So...let's talk tiers.

[Seph]

That's not the point. The point is, lol NM./

And even if it's so easy a tier list must show the path of efficiency.

So I guess we REALLY don't need physic then. Mirite?

To survive, you got me there. For efficiency purposes? Yes.

It makes the game more efficient in the later on, if you use Physic NOT for training purposes. In like 25 chapters, you'll obviously need Physic at least three or four times. Using that for efficiency purposes is far better than using it for training purposes. You can charge more confidently when you have Physic.

care to actually explain WHY this one move, two move gap is so epic? ANd you're still ignoring my point about enemy units slowing fighters down.

Checking your previous post, it seems you edited it after I posted, so pray tell why is it my fault that I'm ignoring it?

That's true, but even then Merric will only gain a single heal or two which is just not enough. Your units will constantly be rushing. You can't stay back and heal. You have to rush.

Not saying Merric won't be getting heals, saying it's not enough.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Julius

[Lord Raven]

By the way, you should know that I just checked chapter 9, and 11 spd...is doubling everything there. Boss included.

But why is Kashim like a tier below Darros (two slots below seems fine really) even though his offense is pretty much just as good? If it's purely the defense, then a 4 point lead in HP really isn't that significant.

[Dat Nick]

But why is Kashim like a tier below Darros (two slots below seems fine really) even though his offense is pretty much just as good? If it's purely the defense, then a 4 point lead in HP really isn't that significant.

it is combined with a 4 def lead

In like 25 chapters, you'll obviously need Physic at least three or four times.

and you get more later on, and he doesn't have to burn through the whole staff

That's true, but even then Merric will only gain a single heal or two which is just not enough.

Do you do ANYTHING but exaggerate?

Your units will constantly be rushing.

except when....

A: An enemy unit is blocking their way

B: They have to deal with enemy units around them, not sending them very far at all

C: They run low on HP and need to run back to your healers

[Seph]

Well fucking done, ignoring most of my post.

and you get more later on, and he doesn't have to burn through the whole staff

You only get 2.. Chapter 6 and 10. That's not enough to last the whole fucking game.

So, that's out. You can't use Physic for training purposes.

Do you do ANYTHING but exaggerate?

You'll get slowed down, alright. Then you clear the enemy units at that part, and you start charging again. In NM, it's going to take a very short time. Merric won't be getting many heals at all, thanks to that shitty move of his. He needs to catch up THEN heal.

except when....

A: An enemy unit is blocking their way

B: They have to deal with enemy units around them, not sending them very far at all

C: They run low on HP and need to run back to your healers

A: Low move, need to catch up, not enough time to heal because of said low move, because you start charging again.

B: The only time but this is no where near as common. And seeing in NM it's very easy to avoid..

C: You can use a goddamn Vulnerary and be more useful in charging.

[Lord Raven]

it is combined with a 4 def lead

And this still separates the two by an entire tier when their offense is practically the same?

Roger and Caesar are about similar statistically; Caesar has a slight defense and 20% HP whereas Roger has like 15% more strength. Roger's bases as a whole are just as good as Caesar's with a huge lead in Speed. They should be ranked around the same place as well.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[dondon151]

In Julius's defense, 1 move does make a difference in the ranking of every FEGBA armor knight on their respective tier lists. I disagree on Merric not healing that much, though.

[Seph]

In ranking of the harder modes, you can't charge as much, so move is not significant.

In normal mode, you will be cruising through enemies, and Merric has to constantly catch up. Can you agree with this?

[Dat Nick]

Roger and Caesar are about similar statistically; Caesar has a slight defense and 20% HP whereas Roger has like 15% more strength. Roger's bases as a whole are just as good as Caesar's with a huge lead in Speed. They should be ranked around the same place as well.

except for the fact that Caesar can actually be a half decent fighter WITHOUT murdering his durability. lol 0% def base growth. Roger sucks as anything BUT armor/Hunter. And even then he sucks.

and no, 10% is not slight, and no, Roger isn't getting Merc. Even if there WASN'T ten billion people who want the class.

