particular need to be trapped from enemies IIRC. Not that the summons are particularly important AFAIK. But ya, encounters were pretty easy to deal with and having them gone is a nice option.

I think it's possibly I literally never trapped anything as I barely remember that mechanic in a vague sense.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think it's possibly I literally never trapped anything as I barely remember that mechanic in a vague sense.

You don't have to use the mechanic, I know I never touched it. Neither did I use summons, which meant I never got prism (best quality) equipment either. Since prism components are obtained only from killing enemies with summons of a particular color, so I had read after the fact.

[Acacia Sgt]

10 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

You don't have to use the mechanic, I know I never touched it. Neither did I use summons, which meant I never got prism (best quality) equipment either. Since prism components are obtained only from killing enemies with summons of a particular color, so I had read after the fact.

Not quite. There are in fact two pieces of regular Rainbow equipment you can get instead of forge. So you can disassemble them and create what you want without having to farm materials. Only downside is... well, there's only two obtained on any given playthrough.

Personally for a first playthrough at least I'd reforge them into a needed weapon (between Mastermune and Double Einlanzer, I only needed one for a full party) and a piece of equipment, or a Spectral Swallow for NG+ purposes since Mastermune doesn't transfer over.

[Lord_Brand]

For Yellow, Red, Green, and Blue summons, you can cast a Field element of that color. Black and White for some reason don't get Field elements, so you have to work harder to cast those.

On 4/3/2022 at 8:32 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Neat to hear about this.

Like you I wasn't a fan of CC so I always wrote off any interest in Radical Dreamers, assuming it was more of the same. Just hearing that the game has a cast involved in the story is a big deal, though... no idea why CC thought it was a good idea to star a silent main and a rotating cast of nobodies. Or that 25-second transitions into battles was a good idea.

I think it's a combination of Kato being a self-absorbed "visionary" who put his sociopolitical messages before quality of story and Squaresoft in general being self-absorbed "visionaries" who put their "presentation" before quality of gameplay. Basically two big egos ruining what could have been a great game. As is, I feel like Chrono Cross is half a good game and half a bad game smashed together.

My brother and I have had lengthy conversations about how we'd fix Chrono Cross, or make a better version. A few points in particular came up:

• Trim a lot of the chaff from the roster. How many people actually want to play the likes of Funguy, NeoFio, and Skelly? They're wastes of space that came at the cost of an actually decent storyline.
• Cut the whole BS subplot about environmentalism. The damn dwarves do more damage than the humans do in the story, they have no grounds to be lecturing anybody on environmentalism. (What the heck are yellow-innate miners doing in a green-innate swamp, anyway? Did they get kicked off of Earth Dragon Isle because the dragon couldn't stand them either?)
• Also cut the BS about racism. We see one human mistreat a demihuman in the whole story, and chances are they're just an asshole to people in general. Meanwhile the demihumans throw rocks at your party if a human dares to enter Marbule, the dwarves have already been mentioned, the fairies have the nerve to turn on you after you saved their glittery behinds from the aforementioned dwarves...if anything, the demihumans are bigger racists than the humans in this story.
• Kid reeks of Bad Fan Character Syndrome. An Aussie accent right out of nowhere, being shoehorned in as the love interest when the hero already has a girlfriend, showing up to talk a big game only to get poisoned and then put into a coma later...she reads like a laundry list of Jimmy's First OC cliches.
• We have a blue-haired woman of high bearing with a special pendant...and she's not the one with a connection to Schala!? I don't know if Kato or Square thought they were being clever by subverting expectations or whatever, but the alternative really wasn't enough to make up for the obvious missed opportunity here.
• The endings are major disappointments, to say the least. Even the "best" ending, which is actually the most minimalistic and resolves basically nothing on-screen.

