How did Linde get Aura?

[Jotari]

It's something I've never questioned before, but how did Linde get her hands on Aura? She kind of just pulls it out of her ass and has it, but logically she should have been separated from it quite a while ago. We know Miloah used it to defend Archanea and was killed by Gharnef, so logically Gharnef would have it right there with Falchion. After all, Aura is kind of his motivation for everything. Sure Imhullu is better and he can't use Aura due to blood bond (or in later continuities the sexism), but you'd think he'd take it for sentimental reasons or destroy it as the ultimate insult. Instead he just leaves it in the dirt? And even if someone some how managed to get it back to the castle and give it to Linde, when we first meet her she's at a slave auction. The slavers really didn't search her and take this ornate book off of her? Well I guess they also didn't realize she was a girl so that might check out, amateur hour slavers, but if that's the case...why was Linde a slave? If she had Aura on her then surely she could have fought off the ruffians that accosted her? Maybe she didn't want to draw attention to herself by having a big light show...but her alternative was slavery. There's not much lower than that you can go.

All in all I think it would have made a lot more sense if Aura was found in the castle in the following chapter. But I guess because of it's plot relevance they'd want to give it some fanfare rather than put it in a chest. And they were already giving you Parthia at the end of that map so I things could be simplified by just having it be in Linde's inventory and her recruitment being the plot relevant part of Aura's introduction. Still, once you think about it it does strain belief that the book could wind up in her hands and then stay in her hands after everything that happened. Specifically in comparison to Marth who consistently loses Falchion.

Also insert some kind of joke about Genealogy of the Holy War's inheritance mechanic.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

The player is able to obtain a second Aura tome at the Alterspire (same with Excalibur), so I think it's a mistake to assume that there's only one Aura tome out there. It's possible that Gharnef did, in fact, rob Miloah of his tome... but that Miloah had transcribed another, which he then passed down to Linde.

Anyway, a tangential thought I've had lately is, it feels like Aura and Starlight should've been one and the same tome. The notion of rival students, one with a tome that grants immunity to all harm, and the other with a tome that uniquely cuts through that effect, is an inherently tantalizing dynamic. It raises the stakes for Gharnef, who isn't really threatened by Aura as-is, while giving Miloah and Linde a bit more relevance to the overall story. Plus, they're both supposed to be semi-legendary light-based spells, meaning their coexistence is almost redundant.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Maybe Est stole that one back too. Crafty little minx

[Jotari]

30 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The player is able to obtain a second Aura tome at the Alterspire (same with Excalibur), so I think it's a mistake to assume that there's only one Aura tome out there. It's possible that Gharnef did, in fact, rob Miloah of his tome... but that Miloah had transcribed another, which he then passed down to Linde.

Anyway, a tangential thought I've had lately is, it feels like Aura and Starlight should've been one and the same tome. The notion of rival students, one with a tome that grants immunity to all harm, and the other with a tome that uniquely cuts through that effect, is an inherently tantalizing dynamic. It raises the stakes for Gharnef, who isn't really threatened by Aura as-is, while giving Miloah and Linde a bit more relevance to the overall story. Plus, they're both supposed to be semi-legendary light-based spells, meaning their coexistence is almost redundant.

I did consider that, but I don't think that's the implication. She says she can specifically use the tome her father left for her. As for the Alterspire, well that's a whole other world. So of course unique items like Aura, Excalibur and Falchion could exist there. It isn't the Aura, it's the Aura of that world.

Edit: Oh wait, I see what you mean. She inherited a tome from her father, and Gharnef destroyed another...in which case I ask, why can't Linde inscribe more herself so I don't have to be so paranoid about using it up T.T

Edited July 4, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

I mean, there's no indication that Miloah had Aura with him when Gharnef killed him. Heck, it might be because he knew his life was threatened (it was no secret Gharnef wanted Aura to begin with and resented not being chosen to wield it), that he gave Aura to Linde and told her to flee should anything happen to him.

Also, there might've been too many slavers to try to fight her way out. More so if you take the original game, where the slaver's portrait is an edited Manakete portrait. I've always felt that had some implications. Anyway, even if not, perhaps Linde thought it'd be easier to get away from one person (whoever bought her), than trying to get away from a larger crowd (the slavers). To her good fortune Marth happened to come and save her the trouble anyway.

In any case, it's really unnecessary to try to complicate things. She has the tome, which means she fled with it. We also don't know for how long was she captured. It might've been just minutes ago, before she could even think on using it to escape.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I did consider that, but I don't think that's the implication. She says she can specifically use the tome her father left for her. As for the Alterspire, well that's a whole other world. So of course unique items like Aura, Excalibur and Falchion could exist there. It isn't the Aura, it's the Aura of that world.

