Theorycrafting the Ultimate Class System - Dual Paths

[Fabulously Olivier]

Here's my thought experiment for a class system that can be both incredibly flexible, and preserve unit identity.

 

The Basics

Every unit would start in one of the base classes, except for prepromotes who join in their canon class. Any unit can be reclassed to any of their other unlocked classes at any time, though all skills learned in a class would now be class exclusive.

Every advanced class would be either the result of hybridization. Classes are unlocked by achieving sufficient support rank with characters of the appropriate class. Meaning that each character's possibilities are defined by their support list.

Supports would also confer rewards as such:

C Support - Increased xp/weapon rank bonus when Training together. Grants stat bonuses when nearby as usual.

B Support - Unlock advanced classes involving the other character's class. For the purposes of this, Dancers would constitute Thieves and Lords would constitute the class closest to their function (ie: Marth would grant Myrmidon, Ephraim would grant Soldier, Hector would grant Armor Knight). Increases stat bonus and training bonus.

A Support - Further increases allied stat bonus and training bonus. May provide additional items.

 

Growth Rates

Base stats would be character specific.

A majority of growth rates would be determined by the individual character. Additional bonuses and penalities would be provided by the base class and advanced class. 

Enemies would use class default bases and growths per normal.

 

Skills

The class skills of the base class will always be carried over to the advanced class, regardless of which is chosen, and then the advanced class skills will be added on top. Advanced class skills are specific and would not carry over to the new class if you reclass. Skill grinding is not fun. Sorry, not sorry.

 

Myrmidon (Swords)

Spoiler

Myrmidon + Thief or Brawler = Swordmaster

Myrmidon + Fighter = Hero

Myrmidon + Soldier = Sentinel

Myrmidon + Archer = Assassin

Myrmidon + Mage = Rogue

Myrmidon + Priest/Cleric = Trickster

Myrmidon + Pegasus Knight or Wyvern Rider = Falcon Knight

Myrmidon + Cavalier = Paladin

Myrmidon + Armor Knight = General

 

Fighter (Axes)  

Spoiler

Fighter + Myrmidon = Hero

Fighter + Soldier = Halberdier

Fighter + Thief = Pirate

Fighter + Brawler = Berserker

Fighter + Archer = Warrior

Fighter + Mage = Malig Knight

Fighter + Priest/Cleric = Templar

Fighter + Pegasus Rider or Wyvern Rider = Wyvern Lord

Fighter + Cavalier = Great Knight

Fighter + Armor Knight = General

 

Soldier (Lances)

Spoiler

Soldier + Myrmidon = Sentinel

Soldier + Fighter = Halberdier

Soldier + Thief = Ninja

Soldier + Brawler = Spear Master

Soldier + Archer = Scout

Soldier + Mage = Basara

Soldier + Priest/Cleric = Templar

Soldier + Wyvern Rider or Pegasus Knight = Dragoon

Soldier + Cavalier = Paladin

Soldier + Armor Knight = General

 

Thief (Swords)

Spoiler

All promotions of primary Thieves would have Steal, Stealth, & Locktouch.

Thief + Myrmidon or Brawler = Swordmaster

Thief + Fighter = Pirate

Thief + Soldier = Ninja

Thief + Archer = Assassin

Thief + Mage = Rogue

Thief + Priest/Cleric = Trickster

Thief + Cavalier = Paladin

Thief + Pegasus Knight/Wyvern Rider = Pegasus Knight/Wyvern Knight

Thief + Armor Knight = General

 

Brawler (Body Arts)

Spoiler

Brawler + Myrmidon or Thief = Swordmaster

Brawler + Fighter = Berserker

Brawler + Soldier = Spear Master

Brawler + Archer = Sniper

Brawler + Mage = Avatar

Brawler + Priest/Cleric = Monk

Brawler + Cavalier/Pegasus Rider/Wyvern Rider = Dragoon

Brawler + Armor Knight = Gladiator

 

Archer (Bows)

Spoiler

Archer + Myrmidon or Thief = Assassin

Archer + Fighter = Warrior

Archer + Soldier = Scout

Archer + Brawler = Sniper

Archer + Mage = Druid

Archer + Priest/Cleric = Adventurer

Archer + Cavalier = Ranger

Archer + Pegasus Rider or Wyvern Rider = Kinshi Knight

Archer + Armor Knight = Ballistician

 

