So...let's talk tiers.

[Dat Nick]

read edit. For some reason I thought Hardain had 7 base speed instead of 8.

[Don Draper]

Darros is completely reliant on Merc too. How far down are you moving him?

[Dat Nick]

good point

probably just above Bord

[Rodykitty]

Daros doesn't suck enough to be in bottom tier, but neither does Bord. They both should probably be in Low Mid.

[Dat Nick]

For being totally reliant on a class a lot of character STILL want [And only being passable rather than omgwtfbbqh4x], that's still pushing it.

Low. No higher.

[Lord Raven]

To be fair, only Ogma and Cord are going to want to compete with it at best. Zagaro and Wolf are good with anything, and Barst is raping as a Fighter; I'd imagine Mercenary would stunt his strength growth and actually make him worse. Maybe Caesar too, but then you have more slots so there's a bit less competition.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

Barst makes an amazing Mercenary. It takes Ogma like ten level ups to catch up to Barst in Str.

For NM, Fighter/Pirate is sure to be better, but to say that Barst would have trouble having Str has been proven to be false.

Edited January 22, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Lord Raven]

Well NM is precisely what we're arguing so...

I also think Cord might be better as a Fighter too because of Strength and Speed (same reason as Barst). 9 base speed is enough to double with the Iron Axe at that point in time, and he has good strength and speed growths too. So really they also have to compete with Ogma, so it's likely one of them can get it.

I see the Barst thing. I would still switch back to Fighter after about 10 level ups just so he can still have good speed, while actually retaining a strength lead. But that's why he's above Ogma, anyway.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

only Ogma and Cord are going to want to compete with it at best.

No, Cord couldn't give less a crap about Merc. He wants Hunter>General. better overall for him, and basically no competition for the hunter class, if any. It's a win win situation. He gets the setup he wants, and nobody else gives a damn.

Zagaro and Wolf are good with anything,

But best with Hero: And it's a lot easier to get them up to speed on Hero.

I'd imagine Mercenary would stunt his strength growth and actually make him worse.

Because we all know you need a power level of OVER NINE THOUSAAAAANNNND to kill everything on the map. We're talking about lolfail NM enemies, not H5 enemies who have roughly the same stats as Vegeta. You REALLY don't need to be a Super Saiyan to kill everything on the map with ease, you really don't. Vyland wouldn't be ranked so high up, otherwise.

No, Barst's offense is fine. 9 base and 20% str. That's beating Athena, and Athena doesn't have any trouble with Steel. Also, Merc>Berserker is one of the best options out there for him.

Edited January 22, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Dat Nick]

so we've got

Bord: Somewhere in Low

Darros: Somewhere in Low

Norne

Lorenz

Astram

Samson

Macellan

Midia

Arran

Roshea

Gordin

Tomas

Decided to move Midia to the top of the bottom tier paladins, as vs Arran and Roshe, it's a matter of a good Endgame and a sucky everything else versus a bad endgame and a sucky everything else.

look good?

[grandjackal]

Hey. I'm by no means qualified to make any serious comments here, haven't even played the game yet, but I have a suggestion...Just a suggestion, no means making a point, but...

...Would Roshea and Matthis make good archers? No one else really wants the class, would help Roshea's speed problem (though I wouldn't imagine it saving it, 10% speed even as a cav is pretty sad) and he has monster strength regardless, Matthis would be well rounded (Good HP, decent strength ((well, better than the other archers available by a mile)), gets his speed up to a healthy amount from what I can see, plenty durable to boot) though I would imagine him being more useful as an archer in merciless as he makes a pretty good cav here from what I can tell. Also, Roshea would support with the Wolfguard and Matthis with at least Lena, right? One thing I can't seem to find out anything on is how supports work and how one gets supports. Is it the same as all the other games, or do certain characters only support with certain others? Either way, Roshea is at least helping a BUNCH of amazing characters and one meh one. Archer seems perfect for Roshea at least. At least he won't be in the front lines getting his ass handed to him, right?

