From Houses to Hopes: AM Maddening Log

[haarhaarhaar]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyways, you didn't say who you picked to marry, so who did you pick?

Good point! I chose Gilbert - he's easily the character I least wanted to S-rank in the entire game, but I wanted to see which pairings I got from the rest of my army, without Byleth messing things up. Also, it kinda felt like I should choose a BL-specific character, but I wanted Dimitri and Dedue to pair up (they didn't in the end).

4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

It's hard for me to agree when Arcane Crystals are 500 gold for one, and repairing the Aura Knuckles has one of the highest price tags (3750 to repair the AK+, which ties for the highest repair price). Another issue with the Aura Knuckles is that they require A+ professor level just to craft (not that I'm saying that's hard to get), AND A rank to use. That's an issue when Coco will be risking her neck constantly in melee range (because let's be honest, that's about as smart as robbing a police station)...

My Constance hit A-rank gauntlets in Ch. 16 (I think her Reason was nearly A-rank, Faith past B, and she already had B Authority at this point). Protecting her wasn't super-hard during/prior to this. And provided you're doing at least one set of aux battles per month (which is pretty optimal anyway), you should mostly be good on finances. There's nothing else to spend gold on, really (maybe gifts?) so yeah I never really got your argument from resource scarcity.

8 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

If I have to invest that much for that kind of crap, I want RESULTS!!!

Constance beat basically everything in the game with Aura Knuckles from the moment she got it up to the end of the game without help. She still got ORKOs at endgame - I gave her extra Mag so she could get a few more enemies, but she barely needed it before then.

Pre-Aura Knuckles, Mystic Blow + Fistfaire beat every enemy Constance faced from the moment that became available (Ch. 11). I challenge you to find another magic build who is ORKOing for that period of time without significant stat booster help or favouritism in mastering classes. Even amongst physical builds, not much comes online by Ch. 11 and lasts to endgame (especially if they don't use relics). 

42 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To add onto this, depending on how the numbers fall (e.g. RNG with stats; how much cooking you do; whether you have Death Blow, Darting Blow, or both), it's entirely possible that War Cleric maintains its supremacy for offence over Assassin. That's what happened for me the last time I did that build; the few things too fast for Catherine to double just died outright from Nimble Combo (with its super-high chance to proc Crest of Charon). Maybe not War Masters? I forget. And yeah, Brawl Avo 20 is very useful... quite frankly it's good enough alone to make Mir's hatred for the class unwarranted.

Yeah my Catherine at least couldn't beat the War Masters with Nimble Combo (unless she got a crit, her crit rates weren't stellar). But even War Cleric would have quadded almost everything else (there are a couple of Grapplers she would need a couple of points of Spd to get to), and like I said in the review, access to Recover would have actually made Catherine more useful at endgame.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

It's hard for me to agree when Arcane Crystals are 500 gold for one, and repairing the Aura Knuckles has one of the highest price tags (3750 to repair the AK+, which ties for the highest repair price).

Reparing an Aura Knuckles+ costs a total of 5250 gold (3 crystals + the repair cost) for something that will last for 20+ attacks: 276 gold per attack. That's not very expensive by the standards of this game. For instance, Killer Bow+ Hunter's Volley, a bog-standard post-timeskip build, costs 1860 and lasts for five attacks = 372 per attack.

Now if you want to use the Aura Knuckles for a combat art, that will tear through them more quickly, but this is almost never necessary. Notably, it does mean that Killer Knuckles+ used with things like Fierce Iron Fist or One-Two Punch do have the higher costs you are worried about (Killer FIF is 656 gold per attack). That's assuming we're worried about lategame money at all: you can basically get as much as you need by spamming arena, so it's a matter of how much you consider that a form of grinding.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Another issue with the Aura Knuckles is that they require A+ professor level just to craft (not that I'm saying that's hard to get), AND A rank to use.

Neither of these are at all hard to get by Chapter 16, especially when talking about a character who has a boon in brawling.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

To say my hatred is unwarranted is very, very, VERY bold talk when you know full damn well that I despise most hybrid classes for being masters of none

You said it yourself: you despise the classes for what they are. It's pretty obviously a personal hangup.

War Cleric's not a master of none anyway: it (along with Magic Bow Hunter's Volley) is the absolute best source of lategame magic damage, and in particular it is pretty much the only way to both have spell access and "one-round almost anything" damage at the same time.

Humour me, incidentally: let's say you were in charge of developing/modifying Three Houses's gameplay. How (specifically) would you change War Cleric to make it useful in your view? (Assume that the class has to remain in the game roughly occupying the niche it currently does.)

[Shadow Mir]

On 1/7/2023 at 5:32 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

You said it yourself: you despise the classes for what they are. It's pretty obviously a personal hangup.

What the fuck would you expect when the only hybrids that are actually good are (semi, in Robin and Corrin's case) exclusive to the avatars??? It's like, thanks to this game and Fates, both of which made hybrid classes far inferior to the specialists, I'm actively praying they make hybrids better in Engage. It doesn't help matters that many, many units don't have the stats to make hybrid classes work, and thus are much better off in a specialized class that plays to their strengths. Nor does it that those that do have strength and magic close to each other tend to have both be low or middling.

On 1/7/2023 at 5:32 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

War Cleric's not a master of none anyway: it (along with Magic Bow Hunter's Volley) is the absolute best source of lategame magic damage, and in particular it is pretty much the only way to both have spell access and "one-round almost anything" damage at the same time.

Even so, I'd rather use a class that actually plays to a unit's strengths (like Gremory for Coco) instead of War Cleric. Whatever War Cleric offers fails to even come close to justifying the sacrifices she'd have to make for that. In particular, 3 uses of Bolting. That's an automatic dealbreaker. The real issue with it, though, is that for a DLC class, it's So. Fucking. Terrible. They failed to give it a compelling niche that would make it worth it over a more specialized class, which is something I'd have expected out of a class I had to pay money to get to use.

On 1/7/2023 at 5:32 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Humour me, incidentally: let's say you were in charge of developing/modifying Three Houses's gameplay. How (specifically) would you change War Cleric to make it useful in your view? (Assume that the class has to remain in the game roughly occupying the niche it currently does.)

Get rid of the half magic use and give it full spell uses like every other magic class (I know that it's not what's being discussed, but I'd want the same for Trickster; ffs, it's a DLC class, at least give me a compelling reason to pick it over Assassin or Swordmaster). Also, buff its stats (particularly boosts, because to be blunt, I cannot find a niche for it when its stats are generally inferior to its alternatives; if I want to punch things, Grappler's +3 speed is better, let alone War Master's +5 strength with +2 speed. And that's ignoring the former's Fierce Iron Fist and the latter's crit boost. Magic wise, it doesn't fare much better; Warlock and Gremory are much better offensively, while Bishop is much better support wise, and that's ignoring that War Monk/Cleric has a 0 modifier to magic when its unique combat art has its damage based on magic, let alone the extra spell uses the aforementioned classes get). Third, replace Unarmed Combat with Heal +10, as frankly, Unarmed Combat is pointless.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

9 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Get rid of the half magic use and give it full spell uses like every other magic class (I know that it's not what's being discussed, but I'd want the same for Trickster; ffs, it's a DLC class, at least give me a compelling reason to pick it over Assassin or Swordmaster).

Would be a legit good change. It's exceedingly silly that Trickster, who requires B Faith, gets half as many spell uses as Monk (at D Faith or Reason). Still, I will say that the margin between no spelle and half-spells is bigger than between half- and full. Having one Warp and one Bolting may be all you need in a given chapter.

9 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

if I want to punch things, Grappler's +3 speed is better, let alone War Master's +5 strength with +2 speed. And that's ignoring the former's Fierce Iron Fist and the latter's crit boost.

IMO it's not generally wrong for War Monk/Cleric to be worse than War Master. The latter requires a higher level and higher weapon ranks. Of course, for female units, the latter isn't an option (nor is Grappler). For male units, the class has the highest move of any spell user before level 30. Although, TBH, Trickster should get bumped up to 6 move as well.

9 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Third, replace Unarmed Combat with Heal +10, as frankly, Unarmed Combat is pointless.

TBH they could keep Unarmed Combat for style points (or weird, gimmicky "no buying stuff" playthroughs) while trading in "Heal" for "Healing +10". With full spell charges, having "Heal" as a skill is just redundant. Alternatively, you could sack Unarmed Combat for... IDK, White Tomefaire? Not a great skill, but it'd give stronger Nosferatu, Seraphim, etc.

On 1/7/2023 at 6:32 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

That's assuming we're worried about lategame money at all: you can basically get as much as you need by spamming arena, so it's a matter of how much you consider that a form of grinding.