Mage (Anima/Dark)

Spoiler

Mage + Myrmidon or Thief = Rogue

Mage + Fighter or Wyvern Rider = Malig Knight

Mage + Soldier = Basara

Mage + Brawler = Avatar

Mage + Archer = Druid

Mage + Priest/Cleric = Sage

Mage + Cavalier = Dark Knight

Mage + Pegasus Rider or Wyvern Rider = Malig Knight

Mage + Armor Knight = Mage Knight

 

Priest/Cleric (Light and Staves)

Spoiler

Priest/Cleric + Myrmidon or Thief = Trickster

Priest/Cleric + Fighter, Soldier, or Armor Knight = Templar

Priest/Cleric + Archer = Adventurer

Priest/Cleric + Mage = Sage

Priest/Cleric + Cavalier = Holy Knight

Priest/Cleric + Pegasus Knight or Wyvern Rider = Griffon Knight

 

Cavalier (Lances, Mounted)

Spoiler

Cavalier + Myrmidon, Thief, or Soldier = Paladin

Cavalier + Fighter or Armor Knight = Great Knight

Cavalier + Brawler = Dragoon

Cavalier + Archer = Ranger

Cavalier + Mage = Dark Knight

Cavalier + Priest/Cleric = Holy Knight

 

Pegasus Knight/Wyvern Rider (Lances, Flying)

Spoiler

Wyvern Rider (base) would be male exclusive. Pegasus Knight (base) would be female exclusive. The only difference would be a cosmetic difference in their sword class. This condenses the tree and preserves the female pegasus lore while not hindering either mechanically.

 

Rider + Myrmidon or Thief = Falcon Knight/Wyvern Knight

Rider + Soldier or Brawler = Dragoon

Rider + Fighter or Armor Knight = Wyvern Lord

Rider + Archer = Kinshi Knight

Rider + Mage = Malig Knight

Rider + Priest/Cleric = Griffon Knight

 

Armor Knight (Axes and Lances, Armored)

Spoiler

Armor Knight + Myrmidon or Thief = Master of Arms

Armor Knight + Fighter = General

Armor Knight + Soldier = Halberdier

Armor Knight + Archer = Ballistician

Armor Knight + Mage = Mage Knight

Armor Knight + Monk = Templar

Armor Knight + Cavalier = Great Knight

Armor Knight + Pegasus Knight or Wyvern Rider = Wyvern Lord

 

Lords and Dancers

Spoiler

For balance and practicality reasons (only one dancer and lord per army), Dancers and Lords can only be primary users and would take a Tellius philosophy on things. When they reclass into Great Lord (or equivalent) or Master Dancer (or equivalent), the character will gain the weapon type of their chosen support partner. In the case of duplicate weapon types, it defaults to Body Arts. In the case of Armor Knights, it defaults to Axe, then Lance if the Lord in question already has axes.

 

Advanced Classes

Spoiler

Infantry

Swordmaster - swordwielders with peerless speed and skill. Supplement their swordplay with body arts.

Hero - sword and axe wielders with balanced stats

Sentinel - sword and lance infantry with balanced stats and high defense

Assassin - speedy sword and bow wielders with lethal strikes. 

Trickster - lightning fast healers with swords

Pirate - Seafaring sword and axe wielders with high speed and luck.

Berserker - Fast and reckless masters of axes and body arts

Halberdier - Skilled wielders of axe and lance, adept at countering cavalry.

Warrior - Adaptable axe and bow wielders with high strength, skill, and hp.

Ninja - Fast units who excel at debuffs. Wields spears and bows to aim for the heart.

Scout - Unique and adaptable units with high mobility, increased vision range, and hawk companions that can harass foes.

Dragoon - Swift and ferocious knights who fight alongside their wyvern companion with their lance and body arts.

Basara - A strange magical spear class adept at utilizing both Strength and Magic together in attacks.

Spear Master - Fragile but highly aggressive spear units who supplement their lance work with body arts.

Rogue - Swift and aggressive, but fragile mages with improved mobility. Coloquially known as Spellswords.

Sniper - Powerful archers who excel at picking off foes from long range. When attacked at close range, they're adept at countering foes with bow-based defensive body arts.

Druid - Magical archers who are adept at fighting in Forest tiles.

Adventurer - Survalists adept in bows and healing.