One thing I noticed with stat averages is that Vyland doesn't change too drastically no matter what class he is. Class change doesn't fix any of the stats he needs, specifically defense and strength. Maybe he's a sort of can do any job when you need him to, just can't be masterful in said jobs? Only problem is it would only make a big difference after promotion when he can be a draco knight...But come on, you have so many cavs anyways, it wouldn't hurt to have Vyland do something else for a bit, would it? Armor heavy chapter? He can be a mage to burn them and let someone else have an armor slayer, not to mention the weakening with magic can make the job easier for someone who can't kill (though I suppose that's a point against him rather than for...). How many mages are gonna be used anyways? Merric? Magic isn't exactly in heavy demand, Vyland can at least get a bit for a while when his statistical versatility is still useful. Those draco knights and pegasi do come pretty early. Wouldn't hurt to have a spare archer with you. No one else wants to be anyways. What would seem to help him is that he comes early enough to put his statistical versatility to good use before his defense and power finally comes to bite him in the ass.

Last suggestion is Katua making a good mage? She doesn't get much magic, but she gets more than most class-swapped mage. Gets strength too so she can use stronger spells without speed loss too. Has monster speed to boot, so she could easily double with powerful spells. Ends has similar durability to Maric, at least when trained up. She only really loses out in HP, though it is quite a bit, but she starts with good speed regardless and has a point or 2 more of defense over him until he promotes in which case they're pretty much tied outside of 5 HP at 20/20. Again though, might be more relevant in merciless mode due to her being good as it is as a peg in normal...At least in hard mode if she's getting her ass handed to her when you get her, at least being a mage gives her an option to stay away from danger. Nowhere near Maric in magic talent, but at least in harder damage, would she at least be trainable, or would it be too much trouble still? I mean, unlike Linde, she has actual durability...

I'm probably missing something here, like accuracy or weapon rank or something with all this, but again, haven't played the game. I'm probably totally wrong. But I figured I'd stop on by and toss a thought or two...Perhaps I'm having too much fun here at serenes. But forgive me, I'll shut my ever-running mouth now...

[Rodykitty]

...Would Roshea and Matthis make good archers? No one else really wants the class, would help Roshea's speed problem (though I wouldn't imagine it saving it, 10% speed even as a cav is pretty sad) and he has monster strength regardless, Matthis would be well rounded (Good HP, decent strength ((well, better than the other archers available by a mile)), gets his speed up to a healthy amount from what I can see, plenty durable to boot) though I would imagine him being more useful as an archer in merciless as he makes a pretty good cav here from what I can tell. Also, Roshea would support with the Wolfguard and Matthis with at least Lena, right? One thing I can't seem to find out anything on is how supports work and how one gets supports. Is it the same as all the other games, or do certain characters only support with certain others? Either way, Roshea is at least helping a BUNCH of amazing characters and one meh one. Archer seems perfect for Roshea at least. At least he won't be in the front lines getting his ass handed to him, right?

They're not the most amazing Archers and they start out pretty sluggish, but they're definitely better than your other candidates. If you want an archer, Matthis or Roshe are your guys of choice.

One thing I noticed with stat averages is that Vyland doesn't change too drastically no matter what class he is. Class change doesn't fix any of the stats he needs, specifically defense and strength. Maybe he's a sort of can do any job when you need him to, just can't be masterful in said jobs? Only problem is it would only make a big difference after promotion when he can be a draco knight...But come on, you have so many cavs anyways, it wouldn't hurt to have Vyland do something else for a bit, would it? Armor heavy chapter? He can be a mage to burn them and let someone else have an armor slayer, not to mention the weakening with magic can make the job easier for someone who can't kill (though I suppose that's a point against him rather than for...). How many mages are gonna be used anyways? Merric? Magic isn't exactly in heavy demand, Vyland can at least get a bit for a while when his statistical versatility is still useful. Those draco knights and pegasi do come pretty early. Wouldn't hurt to have a spare archer with you. No one else wants to be anyways. What would seem to help him is that he comes early enough to put his statistical versatility to good use before his defense and power finally comes to bite him in the ass.