Gold gets pretty irrelevant by the lategame, unless you're, like, trying to buy enough Mythril from Online Travellers to repair all the Regalia. If you're playing intelligently, though (i.e. not doing that), then you should have enough from Arena, Aux Battles, Weekly Chores, and so on. The game practically pays you to breathe.

On 1/7/2023 at 6:32 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

War Cleric's not a master of none anyway: it (along with Magic Bow Hunter's Volley) is the absolute best source of lategame magic damage, and in particular it is pretty much the only way to both have spell access and "one-round almost anything" damage at the same time.

Wouldn't Grappler and War Master technically be able to do more damage with Aura Knuckles and/or Mystic Blow? All classes have Fistfaire, while none of them have a Magic modifier. Grapplers get Fierce Iron Fist, while War Master has Crit +20. Of course, War Cleric is the strongest (only) option in this regard for female units.

[haarhaarhaar]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wouldn't Grappler and War Master technically be able to do more damage with Aura Knuckles and/or Mystic Blow? All classes have Fistfaire, while none of them have a Magic modifier. Grapplers get Fierce Iron Fist, while War Master has Crit +20. Of course, War Cleric is the strongest (only) option in this regard for female units.

Technically, yes, but there are other issues. Grappler/War Master is male-exclusive as you know, but Lorenz has a Brawling bane and Linhardt has banes in Axes and Brawling, so A-rank Gauntlets for them is painful. Hubert is CF-locked, so you don't get to spend much time with Aura Knuckles before endgame (he'll get by with Frozen Lance or if he's in a magic class pre-Aura Knuckles, but War Master might be beyond him). Which leaves Hanneman, who is neutral in Axes and Brawling but arrives late. I've genuinely considered Aura Knuckles Grappler Hanneman, but of course it'll still take a while to hit A-rank, which is up to individuals to see if they'd tolerate that. I would, with the caveat that I'd have to commit to investing well in him straightaway.

Technically, I guess Balthus and Yuri could make this work, although their magic growths/bases make FIF a little dubious without further help. They'd need around 22 Mag to kill War Masters at AM endgame assuming Mag+2, Fiendish Blow and Gloucester Knights, which Grappler Yuri hits naturally at Lvl 42, and Grappler Balthus at Lvl 47. They'd pick up the other purely physical enemies on that map with slightly less Mag atk, but wouldn't come close to killing Mortal Savants/mages with it (whereas my Constance only needed a similar amount of help to kill even the high-Res units on this map). In comparison, Grappler Hanneman with a +8 Mag battalion might also need help for enemies with Res in the 40s (like battalion-wielding Mortal Savants at endgame), but should be able to kill everything else.

As for War Master, Crit+20 is great, but building Mag atk and Crit at the same time is hard, and you'd be reliant on crits to get ORKOs against most lategame enemies. It's unlikely to be worth the effort to raise Axes for it, unless you're planning to create an Enemy Phase unit that responds with a magic counter. Still, I'd be surprised if you could get crit rates high enough to ensure reliable ORKOing on either phase. 

It should also be said that quadding is an option if you're Yuri. Provided he can evade the counter, four hits with Aura Knuckles should down everything physical even with average Mag growths (and Yuri can switch to physical offense to ORKO mages if he can quad them). He wouldn't need to deal with his Axes bane at that point - a hybrid Grappler may even be the best way to make use of his strengths, although Recover is good enough to make War Monk competition.

Having said all this, War Cleric gives at least some spell access, women get other relevant abilities, and only Marianne/Hapi have banes in Brawling among the canon female mages. It's a path of much less resistance to get a woman to ORKO with Aura Knuckles. 

On Mystic Blow - Constance is the only one who gets it early enough to get kills with it, unfortunately. Balthus/Byleth don't have the growths to make it work by the time it comes around.

Edited January 11, 2023 by haarhaarhaar

[LoneRecon400]

4 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

They'd need around 22 Mag to kill War Masters at AM endgame assuming Mag+2, Fiendish Blow and Gloucester Knights, which Grappler Yuri hits naturally at Lvl 42, and Grappler Balthus at Lvl 47.

It's actually a lot lower than that. Those War Masters have 75 hp and 18 res, so you only need 43 attack to one round them.

With Aura Gauntlets Might (2), FiF (3), Fiendish Blow (9), Leicester Dicers (16), Fistfaire (21), Magic Staff (24), and Mag +2 (26). That only makes them need 17 magic which they can get from certifying as a bishop. Yuri could even afford not to pick Mag +2 with his personal.

While they also might not be able one round mortal savant with Aura Gauntlets, they can do so with using regular silver ones. Adding 28 attack (Faire, fif, Str +2, Death B., Dicer, Silver Gaunt, personal) they'd only 30 Str to one round 63 hp and 36 def, which they do reach on average at level 40.

Overall, using Aura Gauntlets on a Grappler gives you an even better performance than a Magic bow sniper since they don't even have to have high magic or heavily reliant on a CA to pull off being a hybrid. Brawl Avoid +20 is also a good excuse to level faith, so it's not even that much of an ask. It's only needing Fiendish Blow that really holds back this setup.

Edited January 12, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

17 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

With Aura Gauntlets Might (2), FiF (3), Fiendish Blow (9), Leicester Dicers (16), Fistfaire (21), Magic Staff (24), and Mag +2 (26). That only makes them need 17 magic which they can get from certifying as a bishop. Yuri could even afford not to pick Mag +2 with his personal.

Bishop only gives 15 Magic as a class base. But if they went Warlock or Dark Bishop, they would get 17 Magic right off the bat, before extra class modifiers. B+ Reason to certify is a big ask, but they're probably already training their Reason and using spells if they went Monk and Mage for the mastery skills.

4 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

As for War Master, Crit+20 is great, but building Mag atk and Crit at the same time is hard, and you'd be reliant on crits to get ORKOs against most lategame enemies. It's unlikely to be worth the effort to raise Axes for it, unless you're planning to create an Enemy Phase unit that responds with a magic counter. Still, I'd be surprised if you could get crit rates high enough to ensure reliable ORKOing on either phase. 

TBH you can plausibly certify in War Master with just, like, C+ Axes. Master classes are pretty forgiving in their requirements. As for crit rate, even with just around 30 Crit, that's better than 50/50 odds that at least one of your punches will crit. Not necessarily something to rely on, but it does make kills that would be a longshot for War Monk much more feasible.

5 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Technically, I guess Balthus and Yuri could make this work, although their magic growths/bases make FIF a little dubious without further help. They'd need around 22 Mag to kill War Masters at AM endgame assuming Mag+2, Fiendish Blow and Gloucester Knights, which Grappler Yuri hits naturally at Lvl 42, and Grappler Balthus at Lvl 47. They'd pick up the other purely physical enemies on that map with slightly less Mag atk, but wouldn't come close to killing Mortal Savants/mages with it (whereas my Constance only needed a similar amount of help to kill even the high-Res units on this map). In comparison, Grappler Hanneman with a +8 Mag battalion might also need help for enemies with Res in the 40s (like battalion-wielding Mortal Savants at endgame), but should be able to kill everything else.

Aside from the numbers that have already been put out there, you could give them a Magic Staff for another 3 damage per hit.

[haarhaarhaar]

44 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

It's actually a lot lower than that. Those War Masters have 75 hp and 18 res, so you only need 43 attack to one round them.

Thanks for correcting on the Res stat - I had 19 in my head, but most have 18 Res except the two with the battalions (they have 20 Res).

FiF only adds +1 to Atk (although it ends up being 3 damage total because you hit three times). I assumed Gloucester Knights because a male mage would prefer the +10 hit from it over the extra +1 Atk from Dicers (since Hit+20 is out of the way and they won't get Uncanny Blow, and raising hit via boosters is harder than raising atk). 

Fair enough with the Magic Staff though, I hadn't assumed it but it definitely makes sense and they're normally going spare.

51 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

While they also might not be able one round mortal savant with Aura Gauntlets, they can do so with using regular silver ones. Adding 28 attack (Faire, fif, Str +2, Death B., Dicer, Silver Gaunt, personal) they'd only 30 Str to one round 63 hp and 36 def, which they do reach on average at level 40.

Overall, using Aura Gauntlets on a Grappler gives you an even better performance than a Magic bow sniper since they don't even have to have high magic or heavily reliant on a CA to pull off being a hybrid. Brawl Avoid +20 is also a good excuse to level faith, so it's not even that much of an ask. It's only needing Fiendish Blow that really holds back this setup.

Generally happy with this (I wasn't worried about their physical offence being able to get kills via FIF). Although it's worth pointing out that neither of their personals are guaranteed to activate.

And Brawl Avo +20 is at least worthwhile on Yuri (not sure it's worth it on Balthus?). I do like the idea of hybrid gauntlets on them, I was more poking holes in them doubling down on magic attack (as you would with Hanneman/Constance etc.)