Sage - Masters of all forms of magic.

Avatar - Powerful mages who channel their magics into their fists.

Monk - Swift and nimble holy warriors who can target foes' pressure points with their fists.

 

Cavalry

Paladin - the essential martial horseman. Mobile, balanced, and capable with lances and swords.

Great Knight - slow, heavy mounted knights with lances and axes.

Dark Knight - highly mobile mages who can imbue their lances with magic.

Holy Knight - mounted healers who rely on their lances for self-defense

Ranger - mounted archers who specialize in guerilla warfare. Also adept in lances.

 

Fliers

Wyvern Knight (male)/Falcon Knight (female) - Lance and Sword wielders who take to the skies with great speed and skill.

Wyvern Lord - Axe and Lance wielders with great Str and Def.

Kinshi Knight - Skyfairing archers and lancers.

Malig Knight - Flying sorcerors of great cunning and cruelty. Wield lances.

Griffon Rider - Flying healers of great courage that wield lances

 

Armor

General - Heavy knights capable of mastering the whole primary weapon triangle, specialize in area buffs.

Ballistician - Slow-moving siege masters who carry giant crossbows to strike from incredible range.

Mage Knight - Armored mages who can erect magical barriers to block enemy pathing and defend targets.

Templar - Zealous armored paragons who strike down evil and heal allies.

Gladiator - A heavily armored arena fighter who utilizes lances, axes, and fists to aggressively destroy foes. Especially proficient against beasts.

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[joevar]

that is more or less what i want. giving ample choices, but still within character/unit identity. and making growth rate for hybrid class matter also feels like borrowing the mechanism found in CRPG, which is great imo.

just little question

2 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Every advanced class would be either the result of specialization (Myrmidon -> Swordmaster) or hybridization (Myrmidon+Fighter -> Hero). 

why not just add that specialization in their respective class drop down/spoiler  list ? since some people wouldnt know what soldier (for example) will become without hybrid.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Wait so how does our Myrmidon become a Swordmaster? I don't know what "+Thief" means. Is there something you need to do besides leveling up to 10 and using a master seal? do you need to class change into a thief and spend time in both classes in order to unlock Swordmaster like some kind of class mastery pre-requisite?

Is this system meant to replace or be a complement to free reclassing? Do our weapon ranks play a role like in Three Houses? In what ways do you think a Fire Emblem game ought to balance specialized vs hybridized classes? Do you think it makes sense for all units (including pre-promotes) to have this level of customization? Is there some reason I would want to kick out a fully customized unit in favor of a newly recruited pre-promote that has to be molded from scratch? We need more information about what problems this system is meant to solve. Right now this reads like "I incorporated more classes into FE8's branched promotion system, and just like FE8 your base class impacts your growth rates".

Also why are ALL the punching classes healer hybrids? You got some kinda issue with grapplers? 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

So wait. How can this:

2 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Myrmidon + Thief = Swordmaster

Coexist with this:

2 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Thief + Myrmidon = Assassin

Does the "hybridization order" matter here? Or was this a simple oversight?

2 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

A majority of growth rates would be determined by your base class, with moderate bonuses for character growths and small bonuses for advanced class choice. This is to make a unit's base class matter - a Hero who starts as a Myrmidon will have different growths from one who starts as a Fighter.

This comes across as a needless complication. If two classes carry the same name and appearance, I'm of the belief that they should operate the same "under the hood".

23 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Also why are ALL the punching classes healer hybrids? You got some kinda issue with grapplers? 

This confused me as well. Is Monk a magic-using class, or a brawling one?

Broad strokes: I'm certainly not opposed to more options for the player, generally speaking. But this is kind of a lot to take in at once. I would need to know what "hybridization" entails before rendering a judgement. Like, do I get my Myrmidon and Fighter to A-support, and then either of them can go Hero?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

38 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So wait. How can this:

Coexist with this:

Does the "hybridization order" matter here? Or was this a simple oversight?