Here are some of the changes I've proposed:

• Have Serge turn out to be the lovechild of Magus and Serge's mother. The blue hair already provides one possible connection, and if Schala has to be involved the way she is, then having Magus' son be involved with helping her would actually be quite fitting.
• Likewise, have Riddel be the one connected to Schala. Perhaps she's Viper's adopted daughter.
• Kid if anything should be Crono and Marle's daughter, hidden away from Porre for her safety. If you want to play up romance between her and Serge, make her one of his childhood friends alongside Leena. She can be the "bad girl" to Leena's "good girl", being more rambunctious and tomboyish in contrast to Leena's "proper lady".
• Include more branching paths in the game. At each of these branches, you get to recruit one of three different party members, each of whom takes the story in a different direction. Each party member you recruit in turn leads you to a new branch in the story where you get to again pick from a pool of three different characters (there could be overlap between different pools to allow some narratives to interweave with one another), up until you have a maximum party of 12 by the end of the game. This allows for each playthrough to be markedly different from the last, and allows for a multitude of different endings that gives the party members some form of closure.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[Acacia Sgt]

For anyone curious, months ago Kato gave input on his thought processes when it came to creating Cross:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=13665.0

For anyone curious.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

For Yellow, Red, Green, and Blue summons, you can cast a Field element of that color. Black and White for some reason don't get Field elements, so you have to work harder to cast those.

I think it's a combination of Kato being a self-absorbed "visionary" who put his sociopolitical messages before quality of story and Squaresoft in general being self-absorbed "visionaries" who put their "presentation" before quality of gameplay. Basically two big egos ruining what could have been a great game. As is, I feel like Chrono Cross is half a good game and half a bad game smashed together.

My brother and I have had lengthy conversations about how we'd fix Chrono Cross, or make a better version. A few points in particular came up:

• Trim a lot of the chaff from the roster. How many people actually want to play the likes of Funguy, NeoFio, and Skelly? They're wastes of space that came at the cost of an actually decent storyline.

I feel a lot of those characters could remain just for the fun aspect of it. The issue isn't really that it's a bloated cast, since it doesn't take much away from the game to develop a new filler unit. The real issue is that the game doesn't have any relevent characters, and the character bloat kind of obfuscates who all these people are and what unified goal they're working for (Final Fantasy VI as a comparison has a tonne of playable characters that could easily have been removed, yet they feel natural in the game because there are still actual characters doing something and the threat to the world is clear enough to understand why they're all fighting). Really what it needs is some good old fashioned Fire Emblem forced deployment. Make it so there are actual characters involved and brought to certain scenes that actually care about what is going on, and just scenes with the characters actually talking together with each other so it feels like they are people working together and not, essentially, Pokemon that you collect (the most egregious example of this being when Serge gets his human form back all the party members you previously lost just pop back in your inventory with absolutely no explanation)

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

• Cut the whole BS subplot about environmentalism. The damn dwarves do more damage than the humans do in the story, they have no grounds to be lecturing anybody on environmentalism. (What the heck are yellow-innate miners doing in a green-innate swamp, anyway? Did they get kicked off of Earth Dragon Isle because the dragon couldn't stand them either?)
• Also cut the BS about racism. We see one human mistreat a demihuman in the whole story, and chances are they're just an asshole to people in general. Meanwhile the demihumans throw rocks at your party if a human dares to enter Marbule, the dwarves have already been mentioned, the fairies have the nerve to turn on you after you saved their glittery behinds from the aforementioned dwarves...if anything, the demihumans are bigger racists than the humans in this story.
• Kid reeks of Bad Fan Character Syndrome. An Aussie accent right out of nowhere, being shoehorned in as the love interest when the hero already has a girlfriend, showing up to talk a big game only to get poisoned and then put into a coma later...she reads like a laundry list of Jimmy's First OC cliches.
• We have a blue-haired woman of high bearing with a special pendant...and she's not the one with a connection to Schala!? I don't know if Kato or Square thought they were being clever by subverting expectations or whatever, but the alternative really wasn't enough to make up for the obvious missed opportunity here.
• The endings are major disappointments, to say the least. Even the "best" ending, which is actually the most minimalistic and resolves basically nothing on-screen.

Without all that stuff though you don't really have a much of a game. That is what Crono Cross is about, for better or for worse. Remove all that and you're just left with the aesthetic.

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

Here are some of the changes I've proposed:

• Have Serge turn out to be the lovechild of Magus and Serge's mother. The blue hair already provides one possible connection, and if Schala has to be involved the way she is, then having Magus' son be involved with helping her would actually be quite fitting.