Nobody's forcing you to keep Vyland as a Social Knight. Tier lists are more of a judging of what a unit's best at and not setting your strategy in stone.

Last suggestion is Katua making a good mage? She doesn't get much magic, but she gets more than most class-swapped mage. Gets strength too so she can use stronger spells without speed loss too. Has monster speed to boot, so she could easily double with powerful spells. Ends has similar durability to Maric, at least when trained up. She only really loses out in HP, though it is quite a bit, but she starts with good speed regardless and has a point or 2 more of defense over him until he promotes in which case they're pretty much tied outside of 5 HP at 20/20. Again though, might be more relevant in merciless mode due to her being good as it is as a peg in normal...At least in hard mode if she's getting her ass handed to her when you get her, at least being a mage gives her an option to stay away from danger. Nowhere near Maric in magic talent, but at least in harder damage, would she at least be trainable, or would it be too much trouble still? I mean, unlike Linde, she has actual durability...

No, Katua likes staying as a physical unit for Merciless. She has little problem getting kills as a physical unit. I was doing it as Swordmaster, so she'll do just fine as a Pegasus/Draco/Paladin.

By the time you get Katua and Paola, you'll already be having your Healers/Mages promoted, so you should have a viable Magic user by then.

[grandjackal]

They're not the most amazing Archers and they start out pretty sluggish, but they're definitely better than your other candidates. If you want an archer, Matthis or Roshe are your guys of choice.

Nobody's forcing you to keep Vyland as a Social Knight. Tier lists are more of a judging of what a unit's best at and not setting your strategy in stone.

No, Katua likes staying as a physical unit for Merciless. She has little problem getting kills as a physical unit. I was doing it as Swordmaster, so she'll do just fine as a Pegasus/Draco/Paladin.

By the time you get Katua and Paola, you'll already be having your Healers/Mages promoted, so you should have a viable Magic user by then.

Wow, I was right about Matthis and Roshea? Damn XD Haven't even played the game. Man I can't wait for this...

Not saying Vyland should. In fact, I'm suggesting ways to make him more useful. He's mediocre no matter what he is, why not have him change class to adjust to his situation? He does it better than others for sure and it isn't like he'll be losing out in the stats he's good at and it won't fix his problematic areas anyways. He loses and gains nothing from class swap. You get him early enough to put him to good use with class swap. The chapter with Ricardo in prison has quite a few armor knights, having a spare mage around wouldn't hurt. No one else would want to become one anyways. The chapter that introduces Minerva? Those draco/peg knights are problematic, having another archer wouldn't hurt. He won't see much use, but he'll be pretty useful for that time at least.

She'll want to stay physical? Doesn't she start a bit weak for merciless though? If someone is weak, the idea that comes to mind is to keep them away from danger, so wouldn't a job that lets her strike from range do well for her? She still does pretty well as a mage. Not Maric level, but still. Or am I missing something about her being a pegasi knight that is impressive in some way?

Not arguing Paula being anything else. Flyer with good stats for the time you have her, good available weapons she can use...Arguing her something else would be crazy.

Thanks for the info though. I'm loving the sound of class-swap. Makes more characters more versatile (or at least usable in some shape or form).

[Rodykitty]

Not saying Vyland should. In fact, I'm suggesting ways to make him more useful. He's mediocre no matter what he is, why not have him change class to adjust to his situation? He does it better than others for sure and it isn't like he'll be losing out in the stats he's good at and it won't fix his problematic areas anyways. He loses and gains nothing from class swap. You get him early enough to put him to good use with class swap. The chapter with Ricardo in prison has quite a few armor knights, having a spare mage around wouldn't hurt. No one else would want to become one anyways. The chapter that introduces Minerva? Those draco/peg knights are problematic, having another archer wouldn't hurt. He won't see much use, but he'll be pretty useful for that time at least.