I noticed that too. Except the example that jumped out at me was Cavalier + Monk to make Holy Knight. We're presuming that mounted classes can't punch like in Three Houses, thus the monk base class is forever foot locked. And I say that's a cowardly decision. How about a Kung Fu Wyvern class? Where a unit leaps off their mount into combat and tag teams with the wyvern against the enemy? If any class should become a "beast master", it's gotta be the guys studying nature and martial arts - like a monk. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn

[joevar]

14 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I noticed that too. Except the example that jumped out at me was Cavalier + Monk to make Holy Knight. We're presuming that mounted classes can't punch like in Three Houses, thus the monk base class is forever foot locked. And I say that's a cowardly decision. How about a Kung Fu Wyvern class? Where a unit leaps off their mount into combat and tag teams with the wyvern against the enemy? If any class should become a "beast master", it's gotta be the guys studying nature and martial arts - like a monk. 

beast master might be better. its cool, practical, and dont need weapon too.

hand to hand combat on top of wyvern is such a weird idea, its way easier to just lightly tap the enemy using its wing, or just straight ram the enemy. altho if you want to do jumping kick ala Kamen Rider (jump from bike mid ride > kick enemy> land back on moving bike ) that may be possible too, but i cant imagine how to choreograph that

[Fabulously Olivier]

12 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Wait so how does our Myrmidon become a Swordmaster? I don't know what "+Thief" means. Is there something you need to do besides leveling up to 10 and using a master seal? do you need to class change into a thief and spend time in both classes in order to unlock Swordmaster like some kind of class mastery pre-requisite?

Is this system meant to replace or be a complement to free reclassing? Do our weapon ranks play a role like in Three Houses? In what ways do you think a Fire Emblem game ought to balance specialized vs hybridized classes? Do you think it makes sense for all units (including pre-promotes) to have this level of customization? Is there some reason I would want to kick out a fully customized unit in favor of a newly recruited pre-promote that has to be molded from scratch? We need more information about what problems this system is meant to solve. Right now this reads like "I incorporated more classes into FE8's branched promotion system, and just like FE8 your base class impacts your growth rates".

Also why are ALL the punching classes healer hybrids? You got some kinda issue with grapplers? 

I didn't imagine it as anything other than a set of choices on promotion, but tying it to a character's support pool is probably the best way to go about it, seeing as it would define both the restriction and the unlock method. It certainly makes sense for promotion to come about as a result of training with others.

 

No, I don't hate brawlers. Quite the opposite. Framme's monk class fantasy is something I've wanted for a long time. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to splitting the brawler and monk archetypes and recombining them as an advanced class. Which I might do.

 

I find the followup questions frankly unnecessary. What was FE8 trying to solve by adding class branches? What was FE9 trying to solve by removing them, then adding tier 3's to FE10? What was SD solving by adding reclassing, and Fates solving by restricting that reclassing? What was Three Houses solving by removing weapon restrictions and opening up the class system into a bland gelatenous mess?

 

To answer your question, I think that the benefit of strict classing is that it makes unit's feel distinct, while the benefit of flexible classing is that it is good for roleplaying and replay value. But I also believe that there is a happy medium here that isn't being hit. It isn't super strict, but it also definitely isn't anywhere near as open as Three Houses. It's also not a coincidence that my suggestion comes across as "FE8+," because FE8 had the best class system of any FE, in my opinion, and makes for a good starting framework.

 

I would also like to eliminate some of the unfun gameplay that reclassing has introduced. Namely, skill hunting. Reclassing just to obtain skills for the class you actually want to play is not fun, has never been fun, and is only made worse in games with inheritance.

 

10 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I noticed that too. Except the example that jumped out at me was Cavalier + Monk to make Holy Knight. We're presuming that mounted classes can't punch like in Three Houses, thus the monk base class is forever foot locked. And I say that's a cowardly decision. How about a Kung Fu Wyvern class? Where a unit leaps off their mount into combat and tag teams with the wyvern against the enemy? If any class should become a "beast master", it's gotta be the guys studying nature and martial arts - like a monk. 

So, the Assassin/Swordmaster thing wasn't an oversight. It was a complication. I couldn't figure out how to roll in Sniper to the trio without creating a new sword base class (Mercenary), which was a bit much. It may be best to just remove Sniper and roll its identity into Assassin, which I might do. Ballistician covers Sniper's role anyway.

 

The problem with brawling on a horse/flying mount isn't easily solveable. Any fist animations would look profoundly ridiculous and would need to be reskinned into long claw weapons for either the mount or long blade gauntlets for the character, like how Diofield does it. Perhaps you could achieve that by adding both Body Scrolls and Blade Gauntlets as weapon types, and making the former infantry exclusive.