I might be projecting a bit, but Magus doesn't seem like the kind of guy to sleep around. He seems almost asexual in how singularly driven he is.

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

• Likewise, have Riddel be the one connected to Schala. Perhaps she's Viper's adopted daughter.
• Kid if anything should be Crono and Marle's daughter, hidden away from Porre for her safety. If you want to play up romance between her and Serge, make her one of his childhood friends alongside Leena. She can be the "bad girl" to Leena's "good girl", being more rambunctious and tomboyish in contrast to Leena's "proper lady".

Just more Chrono stuff in general would be appreciated. I know something shouldn't be judged badly for being different, but really Chrono Cross is so different from Chrono Trigger on a tone, aesthetic and setting it verges on the point of "why are these two stories even in the same continuity". Which is also kind of what they wanted when making it, but if you're using the same title then you're going to be drawing in the same audience. Even stuff like Final Fantasy which has a different continuity each game at least uses similar elements that forge an identity for it. Throw a few more Nu in at the very least.

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

• Include more branching paths in the game. At each of these branches, you get to recruit one of three different party members, each of whom takes the story in a different direction. Each party member you recruit in turn leads you to a new branch in the story where you get to again pick from a pool of three different characters (there could be overlap between different pools to allow some narratives to interweave with one another), up until you have a maximum party of 12 by the end of the game. This allows for each playthrough to be markedly different from the last, and allows for a multitude of different endings that gives the party members some form of closure.

Isn't that kind of how it works already? I know I didn't get "the-guy-who-was-meant-to-be-Magus-but-then-they-never-actually-developed-the-plot-so-he-wasn't-but-then-they-changed-their-mind-in-the-DS-remake-of-Chrono-Cross-and-decided-to-make-him-magus-only-with-amnesia-so-what's-even-the-point?" on my playthough because I chose some other way of getting into the mansion. And you can straight up just leave Kid poisoned and ignore a portion of the game (it's actually hilarious how crappily you can treat Kid in the game yet the story still insists on a love plot).

[Acacia Sgt]

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

 

• We have a blue-haired woman of high bearing with a special pendant...and she's not the one with a connection to Schala!? I don't know if Kato or Square thought they were being clever by subverting expectations or whatever, but the alternative really wasn't enough to make up for the obvious missed opportunity here.

Amusingly Radical Dreamers seemed to toy with this idea, trying to imply or at least speculate, that she may have some connection with the Frozen Flame (though not with Schala).

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

(What the heck are yellow-innate miners doing in a green-innate swamp, anyway? Did they get kicked off of Earth Dragon Isle because the dragon couldn't stand them either?)

Fellow Yellow-innate Beebas also live in Hydra Marshes, just saying. At least by the time we meet them (in Home world at least), they're there protecting the last Hydra.

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

 

• Kid if anything should be Crono and Marle's daughter, hidden away from Porre for her safety. If you want to play up romance between her and Serge, make her one of his childhood friends alongside Leena. She can be the "bad girl" to Leena's "good girl", being more rambunctious and tomboyish in contrast to Leena's "proper lady".

I'm reminded that years ago a prominent if not popular theory was Miguel being Crono, and Leena being the daughter sent to El Nido for her safety.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Lord_Brand]

On 4/5/2022 at 12:21 PM, Jotari said:

I feel a lot of those characters could remain just for the fun aspect of it. The issue isn't really that it's a bloated cast, since it doesn't take much away from the game to develop a new filler unit. The real issue is that the game doesn't have any relevent characters, and the character bloat kind of obfuscates who all these people are and what unified goal they're working for (Final Fantasy VI as a comparison has a tonne of playable characters that could easily have been removed, yet they feel natural in the game because there are still actual characters doing something and the threat to the world is clear enough to understand why they're all fighting). Really what it needs is some good old fashioned Fire Emblem forced deployment. Make it so there are actual characters involved and brought to certain scenes that actually care about what is going on, and just scenes with the characters actually talking together with each other so it feels like they are people working together and not, essentially, Pokemon that you collect (the most egregious example of this being when Serge gets his human form back all the party members you previously lost just pop back in your inventory with absolutely no explanation)

A lot of the character concepts are garbage. Why do we need Turnip? Why do we need a creepy skeleton clown who, mind you, we spend a good portion of the game assembling? Why is a bratty 9-year old a compelling antagonist? Korcha? Mel?