26 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

TBH you can plausibly certify in War Master with just, like, C+ Axes. Master classes are pretty forgiving in their requirements. As for crit rate, even with just around 30 Crit, that's better than 50/50 odds that at least one of your punches will crit. Not necessarily something to rely on, but it does make kills that would be a longshot for War Monk much more feasible.

That's true - my Constance had around 30 displayed crit against most enemies at endgame, and actually got a couple of crits (although she didn't need them). Tbh, a War Master with Brawl Prowess Lvl 5, Brawl Avo+20, Brawl Crit+10, Quick Riposte, and something else (Mag+2?) running Aura Knuckles would be a pretty solid unit for both phases, although maybe not quite as reliable as other War Master builds. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 1/10/2023 at 7:02 PM, Shadow Mir said:

What the fuck would you expect when the only hybrids that are actually good are (semi, in Robin and Corrin's case) exclusive to the avatars???

I don't agree with that statement, obviously.

On 1/10/2023 at 7:02 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Even so, I'd rather use a class that actually plays to a unit's strengths (like Gremory for Coco) instead of War Cleric. Whatever War Cleric offers fails to even come close to justifying the sacrifices she'd have to make for that. In particular, 3 uses of Bolting. That's an automatic dealbreaker.

Three uses of Bolting is very cool. But Coco stops killing things in one hit as a Gremory later in the game on Maddening. You might judge the ability to one-round kills more important than three castings of Bolting, since as Shanty Pete points out, sometimes one is all you need. War Cleric also has +1 move. I'm not even arguing War Cleric is better for her, but I think it's a perfectly reasonable consideration.

On 1/10/2023 at 7:02 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Get rid of the half magic use and give it full spell uses like every other magic class (I know that it's not what's being discussed, but I'd want the same for Trickster; ffs, it's a DLC class, at least give me a compelling reason to pick it over Assassin or Swordmaster). Also, buff its stats (particularly boosts, because to be blunt, I cannot find a niche for it when its stats are generally inferior to its alternatives; if I want to punch things, Grappler's +3 speed is better, let alone War Master's +5 strength with +2 speed.

Reasonable enough (and yes, Trickster, which I actually agree with you is pretty weak, definitely needs this buff). I think giving War Cleric full magic uses more or less completely outclasses Mortal Savant and Enlightened One, but I imagine you'd suggest we buff those too. And every other magic class has either a uses x2 boost or a mount, so they'd still have a niche over War Cleric.

The stat boosts would be helpful but I rarely find them that relevant. To be perfectly honest, I don't find speed that important on male grapplers, most of whom are slow as molasses anyway (and the female ones aren't in this conversation for obvious reasons). War Master's strength + crit does matter, of course, but eh, as pointed out, it's Level 30, and you do give up spell access to get it. I don't precisely object to some slight stat alterations, but IMO War Master should definitely still have better stats than War Cleric. I already use War Cleric more than War Master as is, I'll confess; not a huge fan of the latter though I acknowledge it has uses for some builds.

16 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wouldn't Grappler and War Master technically be able to do more damage with Aura Knuckles and/or Mystic Blow? All classes have Fistfaire, while none of them have a Magic modifier. Grapplers get Fierce Iron Fist, while War Master has Crit +20. Of course, War Cleric is the strongest (only) option in this regard for female units.

You're technically right but in practice I don't think it counts for much. As @haarhaarhaar notes, most male mage candidates have some issues with this build (Hanneman's arguably your best bet and even he has a harder time accessing it than most of the women, due to joining in Chapter 8 with E brawling). But furthermore... I'd argue it's mostly moot because in most situations, a suitably strong magic attacker can basically one-round almost regardless with two hits. You're still right on a technicality, but when the number of extra one-roundings that gets opened is so small, we'd surely look instead to other things each class offers... at which point "spell access" is obviously the most weighty thing in this conversation, since by nature every candidate for this role can dish out some very respectable damage with attack spells, and most of them have some useful faith spells as well.

3 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Overall, using Aura Gauntlets on a Grappler gives you an even better performance than a Magic bow sniper since they don't even have to have high magic or heavily reliant on a CA to pull off being a hybrid. Brawl Avoid +20 is also a good excuse to level faith, so it's not even that much of an ask. It's only needing Fiendish Blow that really holds back this setup.

Hm, I don't think I agree. Being able to kill things at range 2-4 is hugely flexible compared to range 1; it's the same reason Hunter's Volley is more highly-regarded than Fierce Iron Fist for vanilla physical builds. Also, Aura Knuckles need double the arcane crystals to create in the first place (and you don't get a random one handed to you like the Chapter 14 Magic Bow), and require an A rank, so the bow build does come online earlier. The main reason, in my view, to go with Aura Knuckles is if you plan to get something out of spell access, since Hunter's Volley is limited to a class that excludes that. One-range infantry just aren't top-end performers in this game otherwise IMO. Someone like Constance being able to kill anything at range 1 and also use Rescue or Bolting (including its linked attack properties) is a superior build to someone who can only do the former.

[LoneRecon400]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Hm, I don't think I agree. Being able to kill things at range 2-4 is hugely flexible compared to range 1; it's the same reason Hunter's Volley is more highly-regarded than Fierce Iron Fist for vanilla physical builds. Also, Aura Knuckles need double the arcane crystals to create in the first place (and you don't get a random one handed to you like the Chapter 14 Magic Bow), and require an A rank, so the bow build does come online earlier. The main reason, in my view, to go with Aura Knuckles is if you plan to get something out of spell access, since Hunter's Volley is limited to a class that excludes that. One-range infantry just aren't top-end performers in this game otherwise IMO. Someone like Constance being able to kill anything at range 1 and also use Rescue or Bolting (including its linked attack properties) is a superior build to someone who can only do the former.

I'd argue grapplers are more flexible with their positioning than snipers, since they can easily be built for dodgetanking so they don't have to really worry about being placed the range of even multiple enemies. 

You could just buy Aura Gauntlets from the pagan stature. Would not need to waste arcane crystals forging it or having to wait A+ Professor Ranking that way.

The rank maybe steeper, but magic bow snipers are even worse off as they're pretty gimped until they master Hunter's Volley. Meanwhile grapplers are one rounding pretty consistently once they pick up deathblow and only really need Aura Gauntlets for fortress knights and very bulky endgame enemies.

I'd argue the opposite actually. Range setups tend to be inferior to 1 range setups simply becuase they require more investment, often fail to one round in the late game, and have no enemy phase to speak of. Having the capability of being able to engage more than enemy on player phase is more valuable than overkill offense.

Edited January 12, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[haarhaarhaar]

Interesting response @LoneRecon400. Also realised I misread your FIF calculation when I posted last, so please ignore that bit.

7 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I'd argue grapplers are more flexible with their positioning than snipers, since they can easily be built for dodgetanking so they don't have to really worry about being placed the range of even multiple enemies. 

Grapplers still need to have top-tier Speed and Brawl Avo +20 (which is competing with something like Hit+20 for that final skill slot) to have a chance at dodge tanking - and there's no battalion that gives impressive boosts to physical Atk, magical Atk and Avo at the same time, your Evasion Ring is competing with Magic Staff and so on. I wouldn't take it as a given that a grappler (especially a character built for using Aura Knuckles) is both reliably dodge tanking and getting ORKOs in the lategame. 

7 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

You could just buy Aura Gauntlets from the pagan stature. Would not need to waste arcane crystals forging it or having to wait A+ Professor Ranking that way.

I agree that I don't mind so much about the Aura Knuckles resource cost - there are ways around it if you hit A-rank gauntlets before Ch.16.

7 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

The rank maybe steeper, but magic bow snipers are even worse off as they're pretty gimped until they master Hunter's Volley. Meanwhile grapplers are one rounding pretty consistently once they pick up deathblow and only really need Aura Gauntlets for fortress knights and very bulky endgame enemies.

Not sure it's that simple. Magic Bow Snipers are still able to get kills pre-Hunter's Volley. If they have a solid CA (Waning Shot, for example), that puts Magic Bow attacks in the region of top-tier spells which is enough to get kills in the period either side of the timeskip - it shouldn't be too long after the timeskip that Hunter's Volley/FIF becomes available. On the other hand, grapplers with decent Str (ie not Hanneman) likely need to crit, quad or have an above-average Str stat to ORKO in Part 2 without FIF. My Catherine on this run started needing three hits to kill tougher enemies like Paladins once they were introduced just before timeskip, whereas even at her highest relative strength Constance was unable to ORKO using physical attack without a crit - both were in War Cleric but I think the experience is comparable. Given this, I think there isn't a huge difference between the two builds before they master their respective classes, but Sniper probably does edge it as they are more likely to be able to attack enemies and earn Class EXP that way. 

7 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I'd argue the opposite actually. Range setups tend to be inferior to 1 range setups simply becuase they require more investment, often fail to one round in the late game, and have no enemy phase to speak of. Having the capability of being able to engage more than enemy on player phase is more valuable than overkill offense.

