So...let's talk tiers.

[grandjackal]

Vyland needs a C in Axes before he can use the Hammer. Not likely unless you give him arms scrolls.

Ok...Well that would hamper him a bit...Guess he'll be a paladin or swordmaster for his armorslaying needs. He could go mage a bit, but if he waited, he'd be doing poor damage, but in exchange with the bit of magic he gets, he could use levin swords, but this is grasping at this point.

[Lord Raven]

(Oh yeah, Barst probably can't use Hammers until Chapter 6 or 7 or something because he starts with a D)

Edited January 27, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[grandjackal]

(Oh yeah, Barst probably can't use Hammers until Chapter 6 or 7 or something because he starts with a D)

Chapter 6 or 7...aren't those the hardin chapter and the ricardo in prison chapter? Because if it is, that's when you start actually finding it useful...

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Chapter 6 is in Aurelis castle (after getting Hardin) which has a good number of armors and General/AK bosses start becoming common.

[Rodykitty]

- Vyland doesn't have good strength growth anyways, He is one of the few physical guys who wouldn't care switching to mage.

Mage Vyland isn't a chapter specific strategy. It's a whole game dedication to him being Mage since class swapped Mages from physical units absolutely depend on their Magic growth.

Vyland's only reason for class adapting is because he sucks as a cavalier, but doesn't really lose or gain anything from going to another class.

Vyland actually isn't that bad. The only reason he sucks is because of join time. If the Social Knights you start with the game are all powerful, then Vyland is an example of a Social Knight that actually *does* have average stats.

Ok, THIS is a good point. Why bother when bord, cord and barst can kill armors anyways? Simple. Ranged magic.

All Mages are getting one rounded, even one hit KO'd from some characters.

Doesn't mean Vyland has no uses. Why bother having a list if the god cavs can just do everything by themselves?

If Vyland had no uses, he wouldn't be in Mid tier. Don't forget the thing that hurts him: Join time, not his stats.

[grandjackal]

Mage Vyland isn't a chapter specific strategy. It's a whole game dedication to him being Mage since class swapped Mages from physical units absolutely depend on their Magic growth.

Vyland actually isn't that bad. The only reason he sucks is because of join time. If the Social Knights you start with the game are all powerful, then Vyland is an example of a Social Knight that actually *does* have average stats.

All Mages are getting one rounded, even one hit KO'd from some characters.

If Vyland had no uses, he wouldn't be in Mid tier. Don't forget the thing that hurts him: Join time, not his stats.

Oh, he's there due to his join time?...Ok. Nevermind then. But to clear some things up...

Mage being a dedication? Why would you keep him a mage? He'll have two levels of meh that he won't miss out in his weaker areas anyways. He starts early enough to make his low starting magic usable since at the time it isn't like Maric's will be much better. He'll have like 1 chapter of being a mage just to help push everyone from doing well to kicking ass. Any longer of being a mage and he'll be weak as a mage anyways.

That's my point, he is average. So what's it gonna hurt him to class adapt? Others are awesome in one class, he can be average as anything. Yeah the god cavs can do anything, but they don't care to change classes as they can do everything as cavs anyways.

I meant HE gets range magic. Having him change to mage to attack mages isn't awful bright. But like I said, he's only being a mage for like one chapter.

But I forgot to look over the list again, my bad...Thought he was much lower...

In fact, I'm crazy to try to argue. This was originally supposed to be a suggestion XD Now I feel sorry for causing a ruckus.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

Others are awesome in one class, he can be average as anything.

Cain/Abel are awesome in any class.

(Well, dunno about Myrmidon/Swordmaster, but Vyland's getting hit by the low Str/Def growth more than Cain/Abel are.)

Edited January 28, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Cain/Abel are awesome in any class.

True, but I wish to clarify. They are indeed awesome as any class. But with cav mobility, access to weapons like javelins, armorslayers, hoseslayers and levin swords, changing them to archer is kinda pointless. Same goes for mage. Being a myrmidon is basically trading mobility, another weapon set, and better defense for overkill speed they don't need. Being a curate is rather redundant with how many staff users the game throws at you anyways. Only thing they'd care to change into is draco knights to get axes and flying.