Nobody is preventing you from doing this and the only thing that's limiting this strategy are weapon levels starting out at E. It's just not going to affect tier lists since the characters above him are much better at adapting than he is.

She'll want to stay physical? Doesn't she start a bit weak for merciless though?

No. She comes onto a chapter where she can farm on Pegasus Knight reinforcements, and the next chapter is full of Mages for her to kill. Not to mention that a level 10 Katua is going to be better than a level 20 Sheeda in every single way.

[grandjackal]

Nobody is preventing you from doing this and the only thing that's limiting this strategy are weapon levels starting out at E. It's just not going to affect tier lists since the characters above him are much better at adapting than he is.

No. She comes onto a chapter where she can farm on Pegasus Knight reinforcements, and the next chapter is full of Mages for her to kill. Not to mention that a level 10 Katua is going to be better than a level 20 Sheeda in every single way.

They may indeed adapt much better than he, but how many of them care to or actually need to? I'm aware of the penalties of class swap, I just want to see how effective some characters can actually be when used to their best potential and his seems to be able to do all the stuff no one else cares to do/aren't actually able to do well anyways. Vyland has been main interest though for me because he looks like a medieval hitman. I'll still use him, but I THINK I'm trying to argue a list I've virtually know clue of it's more intricate parts...*slaps myself* I should know better, sorry. You'd know much better I suppose...You HAVE played the game after all, and you definitely seem to know what you're talking about. But hey, like I said, just throwing out suggestions...Besides, he ain't doing any favors staying as a cavalier when he doesn't need to be, right?

As for Katua...yup. Makes sense. Noted.

[Rodykitty]

I'm aware of the penalties of class swap, I just want to see how effective some characters can actually be when used to their best potential and his seems to be able to do all the stuff no one else cares to do/aren't actually able to do well anyways.

That's fine. It's just that any effort to bring a lower tier character to full potential can also be applied to the better characters. Think of tiers as more of a listing of weapons at your disposal and not as a set of strategies that you must follow.

[grandjackal]

That's fine. It's just that any effort to bring a lower tier character to full potential can also be applied to the better characters. Think of tiers as more of a listing of weapons at your disposal and not as a set of strategies that you must follow.

Not so. Those higher guys will delay weapon level growth this way. Those higher guys are good enough at base class, switching them would be a waste (those higher guys, I mean the godly cavaliers). I'd rather not wait for awesome people to be more awesome. Vyland on the other hand ends up mediocre, so he won't be doing well as his original class anyways. He wants to jump different classes because 1. None of the god cavs cares to and 2. None of the god cavs wants to anyways. The god cavs don't wanna be archers, they don't wanna be mages, they don't want to be anything but cavs. Those above him would prefer to stick to a class or class branch (Hunter->General and such). Vyland wouldn't mind multi-classing because he's the only one that would realistically give a damn to. He won't end up well, might as well make him pretty awesome for a shining moment rather than forcing him to stick with a certain path to be generally bland.

...Ok, I'm starting to sound rude. I should stop while I'm ahead. I've had a general warm welcome here, no need to turn it cold.

[Lord Raven]

Starting to sound rude? It's probably more polite than 90% of the people posting in this thread.

He has a point though. The upper tiers are hindered by the archer class; the lower tiers are helped by the archer class. The fact of the matter is... if nobody cares about something, then it should be entitled to the one that does care. In which case, there are plenty of archer spots not being used and a few chars who want it so why not? They're pretty much best as Archers anyway.

[Rodykitty]

He has a point though. The upper tiers are hindered by the archer class; the lower tiers are helped by the archer class. The fact of the matter is... if nobody cares about something, then it should be entitled to the one that does care. In which case, there are plenty of archer spots not being used and a few chars who want it so why not? They're pretty much best as Archers anyway.

I know. Nobody ever disagreed with this.

The case with Vyland is that he's saying since he sucks anyway, class change him based on what chapter he's in for maximum useage. The thing about this is, though, is that this is a kind of strategy favortism that can be applied for any character, and even then some of the utility that could be gained can be done by bringing an Axe user with a Hammer or any other substitutes.