I do think Aura Knuckles Grappler (using FIF) specifically requires more investment than Magic Bow Sniper. It'll depend on what unit you use for the grappler - Grappler Yuri is lower-investment than Grappler Hanneman, for example. But Snipers do win out - apart from the reasons above, the general utility of raising Bows (ie to pick up Hit+20) and having ranged attacks can't be undersold. 

My Magic Bow Mercedes this run was not very far at all from ORKOing everything at endgame, and only had a couple of enemies she struggled with prior to that point. Not having an Enemy Phase was a disadvantage of hers - but like I said above, there's no guarantee that Aura Knuckles Grapplers do.

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The stat boosts would be helpful but I rarely find them that relevant. To be perfectly honest, I don't find speed that important on male grapplers, most of whom are slow as molasses anyway (and the female ones aren't in this conversation for obvious reasons). War Master's strength + crit does matter, of course, but eh, as pointed out, it's Level 30, and you do give up spell access to get it. I don't precisely object to some slight stat alterations, but IMO War Master should definitely still have better stats than War Cleric. I already use War Cleric more than War Master as is, I'll confess; not a huge fan of the latter though I acknowledge it has uses for some builds.

For me, War Cleric still ranks 3rd out of the 4 DLC classes, and would probably be mid-tier on some ranking of all the classes - but my general impression of it has climbed a lot since the DLC first came out. I also agree with you that War Master is (and should be) better stats-wise. 

It's interesting that you use War Cleric more than War Master. In my head, War Master is one of (if not the?) premier physical infantry class, and the only reason not to use it is that B Axes/Brawling is too much of an ask for many units that would otherwise want it, and certain specific builds (such as Hunter's Volley) can't have it. On the other hand, only a couple of build types (female gauntlets users with meh Spd, or an attempt at hybrid Balthus/Yuri/Hanneman/Hubert) genuinely want War Cleric. What swings you towards War Cleric?

[LoneRecon400]

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Grapplers still need to have top-tier Speed and Brawl Avo +20. I wouldn't take it as a given that a grappler (especially a character built for using Aura Knuckles) is both reliably dodge tanking and getting ORKOs in the lategame.

Not sure it's that simple. Magic Bow Snipers are still able to get kills pre-Hunter's Volley. If they have a solid CA (Waning Shot, for example), that puts Magic Bow attacks in the region of top-tier spells which is enough to get kills in the period either side of the timeskip - it shouldn't be too long after the timeskip that Hunter's Volley/FIF becomes available. On the other hand, grapplers with decent Str (ie not Hanneman) likely need to crit, quad or have an above-average Str stat to ORKO in Part 2 without FIF. My Catherine on this run started needing three hits to kill tougher enemies like Paladins once they were introduced just before timeskip, whereas even at her highest relative strength Constance was unable to ORKO using physical attack without a crit - both were in War Cleric but I think the experience is comparable. Given this, I think there isn't a huge difference between the two builds before they master their respective classes, but Sniper probably does edge it as they are more likely to be able to attack enemies and earn Class EXP that way. 

I do think Aura Knuckles Grappler (using FIF) specifically requires more investment than Magic Bow Sniper. It'll depend on what unit you use for the grappler - Grappler Yuri is lower-investment than Grappler Hanneman, for example. But Snipers do win out - apart from the reasons above, the general utility of raising Bows (ie to pick up Hit+20) and having ranged attacks can't be undersold. 

My Magic Bow Mercedes this run was not very far at all from ORKOing everything at endgame, and only had a couple of enemies she struggled with prior to that point. Not having an Enemy Phase was a disadvantage of hers - but like I said above, there's no guarantee that Aura Knuckles Grapplers do.

You don't need to have high speed to dodge tank. You can hit 90 avoid with mocking bird just off of base stats alone. It's not going to have amazing enemy phase combat, but having some is better than having none.

There's not really point where regular magic bow units without HV are one rounding enemies that grapplers are not. Like you bring up ch 14 paladins, but a magic bow sniper would need 70 atk to one shot them without Hunter's Volley. That's well beyond the range of any Sniper, combat art or no.

Grapplers can also master the class much faster since they can get involved in more than one player phase action a turn.

A Hybrid grappler may cost most investment, but it's a lot more flexible in what it is able to do unlike magic bow Snipers, who only offer overkill player phase combat and are extremely reliant on getting lucky with arcane crystals to actually be of use.

Edited January 12, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

14 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

There's not really point where regular magic bow units without HV are one rounding enemies that grapplers are not. Like you bring up ch 14 paladins, but a magic bow sniper would need 70 atk to one shot them without Hunter's Volley. That's well beyond the range of any Sniper, combat art or no.

cracks knuckles

So, we need to hit 70 Attack. If we're a Sniper, we have Bowfaire (5). Assuming we've mastered Monk and Mage, we have Magic +2 (2) and Fiendish Blow (6). Let's suppose a high-power magical battalion, like Nuvelle Attendants (8). And just for fun, we're equipping a Magic Staff (3). Finally, the Magic Bow has a Might of 8 (8), in both standard and forged forms. Add it all up, and we have an offset of 32. So to reach 70 Attack, we need a raw Magic stat of 38. That's... okay, that's a lot by chapter 14. I can't imagine anyone but Lysithea or Constance hitting it by that point.

Ah, but what about magic specialists with Bow combat arts? Mercedes has Waning Shot (4), so she only has to hit 34 Magic. Same for Hanneman with Ward Arrow, or Schism Shot on Hubert. And then there's Heavy Draw (8), which means Hubert could kill with just 30 Magic. That's still a lofty goal, but we've gone from "essentially impossible" to "plausible, with the right set of tools, support, and a dash of luck".

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

For me, War Cleric still ranks 3rd out of the 4 DLC classes, and would probably be mid-tier on some ranking of all the classes - but my general impression of it has climbed a lot since the DLC first came out. I also agree with you that War Master is (and should be) better stats-wise. 

I don't think anyone here is making an argument that "War Cleric > Valyrie and/or Dark Flier". Or, conversely, that "Trickster > War Cleric". The comparisons have predominantly been against other Gauntlet infantry. ...And against Snipers, for some reason.

12 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Reasonable enough (and yes, Trickster, which I actually agree with you is pretty weak, definitely needs this buff). I think giving War Cleric full magic uses more or less completely outclasses Mortal Savant and Enlightened One, but I imagine you'd suggest we buff those too. And every other magic class has either a uses x2 boost or a mount, so they'd still have a niche over War Cleric.

Mortal Savant would still have two Faires that War Cleric doesn't, so it's doing more damage with spells, the Levin Sword(+), and Relic Swords like Thunderbrand. Also, while its requirement ranks are higher, Master Class certification is more forgiving to lower ranks than even dual-type Advanced classes. I dunno, I think they'd have enough trade-offs to be competitive with each other.

Enlightened One also Swordfaire, a pretty good mastery skill, and... it's free. You can train Teach in whatever you want, and they'll still get Enlightened One. For War Monk/Cleric, you need Faculty Training and actual combat experience. So even if it would be strictly better (and I don't think it would), I don't think that's bad, because it's also higher-effort.

13 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

You're technically right but in practice I don't think it counts for much. As @haarhaarhaar notes, most male mage candidates have some issues with this build (Hanneman's arguably your best bet and even he has a harder time accessing it than most of the women, due to joining in Chapter 8 with E brawling). But furthermore... I'd argue it's mostly moot because in most situations, a suitably strong magic attacker can basically one-round almost regardless with two hits. You're still right on a technicality, but when the number of extra one-roundings that gets opened is so small, we'd surely look instead to other things each class offers... at which point "spell access" is obviously the most weighty thing in this conversation, since by nature every candidate for this role can dish out some very respectable damage with attack spells, and most of them have some useful faith spells as well.

Most Mages aren't doubling with spells, though. Sure, you can double Armor knights, and mayyybe some Cavalry. But most other enemy types are fast enough that your "traditional Mage" units - folks like Hubert, Dorothea, Annette, Lysithea, and Constance - won't double them. You can hit more doubling thresholds eith Darting Blow and Speed +2, or with "unconventional" higher-Speed/Strength Mages (i.e. Edelgard, Ingrid, Ignatz).

True enough that spell access is a distinct advantage of War Monk over any other Fistfaire class. Even just Heal on its own is nice, but couple that with stuff like Physic, Warp, and Bolting, and it's considerable. Still, from a raw "melee combat" position, the other classes would do a bit better - or at least, have a higher ceiling. So it's all about what you want out of an individual unit.

[LoneRecon400]

20 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So, we need to hit 70 Attack. Add it all up, and we have an offset of 32. So to reach 70 Attack, we need a raw Magic stat of 38. That's... okay, that's a lot by chapter 14. I can't imagine anyone but Lysithea or Constance hitting it by that point.

