Micaiah & Sothe

[jameslove001]

I don't think this is a spoiler by any means, especially given the age of the games, but I have a question about Sothe and Micaiah. When I played through the games I saw this relationship as pretty maternal. I play FEH now and there seems to be more of a connotation of romance between the two. So, what is their relationship?

[Etrurian emperor]

There's definitely the awkward aspect that Michy pretty much raised Sothe, however during Radiant Dawn I didn't really see the relation as parental. Partially because Sothe spend a lot of time in protective boyfriend mode. And it really felt more akin to that than brotherly protective instinct or a son looking after his mom. On Michy's end she also came across as far too dependent on Sothe to resemble his mom. For most of the game its Sothe taking care of her, with maybe only her conversation with Muarim really conveying parental vibes on her part. 

[vanguard333]

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

There's definitely the awkward aspect that Michy pretty much raised Sothe, however during Radiant Dawn I didn't really see the relation as parental. Partially because Sothe spend a lot of time in protective boyfriend mode. And it really felt more akin to that than brotherly protective instinct or a son looking after his mom. On Michy's end she also came across as far too dependent on Sothe to resemble his mom. For most of the game its Sothe taking care of her, with maybe only her conversation with Muarim really conveying parental vibes on her part. 

I didn't see their relationship as parental either. That said, I am probably the biggest Micaiah and Sothe defender on this forum (though that's not saying much).

Does this line of dialogue seem like something two people with a parental bond would say?

Sothe: “Entering Gallia by yourselves would be nearly impossible. The man you need to get you into Gallia actually resides in Crimea. That man, Ike, is in contact with King Caineghis and his advisors. There’s no doubt in my mind that he’s the man you need.”

Micaiah: “Right. Lord Ike, hero of the Crimean Liberation, leader of the Greil Mercenaries, and father of Sothe’s children…”

Edited July 27, 2022 by vanguard333

[Sunwoo]

I don't think the writers ever thought out the implications of Micaiah and Sothe's relationship when they decided to go from "Micaiah raised Sothe when he was a small child" to "we're like brother and sister" to "they canonically get married unless you go out of the way to break A-support". It's pretty shitty. And Heroes in Japanese apparently decided to give them a little involving "little brother and older sister" in their DUO BRIDAL ALT while the conversation itself seemed leaning romantic.

This is also the same game development company that decided to throw in incest-y things like Lachesis crushing heavily on Eldigan, Priscilla's feelings towards Raven, and Corrin having zero issues marrying the Nohrians or the Hoshidans after learning they're not related to either group (and Azura possibly being Corrin's actual related cousin). At this point I would be legitimately surprised if the majority of people who work on the scripts and supports have any siblings or cousins.

tl;dr Micaiah and Sothe's relationship does have some weird vibes, but unfortunately it is par for the course of this series.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

I don't think the writers ever thought out the implications of Micaiah and Sothe's relationship when they decided to go from "Micaiah raised Sothe when he was a small child" to "we're like brother and sister" to "they canonically get married unless you go out of the way to break A-support". It's pretty shitty. And Heroes in Japanese apparently decided to give them a little involving "little brother and older sister" in their DUO BRIDAL ALT while the conversation itself seemed leaning romantic.

The funny thing is that I don't recall Sothe or Micaiah (or any other characters really) saying that they are like siblings. It's been a long time since I played Radiant Dawn, so I could easily be misremembering, but I don't recall anyone in the game describing them as like siblings. The closest to it that I can think of is Ike in Path of Radiance asking if Sothe and Micaiah are family and Sothe answering, "Yeah. I mean, we're not related by blood or anything, but...we're definitely family", and that could easily mean a romantic bond and not necessarily a familial one.

 

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

This is also the same game development company that decided to throw in incest-y things like Lachesis crushing heavily on Eldigan, Priscilla's feelings towards Raven, and Corrin having zero issues marrying the Nohrians or the Hoshidans after learning they're not related to either group (and Azura possibly being Corrin's actual related cousin). At this point I would be legitimately surprised if the majority of people who work on the scripts and supports have any siblings or cousins.