For tier lists, I think the way we're doing it is fine. Vyland can be used as a flexible class swap unit for certain chapters. Cool, so can characters above and below him, and all of the advantages and disadvantages are applicable to everyone.

[grandjackal]

Starting to sound rude? It's probably more polite than 90% of the people posting in this thread.

He has a point though. The upper tiers are hindered by the archer class; the lower tiers are helped by the archer class. The fact of the matter is... if nobody cares about something, then it should be entitled to the one that does care. In which case, there are plenty of archer spots not being used and a few chars who want it so why not? They're pretty much best as Archers anyway.

Was raised to be modest. I'm...overly polite until I'm more used to a situation.

True, but my point with Vyland is that he won't do good in ANY class, thus why he can just change class depending on the mission. If he's doing no job well, he might as do ANY job when he can, right? If anything, he's the most adaptable because he's the only one who can afford to do so and do it without any real loss. Roshea is a better archer because as a frontliner he's getting his ass kicked anyways. He might as well try his best to sit back and shoot arrows rather than put himself in danger by attacking directly, right? It'll help his speed a bit, he has beastly attack as an archer so each hit will hurt like hell, defense won't matter if he's not getting attacked and even if he is, he has beastly HP to protect him from the one or two guys attacking him if they do manage to target him. If he has any supports with anyone in the Wolfguard, this would help him AND his supporters even more, if by a little bit.

Speaking of class changes making people better, anyone give knight Bord a thought? Pretty much starts with more defense than Doga, better defense and strength growths, both have speed and luck problems that won't be fixed any time soon...Only problem is that Bord is pretty much stuck with absolute 0 speed, but will it matter if he's not getting hurt anyways? He just trades speed for painful shots and better defense. Sound like a fair trade for a knight?

As for the class swap favoritism, most in B class would absolutely hate to be dark mages, you have PLENTY of people who can be good axe users for the hammer anyways (Barst, Cord, Ogma in some situations). You really need more than three hammer bros? Some have a hard time pulling off being a knight too. Knights can't really do anything other than stand there. By the time you class swap, you have Doga and then Bord can be used as one for the time he might be used, which isn't any longer than Doga in my opinion. Switch them to dark mage when Zagaro shows up. It's only favoritism if everyone can do well in said class, and some do certain jobs quite a bit better, enough to warrent them a job (or else, Zagaro and Wolf are WAY too high). Vyland's advantage is he's one of the few in the game that REALLY has nothing better to do. Won't rise him up much, if at all really. Garbage like Thomas and Lawrence won't matter as they come late anyways, right? Most others have jobs they'd like to keep. Vyland is like the only one who has the luxury to class adapt as everyone else either has jobs they'd like to keep and do good at, come late, or suck no matter what.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

True, but my point with Vyland is that he won't do good in ANY class, thus why he can just change class depending on the mission.

And characters above him are doing a better job at this flexibility than he is. Higher tier characters having better growths (as well as higher stats from being leveled up) means that they suffer less from the changes as well.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea if you want to use Vyland, I just don't see it affecting his tier position.

As for the class swap favoritism, most in B class would absolutely hate to be dark mages,

Why you would want to is beyond me since Axe users are already a natural counter for Armors, and Ogma gets to use the Armor Slayer. I've been assuming this is about Class Set A characters. Edited January 27, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

And characters above him are doing a better job at this flexibility than he is. Higher tier characters having better growths (as well as higher stats from being leveled up) means that they suffer less from the changes as well.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea if you want to use Vyland, I just don't see it affecting his tier position.

Vyland is easily an odd character, perhaps why I'm so bent on trying to argue his position in a tier list for a game I have yet to play XD.