They are awesome as any class, but why would they want to be anything other than a cavalier? Vyland at least has a reason to class adapt, that reason being because he's the only one who'd care to. Vyland has kind of a slow start. He has no reason not to.

Maybe this will have more impact in harder modes where he would struggle to find a use...

By the way, what are your thoughts on Knight!Bord? Or however that's done...

[Rodykitty]

True, but I wish to clarify. They are indeed awesome as any class. But with cav mobility, access to weapons like javelins, armorslayers, hoseslayers and levin swords, changing them to archer is kinda pointless.

Vyland loses these advantages as well. Let's not create a double standard.

[grandjackal]

Vyland loses these advantages as well. Let's not create a double standard.

This is where I'm starting to think it's only more important in harder modes as he can't use those advantages too well. His strength makes his attacks a bit meh and he doesn't exactly have defense. He'd basically be dependent on slayer weapons (another reason I'm starting to think it'll be more obvious in harder modes because now he can just use javelins to take out mages if they attack him anyways, and he can smack them dead on the offense. Harder modes, I don't think he has the starting stats to pull this off and I would think it would take at least a small bit for him to get to that level.). Another reason being he can have access to slaying effects. He's gonna be dependent on them in harder modes, why not adjust him to have slayer advantage against a problematic enemy depending on the chapter to help hurt the enemy so that your good guys can nab the exp kill without fear and easier. As a mage in chapter 7 (The one with Ricardo imprisoned), he can use magic to weaken the armor knights from a distance to keep safe, so your armorslayer/hammer guys will have a safer time taking them out. Same goes for archer for those draco/pegasi knights in the Trap of Lefcandy map (or whatever they're calling it now). Even helping as a cav against the horse units in the same way (except this time he'll actually eat a counter).

There are better cavs than him. In fact, there are plenty of others who are bad at other jobs and their own. Vyland's lucky he's average as everything aside from mage. Basically he'll be a designated hitter. He'll help when you need it (example, those lefcandy flyers. You'll have like Gordin and Castor as your only usable archers that aren't units class changed from a better class like Cain and Abel, outside of possibly Roshea and/or Matthis. You'd want only one more archer for safety. Vyland can do this, and he is an option to choose from that is Roshea and Matthis. None of them have a good start as archers, so Vyland can at least be a usable option here to be an archer for the chapter.). He's there to abuse slayer use as his speed will later help make him the best user of it. Only difference is later, Vyland can do something else with the same ease he can do any job available to him, while Matthis and Roshea will be stuck as archers. So while Vyland is more situational, he can at least adapt to change his use in a given situation.

I think I should stop here because now I just feel like I'm repeating myself.

[Rodykitty]

This is where I'm starting to think it's only more important in harder modes as he can't use those advantages too well.

On Harder modes, he is a much crappier unit anyway due to the enemy stats.

As a mage in chapter 7 (The one with Ricardo imprisoned), he can use magic to weaken the armor knights from a distance to keep safe, so your armorslayer/hammer guys will have a safer time taking them out.

Pretty much any Mage can do this, Sheeda really being the best since she's guaranteed to double, while Vyland isn't.

There are better cavs than him. In fact, there are plenty of others who are bad at other jobs and their own.

Quality of their best job is weighed far more than how many jobs they can do.

why not adjust him to have slayer advantage against a problematic enemy depending on the chapter to help hurt the enemy so that your good guys can nab the exp kill without fear and easier.

He's there to abuse slayer use as his speed will later help make him the best user of it.

Jeigan, Hardin, and Sheeda can do this task just fine. And pretty much any Social Knight above Vyland and the Pegasus Knights not named Est are the best users of slayer weapons. Marth as well.

while Matthis and Roshea will be stuck as archers. So while Vyland is more situational, he can at least adapt to change his use in a given situation.

Matthis can play Swordfighter/Swordmaster.

Adapting to situations isn't going to mean much if you're not excelling at them and your class swapped role is easily replaced by just using another character.

[grandjackal]

On Harder modes, he is a much crappier unit anyway due to the enemy stats.