The Alterspire is very interesting, in that there are a number of enemy classes there (Swordmaster, Warrior, Berserker) that you just... never encounter otherwise in the game. Whether that was the devs being lazy by not integrating the "new" classes into existing maps, or a deliberate design decision - who's to say? I tended to interpret it as just being a very remote island. But if it's supposed to be an alternate world - what we might now call an "outrealm" - then I suppose it's a fair notion, that another Aura existing there doesn't mean Archanea itself had multiple Auras.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Edit: Oh wait, I see what you mean. She inherited a tome from her father, and Gharnef destroyed another...in which case I ask, why can't Linde inscribe more herself so I don't have to be so paranoid about using it up T.T

Now, that would come in handy. It's interesting that we never see tomes being created. Are they written out by hand, or has anyone come up with the printing press? Maybe magical quills to write them automatically? And when they're "used up", do they disappear, or just lose their magical potential? And why, of all people, would the Blacksmith know how to repair or improve a book of spells?

Hm... the more I think about it, the more I like how Valentia and Fódlan handled magic. Side-stepping the question of tomes entirely, and just making magic an ability that some people have at birth, or can grow and train themselves into. Makes more sense, in that light, for a certain spell to be linked to a certain person or bloodline. 

EDIT: Building off what @Acacia Sgt said, Linde fighting off her would-be captors with Aura only makes sense if she's one-shotting them. If not, they can strike back, and probably kill her.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Added @

[Acacia Sgt]

21 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The Alterspire is very interesting, in that there are a number of enemy classes there (Swordmaster, Warrior, Berserker) that you just... never encounter otherwise in the game. Whether that was the devs being lazy by not integrating the "new" classes into existing maps, or a deliberate design decision - who's to say? I tended to interpret it as just being a very remote island. But if it's supposed to be an alternate world - what we might now call an "outrealm" - then I suppose it's a fair notion, that another Aura existing there doesn't mean Archanea itself had multiple Auras.

The script does state it is in another world.

21 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Now, that would come in handy. It's interesting that we never see tomes being created. Are they written out by hand, or has anyone come up with the printing press? Maybe magical quills to write them automatically? And when they're "used up", do they disappear, or just lose their magical potential? And why, of all people, would the Blacksmith know how to repair or improve a book of spells?

Well, at least in Archanea, tomes and staves are meant to be batteries hosting raw magical energy so the caster wouldn't have to use their own. The reason Valentian magic costs HP is because they are still using the old method of magic casting. At least in Kaga's notes, tomes and staves were dragon technology that Gotoh introduced to humanity fifty years ago, stablishing Khadein as a way to teach them. The method for creating tomes and staves would spread across the continent, hence shops all over carrying them.

It's also worth pointing out that in Kaga's notes, Aura was also powered with a Dragonstone.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I mean, there's no indication that Miloah had Aura with him when Gharnef killed him. Heck, it might be because he knew his life was threatened (it was no secret Gharnef wanted Aura to begin with and resented not being chosen to wield it), that he gave Aura to Linde and told her to flee should anything happen to him.

Also, there might've been too many slavers to try to fight her way out. More so if you take the original game, where the slaver's portrait is an edited Manakete portrait. I've always felt that had some implications. Anyway, even if not, perhaps Linde thought it'd be easier to get away from one person (whoever bought her), than trying to get away from a larger crowd (the slavers). To her good fortune Marth happened to come and save her the trouble anyway.

In any case, it's really unnecessary to try to complicate things. She has the tome, which means she fled with it. We also don't know for how long was she captured. It might've been just minutes ago, before she could even think on using it to escape.

I guess it's also possible the slavers did take the tome away and it was lying in a box near where Marth saved her and she just took it from there. Still it is odd given the very next chapter has imprisoned characters who actually do have empty inventories. It's not like Linde had to be found with slavers as a village recruit. The story wouldn't be odd at all if she was just hiding out in the village (though there was still some need to show that slavery was running rampant under the new reigime).

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I guess it's also possible the slavers did take the tome away and it was lying in a box near where Marth saved her and she just took it from there. Still it is odd given the very next chapter has imprisoned characters who actually do have empty inventories. It's not like Linde had to be found with slavers as a village recruit. The story wouldn't be odd at all if she was just hiding out in the village (though there was still some need to show that slavery was running rampant under the new reigime).