Corrin and Azura being biological cousins despite Azura being the implied canon romance in every route was particularly weird and sickening. I remember playing through every route and having Corrin and Azura s-support in each one, and then being grossed out when that reveal happened in Revelation.

[Sunwoo]

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

The funny thing is that I don't recall Sothe or Micaiah (or any other characters really) saying that they are like siblings. It's been a long time since I played Radiant Dawn, so I could easily be misremembering, but I don't recall anyone in the game describing them as like siblings. The closest to it that I can think of is Ike in Path of Radiance asking if Sothe and Micaiah are family and Sothe answering, "Yeah. I mean, we're not related by blood or anything, but...we're definitely family", and that could easily mean a romantic bond and not necessarily a familial one.

Micaiah: King Naesala. You are by yourself today?
Naesala: Yeah. How about you? Where’s that stone-faced sidekick of yours?
Micaiah: He’s just hesitant to show his emotions.
Naesala: I’m only joking. Don’t get so defensive.
Micaiah: Then don’t insult my family.
Naesala: Hmph. You say he’s your brother, but there’s as much resemblance between you two as between me and Skrimir.
Micaiah: We’re not related, but we’re very close. Perhaps like you and Princess Leanne.

Source

Heroes, regardless of how valid you consider it, also seems to be particularly heavy on bringing up how they consider themselves siblings. This is particularly egregious because they could've decided to lay off that aspect of their connection, and instead doubled down on it.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Sunwoo

[vanguard333]

10 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Micaiah: King Naesala. You are by yourself today?
Naesala: Yeah. How about you? Where’s that stone-faced sidekick of yours?
Micaiah: He’s just hesitant to show his emotions.
Naesala: I’m only joking. Don’t get so defensive.
Micaiah: Then don’t insult my family.
Naesala: Hmph. You say he’s your brother, but there’s as much resemblance between you two as between me and Skrimir.
Micaiah: We’re not related, but we’re very close. Perhaps like you and Princess Leanne.

Thanks. I really did not remember that conversation.

One thing I find funny about that conversation is that Micaiah only says "family", just like Sothe did in Path of Radiance; it's Naesala who jumps to the "siblings" conclusion, while Micaiah instead compares her and Sothe to Naesala and Leanne (which would imply a romantic bond, as Naesala and Leanne are very clearly in love and they get married and have two kids together if they have an a-support). So the conversation does kind-of imply that Naesala is jumping to the wrong conclusion when he says "brother".

 

10 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Heroes, regardless of how valid you consider it, also seems to be particularly heavy on bringing up how they consider themselves siblings. This is particularly egregious because they could've decided to lay off that aspect of their connection, and instead doubled down on it.

I haven't played Heroes pretty much since it first released. I don't know if I would consider it valid or not. That said, Heroes having them consider themselves siblings is definitely bad.

Edited July 27, 2022 by vanguard333

[Sunwoo]

4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

One thing I find funny about that conversation is that Micaiah only says "family", just like Sothe did in Path of Radiance; it's Naesala who jumps to the "siblings" conclusion, while Micaiah instead compares her and Sothe to Naesala and Leanne (which would imply a romantic bond, as Naesala and Leanne are very clearly in love and they get married and have two kids together if they have an a-support). So the conversation does kind-of imply that Naesala is jumping to the wrong conclusion when he says "brother".

Not completely. Naesala's words exactly are "you say he's your brother", which also could imply that Micaiah has stated off-screen that she and Sothe are like brother and sister, and he's just repeating information he's heard from her.

Micaiah:“That must be it… Oh, Sothe, ever since he was small, he’s tried to act more grown up than the grown-ups… I’ve taken care of him so long, and still I’ve never seen him smile so easily before.”

Source

This kinda dialogue also doesn't really do Micaiah any favors, where she sounds more like a guardian or parent or even much older sibling reflecting proudly on their kid.