Pretty much any Mage can do this, Sheeda really being the best since she's guaranteed to double, while Vyland isn't.

Quality of their best job is weighed far more than how many jobs they can do.

Jeigan, Hardin, and Sheeda can do this task just fine. And pretty much any Social Knight above Vyland and the Pegasus Knights not named Est are the best users of slayer weapons. Marth as well.

Matthis can play Swordfighter/Swordmaster.

Adapting to situations isn't going to mean much if you're not excelling at them and your class swapped role is easily replaced by just using another character.

- Yeah, so finding good uses for him in situations would be better than just outright dismissing him, right?

- K then, Vyland has no reason to be a mage then. Will help save him from 1 or 2 levels of no strength and defense, and if he doesn't do the job as well, then he's no reason to do it.

- Yeah, and Vyland doesn't really any job any better than the other, outside of mage and curate.

- Sheeda has the wing spear and Marth has the rapier anyways though. The god cavs don't really NEED those weapons though...Jeigan and Hardin though...yeah, got me there. Vyland won't be seeing any more use than either of them in harder modes...

- Matthis as a swordfighter starts with 3 strength and if you wait till later he'll have average speed at best. If anything, he'd be switching on and off (lol, mounting/dismounting). Either he isn't really doing amazing doubling later, or he might as well be using a feather at the start and tickling people with it. Eventually, he's gonna tickle the wrong guy and get his eye scooped out. As an archer though, he has slow a start as any of them, but ends up resembling something pretty cool in time. Not sure if people reach 20/20 by the end, but the way he grows is a lot like FE9 Shinon. Ok strength, great durability, has pretty nice speed, just a slow start. Only exception is that you actually get Matthis at a reasonable time and his growths aren't substantially overkill and grows into it over time. Starts out basically no better than the other archers, but grows into a great one eventually.

Actually it's quite the opposite. If you're not doing any job better than the other, you might as well class adapt. There's no excuse not to. So it's either Vyland can adapt to the situation when others don't want to/ don't need to, or be kept as a mediocre cavalier. Option A sounds better than option B.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

- Yeah, so finding good uses for him in situations would be better than just outright dismissing him, right?

You've played H5, right?

- Sheeda has the wing spear and Marth has the rapier anyways though.

Exactly my point.

- Yeah, and Vyland doesn't really any job any better than the other, outside of mage and curate.

Right. He's fine where he's at on the tier list.

- Matthis as a swordfighter starts with 3 strength and if you wait till later he'll have average speed at best.

11 base speed is fine and his Str will pick up.

Actually it's quite the opposite. If you're not doing any job better than the other, you might as well class adapt. There's no excuse not to. So it's either Vyland can adapt to the situation when others don't want to/ don't need to, or be kept as a mediocre cavalier. Option A sounds better than option B.

Okay, but this is not going to make Vyland better than he's already considered since it's more of a player strategy than a strength he has.

Also, Vyland's doing a better job at Social Knight/Paladin than other classes. He gets an auto-D in lances and good enough speed growth. He gets awful Defense as a Swordfighter, and he is hindered by the natural disadvantages the Archer class.

So no, he's not doing every job the same.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

You've played H5, right?

Exactly my point.

Right. He's fine where he's at on the tier list.

11 base speed is fine and his Str will pick up.

Okay, but this is not going to make Vyland better than he's already considered since it's more of a player strategy than a strength he has.

Also, Vyland's doing a better job at Social Knight/Paladin than other classes. He gets an auto-D in lances and good enough speed growth. He gets awful Defense as a Swordfighter, and he is hindered by the natural disadvantages the Archer class.

So no, he's not doing every job the same.

-I've stated many times I haven't even played the game. I could easily see him being bad in H5 though...I haven't played this game, but it's apparently FE1 on steroids and class swap. Played FE1 and beat it, so the best I have is a general idea.

- The wing spear and Rapier are things only Shiida and Marth can use, they aren't taking horseslayers/armorslayers if they're using them, so it isn't unreasonable to think Vyland has a chance at these two weapons. They get slayer weapons yeah, but they aren't horseslayers/armorslayers. Meaning Vyland has a chance at the resources.