The question with the high tier guys is to ask the simple question of WHY they'd want to change. They lose solid stats, slow down weapon rank, and in the case of the god cavs losing mobility. Vyland ends up mediocre anyways. His position is based on him being mediocre, but not of his luxury status. Why would the likes of the god cavs go archer or mage when they're solid as cavs? Why would Oguma or Barst wanna be armor knights? Why would Ceasar wanna be a fighter for the sake of hammers when he comes a bit late to be the designated hitter Vyland is, especially when he makes a pretty cool mercenary and hero as it is? Why change crappy A class guys to myrmidons/cavs to bring their rank up to enough for armorslayers just to take out a single armor knight (if at all) and risk getting their fragile ass handed to them?

Vyland's advantage is A. starts as a cav to easily build sword rank for an armor slayer when he needs it, B. Joins early enough to put the mage job to good use for his weak starting power AS one as it most likely won't be any better or worse than Maric's for a bit (who's high up for being a curate if I recall, so having a backup mage is VERY helpful) which helps make the armorslayer pointless for his time of use, and C. can do jobs others wouldn't care to do. Why overload the minerva intro chapter with archers when two or three will be enough? Charging through the ricardo chapter with mages is dumb. Now thinking of this, this game throws money at you, but does the caravan have enough room for all the crap you'd need to store to make everyone switching classes actually work? You'd be lugging around a hell of a lot of stuff to make that work well. The game throws money at you, but room in the caravan is hte problem. Besides, Vyland exists to make these chores not overkill. He's there to make things easier, not dominate. Obviously, because it's doubtful he'll get much use anyways. Only reason he can pull this off is because he's the only one who can do it well because he's the only one who comes early enough.

Only other person I can imagine doing the same is like...Gordin. Again, it's only because he comes early enough to do it well. Only difference is how he will be used. Early in chapters he'll help against the flyers, later can help as a tanky cav to make a mobile semi-wall, but again, won't be too useful due to his wonky starting stats. Vyland not only is one of the few who can do this, but I vouch he's the only one who can AFFORD to do it well as he's the only one who has the luxury due to not losing much from doing so.

Hell, if you bother to promote him, he gets extra padding, can fly and gets axes to eventually learn to use hammers while having awesome speed thanks to speed being his good growth and being in the A set class makes sure it stays good, those hammers helping against lategame generals. Game has lots of lancemen, his low weapon rank won't matter due to hitting the enemy for a bit of damage anyways. Would be his weak moment basically. Then he gets the hammer. This then gives him use lategame even. He still won't be anything special, but having nice speed and weapon selection, and flight would certainly help.

That last part is just sorta a pulled out my ass thing, but it's a thought to consider...Again, only reason he'd want to be a draco knight is for the hammer to stay good, while he could switch to paladin with a levin sword (due to a bit of magic he might have got as a mage) and armorslayer in hand, he will basically go from doing anything you need him to do to situational at best.

Man...that was long winded. tl;dr, Vyland is the lizard king, he can do anything.

Now seeing your comment about A class, who in A class can do this well/cares to? The god cavs don't care to, they're good already. They get them fancy armorslayers too, and probably won't really need them more than Vyland does. Same goes for Horseslayer (something I COMPLETELY forgot about). Gordin's starting stats are wonky, Riff is a healer end of story, same with Lena, Roshea would prefer to stay an archer as he can't do anything else well enough, the prepromotes either don't care or are stuck to one class, Thomas sucks and Boa+Maria would rather stick with staves. Only other person I could think of who could also do this is Nabarl, who actually has good gains for each class. Great myrmidon speed growth, great cavalier defense growth, good strength growth as an archer, has 5% more magic growth than most in A class that starts in physical classes and has decent stats as a mage...He'd clearly do it better than Vyland. Again though, it's because he comes early enough, just he happens to have some good growths as any of these classes and wouldn't mind not being a myrmidon due to myrmidon having crappy strength for him.

EDIT: Now thinking of it, why would he need to be anything else once a draco knight? He'll have enough spear level for horseslayers for the ton of horse units and hammers for the troublesome armors, unless dracoknights lose spears...Hell, he'll have range weapons to hit mages.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

They lose solid stats

Why do people think they'll lose a lot of stats? Maybe if they become a Mage, but you would need to dedicate any character to become a Magic user anyway, Vyland included.