I agree that the game needed more characters who actually mattered to the plot. That's why I would trim a lot of the chaff, push the worthwhile characters left over, and perhaps introduce some new characters who are both more appealing and more important to the story, not to mention fill niches that I felt were missing. I'm not against variety, I just want it done right.

On 4/5/2022 at 12:21 PM, Jotari said:

Without all that stuff though you don't really have a much of a game. That is what Crono Cross is about, for better or for worse. Remove all that and you're just left with the aesthetic.

I'd say the game is about

Spoiler

exploring two alternate timelines, uncovering the conspiracy with Lynx at Viper Manor, Porre conquering the world, you getting your body back (or...reincarnating?), entering Chronopolis, destroying FATE, finding the Frozen Flame, and defeating the Time Devourer.

Considering the shoehorned aesops contribute very little to the plot and in fact detract from it if anything, I'd say you can remove them without doing any damage to the game. The one about fantastic racism in particular is egregious because the kinds of demihumans we see in Cross were nowhere to be seen in Trigger, adding to the feeling of inconsistency. And the majority of the environmentalism comes from blatant hypocrites who go out of their way to commit genocide, whereas at least you were acting to save a life.

On 4/5/2022 at 12:21 PM, Jotari said:

I might be projecting a bit, but Magus doesn't seem like the kind of guy to sleep around. He seems almost asexual in how singularly driven he is.

Considering he also apparently lost his memory according to Trigger DS, it's perfectly possible he wandered as an amnesiac before meeting Serge's mother and was more receptive to relationships. Maybe regaining his memories could have caused him to leave in hopes of protecting his family. That's not what happened in the actual game of course, but it would have made for a better story by giving the protagonist a very direct tie to the previous game's cast, in my opinion.

On 4/5/2022 at 12:21 PM, Jotari said:

Just more Chrono stuff in general would be appreciated. I know something shouldn't be judged badly for being different, but really Chrono Cross is so different from Chrono Trigger on a tone, aesthetic and setting it verges on the point of "why are these two stories even in the same continuity". Which is also kind of what they wanted when making it, but if you're using the same title then you're going to be drawing in the same audience. Even stuff like Final Fantasy which has a different continuity each game at least uses similar elements that forge an identity for it. Throw a few more Nu in at the very least.

Here's an idea: Replace Skelly with Robo. Give us a sidequest of gathering Robo's scattered parts so he can be rebuilt and join the party. Add in all seven of Trigger's playable characters as optional party members, in fact. Make a sidequest out of saving them like they did for Crono in the original game.

And I agree, Cross is so different that it would have fared better as a standalone title. Still would have been a half-good-half-bad game, but at least Trigger wouldn't have been shafted the way it was. Cross going out of its way to give Trigger's cast the middle finger for the sake of drama is just as contemptible as the sociopolitical aesops. Almost like the game knows Trigger fans will hate it and it's choosing to rub that in their faces. "Nya-nya, you bought the game and we have your money, now watch as we unceremoniously kill off those characters you loved!"

Being able to save the heroes of the original and recruit them as allies would feel like a faithful evolution of what Trigger itself presented in the form of sidequests that let you save Crono's life and spare Lucca's mom from losing use of her legs. It would make Cross feel respectful to Trigger rather than like it's trying to overwrite it.

On 4/5/2022 at 12:21 PM, Jotari said:

Isn't that kind of how it works already? I know I didn't get "the-guy-who-was-meant-to-be-Magus-but-then-they-never-actually-developed-the-plot-so-he-wasn't-but-then-they-changed-their-mind-in-the-DS-remake-of-Chrono-Cross-and-decided-to-make-him-magus-only-with-amnesia-so-what's-even-the-point?" on my playthough because I chose some other way of getting into the mansion. And you can straight up just leave Kid poisoned and ignore a portion of the game (it's actually hilarious how crappily you can treat Kid in the game yet the story still insists on a love plot).

The first choice is the only one that's close to what I intend. The second locks you into a specific set of characters, and doesn't really change the overall course of the plot.

