Mono-Weapon Classes. Why are they kinda lame?

[AnonymousSpeed]

As I near the end of my first play-through, I think it's time to reflect on some of its design decisions, namely how weak (by comparison) the mono-weapon classes are in this game. This is normally the case in other games, but it's very obvious here for reason given below.

Spoiler

Griffin Knight is a direct statistical upgrade to Swordmaster that flies, and Warrior is basically a straight upgrade from Berserker. At least in other games, Swordmasters would be among the fastest classes.

The S-rank weapons aren't very prominent or useful and there are no weapon-rank bonuses, so their S-ranks don't really help you compared to A-ranks.

Berserker and Swordmaster don't even have crit boosts, which would've been fairly easy to implement given how promoted class skills work in this game.

Due to the flexibility of the promotion system, there's not much limitation on changing people out of these classes into better ones.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone recommend Berserker, Halberdier, Swordmaster, or Sniper over other classes.

This obviously excludes Thieves, who are actually pretty good.

I do have a theory about this, but it's not very well supported outside of intuition. I think it might be because they're mono-weapon that they're so underwhelming. Classes like Warrior or Hero, because they require more proficiencies, are "harder" to get into and therefore should be better. To get the best possible Boucheron, you don't merely promote him, you also need to acquire Bow proficiency so you can promote him into a good class.

But that's just a theory. A GAME-

[samthedigital]

I disagree somewhat with your assessment of Snipers and Thieves. The covert tag and bow access make Lyn sniping useful on occasion. It's not a lot, but it's something. I'm also not as high on the Thief class because of the low str base. It might be the fact that units like Yunaka struggle with damage as the game goes on more than the class itself, but it's something that I'd have to experiment with more.

Edited March 19, 2023 by samthedigital

[Von Ithipathachai]

3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I do have a theory about this, but it's not very well supported outside of intuition. I think it might be because they're mono-weapon that they're so underwhelming. Classes like Warrior or Hero, because they require more proficiencies, are "harder" to get into and therefore should be better. To get the best possible Boucheron, you don't merely promote him, you also need to acquire Bow proficiency so you can promote him into a good class.

This would be easier to believe were it not for the fact that certain characters have explicit advantages over others in terms of the number of proficiencies they start with, e.g. Anna already having both the Axe and Bow Proficiencies needed for Warrior while Boucheron is stuck in Berserker without an Emblem to train with.

[JimmyBeans]

I do miss weapon rank bonuses and other things that you mentioned. Because looking back, I think what Vander really needed was for his S rank axes to do literally anything for him to set him apart in a way. Also, it is weird to see paladins be a mono-weapon class in this game.

[AnonymousSpeed]

27 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

I do miss weapon rank bonuses and other things that you mentioned. Because looking back, I think what Vander really needed was for his S rank axes to do literally anything for him to set him apart in a way. Also, it is weird to see paladins be a mono-weapon class in this game.

It really is, though maybe not...too weird? Off, but workable. At least Great Knight kept multiple weapon types.

Vander would also really benefit from having a personal skill that wasn't cheeks. Then again, that's true of most of the cast.

3 hours ago, samthedigital said:

I disagree somewhat with your assessment of Snipers and Thieves. The covert tag and bow access make Lyn sniping useful on occasion. It's not a lot, but it's something. I'm also not as high on the Thief class because of the low str base. It might be the fact that units like Yunaka struggle with damage as the game goes on more than the class itself, but it's something that I'd have to experiment with more.

I don't generally think covert benefits sniper that much. The extra range is good, but you probably won't need an extra bow for the move, especially once you have Mulagir. Maybe having Silver Bow Astra Storm before then could be nice, though.

As for daggers, use cool and good units like Zelkov and use the absurd +5 Silver Dagger forge. Might be a little pricey but it works wonders.

59 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

This would be easier to believe were it not for the fact that certain characters have explicit advantages over others in terms of the number of proficiencies they start with, e.g. Anna already having both the Axe and Bow Proficiencies needed for Warrior while Boucheron is stuck in Berserker without an Emblem to train with.

Huh, never noticed that with Anna. She's still kinda cheeks, though.

How many other non-promoted, non-Qi Adept units start with multiple proficiencies?

[Florete]

Swordmaster and Berserker I agree on. These classes are pretty much strictly worse than alternatives.