Ah, but what about magic specialists with Bow combat arts? Mercedes has Waning Shot (4), so she only has to hit 34 Magic. Same for Hanneman with Ward Arrow, or Schism Shot on Hubert. And then there's Heavy Draw (8), which means Hubert could kill with just 30 Magic. That's still a lofty goal, but we've gone from "essentially impossible" to "plausible, with the right set of tools, support, and a dash of luck"

At level 30 going from monk -> mage -> 15 archer -> Sniper, Mercedes averages 25 Magic. That's a pretty far cry from the 31 she needs to hit, even with an Annette support.

Hubert, in comparison, averages only 28 Magic. And the paladins in CF are even bulkier, requiring 75 atk to one shot in chapter 14. Keep in mind he has around the same Magic as Lysithea does.

It's just unfeasible for Magic Bow Snipers to one shot promoted enemies. Unless they're a flier, enemy HP is just too massive for that.

Edited January 12, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[haarhaarhaar]

2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Like you bring up ch 14 paladins, but a magic bow sniper would need 70 atk to one shot them without Hunter's Volley. That's well beyond the range of any Sniper, combat art or no.

Ch. 14? No the paladins I was talking about were pre-timeskip (and I wasn't suggesting Mercedes would get those either, just that they were the kinds of enemies that you couldn't kill merely by doubling with gauntlets). Conveniently, I have recorded the stats on this thread for Catherine and Mercedes just prior to timeskip, and my boosted Catherine would only have gotten the kill on the Ch. 12 paladin with Vajra-Mushti and the Nuvelle battalion (although I didn't field her on that map, and the Nuvelle battalion had competition from other units). Mercedes wouldn't have killed that Paladin either, but she did get kills on that map (ie against Pegasi and anything she could double). My Catherine probably would have hit more thresholds than Mercedes on that map overall, but only because she could quad enemies.

I did also mention post-timeskip in general - Mercedes definitely got kills by herself in the post-skip chapters before she mastered Sniper, although that may have been the result of my own selection bias (ie I only sent her against things she could kill). Especially for lower-Res units like Archers and Mercenaries, she was still in OHKO territory with the Magic Bow, while my Catherine still needed three hits (although in fairness she didn't really use Vajra-Mushti as much as she could have). 

2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

You don't need to have high speed to dodge tank. You can hit 90 avoid with mocking bird just off of base stats alone. It's not going to have amazing enemy phase combat, but having some is better than having none.

I'm guessing this is with Brawl Prowess 5, Brawl Avo+20, Evasion Ring, Mockingbird's Thieves, adjutant/linked attacks and base speed? For me, none of that is coming together before Ch. 16 at the earliest and it involves delaying FIF at least a couple of chapters. And you're giving up some of the things you needed to get your units to ORKO thresholds with Aura Knuckles in the later game (maybe Spd growths will free up some of those tools but it's not a given). You may not 'need' Speed for a viable dodge tank, but you really do want it for your build. Since the build started as a way to optimise Player Phase magic attack, it seems odd now to pivot most of your resources to a half-decent Enemy Phase and lose attack power in the process. 

2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Grapplers can also master the class much faster since they can get involved in more than one player phase action a turn.

A Hybrid grappler may cost most investment, but it's a lot more flexible in what it is able to do unlike magic bow Snipers, who only offer overkill player phase combat and are extremely reliant on getting lucky with arcane crystals to actually be of use.

You're explicitly willing to buy Aura Knuckles with Renown, so I don't know why you're concerned about resources when it comes to Magic Bow users. And I'm still not convinced that any old hybrid Grappler will have an effective Enemy Phase - they might be able to tank attacks here and there, but not as a matter of course without giving up ORKO power pre-FIF. My main issue with the idea is that building for evasion and physical attack and magical attack is too much for one build - either you miss out on being effective in one/multiple areas, or the build is delayed too much to be truly good. 

Even so I do think that a hybrid Grappler is a potent build (with or without good Avo), especially post-FIF, but a mage that goes Magic Bow Sniper is less finicky (you only need to build for one specialism) and has higher range. 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't think anyone here is making an argument that "War Cleric > Valyrie and/or Dark Flier". Or, conversely, that "Trickster > War Cleric". The comparisons have predominantly been against other Gauntlet infantry. ...And against Snipers, for some reason.

Yeah that was just me thinking out loud tbh, that remark probably just confused the conversation.

Edited January 12, 2023 by haarhaarhaar

[LoneRecon400]

3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Ch. 14? No the paladins I was talking about were pre-timeskip (and I wasn't suggesting Mercedes would get those either, just that they were the kinds of enemies that you couldn't kill merely by doubling with gauntlets). Conveniently, I have recorded the stats on this thread for Catherine and Mercedes just prior to timeskip, and my boosted Catherine would only have gotten the kill on the Ch. 12 paladin with Vajra-Mushti and the Nuvelle battalion (although I didn't field her on that map, and the Nuvelle battalion had competition from other units). Mercedes wouldn't have killed that Paladin either, but she did get kills on that map (ie against Pegasi and anything she could double). My Catherine probably would have hit more thresholds than Mercedes on that map overall, but only because she could quad enemies.

I'm guessing this is with Brawl Prowess 5, Brawl Avo+20, Evasion Ring, Mockingbird's Thieves, adjutant/linked attacks and base speed? For me, none of that is coming together before Ch. 16 at the earliest and it involves delaying FIF at least a couple of chapters. And you're giving up some of the things you needed to get your units to ORKO thresholds with Aura Knuckles in the later game (maybe Spd growths will free up some of those tools but it's not a given). You may not 'need' Speed for a viable dodge tank, but you really do want it for your build. Since the build started as a way to optimise Player Phase magic attack, it seems odd now to pivot most of your resources to a half-decent Enemy Phase and lose attack power in the process. 

You're explicitly willing to buy Aura Knuckles with Renown, so I don't know why you're concerned about resources when it comes to Magic Bow users. And I'm still not convinced that any old hybrid Grappler will have an effective Enemy Phase - they might be able to tank attacks here and there, but not as a matter of course without giving up ORKO power pre-FIF. My main issue with the idea is that building for evasion and physical attack and magical attack is too much for one build - either you miss out on being effective in one/multiple areas, or the build is delayed too much to be truly good. 

Even so I do think that a hybrid Grappler is a potent build (with or without good Avo), especially post-FIF, but a mage that goes Magic Bow Sniper is less finicky (you only need to build for one specialism) and has higher range.

Those paladin in Chapter 12 have 49 hp and 24 defense. An level 24 Catherine War Monk Catherine averages around ~28 Strength. Adding +24 Atk (Death B., Empire Knights, fist faire, nimble combo, silver gauntlets), she has no trouble in being able to one round every generic on the map even without Nuvelle or the Relic. It's only really after ch 16 where every enemy is promoted do Fist users really need to start hitting more than two hits.

I've gotten that setup completed by Chapter 14. Of course, it's heavily dependent on how many paralogues are completed and whether you do aux battles. I don't use aux battles, but I do pad out the number of battles by using Impregnable Wall and have placing units right in the middle of groups of enemies .

It's not that difficult for units to keep up with magic damage even without a +7 mag atk battalion. It only takes 6 points of attack from the bishop class base (15) to be able to one round Warmasters with Aura Gauntlets and Mocking Bird. Those are some of the bulkiest enemies in the game that most units struggle to one round even with brave arts, yet they crumple pretty easily in the face of brave magic attacks.

The thing about Grappler compared to Snipers is that they're not completely dependent on a singular weapon. Aura Gauntlets are really an off weapon that is for getting rid of fortress knights and very bulky late game enemies. Most of the time they're content using steel gauntlets.

Edited January 12, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[haarhaarhaar]

52 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Those paladin in Chapter 12 have 49 hp and 24 defense. An level 24 Catherine War Monk Catherine averages around ~28 Strength. Adding +24 Atk (Death B., Empire Knights, fist faire, nimble combo, silver gauntlets), she has no trouble in being able to one round every generic on the map even without Nuvelle or the Relic. It's only really after ch 16 where every enemy is promoted do Fist users really need to start hitting more than two hits.

Yeah that's fair enough - I was calculating with Assassin (I don't think my Catherine had War Cleric at that point), and the difference in Atk power between the two is relatively significant at this stage of the game.

53 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I've gotten that setup completed by Chapter 14. Of course, it's heavily dependent on how many paralogues are completed and whether you do aux battles. I don't use aux battles, but I do pad out the number of battles by using Impregnable Wall and have placing units right in the middle of groups of enemies .

Interesting - my suspicion is that your units will see much more combat that way than mine do, even though I normally do a week of aux battles per month, and tend to do all available paralogues relatively quickly. But yeah, given that difference Ch. 14 makes sense - mastering two Advanced classes by that time has never happened for me before.