The levels they gained in one class is going to carry over to another class. So if you trained Abel as a Social Knight, he's going to be a good Archer statistically if you can get his bow rank up. Just because a class isn't optimal doesn't mean it's inherently bad. It just goes to further prove that a good character is a good character.

And your idea of using class swap to create temporary changes to suit different chapters is not going to hurt character growth at all. Maybe like, one or two levels will be different and that's it.

Why would Ceasar wanna be a fighter for the sake of hammers when he comes a bit late to be the designated hitter Vyland is, especially when he makes a pretty cool mercenary and hero as it is?

Caesar gets to use the Armor Slayer once he reaches C Swords.

slow down weapon rank

By the time they can class swap, they're already set in weapon rank. The weapon rank is a problem for switching to new classes, not the main class.

Now thinking of this, this game throws money at you, but does the caravan have enough room for all the crap you'd need to store to make everyone switching classes actually work?

Yes. More than enough room in fact.

Why change crappy A class guys to myrmidons/cavs to bring their rank up to enough for armorslayers just to take out a single armor knight (if at all) and risk getting their fragile ass handed to them?

Just fight the armors like you normally would if you have to use a Lance user or, you know, use a Social Knight that has a C in Swords.

Hell, if you bother to promote him, he gets extra padding, can fly and gets axes to eventually learn to use hammers while having awesome speed thanks to speed being his good growth and being in the A set class makes sure it stays good, those hammers helping against lategame generals.

So you're dedicating him as a Dracoknight then. The best class for him to be trained up to become this is Social Knight.

Again, only reason he'd want to be a draco knight is for the hammer to stay good

You're overrating the Hammer's usefulness based on what I said, since the Hammer is hardly going to be used lategame. For the early game chapters where you would want to class swap into a Mage, you either already have a Mage, or you can have Barst or Bord use the Hammer. That's what I mean when I talked about the Hammer.

Man...that was long winded. tl;dr, Vyland is the lizard king, he can do anything.

So can any other Social Knight that's better than he is.

[grandjackal]

Why do people think they'll lose a lot of stats? Maybe if they become a Mage, but you would need to dedicate any character to become a Magic user anyway, Vyland included.

The levels they gained in one class is going to carry over to another class. So if you trained Abel as a Social Knight, he's going to be a good Archer statistically if you can get his bow rank up. Just because a class isn't optimal doesn't mean it's inherently bad. It just goes to further prove that a good character is a good character.

And your idea of using class swap to create temporary changes to suit different chapters is not going to hurt character growth at all. Maybe like, one or two levels will be different and that's it.

Caesar gets to use the Armor Slayer once he reaches C Swords.

By the time they can class swap, they're already set in weapon rank. The weapon rank is a problem for switching to new classes, not the main class.

Yes. More than enough room in fact.

Just fight the armors like you normally would if you have to use a Lance user or, you know, use a Social Knight that has a C in Swords.

So you're dedicating him as a Dracoknight then. The best class for him to be trained up to become this is Social Knight.

You're overrating the Hammer's usefulness based on what I said, since the Hammer is hardly going to be used lategame. For the early game chapters where you would want to class swap into a Mage, you either already have a Mage, or you can have Barst or Bord use the Hammer. That's what I mean when I talked about the Hammer.

So can any other Social Knight that's better than he is.

- Vyland doesn't have good strength growth anyways, He is one of the few physical guys who wouldn't care switching to mage.

- Again, Vyland is purely situational. He's helping majorly early on this way. In fact with this, he's only helping the god cavs have an EASIER time being even godlier cavs as they start to reach the real breaking point of beating enemies senseless. Abel can indeed be a good archer, but he'd prefer to be a good cavalier as long as he can. If you're good, becoming an archer is practically a penalty combat-wise. Abel can use javelins and unlike Vyland can use them well. Cain, Frey and Hardin can do the same, why would they WANT to change class if they don't have to? Vyland's only reason for class adapting is because he sucks as a cavalier, but doesn't really lose or gain anything from going to another class. If he's doing no job masterfully, he might as well do every job when the need calls for a specific talent, yeah? I'd prefer it be him than the god cavs. They wouldn't care to have bows and definitely don't wanna be mages. Vyland wouldn't care being any of these.