You'll get slowed down, alright. Then you clear the enemy units at that part, and you start charging again. In NM, it's going to take a very short time. Merric won't be getting many heals at all, thanks to that shitty move of his. He needs to catch up THEN heal.

You said "one or two heals per chapter." Do you HONESTLY expect anybody to buy this?

Well fucking done, ignoring most of my post.

Hm? I ignored nothing.

You only get 2.. Chapter 6 and 10. That's not enough to last the whole fucking game.

So, that's out. You can't use Physic for training purposes.

No, it's not out. I never needed the thing, ever. You are not going to need 20 uses of physic, period. Also, Reserve.

In NM, it's going to take a very short time.

it takes just as long. A 1 HP roadblock is still a roadblock.

And seeing in NM it's very easy to avoid..

it would be...if the canto skill existed.

You can use a goddamn Vulnerary and be more useful in charging.

You can't distribute 3 vulnerarys on everybody.

[Lord Raven]

except for the fact that Caesar can actually be a half decent fighter WITHOUT murdering his durability. lol 0% def base growth. Roger sucks as anything BUT armor/Hunter. And even then he sucks.

Actually, ignore that earlier point considering that I got Caesar's Skill and Speed mixed up. haha

(10% is relatively slight; it's +3 in the long run (+1 in the short/intermediate term and +2 in a bit longer period of time) although caesar has a load more HP)

EDIT: "He's not getting Merc" is completely bullshit and I won't try to argue it again because it should be a pretty basic principle that giving x person the Mercenary class involves an opportunity cost and everyone should be punished equally for having you make one, as opposed to the crappier units getting the shit thrown on them and sucking the upper tier's dicks. You claim you don't say this, but you are and you are completely unable to admit it. The tier list then becomes biased in favor of upper tier units (when a tier should regard the fact that the upper tiers exist, but not use it at all as a fact). In fact, you don't seem to flinch giving Darros the Mercenary class even though Wolf and Sedgar basically come in a chapter or two after you can reclass...

And because of that I should leave this topic, but I probably won't. We'll see where this takes me.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[slax]

I was using Wendell's tactical flexibility as an example of what Merric will be able to do, except Merric will pull it off much better on NM.

But worse everywhere else. Merric will still get fairly good Res, and this is NM, where Mages are the most fail overall, so he's definitely going to make use of his Res.

Better magic class for class, actually.

Which he can? He'll be able to counter attack frequently because of having actual durability to do so.

Stop saying "he can" and start backing it up with some facts. Why "can he"? I've said why he can't (stuff all defence, meaning he'll be taking huge damage, and his HP will only save him from one or two attacks.)

Merric is safely taking hits too. He'll be taking more damage, yes, but he's not going to die from NM's enemies, and a secondary healer (which isn't bad to have) can just use a single staff use to recover most of his HP.

Using two healers is a good idea, don't get me wrong, but if you do use two healers, it makes no sense for them to be top tier since they lose the individual advantages they had before. -ie: If you're using Merric an another healer, either you're babying the second healer or Merric won't grow as fast as he would otherwise, either way meaning Merric doesn't have a comparative advantage over other units. So using that argument counters your own argument about Merric's exp pool, especially given the limited number of staves.

And I can promote Merric as early as I want and immediately solve his problems of movement and inability to attack. Any unit can promote early and have tactical benefits, especially since the endgame level is 20/10 anyway.

Not truly a valid analogy, Merric at 20/10 will have 10 Magic (As a curate), while 20/20 will have 13, that's a 30% growth over 10 levels, while 20/10 frey will have ~19 strength, going up to 22, an increase of ~15%, barely half the loss of Merric. Apply that to all stats and you get a grossly inferior Merric relatively. The percentage drop in stats for merric is much greater than the percentage drop for Frey. 1 skill is more valuable to someone with 10 skill than it is to someone with 20.

You've missed probably every single post I've made where I say she should move up. You need to speak to Beserker Blader on this, not me.

I have not missed them, the thing is, you haven't actually revised the list at all, and if you're not going to ask him to revise the list, then why are you arguing with me? I'm not interested in arguing for the sake of arguing, I'm arguing for the sake of building a correct tier list, or at least a logically consistent one, as the one on the first page (and the reviesed one on P14) are both terribly inconsistent logically. Meh. I'll talk to him then, not you.