I really don't care enough about Micaiah, or Sothe, or Micaiah/Sothe to get into a whole discussion about how their relationship is portrayed. But it's weird enough to be a turn-off to enough people, and another aspect of how IS can be really weird about sibling relations, regardless of whether the parties are related or not.

[vanguard333]

6 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Not completely. Naesala's words exactly are "you say he's your brother", which also could imply that Micaiah has stated off-screen that she and Sothe are like brother and sister, and he's just repeating information he's heard from her.

Micaiah:“That must be it… Oh, Sothe, ever since he was small, he’s tried to act more grown up than the grown-ups… I’ve taken care of him so long, and still I’ve never seen him smile so easily before.”

Source

This kinda dialogue also doesn't really do Micaiah any favors, where she sounds more like a guardian or parent or even much older sibling reflecting proudly on their kid.

I really don't care enough about Micaiah, or Sothe, or Micaiah/Sothe to get into a whole discussion about how their relationship is portrayed. But it's weird enough to be a turn-off to enough people, and another aspect of how IS can be really weird about sibling relations, regardless of whether the parties are related or not.

Okay. I wasn't trying to adamantly defend that conversation anyway; just point out something I found funny about it.

Yeah; I agree that it is just weird enough; I don't find it too weird, but I definitely understand people finding it weird.

[Florete]

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I didn't see their relationship as parental either. That said, I am probably the biggest Micaiah and Sothe defender on this forum (though that's not saying much).

Ah, a challenger. Micaiah and Sothe is one of the few canon or pseudo-canon relationships in the series I actually like.

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Corrin and Azura being biological cousins despite Azura being the implied canon romance in every route was particularly weird and sickening. I remember playing through every route and having Corrin and Azura s-support in each one, and then being grossed out when that reveal happened in Revelation.

The thing to note about this is that cousin marriage isn't taboo in Japan, so they may add without really thinking about it. Lucina and Owain could marry in the JP version of Awakening, but they altered it in the western release. They kinda just had to let it go in Fates, though, because non-romantic partners don't end up with children.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Florete

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

Ah, a challenger. Micaiah and Sothe is one of the few canon or pseudo-canon relationships in the series I actually like.

The thing to note about this is that cousin marriage isn't taboo in Japan, so they may add without really thinking about it. Lucina and Owain could marry in the JP version of Awakening, but they altered it in the western release. They kinda just had to let it go in Fates, though, because non-romantic partners don't end up with children.

Huh; I thought I was practically alone on this forum in terms of defending Micaiah and Sothe; hence my "though that's not saying much" statement.

Yeah; I'm aware. That said, the reveal that they're cousins happens in one line of dialogue and then is never brought up again, and the localization team bothered to change lines to stay stuff like, "Behave like the adult you technically are" to deal with issues such as Elise's age, so that team could've easily adjusted the reveal to make them no longer biological cousins in the localization; maybe have Mikoto say that Arete was her foster-sister or something like that. But they didn't.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I rather like Micaiah and Sothe as well. Not my all-time fave but it actually feels like two characters in a relationship and that's weirdly an underused dynamic in this series (Pent and Louise for another rare example).

I think some people get a bit too caught up in thinking relationships are static, and that an initially non-romantic relationship can't evolve into a romantic one. Micaiah and Sothe are not siblings. They are two individuals who share a close connection. Maybe they even called each other siblings due to lacking other language to described the close bond they shared. Eventually, when they were both old enough to be consenting adults, they realized they had romantic feelings for each other. 

I don't think the relationship feels incestuous, and I see no evidence that Micaiah groomed Sothe. Actual incest is gross because of the abuse of power/trust, but I don't really see any here.

On 7/27/2022 at 4:16 PM, vanguard333 said:

Corrin and Azura being biological cousins despite Azura being the implied canon romance in every route was particularly weird and sickening.