57 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

It's not that difficult for units to keep up with magic damage even without a +7 mag atk battalion. It only takes 6 points of attack from the bishop class base (15) to be able to one round Warmasters with Aura Gauntlets and Mocking Bird. Those are some of the bulkiest enemies in the game that most units struggle to one round even with brave arts, yet they crumple pretty easily in the face of brave magic attacks.

The thing about Grappler compared to Snipers is that they're not completely dependent on a singular weapon. Aura Gauntlets are really an off weapon that is for getting rid of fortress knights and very bulky late game enemies. Most of the time they're content using steel gauntlets.

Yeah I quite like this. I mean, I didn't need any convincing that a hybrid Grappler would be powerful, my issue was more stacking evasion alongside it for a decent Enemy Phase. Brawl Prowess Lv 5, Avo+20, Death Blow, Fiendish Blow, Mag+2 are presumably the required skillset to hit that War Master threshold and maintain Avo, with a Magic Staff thrown in - but that involves leaving out at least Str+2 and Hit+20, and not equipping an Evasion Ring for that attack. Against enemies like War Masters, both my Hit and Avo with that setup are a bit too low for my comfort. 

[LoneRecon400]

3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

My issue was more stacking evasion alongside it for a decent Enemy Phase. Brawl Prowess Lv 5, Avo+20, Death Blow, Fiendish Blow, Mag+2 are presumably the required skillset to hit that War Master threshold and maintain Avo, with a Magic Staff thrown in - but that involves leaving out at least Str+2 and Hit+20, and not equipping an Evasion Ring for that attack. Against enemies like War Masters, both my Hit and Avo with that setup are a bit too low for my comfort. 

Here's a practical demonstration of the offense of a hybrid grapple, while here are the dodge rates. (Didn't have Mocking Bird on hand, so had to change the battalions between the two. Still gives a good enough impression.)

While it depends on the unit, some units don't even need the magic staff to one round. The hit rates also tend to be decent due to magic hit formula.

Edited January 13, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[haarhaarhaar]

11 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Here's a practical demonstration of the offense of a hybrid grapple, while here are the dodge rates. (Didn't have Mocking Bird on hand, so had to change the battalions between the two. Still gives a good enough impression.)

While it depends on the unit, some units don't even need the magic staff to one round. The hit rates also tend to be decent due to magic hit formula.

Having adjutant Flayn specifically on Byleth removes the need for the Magic Staff on him. If we were to include the units being discussed before, Balthus can have Hilda as a pocket Mt-booster (but may still need the Magic Staff to offset the difference in his magic base/growths compared to Byleth), but Yuri can't carry around a Mt-boosting adjutant in story maps because the only one he has is Byleth.

Keeping the Magic Staff equipped on those units, even with an A-support adjutant and Mockingbird, leaves that unit's Avo in the high 70s or so for endgame (maybe less for Balthus). Meaning War Masters and the like have hit rates hovering in the 40s/early 50s, which is too high for my liking.

Hit rates on Enemy Phase are a bit sub-par even for Byleth (Balthus' will certainly be worse), although that is not as big of a concern as I originally thought, since I agree with you that a so-so Enemy Phase (provided the unit can survive) is better than no Enemy Phase. 

Also, Special Dance isn't an unreasonable buff (though surely not one you count on every turn?), and I'm also not using rallies anywhere near endgame, so that's mileage I hadn't considered. The boosts aren't super significant on their own, but 90 Avo is literally my threshold for calling a unit a dodge tank, so I definitely noticed that.

Apart from those nitpicks, it's definitely an impressive build - thanks for running the numbers and mocking it up so quickly!

[Shadow Mir]

On 1/11/2023 at 11:47 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I don't agree with that statement, obviously.

Disappointing, but expected. Personally, I find it hard to justify a hybrid class that uses both weapons and magic when most units don't have the stats to make both work. Take Camilla, for example. What the hell does tome access allow her to do that's worth noting??? Because it's hard to justify her staying in Malig Knight when she has a 10 point gap between her strength and magic AT BASE. And that's far from the only instance where the hybrid option only weakens a unit. This game is even worse for hybrids because it encourages specialization to a greater degree than most other FE games.

On 1/11/2023 at 11:47 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Three uses of Bolting is very cool. But Coco stops killing things in one hit as a Gremory later in the game on Maddening. You might judge the ability to one-round kills more important than three castings of Bolting, since as Shanty Pete points out, sometimes one is all you need. War Cleric also has +1 move. I'm not even arguing War Cleric is better for her, but I think it's a perfectly reasonable consideration.

Maybe, but the chance to remove annoying enemies from play (e.g. artillery) without needing to get close to them is still huge. Tbf, that's far more valuable than War Cleric's meager offerings (emphasis on "meager"). Also, I don't see there to be much to consider between Gremory and War Cleric - one is specialized, the other is a master of none whose only real use is a gimmick. And making said gimmick work is a Pyrrhic victory even compared to the likes of the Scout Regiment's battles in Attack on Titan. Even a blind man can see the former is obviously better.

On 1/11/2023 at 11:47 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Reasonable enough (and yes, Trickster, which I actually agree with you is pretty weak, definitely needs this buff). I think giving War Cleric full magic uses more or less completely outclasses Mortal Savant and Enlightened One, but I imagine you'd suggest we buff those too. And every other magic class has either a uses x2 boost or a mount, so they'd still have a niche over War Cleric.

Bold: And that's the problem. The only magic class I could see War Cleric as being better than is Holy Knight, which is similarly ill-conceived. Which is saying something that I consider it comparable to a class that I actively consider a joke.

I'd think Mortal Savant needs a buff anyway, because it's too much of a tweener; if I want to specialize in swords, I'm better off staying in Assassin or Swordmaster. For magic specialists, they're better off just staying on the magic path.

On 1/11/2023 at 11:47 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

The stat boosts would be helpful but I rarely find them that relevant. To be perfectly honest, I don't find speed that important on male grapplers, most of whom are slow as molasses anyway (and the female ones aren't in this conversation for obvious reasons). War Master's strength + crit does matter, of course, but eh, as pointed out, it's Level 30, and you do give up spell access to get it. I don't precisely object to some slight stat alterations, but IMO War Master should definitely still have better stats than War Cleric. I already use War Cleric more than War Master as is, I'll confess; not a huge fan of the latter though I acknowledge it has uses for some builds.

Honestly, I don't really see spell access as the game-changer you and @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate seem to treat it as, especially when one, it's only half uses, and second, by the time it's relevant, my dedicated mages are rocking double uses (aka quadruple uses compared to War Cleric). Anyway, how come you don't use War Master that much?

Edited January 13, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[haarhaarhaar]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Maybe, but the chance to remove annoying enemies from play (e.g. artillery) without needing to get close to them is still huge.

You've definitely oversold this benefit. Even with Constance's mag, at least half of the enemies with long range attacks in the game are mages, who are never getting one-shotted with Bolting. You might pick up some ballista/onager users around the timeskip, but Bolting will mostly not one-round enemies from Gronders on - even Fortress Knights are gettable but iffy at that point. Given that there are only a couple of enemies in the game with long range pre-Gronders, its anti-artillery benefits aren't actually that impressive.

As for other annoying enemies, yeah Bolting allows Constance to help out in various different places on a map, but you'll often need someone else there to get a kill. Even assuming you always use Bolting 4 times a map (I don't think I've ever done this, even when I had Gremory Manuela who couldn't contribute much else), that'll still be able to secure fewer kills than War Cleric Constance (not to mention she still has a use of Bolting for linked attacks or occasional chip). 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I don't really see spell access as the game-changer you and @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate seem to treat it as, especially when one, it's only half uses, and second, by the time it's relevant, my dedicated mages are rocking double uses (aka quadruple uses compared to War Cleric).