- I dunno, being one of the few who has no reason not to class adapt, I'd say he could have some good moments...

- Ok, Matthis will be doubling, but 3 strength with swords...He might pick it up, but he'll be taking his sweet time to do so. 3 strength is giggleworthy. Matthis wouldn't realistically dream of being a swordfighter. He'd MUCH prefer archer.

- True, but it's one he does the best. I will say it again, no one else would want to class adapt aside from maybe Nabarl. It's better than just the mediocre cavalier throughout. It isn't a strength, just an option. BUT, it's an option he would definitely prefer.

- He wouldn't WANT to be a swordfighter either, since he has swords anyways as a cav. But as a cav, he has no advantage against flyers. He has the option to switch to archer to help against those annoyances. He shoots a draco knight and someone finishes it off OR he could take out a single annoying pegasi. But all he has from being a cavalier is an auto-D. In exchange from the archer and mage is that he has to attack/counter as a cavalier. That normally is an advantage if you aren't fragile. Vyland is fragile though, so having the option of changing to archer (for the flyers) or mage (to weaken armors safely rather than get hurt using an armorslayer) without really losing much in the stats he's weak in (attack, defense) is an advantage he actually has. He is not godly indeed, but he has good uses. I would imagine anyways...You might say "but so can the god cavs!", but they're durable, have the speed and power to not NEED to change class to be more than mediocre, which is why they're godly in the first place. Being good in some situations is better than being bland throughout.

Archer class is only a disadvantage if you are good as anything else. For the glass Vyland is made of even as a cavalier, he could afford to stand back and equip a bow every now and then. He can be a cavalier when there is low enemy density (there is a lot of low density in this game, but I'm talking like 3 or 4 enemies, he doesn't have the durability to stand up to a whole squad. Norda Slave Trade in that area with some of the mercenaries comes to mind. The guys who charge toward you would gang rape Vyland, but he could afford to go up against the mercs along with the other cavs since they wouldn't be able to focus fire Vyland...or was that FE3 where you were charged by cavaliers and horsemen? He can be an archer in maps where flyers are a high annoyance or generally would prefer to stand back. Mage would only be good for like 1 chapter though, so mage is out.

...Which case, he'd just be switching between Cavalier and archer. but he's no reason to focus on stats when he'd just prefer to be utility.

Hmmm...perhaps now I'm starting to see your point. But still, being good depending on the situation is better than being vanilla throughout, right?

-

[Rodykitty]

Okay, first off.

I am NOT calling this a bad idea by any means. It's just not going to affect Vyland's quality as a unit.

If we judge one character for class swapping utility, we have to judge all characters for it.

- Ok, Matthis will be doubling, but 3 strength with swords...He might pick it up, but he'll be taking his sweet time to do so. 3 strength is giggleworthy. Matthis wouldn't realistically dream of being a swordfighter. He'd MUCH prefer archer.

Julian also has to catch up, but he's still a decent unit. This is not to say that Machis is as good as Julian in this setup, but he has the growths to be usable enough to where Archer isn't his only option.

Vyland is fragile though

What? The only way this is, is because he starts underleveled, but his averages in HP and Def are pretty close to the starting Social Knights. If anything, Archer/Mage will hurt his durability.

so having the option of changing to archer (for the flyers) or mage (to weaken armors safely rather than get hurt using an armorslayer) without really losing much in the stats he's weak in (attack, defense) is an advantage he actually has.

He loses growths, which he really, really wants.

But all he has from being a cavalier is an auto-D.

D in lances means that he's using Javelins right away.

But as a cav, he has no advantage against flyers.

Neither do the Cavs, but since Vyland's averages aren't that far behind the Cavs, he should be able to take them on regardless. Pegasus Knights are really easy, and by the time Dracoknights come around, he'll be leveled up enough.

[grandjackal]

Okay, first off.

I am NOT calling this a bad idea by any means. It's just not going to affect Vyland's quality as a unit.

If we judge one character for class swapping utility, we have to judge all characters for it.