@ BerserkerBlader, FE3player and I both agree that Lena is too low on the original tier list, and must be moved, go change it.

Edited for typos

Edited January 2, 2009 by slax

[Sylvan]

EDIT: "He's not getting Merc" is completely bullshit and I won't try to argue it again because it should be a pretty basic principle that giving x person the Mercenary class involves an opportunity cost and everyone should be punished equally for having you make one, as opposed to the crappier units getting the shit thrown on them and sucking the upper tier's dicks. You claim you don't say this, but you are and you are completely unable to admit it. The tier list then becomes biased in favor of upper tier units (when a tier should regard the fact that the upper tiers exist, but not use it at all as a fact). In fact, you don't seem to flinch giving Darros the Mercenary class even though Wolf and Sedgar basically come in a chapter or two after you can reclass...

And because of that I should leave this topic, but I probably won't. We'll see where this takes me.

About 5 people have all tried to tell him the same thing.

[Rodykitty]

Stop saying "he can" and start backing it up with some facts. Why "can he"? I've said why he can't (stuff all defence, meaning he'll be taking huge damage, and his HP will only save him from one or two attacks.

One or two attacks... From Silvers on H5 mode. He's not getting doubled on NM, and Irons and Steels are far more common for enemies to use than Silver on NM.

Not truly a valid analogy, Merric at 20/10 will have 10 Magic (As a curate), while 20/20 will have 13, that's a 30% growth over 10 levels, while 20/10 frey will

have ~19 strength, going up to 22, an increase of ~15%, barely half the loss of Merric. Apply that to all stats and you get a grossly inferior Merric relatively. The percentage drop in stats for merric is much greater than the percentage drop for Frey. 1 magic is more valuable to someone with 10 skill than it is to someone with 20.

Enemies barely have any Res and crappy HP on NM. He should be fine, and if you prefer having more Mag, there is still the option of alternating classes every chapter to get both sped up leveling up and Mag growth increase.

Using two healers is a good idea, don't get me wrong, but if you do use two healers, it makes no sense for them to be top tier since they lose the individual advantages they had before. -ie: If you're using Merric an another healer, either you're babying the second healer or Merric won't grow as fast as he would otherwise, either way meaning Merric doesn't have a comparative advantage over other units. So using that argument counters your own argument about Merric's exp pool, especially given the limited number of staves.

Using two healers mean that Merric will go from gaining EXP quickly to gaining EXP quickly. Healers only gain EXP once per turn anyway, so if you want to keep leveling them up, keep having them healed damaged units, and they gain EXP healing each other as well.

Staves aren't limited either. It's really easy to buy them, and you'll only need to buy as you need.

[Dat Nick]

ou claim you don't say this, but you are and you are completely unable to admit it.

Please get the fick out of here and go back to special ed, because I'm getting sick of having to say this, for what, the millionth time?

THERE. IS. NO. ASSUMING. LOWER. TIER. UNITS. WILL. NOT. BE. PLAYED. THERE. IS. NO. FAVORITISM. FOR. UPPER. TIERS.

Look at all the people who want merc. More than a DOZEN, and that's barley an exaggeration. You have room for ONE if you don't class change Ogma. Some are using it a LOT more efficently than others. Some are DEPENDING on it to be usable. Claiming there's no sort of natural selection here is ridiculous. If one mediocre unit gets merc, it pisses off about a third of the cast. You want to pretend this is irrelevant? Go riiiight ahead, but it's not irrelevant no matter how much you say it is. Here is a list of EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER WHO WANTS OR MAY CONSIDER MERC:

Sedgar

Wolf

Ogma

Barst

Bord

Daros

Castor

Caesar

Ymir

Dolph

Astram

Samson

I probably missed some, too.

I'm sorry, but this many characters fighting over a single class is NOT irrelevant, period.

[Rodykitty]

The only answer to this is that every Merc that wants Merc will need to be penalized for taking away a slot from other Mercs.