How often are you running out of spell charges, and what spells come under pressure? For Constance:

1. 10 Heals should be more than enough by the time War Cleric is available
2. Nosferatu is OK on Constance but it's rare that she or anyone wants to attack with it
3. Ward is extremely niche or for mining Faith/Class EXP so shouldn't need more than 3 uses (and 10 is certainly overkill)
4. Arguably, you do want more than 2 uses of a better Rescue per map, but Rescue isn't as broken as Warp so it's not a game changer (again, 6 uses is overkill)
5. Abraxas isn't bad, but is unlikely to OHKO for long or at all, assuming you even bother with it - and even in Gremory it's comparable to War Cleric's Silver Gauntlets Mystic Blow (-5 Hit, +1 range)
6. Given Constance is unlikely to double for most of the game, Training Gauntlets Pneuma Gale is straightforwardly stronger than any cast of Fire, with more uses
7. Steel Gauntlets Pneuma Gale is equivalent to a Warlock's Sagittae (which is stronger than a Gremory's Sagittae), and has more uses
8. Killer Knuckles+ Pneuma Gale is roughly better than Gremory Constance's Fimbulvetr (-2 Mt, +25 Hit, +5 Crit) - again, far more uses for Pneuma Gale
9. For Bolting, see above.
10. For Agnea's Arrow, same points as Abraxas (switch Silver Gauntlets for Vajra-Mushti) - also remember all Constance's spells lose to Aura Knuckles in damage output

For the moment though, let's grant that Bolting is a straight loss for War Cleric, as Bolting is a genuine niche that Gremory makes better use of than War Cleric, even if it's not the strongest. Let's even say Mystic Blow is pointless because of its 1-range, and grant that more uses of Abraxas and Agnea's Arrow actually makes a difference. And you want the best out of Rescue (this is actually the criticism I most appreciate). That's still 6-4 War Cleric against Gremory - and I've barely mentioned that War Cleric also still has attack spells on the odd occasion that you do need them. Even half spell charges allow your War Cleric to act like a mage where needed, while still having the ORKO power of a top build.

Edited January 13, 2023 by haarhaarhaar

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Ward is extremely niche or for mining Faith/Class EXP so shouldn't need more than 3 uses (and 10 is certainly overkill)

Honestly, I don't really consider Ward noteworthy spell wise, as Pure Water does the same thing that it does.

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

You've definitely oversold this benefit. Even with Constance's mag, at least half of the enemies with long range attacks in the game are mages, who are never getting one-shotted with Bolting. You might pick up some ballista/onager users around the timeskip, but Bolting will mostly not one-round enemies from Gronders on - even Fortress Knights are gettable but iffy at that point. Given that there are only a couple of enemies in the game with long range pre-Gronders, its anti-artillery benefits aren't actually that impressive.

As for other annoying enemies, yeah Bolting allows Constance to help out in various different places on a map, but you'll often need someone else there to get a kill. Even assuming you always use Bolting 4 times a map (I don't think I've ever done this, even when I had Gremory Manuela who couldn't contribute much else), that'll still be able to secure fewer kills than War Cleric Constance (not to mention she still has a use of Bolting for linked attacks or occasional chip). 

I primarily meant artillery weapons you can find on the maps, like the ballistae on Merceus for example. Those can be annoying since Retribution doesn't answer them. Aside from that, it also has use for aggroing enemies from a long distance. Like the finale of Azure Moon, where most of the map is the boss's strike zone starting out (except for Byleth, who they won't actively attack).

Also, tbh, I find War Cleric awkward as hell to have Constance work for thanks to gauntlet use and magic use mostly being mutually exclusive (and in general, because brawling and faith inherently clash). There are two ways to go about it, and both sound like a flat out losing trade.

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

• Given Constance is unlikely to double for most of the game, Training Gauntlets Pneuma Gale is straightforwardly stronger than any cast of Fire, with more uses
• Steel Gauntlets Pneuma Gale is equivalent to a Warlock's Sagittae (which is stronger than a Gremory's Sagittae), and has more uses
• Killer Knuckles+ Pneuma Gale is roughly better than Gremory Constance's Fimbulvetr (-2 Mt, +25 Hit, +5 Crit) - again, far more uses for Pneuma Gale

Counterpoint: Pneuma Gale is 2 range at most (and requires mastering - and staying in - War Cleric when just going into the class is a VERY hard sell), while spells can get extended range.

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

For Agnea's Arrow, same points as Abraxas (switch Silver Gauntlets for Vajra-Mushti) - also remember all Constance's spells lose to Aura Knuckles in damage output

And then you consider Aura Knuckles are 1-range locked - something that's no bueno.

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

That's still 6-4 War Cleric against Gremory - and I've barely mentioned that War Cleric also still has attack spells on the odd occasion that you do need them. Even half spell charges allow your War Cleric to act like a mage where needed, while still having the ORKO power of a top build.

I look at it being much more of a landslide against War Cleric because it's not flexible in terms of what it can do. Like the fact that its most damaging option forces her - someone who has the durability of wet toilet paper - on the chopping block that is melee range. Even for a game where I can just rewind away bad outcomes, that's an unenviable position. Long story short, this shit ain't worth it in the least. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind tradeoffs, but when I'm sacrificing something that is much more valuable than what I'm hoping to gain, which is most definitely the case with War Cleric Coco, far as I'm concerned, that's where I draw the line.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Disappointing, but expected. Personally, I find it hard to justify a hybrid class that uses both weapons and magic when most units don't have the stats to make both work. Take Camilla, for example. What the hell does tome access allow her to do that's worth noting??? Because it's hard to justify her staying in Malig Knight when she has a 10 point gap between her strength and magic AT BASE. And that's far from the only instance where the hybrid option only weakens a unit. This game is even worse for hybrids because it encourages specialization to a greater degree than most other FE games.

Completely different game. Let's not get into the weeds of Camilla's best class choice.

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Maybe, but the chance to remove annoying enemies from play (e.g. artillery) without needing to get close to them is still huge. Tbf, that's far more valuable than War Cleric's meager offerings (emphasis on "meager"). Also, I don't see there to be much to consider between Gremory and War Cleric - one is specialized, the other is a master of none whose only real use is a gimmick. And making said gimmick work is a Pyrrhic victory even compared to the likes of the Scout Regiment's battles in Attack on Titan. Even a blind man can see the former is obviously better.

War Cleric has more move than Gremory, so it can hit foes that Gremory cannot. Especially when we're talking units who don't have a siege spell in their list.

Also, if your goal is "one-shot specific targets with Bolting", then Warlock and Dark Knight might actually beat out Gremory. They're both hitting damage thresholds more easily, thanks to Black Tomefaire alongside modre modest Magic boosts. Warlock retains doubled Reason uses, but has less move; conversely, Dark Knight is more mobile, but only has full spell uses.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Counterpoint: Pneuma Gale is 2 range at most (and requires mastering - and staying in - War Cleric when just going into the class is a VERY hard sell), while spells can get extended range.

This is a very good point. Mastery combat arts necessarily come online later than most other options, and there's no "Thyrsus for Gauntlets".

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I don't really see spell access as the game-changer you and @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate seem to treat it as, especially when one, it's only half uses, and second, by the time it's relevant, my dedicated mages are rocking double uses (aka quadruple uses compared to War Cleric). Anyway, how come you don't use War Master that much?

Again - all units with doubled spell charges have poor mobility. It's a matter of trade-offs. A War Monk with full uses would still face trade-offs relative to the other Advanced/Master magic classes, but not to so severe a degree.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I look at it being much more of a landslide against War Cleric because it's not flexible in terms of what it can do. Like the fact that its most damaging option forces her - someone who has the durability of wet toilet paper - on the chopping block that is melee range.

Melee range isn't a "chopping block" if she's killing the enemy before they can counter. That's the key advantage of using a brave weapon, like Aura Knuckles. Likewise, some builds can score one-shots with Soulblade.

5 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Arguably, you do want more than 2 uses of a better Rescue per map, but Rescue isn't as broken as Warp so it's not a game changer (again, 6 uses is overkill)

IMO Rescue can be as broken as Warp, but in the context of "setting up a turn 1 bosskill". In that context, the number of charges doesn't matter nearly as much as the mobility. War Cleric beats Gremory in this regard, but loses out to Dark Flier and Dark/Holy Knight.

[haarhaarhaar]

20 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

IMO Rescue can be as broken as Warp, but in the context of "setting up a turn 1 bosskill". In that context, the number of charges doesn't matter nearly as much as the mobility. War Cleric beats Gremory in this regard, but loses out to Dark Flier and Dark/Holy Knight.

Yeah I'm actually quite a big fan of Rescue broadly speaking - and you make a fair point that the extra Mv of War Cleric probably does matter more than the magic boost from Gremory in that respect. The reason the number of Rescue uses matters to me is because Rescue does have powerful utility beyond LTCs. If you have two Rescue users in the party and you aren't aiming for a LTC, Rescue is more versatile than Warp. But even with only one Rescue user, it's still a great spell - and it has the advantage of extra charges over Warp, even if Warp does edge the direct comparison.

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Counterpoint: Pneuma Gale is 2 range at most (and requires mastering - and staying in - War Cleric when just going into the class is a VERY hard sell), while spells can get extended range.

26 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This is a very good point. Mastery combat arts necessarily come online later than most other options, and there's no "Thyrsus for Gauntlets".

Pneuma Gale can lose on range against Thyrsus/Caduceus Staff/Valkyries, sure. And I take the point that Pneuma Gale is not immediate, whereas the Thyrsus will be available well before Advanced classes. I'd also add to your points that pure mages are still in ORKO range in the chapters surrounding the timeskip (when you're unlikely to have Pneuma Gale) - so extending their range really is a significant advantage over War Cleric for that period.