Imagine this scenario: You need a vessel to cross the sea. You have one of three possible paths to choose from:

• Build a boat - You meet a carpenter and aspiring sailor who wants to build his own boat but needs materials. He joins your party to help find them in the nearby woods.
• Buy a ship - You recruit Van, who hires a merchant vessel to help you travel the seas. However, the ship is attacked by pirates, forcing you to fight them off.
• Steal a ship - You join Fargo's crew of pirates intent on raiding a ship going out to sea. You capture the ship's crew and leave them in Guldove, then set sail on your merry, plundering way.

Each of these choices takes you down a different path that guides you towards a different set of decisions down the line. Each junction gives you a choice of party members with innates different from what you've recruited so far, in order to ensure the player ends up with representatives of each innate in their party. The choices you make determine the kind of ending you get when you beat the game.

Here's an idea: You know how it's possible to recruit either the Home World or Another World version of Poshul? What if that applied to a lot of the other party members like Leena, Van, and Glenn? What if you could actually recruit both versions of a given character, and even have them perform dual techs together? To help set them apart, each character's Home World and Another World versions are visually distinct, like wearing armor or clothing of different colors or styles, or reflecting their varying backgrounds (such as Another Van wearing old, worn clothes and Home Van wearing new, fancy clothes). Maybe Glenn succeeded Dario as one of the Devas in one world and so wears armor more like Dario's instead of his usual brown armor?

The innates could be different between the versions as well. Maybe Home Leena is red while her Another counterpart is blue, or Home Glenn is white while his Another counterpart is green.

On 4/5/2022 at 1:26 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

Fellow Yellow-innate Beebas also live in Hydra Marshes, just saying. At least by the time we meet them (in Home world at least), they're there protecting the last Hydra.

The innates aren't the issue here. The Beebas look like they belong in a swamp. The dwarves are completely out of place. They're dressed like miners and they have a big steam-powered tank - where the heck did they get those materials? Why are they of all characters the voice of environmentalism in the game? The whole thing is just so stupid and infuriating. Were it up to me, the dwarves would be moved to Earth Dragon Isle where they belong and can be reduced to silent mooks like they deserve, and the sociopolitical BS would be dropped like the trash it is. I don't need aesops being shoved in my face when I'm just trying to enjoy an RPG about casting colorful spells and traveling between worlds.

Spoiler

...You know, I just had a realization: when Serge is reborn through the Dragon Tears in Another World, is he basically reincarnating as what his Another World self would have been had he not died 10 years prior?

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[Acacia Sgt]

10 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

 

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...You know, I just had a realization: when Serge is reborn through the Dragon Tears in Another World, is he basically reincarnating as what his Another World self would have been had he not died 10 years prior?

 

Spoiler

The Dragon Tears involve DNA rewriting, so... no. Even if the split had been something else and there'd be a Serge in Another World, they wouldn't have anything different between them in that sense.

Also, it happened in Home World, not Another. In Another it was the body swap.

 

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

A lot of the character concepts are garbage. Why do we need Turnip? Why do we need a creepy skeleton clown who, mind you, we spend a good portion of the game assembling? Why is a bratty 9-year old a compelling antagonist? Korcha? Mel?

I agree that the game needed more characters who actually mattered to the plot. That's why I would trim a lot of the chaff, push the worthwhile characters left over, and perhaps introduce some new characters who are both more appealing and more important to the story, not to mention fill niches that I felt were missing. I'm not against variety, I just want it done right.

Well that depends, are we talking about potentially remaking a game that already exists or what the game should have been in the first place? Because I agree, a lot of the characters are just woeful, but I'm sure someone likes them and they probably have some purpose in the gameplay (I say some because no way did I experiment with enough characters to find any sort of niche). What I'm really saying is that the cast size as a concept is fine, it's the lack of important core members that gives it trouble.

12 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

I'd say the game is about exploring two alternate timelines, uncovering the conspiracy with Lynx at Viper Manor, Porre conquering the world, you getting your body back (or...reincarnating?), battling FATE, finding the Frozen Flame, and defeating the Time Devourer. Considering the shoehorned aesops contribute very little to the plot and in fact detract from it if anything, I'd say you can remove them without doing any damage to the game. The one about fantastic racism in particular is egregious because the kinds of demihumans we see in Cross were nowhere to be seen in Trigger, adding to the feeling of inconsistency. And the majority of the environmentalism comes from blatant hypocrites who go out of their way to commit genocide, whereas at least you were acting to save a life.