Ex: As awesome as Sedgar is, he could potentially take away the ability for Darros to be a viable unit.

[Sylvan]

It's not claiming there is "no" natural selection. Just that, if there are two characters that make equal mercs, you can't say they are not as good as sedgar, so they can't be used. It has to be taken into consideration that they can be mercs, and that it is possible to play without sedgar. And in that circumstance, one low tier character would be above the other low tier character. Of course both low tier characters are penalised in relation to the entire list for blocking sedgar, but not in relation to each other. If two characters are vying for a merc position, then bringing in a third character that outranks both only means that the third is higher than the others, not that the others are lower than each other.

Lets say, Astram and Samson. If I want a hero, Astram makes the better one due to his better stats. So, astram should be higher than Samson. However, Since using Astram blocks Sedgar, Astram should be above Samson.

See the problem there? That logic makes no sense. It's not logic even. But that's what has been said. And that's why people are objecting.

If Astram is better than Samson, then he should be above Samson. Sedgar has nothing to do with it. "Blocking" Sedgar applies equally to both units, so therefore, both are penalised equally, so it makes no impact on either in relation to the other.

[Rodykitty]

Here's the way I see it.

Everyone gets penalized for taking Merc. It doesn't matter who it is, because that character may block someone from becoming viable, or may block someone from being in their best class.

Now, it gets a bit less simple than that, but here's why.

Units that start out as Merc will be penalized less, because they create slots to allow others to become Merc.

Units that are still viable without being Merc will be penalized less on top of that, because they allow units that absolutely need to be Merc to become them.

[Lord Raven]

B2BD said stuff to the extent of "Roger whoever won't be getting Merc anyway." Why won't they be getting Merc? In fact, why is this even relevant to the tier list? In a debate, sure, because we're not judging them and a fair amount of bias needs to be put in to make your points. In a tier list, it's completely different.

Judge them based on how well they can do as a Merc, but penalize them at the same time for taking away a potential class for the others to use; don't assume they'll never get Merc. etc etc

Merc probably isn't the best option for Castor Oil, but for Darros, it's the ONLY option.

Is another point I'm referencing. If I'm interpreting it correctly, then it should be saying that Darros is only decent as a Mercenary. Which is a point against him because of your latter point (at least, how I believe it should be viewed; if units are viable without Merc, then should be penalized equally but also praised because they're good enough that they don't need it).

(I view this pretty much as similar to what FE3 Player is saying).

The "lower tiers are sucking upper tiers' dicks" part was also in reference to the Harken/Karel scenario, where Karel supposedly "harms the team" by not allowing you to recruit Harken. He doesn't harm the team considering neither are guaranteed use; he's disallowing another unit from existing. Harken is doing the same, they should receive equal punishment; quality of either unit should have little to do with it especially since the argument is irrelevant in the judging of a tier list.

If (and I heavily doubt this will happen, by the way), hypothetically, we find out something weird about Harken that puts him around Karel's spot, then we nullify the fact that Karel is pushed down because he's preventing a superior unit from existing; it's these changes that should make situations like this a punishment for both instead of one or neither. Because then he's no longer blocking out a superior unit, he's just blocking out another unit. Even if it places Harken significantly below Karel's spot nothing should change about Karel, because the main point is they're blocking out another unit.

Sylvan's post... is also a perfect summation.

And I'd heavily appreciate it if you'd calm down. It's just a video game; we've both been repeating a lot of points, and at the risk of sounding smug I don't see why you can't keep as calm a head as I've been doing during the entire thing about the debate.

And one more thing... I'm still waiting to hear what you think especially since me, FE3 Player, Sylvan, and slax are basically saying what I'm saying and disagree with your methods of judging the list.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[slax]

Here's the way I see it.

Everyone gets penalized for taking Merc. It doesn't matter who it is, because that character may block someone from becoming viable, or may block someone from being in their best class.

Now, it gets a bit less simple than that, but here's why.

Units that start out as Merc will be penalized less, because they create slots to allow others to become Merc.

Units that are still viable without being Merc will be penalized less on top of that, because they allow units that absolutely need to be Merc to become them.