Sniper is largely worse than alternatives, but still has potential value in its class skill and being covert. Not something I would necessarily recommend, but it's a cut above swordmaster and berserker.

Halberdier can be a nice class, though. I think it's not commonly used or recommended because no one naturally comes in it, so not many people actually have experience with it. But Pincer Attack opens up some nice build options for certain units, it's statistically competitive with other options, and Brionac is actually a decent S rank weapon on account of being 1-2 range. I've got Goldmary as a Halberdier in my current draft run and it's allowing her to do stuff she probably couldn't otherwise.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Florete

[samthedigital]

3 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't generally think covert benefits sniper that much. The extra range is good, but you probably won't need an extra bow for the move, especially once you have Mulagir. Maybe having Silver Bow Astra Storm before then could be nice, though.

It really is just for the range to take care of an enemy while everyone else is going for the boss or to otherwise aggro a specific enemy. It's a niche that has some use especially if you don't want to dump the bond shards on a unit who isn't heavily invested in Lyn. It's not something I would suggest for general use to be sure, but it's something.

12 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

As for daggers, use cool and good units like Zelkov and use the absurd +5 Silver Dagger forge. Might be a little pricey but it works wonders.

The forge is only really making up for the fact that Thieves and Wolf Knights don't have a great strength base. I would rather go Wolf Knight if I want to use daggers though because of the move.

[AnonymousSpeed]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

It really is just for the range to take care of an enemy while everyone else is going for the boss or to otherwise aggro a specific enemy. It's a niche that has some use especially if you don't want to dump the bond shards on a unit who isn't heavily invested in Lyn. It's not something I would suggest for general use to be sure, but it's something.

The forge is only really making up for the fact that Thieves and Wolf Knights don't have a great strength base. I would rather go Wolf Knight if I want to use daggers though because of the move.

Drawing aggro is very useful, but thieves also get the same range with the Killer Bow, so it's merely that they're covert which is needed rather than the fact that they're covert and have bow access.

Thieves don't have a great strength base, but Zelkov does. Wolf Knight isn't a bad class, but thief is at not strictly or near-strictly worse than it.

1 hour ago, Florete said:

Halberdier can be a nice class, though. I think it's not commonly used or recommended because no one naturally comes in it, so not many people actually have experience with it.

Possibly. I thought of running Clanne as one next time, since I haven't used any so far. Kinda weird that they brought Soldier back as a class and then just didn't capitalize on it.

[samthedigital]

3 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Wolf Knight isn't a bad class, but thief is at not strictly or near-strictly worse than it.

I wouldn't say so.

Quote

Drawing aggro is very useful, but thieves also get the same range with the Killer Bow

You also don't get access to a forged Silver bow before Mercurius as mentioned; it's not something I would dedicate bond points to.

Edited March 20, 2023 by samthedigital

[Armchair General]

I'm pretty sure that they've just included them just so they can pad out the class roster. In fact, the only thing that actually tries to be different is the Fighters that you see early on. Plus, it's kind of chilling that an Berserker doesn't get any bonuses to their crit rate; in fact, all you're getting is an maximum of 3 points of  Str over an Warrior with an Berserker. And Smash+ instead of dealing 50% more damage to disarmed opponents... Almost had me thinking that they had the skills mixed up, at one point

Edited March 20, 2023 by Armchair General

[Shadow Mir]

I'd agree that Snipers are pretty good too. Their class skill helps too; while it isn't great, I'd consider it miles better than "get a hit boost if you didn't move before attacking" (my reaction to this is "what the hell?" and "yare yare daze").

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Drawing aggro is very useful, but thieves also get the same range with the Killer Bow, so it's merely that they're covert which is needed rather than the fact that they're covert and have bow access.

I'd prolly want Lyn on a sniper anyway so I can use Astra Storm with a bow with some actual oomph behind it. Especially on Maddening.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Armchair General]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd consider it miles better than "get a hit boost if you didn't move before attacking" (my reaction to this is "what the hell?" and "yare yare daze").

In all fairness, I think it's kind of an extremely situational skill unless you're planning for it or your being rushed by quite an few enemies. I think it was meant to offset the fact that Bow Knights have an slightly worse combination of max stats when it comes to accuracy