That's the events that happen, but it's not really what the story is about. They're handled in an impecably flawed way but the aesops are what the story was intent on exploring as ideas.

12 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Considering he also apparently lost his memory according to Trigger DS, it's perfectly possible he wandered as an amnesiac before meeting Serge's mother and was more receptive to relationships. Maybe regaining his memories could have caused him to leave in hopes of protecting his family. That's not what happened in the actual game of course, but it would have made for a better story by giving the protagonist a very direct tie to the previous game's cast, in my opinion.

Here's an idea: Replace Skelly with Robo. Give us a sidequest of gathering Robo's scattered parts so he can be rebuilt and join the party. Add in all seven of Trigger's playable characters as optional party members, in fact. Make a sidequest out of saving them like they did for Crono in the original game.

And I agree, Cross is so different that it would have fared better as a standalone title. Still would have been a half-good-half-bad game, but at least Trigger wouldn't have been shafted the way it was. Cross going out of its way to give Trigger's cast the middle finger for the sake of drama is just as contemptible as the sociopolitical aesops. Almost like the game knows Trigger fans will hate it and it's choosing to rub that in their faces. "Nya-nya, you bought the game and we have your money, now watch as we unceremoniously kill off those characters you loved!"

Being able to save the heroes of the original and recruit them as allies would feel like a faithful evolution of what Trigger itself presented in the form of sidequests that let you save Crono's life and spare Lucca's mom from losing use of her legs. It would make Cross feel respectful to Trigger rather than like it's trying to overwrite it.

Yeah, that's the weird thing about the two games. Chrono Trigger is one of the most optimistic stories one can conceive. A bunch of random children witness the fated destruction of the entire world and decide "we're totally going to stop this no matter how much effort it takes" and they succeed without ever wavering, even when their leader is killed. Meanwhile Chrono Cross is a hugely pessimistic story where humans are depicted as complete dicks who almost deserve to be wiped out and the threat from the last game not only wasn't defeated, but now threatens to consume all parallel worlds. The contrast is incredibly striking. Did Kato's wife leave him or something? How did writing so positive become so bleak?

12 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Here's an idea: You know how it's possible to recruit either the Home World or Another World version of Poshul? What if that applied to a lot of the other party members like Leena, Van, and Glenn? What if you could actually recruit both versions of a given character, and even have them perform dual techs together? To help set them apart, each character's Home World and Another World versions are visually distinct, like wearing armor or clothing of different colors or styles, or reflecting their varying backgrounds (such as Another Van wearing old, worn clothes and Home Van wearing new, fancy clothes). Maybe Glenn succeeded Dario as one of the Devas in one world and so wears armor more like Dario's instead of his usual brown armor?

The innates could be different between the versions as well. Maybe Home Leena is red while her Another counterpart is blue, or Home Glenn is white while his Another counterpart is green.

That's another thing, the gimmick of the parallel worlds is kind of muted by the two worlds feeling almost indistinguishable from each other. There's something different about each area but remember what is where is an outright chore. The two worlds are far too similar. To some extent they wrote themselves into a corner by making the time skip occur such a short time ago (it's what like five or six years, right?), so it's logical things would be almost identical, but I still feel something could have been done at the very least with colour palettes or something to give each world a more unified feel.

[Lord_Brand]

On 4/6/2022 at 1:39 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

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The Dragon Tears involve DNA rewriting, so... no. Even if the split had been something else and there'd be a Serge in Another World, they wouldn't have anything different between them in that sense.

Also, it happened in Home World, not Another. In Another it was the body swap.

 

 

Spoiler

Ah, right. I got the reincarnation in Fort Dragonia and the fusion of the Tears into the Chrono Cross mixed up. Never mind then.

 

On 4/6/2022 at 1:49 PM, Jotari said:

Well that depends, are we talking about potentially remaking a game that already exists or what the game should have been in the first place? Because I agree, a lot of the characters are just woeful, but I'm sure someone likes them and they probably have some purpose in the gameplay (I say some because no way did I experiment with enough characters to find any sort of niche). What I'm really saying is that the cast size as a concept is fine, it's the lack of important core members that gives it trouble.