- Precisely, Ceasar doesn't NEED to class change to slay armors with even greater ease.

- Good point about weapon rank...Though, Vyland obviously comes later than them with lower rank/Hardin just flat out outranks him with weapon use. Would mean his ranks are low regardless. Only helps my point.

- K then, point taken.

- K then. Maybe going mage is a bit more for harder difficulties, as this is lol, normal mode...but there is no general character discussion thread anyways.

- HA! How? All he needs is a high enough rank in lances to get horseslayer. He's the only one needing to put slayer weapons to use by that point. Who else wants them at that point? Once he gets that lance rank, he doesn't care what he does. Once he goes draco knight, it won't matter as none of the class has stat growths that fix his two main problems, strength and defense. None of the classes give him so killer an amount of defense growth as to keep him there to make him a better draco knight. Reason he can pull this off is because he doesn't change much at all via class swap.

- Ok, THIS is a good point. Why bother when bord, cord and barst can kill armors anyways? Simple. Ranged magic. Lets him do good damage so someone else can finish off the armor. But you say why can't the axers? Well why have them kill ALL the armors? No harm in giving at least one free kill to someone not the axers. Can't have the axers do everything, can we? Helps save physical weapon use, keeps Vyland safe, AND can counter archers if he is of course the only one they target. All it really means is he won't be shot at by archers unless they can gang-kill him, but he can still hurt them if they try. But the main point is that with magic, armors aren't the only one unit vulnerable to it. He can chip at any unit that's troublesome at that point (he's not being a mage for long, your guys won't need much babying, if at all by then.). Once he's done being a mage for like a chapter, he's off doing whatever job needs to be done. Hell, he can help be all cavaliery if you need another cav to rush to a point. Sure, the cav gods are godly and all, but a little back-up never hurt, right? But again, he isn't exactly gonna be a mage for long, most likely one chapter at best just to help as your guys are juust starting to get awesome. Mage Vyland makes that smaaalll push all much easier.

As for lategame hammer...there are a few troublesome generals here or there. He can fly in and hammertime. It isn't so much a hammer as much as a flying hammer. It's either him or Minerva, and if you're using him for that long, he'll be higher level than Katria when she finally decides to show up and Paula is good for a moment until she can use both slayer weapons as a dracoknight. But if anyone is closer to flying hammer aside from Minerva already able to, it's Vyland. Then again, I might be overreacting from how insane the hammer was in Radiant Dawn...The hammer was epic there. I believe Haar, a flying dude who could wield it, was one of the main reasons it was pretty awesome and the fact it could be passed around like a blunt with all the axe users in that game .

- Of course the god cavs can do it better, but they're so good as cavs that they couldn't be bothered to. Vyland, and perhaps Nabarl, are the only ones who could possibly give a damn about class adapting.

You overstate the fact that the god cavs (Hardin is intelligent, Abel a courageous knight and Cain the powerful...can we call them The Triforce?) can do anything Vyland can. No dur, they outclass practically the whole cast. Doesn't mean Vyland has no uses. Why bother having a list if the god cavs can just do everything by themselves? Zagaro could solo the game, why bother with anyone else? Vyland has his uses. I'm not trying to argue him up, just showing he is more than just a mediocre cav. From there, you guys can take what you will from it. I'm just here to point out the finer details.

I'm rather enjoying myself Chainey ^^

As a note, I'm not trying to bring Vyland up to the god cavs, I'm aware he doesn't compare to them. His dependency (though good use of) slayer weapons proves this. Not that anyone else will care to use them eventually...

Edited January 27, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Lord Raven]

Vyland needs a C in Axes before he can use the Hammer. Not likely unless you give him arms scrolls.