I agree with this. The need to become a Merc is a great penalty, as it basically consumes a slot. Being a default merc does not use up a slot, so they cannot be penalised. This logic should thus be applied to each character in the list individually.

What has been done that shouldn't be done is saying that "x makes a better merc so should be above y" Because all that will determine is who is #1, not #2 or #3. This is because #2 will be inferior to #1 (x), but a,b,c,z, etc, cannot be compared to y, since you can't make both a merc, since both will take away from x. It's then you have to remember to not assume class change (to merc) for either character, and base on individual merit instead.

Oh btw, FE3player, I'm not responding to your previous reply since I'm waiting for Berserker to make a revised tier list, or, you'no, reply to me at all.

[Rodykitty]

Being a default merc does not use up a slot, so they cannot be penalised.

They are still capable of taking the slot away from others, so they are penalized less.

What has been done that shouldn't be done is saying that "x makes a better merc so should be above y" Because all that will determine is who is #1, not #2 or #3. This is because #2 will be inferior to #1 (x), but a,b,c,z, etc, cannot be compared to y, since you can't make both a merc, since both will take away from x. It's then you have to remember to not assume class change (to merc) for either character, and base on individual merit instead.

Merc is some units' best class, and is the bulk of their tier position. Penalizing every Merc becomes necessary.

[slax]

They are still capable of taking the slot away from others, so they are penalized less.

Merc is some units' best class, and is the bulk of their tier position. Penalizing every Merc becomes necessary.

Why are you arguing against me when I agreed with you? XD

Anyway, yeah, first part of quote = typo, I meant cannot be penalised for being a merc, (given all other classes are taken), as they do not use up a slot, or something along those lines. XD

As you may notice that above post wasn't edited for typos, I was in a rush XD

and I don't follow your reply to the second quote, I said you can't compare all units to the one best unit, as that will result in only one spot being taken, the top spot, so they must be judged individually to generate a list. Part of individual judging is the class's opportunity costs, so of course they would have to still penalised.

[Rodykitty]

Why are you arguing against me when I agreed with you? XD

Because there's a subtle difference.

Anyway, yeah, first part of quote = typo, I meant cannot be penalised for being a merc, (given all other classes are taken), as they do not use up a slot, or something along those lines. XD

Actually no, they do take up a slot. They do add slots, but they have to class change to truly make empty slots.

[slax]

Because there's a subtle difference.

Actually no, they do take up a slot. They do add slots, but they have to class change to truly make empty slots.

They add a slot, thus they use up no slot by being default, but can add a new one if there is a class avaliable for them to transfer into, which is the conditional I put into the second reply, but yeah, still no biggie.

[Rodykitty]

but can add a new one if there is a class avaliable for them to transfer into, which is the conditional I put into the second reply, but yeah, still no biggie.

You see... That's an IF.

Also, if they have to give up their best class (Merc) for someone else, then that is still a negative.

So they're getting penalized. Just not as much.

Edited January 3, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Dat Nick]

And I'd heavily appreciate it if you'd calm down. It's just a video game; we've both been repeating a lot of points, and at the risk of sounding smug I don't see why you can't keep as calm a head as I've been doing during the entire thing about the debate.

Whose fault is it you insist on being a retard and ignore what I tell you after I say it about 3000 times? Don't want me to call you a retard? Don't act like one.

Oh btw, FE3player, I'm not responding to your previous reply since I'm waiting for Berserker to make a revised tier list, or, you'no, reply to me at all.

Captain retardius has blown things pretty heavily out of proportion, so if you've said anything, I've probably forgotten it by now. Sorry about that. Now, what do you want me to change?

Edited January 4, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Florete]

Whose fault is it you insist on being a retard and ignore what I tell you after I say it about 3000 times? Don't want me to call you a retard? Don't act like one.

Captain retardius has blown things pretty heavily out of proportion, so if you've said anything, I've probably forgotten it by now. Sorry about that. Now, what do you want me to change?

I haven't read this entire topic, but from what I've seen of Nathan Graves' posts, I doubt he said anything to warrant being called a retard. Even so, flaming is never the option you should resort to. And he's right when he says it's just a game, so calm down.