Well, it goes back to just how long Linde likely spent prisoner of the slavers. Boah and company have been there for weeks, perhaps even months. So of course they'd be empty handed. So her things being in the slavers' hands and they get recovered off-screen works just as well.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[X-Naut]

1) At least one Meet the Heroes page states that Miloah was assassinated by Gharnef, meaning he likely warped straight into their home for a one-on-one. So he was in the right place to pass it to Linde on his deathbed.

2) One of Gharnef's lines in Heroes suggests he was confident that Linde was powerless to do anything, so he probably gave her a running start and left her to suffer without her dear old daddy.

3) Linde's disguise was a big bulky robe, she had ample room to hide it under there with the rest of her identity.

4) Being a slave probably beat roaming the land homeless. She had little experience with the world outside Archanea's palace, and it offered some form of sustenance and shelter. I doubt she wanted to end up there, but realized it was better than nothing and that trying to escape was suicide.

5) It's the middle of a bloody war. Not the ideal time to sell slaves... build up a stock, maybe, but you're not going to find many buyers until the dust settles. Hence she could slip under the radar with such a simple disguise; they weren't performing thorough background checks yet.

 

That's my five points on the matter. It's not that far-fetched IMO.

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

1) At least one Meet the Heroes page states that Miloah was assassinated by Gharnef, meaning he likely warped straight into their home for a one-on-one. So he was in the right place to pass it to Linde on his deathbed.

I don't recall where it's said, but I remember some line saying he died in a valley. Could be complete fantasy of my mind though.

10 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

4) Being a slave probably beat roaming the land homeless. She had little experience with the world outside Archanea's palace, and it offered some form of sustenance and shelter. I doubt she wanted to end up there, but realized it was better than nothing and that trying to escape was suicide.

That is really not a guarantee.

10 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

5) It's the middle of a bloody war. Not the ideal time to sell slaves... build up a stock, maybe, but you're not going to find many buyers until the dust settles. Hence she could slip under the radar with such a simple disguise; they weren't performing thorough background checks yet.

The war would have actually been pretty distant from Knorda. Aurelis had held out for two years, but I highly doubt Medeus mustered the same amount of force as he put on Archanea (which also held out for two years). It seems to have just been Macedon trying to take Aurelis, while Grust was controlling Archanea unopposed. Aurelis certainly wasn't sending any counter attacks into central Archanea at the very least. And the slaver does try to sell to Marth when he shows up, at least in the NES and SNES, in Shadow Dragon, or at least the English translation, the explicit slavery of the situation seems to have been omitted. And munching manaketes, I just looked at the script and Nyna some how knew Linde was sold to the slave market on the SNES! That makes very little sense at all, as Linde is expressly in disguise, the slavers themselves think they only have boys. Strange they would add a line that makes so little sense like that and then just remove it. Nyna expressly says she doesn't know where Linde is in the other versions. Though I guess it does help tell you how to recruit her, if you can somehow connect ruffian infested village area with slave market.

[Acacia Sgt]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

or at least the English translation, the explicit slavery of the situation seems to have been omitted.

From what I had glimpsed on the Japanese scripts, the mentions of slavery were also removed in the Japanese version of Shadow Dragon.

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Strange they would add a line that makes so little sense like that and then just remove it.

I'd guess precisely because it made little sense. Also since a lot of script changes made for Book 1 were not retained in Shadow Dragon... since, you know, remake of the first game and all that...

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Nyna expressly says she doesn't know where Linde is in the other versions. Though I guess it does help tell you how to recruit her, if you can somehow connect ruffian infested village area with slave market.

Oh, no need, considering that in every non Shadow Dragon version, the chapter title is Slave Market of Knorda. So... five second foreshadowing. lol

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Oh, no need, considering that in every non Shadow Dragon version, the chapter title is Slave Market of Knorda. So... five second foreshadowing. lol

It's a bit of a funny name for the chapter in either case. As, I assume, Knorda Market is just the village in the south east, while the rest of the map leading up to the Millennium Court, ie the main part of the map both on a gameplay and narrative level, is not Knorda.

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's a bit of a funny name for the chapter in either case. As, I assume, Knorda Market is just the village in the south east, while the rest of the map leading up to the Millennium Court, ie the main part of the map both on a gameplay and narrative level, is not Knorda.

Pretty much. And one of the houses in there outright tells you that the place is Knorda.

For all intents and purposes you are expected to head there first. Or at least send Marth first to Knorda.