Julian also has to catch up, but he's still a decent unit. This is not to say that Machis is as good as Julian in this setup, but he has the growths to be usable enough to where Archer isn't his only option.

What? The only way this is, is because he starts underleveled, but his averages in HP and Def are pretty close to the starting Social Knights. If anything, Archer/Mage will hurt his durability.

He loses growths, which he really, really wants.

D in lances means that he's using Javelins right away.

Neither do the Cavs, but since Vyland's averages aren't that far behind the Cavs, he should be able to take them on regardless. Pegasus Knights are really easy, and by the time Dracoknights come around, he'll be leveled up enough.

K, NOW I'm convinced. I just mentioned archer aainst draco knights in the ones in the lefcandy trap chapter.

I've no problem with judging all characters on it, but I'd prefer it be to make a unit usable because if a unit is good as it is, why change it? But I didn't even realize Vyland isn't that far behind the cavs in stats...So there I was misinformed. He doesn't really lose in stats he wants though unless he switches to mage (and even then, I only suggested a single chapter for that.).

Forgot about Julian...K, Matthis has a decent option then. STILL would prefer him an archer though...

Thanks by the way. Helps me know more in the intricacies in this game. I can't help but be obsessive to detail, it's an odd quirk of mine. Sorry if perhaps I seemed out of hand at times.

So lets move on, shall we? What are your thoughts on Knight!Bord? Starts with more defense by I think 2 points, has better growths in said stat, better strength, both have bad speed and luck anyways that won't be cured any time soon...I'd rather rely on better durability, which from looking from the outside in Knight!Bord seems to have more of...or in normal mode, does Doga manage the fast enough thing?

[Rodykitty]

I've no problem with judging all characters on it, but I'd prefer it be to make a unit usable because if a unit is good as it is, why change it?

Vyland is already usable, though, which is why he's in Mid tier.

What are your thoughts on Knight!Bord?

Awful on anything other than NM.

[grandjackal]

[quote name='C

[grandjackal]

Vyland is already usable, though, which is why he's in Mid tier.

Awful on anything other than NM.

- I meant more usable.

- Gotcha.

EDIT: Sorry about the double post, it glitched up when I tried to post.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Dat Nick]

i never did edit the revised bottom tier, did I

I'll do it now

tiers also re-named. Hopefully this is going to prevent any more "LOL LENA MID TIER LENA TOO LOW LOL" blasphemy.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[grandjackal]

i never did edit the revised bottom tier, did I

I'll do it now

tiers also re-named. Hopefully this is going to prevent any more "LOL LENA MID TIER LENA TOO LOW LOL" blasphemy.

How so? Like God, Great, Good, Usable, Troublesome, Bad and Useless? Would be more clear, because for any new guy, the upper-mid-lower can be a bit misleading.

PS. Look at all the craziness that happened while you were away! XD

[Rodykitty]

How so? Like God, Great, Good, Usable, Troublesome, Bad and Useless? Would be more clear, because for any new guy, the upper-mid-lower can be a bit misleading.

Just look at the front page.

Clint Eastwood, Top, High, Upper Mid, Lower Mid, Low, Bottom, and Fail.

[grandjackal]

Just look at the front page.

Clint Eastwood, Top, High, Upper Mid, Lower Mid, Low, Bottom, and Fail.

I just meant upper mid, mid and lower mid. I'm aware what it means, but new guys might not. Same general area of usefulness, just either a bit goes their way, are plain vanilla or have a bit against them right? The others are indeed rather spelled out (and i facepalm myself for having missed it.). Besides, tier lists could be misleading. From what I hear, NM is a cakewalk where even bottom tier isn't exactly having problems while in Merciless, units are placed based on something rather than if they're good throughout. Jagen sucks, but I see he's pretty high up.

Then again, I'm sure they'd just ask and others would explain...I'm sorry, I'm a bit off today. Haven't been sleeping well this week, I'm a bit out of it.

[Dat Nick]

NM is a cakewalk where even bottom tier isn't exactly having problems

bit of an exaggeration

[grandjackal]

bit of an exaggeration

A bit, but not by much.