Kinda both? If I could rework the game into what I think it should have been, I'd overhaul a good majority of the playable roster and bring in a lot of new characters who actually matter to the story because you recruit them as part of following their story paths.

See, how I'd handle the large number of characters is by making it so you only recruit a handful during a given playthrough. The ideal maximum would be around two party members per innate, adding up to 12 by the end of the game. Of course some characters could appear on more than one path, helping keep the number under control.

The benefit of this approach is that you don't have to write scenes around every playable character; each character is allowed to have unique dialogue because they're the only character who will speak that dialogue. This in turn allows you to develop that character within the stories where they're relevant while leaving them with a minimal presence in the rest.

Furthermore, some characters can become either friend or foe depending on the choices you make. Fargo the pirate for example could join your party if you join his crew in seizing a ship, or you help the ship's crew fight Fargo's pirates, thereby making him your adversary instead. Or you could choose to side with Porre instead of the Acacia Dragoons, prompting a Porre soldier such as Norris to join your party while turning the Dragoons, including Devas like Karsh and Zoah, against you.

In general, I'd opt for three choices per story junction. Some if not all of those junctions would involve an event that two of those choices revolve around (like the example with the merchant ship and the pirates) while the third path veers away from the event altogether (the carpenter making a boat). The story events play out with or without your involvement, with three possible outcomes depending on your choice.

On 4/6/2022 at 1:49 PM, Jotari said:

That's the events that happen, but it's not really what the story is about. They're handled in an impecably flawed way but the aesops are what the story was intent on exploring as ideas.

If environmentalism and race dynamics were supposed to be the focus, then Kato expressed that in rather poor fashion with hypocrites and informed flaws (on the humans' part). I hope one can pardon me if I prefer the plot elements that actually matter and tie in to the game Cross is supposed to be a sequel to.

On 4/6/2022 at 1:49 PM, Jotari said:

Yeah, that's the weird thing about the two games. Chrono Trigger is one of the most optimistic stories one can conceive. A bunch of random children witness the fated destruction of the entire world and decide "we're totally going to stop this no matter how much effort it takes" and they succeed without ever wavering, even when their leader is killed. Meanwhile Chrono Cross is a hugely pessimistic story where humans are depicted as complete dicks who almost deserve to be wiped out and the threat from the last game not only wasn't defeated, but now threatens to consume all parallel worlds. The contrast is incredibly striking. Did Kato's wife leave him or something? How did writing so positive become so bleak?

Might have to do with the fact that Trigger was produced by Kazuhiko Aoki and supervised by Yuji Horii. Kato was in charge of Radical Dreamers and Cross, so he was free to twist the story to suit his vision without the Dream Team keeping him in check.

On 4/6/2022 at 1:49 PM, Jotari said:

That's another thing, the gimmick of the parallel worlds is kind of muted by the two worlds feeling almost indistinguishable from each other. There's something different about each area but remember what is where is an outright chore. The two worlds are far too similar. To some extent they wrote themselves into a corner by making the time skip occur such a short time ago (it's what like five or six years, right?), so it's logical things would be almost identical, but I still feel something could have been done at the very least with colour palettes or something to give each world a more unified feel.

Ten years, actually.

Termina best shows off the contrast between the two, as the atmosphere is festive in Another World and more reserved and militaristic in Home World due to Porre having conquered the region years ago. Hydra Marsh is also pretty pronounced, as it looks far more polluted and toxic in Another World. And then of course there's Fargo's ship, a pirate vessel in one world and a luxury cruise vessel in the other. That said, I agree that the game could have probably used more visible differences.

[Jotari]

36 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

 

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Ah, right. I got the reincarnation in Fort Dragonia and the fusion of the Tears into the Chrono Cross mixed up. Never mind then.

 

Kinda both? If I could rework the game into what I think it should have been, I'd overhaul a good majority of the playable roster and bring in a lot of new characters who actually matter to the story because you recruit them as part of following their story paths.

See, how I'd handle the large number of characters is by making it so you only recruit a handful during a given playthrough. The ideal maximum would be around two party members per innate, adding up to 12 by the end of the game. Of course some characters could appear on more than one path, helping keep the number under control.