 

 

Edit:

I certainly like your solution of having the unit dismount in combat and punch things in the face. It is hysterical, but I think we can do one better by having it be a pet class like the Scout. Perhaps it could be coded as a flying unit, despite animating like an infantry one. And for thematics, maybe we can do the same with Dragoon.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[lenticular]

Personally, I feel that issues of unit distinctiveness and deployment diversity tend to get overstated. With pretty much any Fire Emblem, you build you own team so you get to decide how much you value deployment diversity and how you weigh that against how much you value pure optimisation. Yes, it is certainly possible to build an "oops, all wyverns" team in Three Houses, but it's also possible to build an "oops, all paladins" team in Sacred Stones. I also think that there are ways to differentiate characters other than just their class. In Three Houses, there's bases, growths, personal abilities, combat arts, spells, supports, and crests. To me, Wyvern Lord Annette and Wyvern Lord Seteth feel plenty distinct from each other, so I don't really see it as a problem.

Though, that said, tastes vary and it's entirely understandable for you to want to theorycraft a system that meets your own personal tastes. I'm not sure that this system would necessarily work out, though. Part of the problem is that you just have so many classes. By my count, you have 39 different promoted classes (not counting the different dancer variants, and not counting any oddities like Lords or Manaketes who would likely exist outside of the system). By comparison, Three Houses has a total of 25 classes across Advanced, Master and DLC classes (again, not counting Dancer or unique classes, and counting War Monk and War Cleric as the same). Fates has 28 promoted classes (excluding Lord, Dancer and Beast units, as well as DLC/amiibo classes, and counting Maid and Butler as only one) and that's split across the two different routes with many of them not really in competition.

With the best will in the world, getting 39 well-balanced classes just isn't going to happen. Some of them would be overpowered and some would be underpowered, and the temptation will always be to converge on the overpowered classes. So, let's say that flying classes end up being the overpowered ones. In that case, the temptation is just to give everyone their flying promotion, consign anyone without a flying option to trash tier, and end up with a morass of sameness by the end game. And of course, you don't have to do that, you have plenty of other options, but you have plenty of other options in Three Houses or Shadow Dragon as well.

[Fabulously Olivier]

So here's some changes I've made based on feedback.

 

Clarified promotion rules

Characters will need to support allies of the appropriate class to promote. This is both the unlock condition and a way of restricting class pools for each character.

 

Split Brawler from Healer

This allowed me some cool additions. 

Myrmidon or Thief + Brawler - Dread Fighter

Fighter + Brawler - Berserker (Thief + Fighter is now Pirate, much more thematic!)

Archer + Brawler = Sniper (this also allowed me to fix the Myrmidon + Thief inconsistency).

Spear Master and Great Master are now separate upgrades to Soldier.

Sage and the new Avatar are now separate upgrades to Mage.

 

Dragoon was condensed in as the Pegasus/Wyvern upgrade to both Brawler and Soldier, and is now an infantry pet class.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Clarified promotion rules

Characters will need to support allies of the appropriate class to promote. This is both the unlock condition and a way of restricting class pools for each character.

I like this change! Very reminiscent of Fates. But is a support partner required to achieve promotion? Or are there "vanilla promotions" that can be done without this "hybridization"? Also, is there any reward for a unit supporting with an ally of the same class?

4 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Split Brawler from Healer

I broadly like this one, moreso because gluing Brawling and Healing together beforehand felt arbitrary to me. I'm certainly not opposed to a promoted class (i.e. "War Monk") that does both.

5 hours ago, lenticular said:

With the best will in the world, getting 39 well-balanced classes just isn't going to happen. Some of them would be overpowered and some would be underpowered, and the temptation will always be to converge on the overpowered classes.

This is my big point of anxiety too. Sure, a system where "any two classes can cross over to create something new" is an ambitious one with loads of potential. But it also demands loads of work. Especially if, as you've suggested, different versions of the class exist based on what they promoted from. If I encounter an enemy Pirate, how can I know at a glance whether they promoted from Thief or from Fighter?

If you can come up with a solid and distinct definition for each proposed promotion, then more power to ya! But I would take a serious look at trimming the class list down - if only to preserve your own sanity.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

4 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Clarified promotion rules

Characters will need to support allies of the appropriate class to promote. This is both the unlock condition and a way of restricting class pools for each character.