I don't ship 'em, but I can't really bring myself to feel strongly about Corrin/Azura. Biological cousins do in fact get married sometimes. To me it's a far, far more sickening that Corrin can marry Elise (the other siblings are also squick to varying degrees, but Elise is on another level). I like Fates but I feel it's as if the devs wanted people to not respect the game, with decisions like that.

[jameslove001]

I honestly didn't expect the thread to take off like this, and it has been fun reading all of this in one go. @Dark Holy Elf I really like the take on relationships being dynamic as opposed to static and also the lack of word to describe a relationship. I think many of us have been in a place where we are like "Well, he isn't family, but he is my brother," or "I don't know what to call her, but she is family." You did a good job capturing that.

[vanguard333]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I don't ship 'em, but I can't really bring myself to feel strongly about Corrin/Azura. Biological cousins do in fact get married sometimes. To me it's a far, far more sickening that Corrin can marry Elise (the other siblings are also squick to varying degrees, but Elise is on another level). I like Fates but I feel it's as if the devs wanted people to not respect the game, with decisions like that.

Oh; don't get me wrong; I think that's gross as well. Corrin should not have been able to s-support any of the Hoshido or Nohr siblings.

I suspect that Fates was developed less as a game in its own right and more as IS throwing everything at the wall to see what stuck. It's telling that they advertised Birthright as being like Awakening and Conquest as being like the older games, and that they included 2nd-gen characters despite it not fitting the game at all. I suspect that they wanted to include everything they could to see what people would like, and Corrin being able to s-support the royals was part of that.

 

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I rather like Micaiah and Sothe as well. Not my all-time fave but it actually feels like two characters in a relationship and that's weirdly an underused dynamic in this series (Pent and Louise for another rare example).

I think some people get a bit too caught up in thinking relationships are static, and that an initially non-romantic relationship can't evolve into a romantic one. Micaiah and Sothe are not siblings. They are two individuals who share a close connection. Maybe they even called each other siblings due to lacking other language to described the close bond they shared. Eventually, when they were both old enough to be consenting adults, they realized they had romantic feelings for each other. 

I don't think the relationship feels incestuous, and I see no evidence that Micaiah groomed Sothe. Actual incest is gross because of the abuse of power/trust, but I don't really see any here.

Yeah, I agree, both with your assessment of Micaiah and Sothe and with the idea of two characters already in a relationship being underutilized in FE. The only other example I could think of was Marth and Caeda.

[lenticular]

Relationship status: It's complicated.

People are weird and complicated and don't always fit neatly into boxes, and I like when fiction reflects that. The relationship between Micaiah and Sothe is the relationship between Micaiah and Sothe. It is sui generis. There are elements to it that resemble a parental relationship, a sibling relationship, a romance, and a friendship, but it isn't any of these things. It's its own thing.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

The notion of them getting married and having sex is... weird. Disquieting. Unsettling. I'm not gonna say it's immoral, if it's between two consenting adults, but it's... like, imagine growing up to date your former babysitter. Or your nanny. Calling it "incestuous" is too severe, but it's hard to imagine a relationship transforming to such a degree.

I will say that the "Micaiah is a groomer" assertion is, to put it charitably, overblown. Micaiah took care of Sothe, but it doesn't appear that she had any motivations related to romantic or sexual fulfillment in doing so. And there's no evidence that any such interactions occured between them before the events of Path of Radiance. Even as someone who's broadly uncomfortable with the end state of their relationship, I wouldn't unironically refer to it as "grooming".

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

don't ship 'em, but I can't really bring myself to feel strongly about Corrin/Azura. Biological cousins do in fact get married sometimes. To me it's a far, far more sickening that Corrin can marry Elise (the other siblings are also squick to varying degrees, but Elise is on another level). I like Fates but I feel it's as if the devs wanted people to not respect the game, with decisions like that.

Obviously, the game just wants us to treat Elise like the adult she technically is. Why, I daresay it'd be an insult NOT to seduce your little sister!