The benefit of this approach is that you don't have to write scenes around every playable character; each character is allowed to have unique dialogue because they're the only character who will speak that dialogue. This in turn allows you to develop that character within the stories where they're relevant while leaving them with a minimal presence in the rest.

Well you don't need to write scenes around every playable characters just by default. Umaro doesn't get scenes focused on him just by being present in the party in Final Fantasy VI. Final Fantasy VI gets around it by actually force deploying the characters that actually have a role in the story.

Quote

If environmentalism and race dynamics were supposed to be the focus, then Kato expressed that in rather poor fashion with hypocrites and informed flaws (on the humans' part). I hope one can pardon me if I prefer the plot elements that actually matter and tie in to the game Cross is supposed to be a sequel to.

Well yes, they're bad, that's not really in debate. But they're in the game for a reason (along with paradox shenanigans that probably wouldn't make sense even if the game gave me enough reason to care about them).

Quote

Termina best shows off the contrast between the two, as the atmosphere is festive in Another World and more reserved and militaristic in Home World due to Porre having conquered the region years ago. Hydra Marsh is also pretty pronounced, as it looks far more polluted and toxic in Another World. And then of course there's Fargo's ship, a pirate vessel in one world and a luxury cruise vessel in the other. That said, I agree that the game could have probably used more visible differences.

Yeah, those first two and the swirling north east of the map are literally the only examples that come to mind when trying to think of differences.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Jotari

[Lord_Brand]

On 4/9/2022 at 1:05 PM, Jotari said:

Well you don't need to write scenes around every playable characters just by default. Umaro doesn't get scenes focused on him just by being present in the party in Final Fantasy VI. Final Fantasy VI gets around it by actually force deploying the characters that actually have a role in the story.

It's more that you can create interesting scenarios and make it so that each playable character matters in the stories where they appear. Instead of randomly inserting turnips, talking flowers, and pink dogs with zero bearing on the plot whatsoever, you can write interesting characters who fit into the game's world. A game with numerous story paths and unique party combinations is loads more replayable than a game that gives us half-meaningful choices exactly twice (and in both those cases, the outcome is ultimately the same anyway).

On 4/9/2022 at 1:05 PM, Jotari said:

Well yes, they're bad, that's not really in debate. But they're in the game for a reason (along with paradox shenanigans that probably wouldn't make sense even if the game gave me enough reason to care about them).

Yes, that reason being Kato felt like pushing messages that we were seeing all over the place at the time anyway. Racism = bad, environmentalism = good. We get it. What we didn't get was a fully-baked game with a fully-fleshed out cast and a plot that was enjoyable to follow.

On 4/9/2022 at 1:05 PM, Jotari said:

Yeah, those first two and the swirling north east of the map are literally the only examples that come to mind when trying to think of differences.

Ah, forgot Water Dragon Isle being all dried up in Another World yet overflowing with water in Home World. Given that the difference is ten years, there's only so much they could change about locations like Mt. Pyre or Isle of the Damned.

Another issue I've discovered:

Spoiler

I really hate that you have to wait until you're back to being Serge to get all your old party members back. That was a colossal waste of an opportunity to develop those characters by convincing them that you really are Serge and getting them to rejoin your party, and in the process give the game more length. By the time you get them all back, you have two dungeons left, Chronopolis and Terra Tower. Most of the fun stuff's already over, and your party members have basically zero room left for development. Not to mention, the game sends the message that your old friends will only trust you if you look how they want you to. Way to push a message of superficiality, game. Even worse, some of them would join you later if you hadn't recruited them earlier anyway! Why not just have them rejoin your party!? Why can you only recruit them as Serge or as Lynx and not both? Gods, this game can be infuriatingly stupid!

On that note, it's really disappointing that the game's practically over by the time you go back to being Serge. I used to think of Serge-Lynx-Serge as three acts of the game, but in hindsight I realized a lot more happens during the first Serge segment than either the Lynx or especially second Serge segments. At least Lynx's part lasts long enough to have some fun, but with Serge II, the last two dungeons just breeze by and the game's over before you know it. I really wish there was more to do once we get Serge back.