Whoa here we go. This is more inventive than the Kirby 64 class blending stuff. Friends who broaden your horizons. Just like high school, when you've got an open slot in your schedule and your friend is like "join me in shop class". And now you're fending off brigands with just a lug wrench.

But it raises a question. If everybody's locked into their base class, is their promotion choice also permanent? If it is, then players might have buyers remorse from picking the first promotion that was made available. Imagine this is your first fire emblem and you realize "my guy could have ridden a dragon? Man!" And if it's not permanent, we're kind of back to where we were in Three Houses, only our base class is slightly more defined than Commoner/Noble and our promotion options is limited somewhat by our support pool. 

Quote

Archer + Brawler = Sniper

I like the Green Arrow Bow-Fu style. Won't those bulky gauntlets affect your delicate fingers drawing a bowstring? Don't worry about it. I want the dodge-then attack animation to be side stepping the enemy's swing, pulling an arrow and jamming it into the enemies throat like a dagger.

Quote

I would also like to eliminate some of the unfun gameplay that reclassing has introduced. Namely, skill hunting. Reclassing just to obtain skills for the class you actually want to play is not fun, has never been fun, and is only made worse in games with inheritance.

I have to agree with this, especially since Judgral and Tellius both feature a Skill system and it wasn't a problem for them. Being expected to grind is a big turn off for me in an SRPG. I never dug far enough into Fates/Awakening to know about optimal skill pickups, but in Three Houses it was kind of annoying all your physical units had to detour for Death Blow. Class Masteries are a fun idea on a first playthrough when you don't know what you'll get, but to the experienced or guide-using player, it's just homework.

Maybe all we need is a fire emblem game where you still have class skills and personal skills, but your equippable skills are earned completely separately from what class you're in. For instance, each unit having a unique learnset from reaching level 3, 8, 11, etc. Even if there's a ton of overlap in learning skills, the simple difference of picking up a core skill five levels sooner than another unit of the same class would light up those tier list discussions. Ability scrolls could make a comeback too. Raising skill ranks can be another unlock condition. Supporting with the main lord/avatar - presuming that unit has a unique class, this would be THE reward for supporting with them since you couldn't get their class promotion choices.

[Fabulously Olivier]

5 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Whoa here we go. This is more inventive than the Kirby 64 class blending stuff. Friends who broaden your horizons. Just like high school, when you've got an open slot in your schedule and your friend is like "join me in shop class". And now you're fending off brigands with just a lug wrench.

But it raises a question. If everybody's locked into their base class, is their promotion choice also permanent? If it is, then players might have buyers remorse from picking the first promotion that was made available. Imagine this is your first fire emblem and you realize "my guy could have ridden a dragon? Man!" And if it's not permanent, we're kind of back to where we were in Three Houses, only our base class is slightly more defined than Commoner/Noble and our promotion options is limited somewhat by our support pool. 

I like the Green Arrow Bow-Fu style. Won't those bulky gauntlets affect your delicate fingers drawing a bowstring? Don't worry about it. I want the dodge-then attack animation to be side stepping the enemy's swing, pulling an arrow and jamming it into the enemies throat like a dagger.

I have to agree with this, especially since Judgral and Tellius both feature a Skill system and it wasn't a problem for them. Being expected to grind is a big turn off for me in an SRPG. I never dug far enough into Fates/Awakening to know about optimal skill pickups, but in Three Houses it was kind of annoying all your physical units had to detour for Death Blow. Class Masteries are a fun idea on a first playthrough when you don't know what you'll get, but to the experienced or guide-using player, it's just homework.

Maybe all we need is a fire emblem game where you still have class skills and personal skills, but your equippable skills are earned completely separately from what class you're in. For instance, each unit having a unique learnset from reaching level 3, 8, 11, etc. Even if there's a ton of overlap in learning skills, the simple difference of picking up a core skill five levels sooner than another unit of the same class would light up those tier list discussions. Ability scrolls could make a comeback too. Raising skill ranks can be another unlock condition. Supporting with the main lord/avatar - presuming that unit has a unique class, this would be THE reward for supporting with them since you couldn't get their class promotion choices.

Not quite so silly as that, but we do have the concept of the Training Grounds now. May as well make use of them beyond just being a place to level units.