But my Constance certified into War Cleric in Ch. 11 and mastered War Cleric in the Ch. 14 battle this run - Ch. 14-5 seems reasonable for picking up Pneuma Gale. After that point, War Cleric's 6 Mv + 2 range equals a Thyrsus Warlock's 4 Mv + 4 range, and the winner of that calculus is, at the very least, not obvious. After the midgame, extending your range when you can't get kills only has limited use (ie chip/linked attacks). I'd rather have a strong chance of ORKOs at lower range (which Aura Knuckles provides) than chip at higher range. 

If you can continuously ensure that a pure mage is getting kills through Part 2, then I'd happily grant a Thyrsus pure mage is better than War Cleric. For example, if I'd given my Lysithea her boosters throughout Part 2, instead of dumping them on her at endgame, then she would have been superior to Constance in every respect except use-effectiveness (because Lysithea will run out of spells faster than Constance runs out of weapon uses) and not having Bolting/Rescue. Of course, every pure mage needs significant help for those thresholds, which is why that isn't reasonable. 

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I don't really consider Ward noteworthy spell wise, as Pure Water does the same thing that it does.

Ward does grant EXP of various kinds, so it's slightly better than Pure Water. I don't actually care about the mileage of Ward either, for these purposes I just want to show that War Cleric does not really impair a unit who wants to use Ward. Because it has enough spell access to provide you with enough Ward for any given mission. On this point, War Cleric is superior to the magic sniper or hybrid grappler builds discussed above, which have no spell access. Which supports the point made above that even half-spell uses is worth something.

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I primarily meant artillery weapons you can find on the maps, like the ballistae on Merceus for example. Those can be annoying since Retribution doesn't answer them. Aside from that, it also has use for aggroing enemies from a long distance. Like the finale of Azure Moon, where most of the map is the boss's strike zone starting out (except for Byleth, who they won't actively attack).

I was including those enemies. Bolting won't kill units manning siege weapons from Gronders (ie Bernadetta/her replacement) onwards, and certainly won't kill mages either with siege tomes or manning Magic Orbs. 

Aggroing enemies from afar is a cool use of Bolting though. I can't imagine needing to do it multiple times every map, but yeah that is a benefit.

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I look at it being much more of a landslide against War Cleric because it's not flexible in terms of what it can do. Like the fact that its most damaging option forces her - someone who has the durability of wet toilet paper - on the chopping block that is melee range. Even for a game where I can just rewind away bad outcomes, that's an unenviable position. Long story short, this shit ain't worth it in the least. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind tradeoffs, but when I'm sacrificing something that is much more valuable than what I'm hoping to gain, which is most definitely the case with War Cleric Coco, far as I'm concerned, that's where I draw the line.

I know I've replied to this point before, so I'll try a different tack. How many of your units are reliably getting kills on Maddening Player Phase, and reliably surviving Enemy Phases? Unless your answer to that question is everyone you field, this is not a critical flaw of War Cleric Constance (or anyone else). 

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 1/12/2023 at 12:32 AM, LoneRecon400 said:

I'd argue grapplers are more flexible with their positioning than snipers, since they can easily be built for dodgetanking so they don't have to really worry about being placed the range of even multiple enemies. 

You could just buy Aura Gauntlets from the pagan stature. Would not need to waste arcane crystals forging it or having to wait A+ Professor Ranking that way.

The rank maybe steeper, but magic bow snipers are even worse off as they're pretty gimped until they master Hunter's Volley. Meanwhile grapplers are one rounding pretty consistently once they pick up deathblow and only really need Aura Gauntlets for fortress knights and very bulky endgame enemies.

 

These are all fair points. I've never built a magic puncher for evasion, but maybe I should. It certainly adds to the expense of the build, in that you really probably want an adjutant to pull off dodgetank numbers. Obviously, the dodging numbers also aren't very impressive before Brawl Avo +20, but that coincides perfectly with the stretch of game where there's no Hunter's Volley, so that's a wash.

 

On 1/12/2023 at 8:43 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

It's interesting that you use War Cleric more than War Master. In my head, War Master is one of (if not the?) premier physical infantry class, and the only reason not to use it is that B Axes/Brawling is too much of an ask for many units that would otherwise want it, and certain specific builds (such as Hunter's Volley) can't have it. On the other hand, only a couple of build types (female gauntlets users with meh Spd, or an attempt at hybrid Balthus/Yuri/Hanneman/Hubert) genuinely want War Cleric. What swings you towards War Cleric?

 

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyway, how come you don't use War Master that much?

 

I wouldn't consider axes/brawling too much of an ask by Level 30... but the class isn't too impressive anyway. Essentially, almost any physical unit is better off being on a mount, where they can have similar combat but get it with +2 move and Canto. The exceptions would be units with poor stats/CAs such they struggle to one-round as a mounted unit, but such units tend to struggle one-rounding as a War Master too, so are better off as a Grappler or (especially) Sniper to get a unique CA, and in Sniper's case, do so with range, which is a big advantage.

Speaking more generally, mobility/range is kind of the god stat in strategy RPGs, and Three Houses certainly plays this up. Hand me an army of bow knights and fliers using Curved Shot and I can likely beat any map, even if my stats suck. War Masters (as well as Grapplers, Swordmasters, and others) generally have very limited ability to be useful against targets more than 7 squares away, or behind obstructions, which is a pretty big weakness in my eyes. Terrain-heavy maps also do a number on them.

I use War Cleric more because (a) Brawl Avoid +20 is a very good skill, and I would argue anyone planning to specialize in brawling should pick it up... which includes all War Masters except axe-focused ones; (b) Catherine, a strong character due to her ridiculous stats, is somewhat oriented towards fist/sword classes and War Cleric is the best of that group available to her in many circumstances (c) by and large, War Clerics kill most things War Masters do, so why not have spell access as well? When we're talking about characters who struggle to have useful actions sometimes due to the aforementioned range issues, having more options helps, even if it's just Heal/Recover (never mind the ones with better faith lists). If I don't have faith in a character's ability to kill things as a War Cleric, I probably don't have significantly more faith in their ability to kill things as a War Master.

So ultimately the class looks kinda tempting with its +5 str and +20 crit, but in practice I find myself rarely using it, and I'm rarely that impressed when I do. War Cleric isn't one of my most-used classes and I'd certainly agree that it ranks #3 among the DLC classes, but yeah, it's above WM for me.

9 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Maybe, but the chance to remove annoying enemies from play (e.g. artillery) without needing to get close to them is still huge. Tbf, that's far more valuable than War Cleric's meager offerings (emphasis on "meager").

If Bolting is one-shotting enemies then yes, you obviously want more uses of it, because "one-hit kill at range 10+" is almost the best non-gambit action possible in this game. But it stops doing that pretty quickly in my experience on Maddening. At that point on it's still a very cool tool (it can aggro enemies, or it can combine with other long-range fire for an easy 2HKO), and again, I'm not gonna argue if you want to keep more uses of it, but surely you understand why someone might want to trade some uses to gain one-round-kill damage.

 

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, tbh, I find War Cleric awkward as hell to have Constance work for thanks to gauntlet use and magic use mostly being mutually exclusive (and in general, because brawling and faith inherently clash).

It's true that you can't build both Brawling and Faith in the same battle prior to Level 20 (well, except as a Commoner/Noble, no thanks), but in practice that's not much of a loss because you can't build two skills on the same action regardless, unless one of them is a movement-type skill. I'd generally suggest just training brawling outside of battle while you get reason/faith in-battle, since mages are so much more effective at levels 5-19 than punchers are, particularly high-magic ones (and we want to get Mag+2 and Fiendish Blow anyway).

On my current run I'm doing War Cleric Mercedes thanks to randomly rolled skill builds, and she managed to hit B+ brawling before the end of Chapter 10 despite never swinging a punch once. Constance, with the same attention, would be at A. Mercedes is also at B+ faith, so Constance (who is neutral) would likely be at B. Many other War Clerics can afford to short-change faith more, stopping at C if that's their last useful skill (Hanneman, Dorothea, Annette, Hubert). I think you do have a slight tendency to underestimating the amount of skill exp you can get in this game, even without grinding like aux fights or dragging out fights with Impregnable Wall etc. I'll grant this is with the sauna, but I'm a bit more okay with assuming that in a conversation where DLC is being inherently assumed.

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Counterpoint: Pneuma Gale is 2 range at most, while spells can get extended range.

This is a good point but it is somewhat offset by War Cleric having +1 move on Gremory, and +2 on Warlock (which I assume is your preferred class at Level 20-29?). The calculus likely depends a bit on how many other units you are using who will want to hold Thyrsus/Caduceus. If this character can realistically afford to hold Thyrsus all the time then yeah War Cleric probably isn't the best use of their talents. But you will likely have others, possibly several.