 

I think some form of reclassing is necessary, just so prepromotes can participate in the system. I'd be more inclined to limit it, and not reward it. Maybe we could earn partner seals by maxing out supports with a same-class unit, lord, transformer, or dancer.

 

I was kind of imagining Bow Fu when I put the Sniper back in as the Archer/Brawler. Not sure how one would program it to have specific melee animations, or even how those would trigger. Maybe Body Arts would just have different animations for a few specific classes, and maybe the Sniper could have a class skill to defend itself in melee range with brawling. 

 

As far as distinguishing a Thief Pirate from a Fighter Pirate, enemies could just favor their starting weapon type, or we could resort to class icons, where the background color is the starting class and the icon is the advanced class.

 

I don't consider the prior balance argument to be valid. FE is a single player game and has never been anything approaching balanced. It didn't matter when archers and armors spent most of their lives being useless. It doesn't matter here. If a class is considered bad, it will still see use in joke runs and challenge runs (and also just not matter to the average player). If a class is disproportionately good (as cavaliers, wyvern riders, and pegasus knights tend to be), it will perform as a crutch for less skilled players and LTC runs, and thus serve a different purpose. Most would reasonably fall somewhere in the middle.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

So advanced classes just aren´t available until you get supports? There´s at least one person who didn´t get a single S-support in BR in this here thread and lost Kaze too (if I remember correctly). 

On 10/4/2022 at 2:54 AM, Fabulously Olivier said:

Here's my thought experiment for a class system that can be both incredibly flexible, and preserve unit identity.

A majority of growth rates would be determined by your base class, with moderate bonuses for character growths and small bonuses for advanced class choice. This is to make a unit's base class matter - a Hero who starts as a Myrmidon will have different growths from one who starts as a Fighter.

Unit identity hinges on base stats as well as growths.

Cain/Abel, Leonie/Petra/Ingrid, Ferdinand/Sylvain? Basically the same.

Camilla/Beruka, Arthur/Charlotte, Effie/Bennie, Jacob/Felicia, Hana/Hinata, Subaki/Hinoka, Nyx/Orochi, Silas/Peri, Takumi/Setsuna, Saizo/Kaze/Kagero; those are all distinct units, as unfair as some of these comparisons are.

Distinction for mages can be made more relevant via learned magic.

You won´t get  distinct units with high class growths and modest character growths - being a unit with 50% Mag is very different from being a class with 50% Mag.

14 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Characters will need to support allies of the appropriate class to promote. This is both the unlock condition and a way of restricting class pools for each character.

I would also like to eliminate some of the unfun gameplay that reclassing has introduced. Namely, skill hunting. Reclassing just to obtain skills for the class you actually want to play is not fun, has never been fun, and is only made worse in games with inheritance.

Why try for a flexible system when you put an extreme limiter on it anyway. 

Restricting skills to classes? I sure hope none of your classes are stuck with shit-tier skill lists like Blacksmith from Fates.

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

So advanced classes just aren´t available until you get supports? There´s at least one person who didn´t get a single S-support in BR in this here thread and lost Kaze too (if I remember correctly). 

I'm not talking S supports. I'm talking B, maybe even C support, because that's what is realistically obtainable by the time promotions roll around.

 

Edit 2:

I've updated the OP to clarify support rank rewards, and rework bases/growths to be more per-unit as per popular feedback. I had an intention with the base-class heavy weighting, but that clearly isn't fit for purpose.

Edit 3:

Class system cleaned up somewhat. To make any more changes, I'd have to remove a primary class. Currently the main redundancy is Myrmidon and Thief, which could be fixed by making Thieves a body art class instead of a sword class and removing Brawler. That sounds like a cool and fitting fantasy, so I may do it. Thoughts?

Removed Dread Fighter (Sword + Brawling), or rather changed Swordmaster's recipe to (Sword + Brawling). This fixes an inconsistency, since Swordmaster was the only pure weapon advanced class on the whole list.

Removed Inquisitor (Fighter + Healer) and Great Master (Spear + Healer). These combinations will result in the armored Templar (shared with Knight + Healer).

Removed Mortal Savant (Myrmidon + Mage). No one likes them anyway. This combination will now result in Rogue (shared with Thief + Mage).

Removed Master of Arms (Sword + Armor Knight) and rolled it into General. Now all armor classes have the distinction of 3 weapon types, which is a decent compensation for their armor movement.

Refined the rules for Lord and Dancer promotions. Great Lord and Master Dancer wouldn't branch, per say, but would gain an extra weapon type of your choice based on the same system as everyone else.

If I do make the proposed change above (roll Brawler into Thief), the following changes would occur.

Swordmaster would be Myrmidon + Thief (Sword + Body Arts)

The identity of Pirate would be rolled into Berserker. Berserker would be Thief + Fighter (Axe + Body Arts).

Spear Master would be removed, and the Spear + Body Art class would be Ninja (Thief + Soldier).

Assassin should, of course, always come from Thief. As such, Assassin would become Thief + Archer (Brawling + Bows). 

Myrmidon + Archer could no longer result in Assassin. It could result in Sniper out of tradition, but Ranger would be the more thematically appropriate name here, and as such I would go with that. The current Ranger would be re-renamed to Bow Knight or Nomad.

Rogue (Thief + Mage) would replace Avatar (Brawler + Mage) as the fist wizard. The Sword Mage would be renamed to Spellblade.

Monk would of course be Thief + Healer.

Dragoon would be Thief + Rider.

Gladiator would be Thief + Armor.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

3 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Class system cleaned up somewhat. To make any more changes, I'd have to remove a primary class. Currently the main redundancy is Myrmidon and Thief, which could be fixed by making Thieves a body art class instead of a sword class and removing Brawler. That sounds like a cool and fitting fantasy, so I may do it. Thoughts?

I do wonder: Why no classes with daggers/shuriken, when you are using brawling. Having Thieves be the dedicated kinfe wielders would open up some combinations and ease up on seemingly strange combinations like spear/bow for Ninja.

I think it would be preferable if there would be a set of classes specializing in a single weapon type but receiving bonuses, for having "mastered" said weapon.

[Fabulously Olivier]

39 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

I do wonder: Why no classes with daggers/shuriken, when you are using brawling. Having Thieves be the dedicated kinfe wielders would open up some combinations and ease up on seemingly strange combinations like spear/bow for Ninja.

I think it would be preferable if there would be a set of classes specializing in a single weapon type but receiving bonuses, for having "mastered" said weapon.

Well, from a design perspective, daggers/shuriken have always been somewhat of an odd weapon out in classes, considering they've either been treated as weaker swords or weaker bows with debuffing (which is generally inferior to outright killing things). I am convinced that daggers in Tellius in particular were a means of nerfing particular characters (making assassins weaker in combat and nerfing prepromote mages) rather than any form of viable weapon.

 

I'm certainly supportive of the idea of daggers, which I would dictate as a dedicated 1-2 range low weight debuffing weapon with lower damage. but this means adding even more classes as opposed to cleaning up the existing ones.

 

Edit:

It's not unreasonable that daggers could be treated as an alternative to Body Scrolls for a Brawling class. Just 1-2 range, low might, low weight, maybe debuffs. Basically replacing magic gauntlets as the 1-2 weapon for that class.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 10/5/2022 at 11:32 AM, Fabulously Olivier said:

Class system cleaned up somewhat. To make any more changes, I'd have to remove a primary class. Currently the main redundancy is Myrmidon and Thief, which could be fixed by making Thieves a body art class instead of a sword class and removing Brawler. That sounds like a cool and fitting fantasy, so I may do it. Thoughts?

Funny - this whole time, I had thought your Thief class was using Knives/Daggers. I would be on board for a Brawling Thief class. It makes sense that they would try to travel lightly.

22 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I'm certainly supportive of the idea of daggers, which I would dictate as a dedicated 1-2 range low weight debuffing weapon with lower damage. but this means adding even more classes as opposed to cleaning up the existing ones.

You could make Daggers a subset of Swords, exclusive to Sword Infantry classes.

Or just give them to Thieves. Even if they don't really fit with "Brawling", they definitely fit with the Thief class.

[Fabulously Olivier]

19 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Funny - this whole time, I had thought your Thief class was using Knives/Daggers. I would be on board for a Brawling Thief class. It makes sense that they would try to travel lightly.

You could make Daggers a subset of Swords, exclusive to Sword Infantry classes.

Or just give them to Thieves. Even if they don't really fit with "Brawling", they definitely fit with the Thief class.

It also wouldn't be the first time Thieves have been associated with both daggers and martial arts (remembering Sothe kicking copious amounts of Begnion ass in cutscenes).