[X-Naut]

53 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And munching manaketes, I just looked at the script and Nyna some how knew Linde was sold to the slave market on the SNES! That makes very little sense at all, as Linde is expressly in disguise, the slavers themselves think they only have boys. Strange they would add a line that makes so little sense like that and then just remove it.

I think it would be stranger if they added a line that makes so little sense and then kept it in a remake.

I'm not going to quote the rest of your post to keep it thin, but there's a lot about that situation up in the air. Archanea fell around the same time Marth escaped Altea, so Linde could have spent between two to three years on the run, how much of that in Knorda I don't know. There's only so much that can be assumed; but I would think Miloah died around the time the palace fell, given he was one of its defenders.

One other detail I neglected to mention regarding a slow slave market is Dolhr's allies. General Camus was effectively Pales' warden until he helped Nyna fly the coop, and it's unlikely he or his subordinates had a taste for slavery. So it's possible that his presence and perhaps continued Grustian presence afterwards suppressed the markets, and all they could do was bide time.

And that bit about Gharnef assassinating Miloah is Heroes supplemental material, so take it with a grain of salt if you want. But it's totally in character with Gharnef to want the deed for himself, and I wouldn't put it past him to sabotage Dolhr's efforts until they located his home within the palace.

[Acacia Sgt]

20 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

I'm not going to quote the rest of your post to keep it thin, but there's a lot about that situation up in the air. Archanea fell around the same time Marth escaped Altea, so Linde could have spent between two to three years on the run, how much of that in Knorda I don't know. There's only so much that can be assumed; but I would think Miloah died around the time the palace fell, given he was one of its defenders.

I do remember the script saying Miloah was killed by Gharnef around the time Archanea fell. So yes, Linde being AWOL for that long is possible.

Though she also says she was captured not long after escaping. Which is... a bit odd, if she's referring to the very people you're rescuing her from.

20 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

One other detail I neglected to mention regarding a slow slave market is Dolhr's allies. General Camus was effectively Pales' warden until he helped Nyna fly the coop, and it's unlikely he or his subordinates had a taste for slavery. So it's possible that his presence and perhaps continued Grustian presence afterwards suppressed the markets, and all they could do was bide time.

I would agree on this. The slave market only flourishing after Camus got replaced does make sense.

20 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

And that bit about Gharnef assassinating Miloah is Heroes supplemental material, so take it with a grain of salt if you want. But it's totally in character with Gharnef to want the deed for himself, and I wouldn't put it past him to sabotage Dolhr's efforts until they located his home within the palace.

No, it's not from Heroes. That was already known long before it.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I do remember the script saying Miloah was killed by Gharnef around the time Archanea fell. So yes, Linde being AWOL for that long is possible.

Though she also says she was captured not long after escaping. Which is... a bit odd, if she's referring to the very people you're rescuing her from.

I would agree on this. The slave market only flourishing after Camus got replaced does make sense.

It's a bit hard to reconsile. Either the slave market was flourishing the entire time and Camus didn't care, with Linde being passed from slaver to slaver until Marth showed up (and none of them ever finding out she was a girl, because if they did know they would be... advertising her differently) or Linde was with a particular group of slavers who kept her as their own slave for two years until Camus was gone and they had their chance to be more public about their business (again never finding out she's a girl). And in either scenario Linde has to have or at least be near Aura the entire time and never use it to escape. The simplest explanation is that Linde is somehow just wrong about her own origin story. I guess two years living rough for a late teens noble girl passed in the blink of an eye.

6 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

No, it's not from Heroes. That was already known long before it.

I think they might be referring specifically to the "assassinated" part, which conveys a bit if a different image to Miloah dying on the battlefield.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It's a bit hard to reconsile. Either the slave market was flourishing the entire time and Camus didn't care, with Linde being passed from slaver to slaver until Marth showed up (and none of them ever finding out she was a girl, because if they did know they would be... advertising her differently) or Linde was with a particular group of slavers who kept her as their own slave for two years until Camus was gone and they had their chance to be more public about their business (again never finding out she's a girl). And in either scenario Linde has to have or at least be near Aura the entire time and never use it to escape. The simplest explanation is that Linde is somehow just wrong about her own origin story. I guess two years living rough for a late teens noble girl passed in the blink of an eye.

I think this might be a localization problem.

Trying to look up the scripts, at least as best I can, none give a sense of time as what English Shadow Dragon does. The line "but no sooner was I away" doesn't seem to be there in any other script. At least in such a way.

The truth is that Linde might've just spent the two years on the run, disguise or not, and only when she went to Knorda at that particular time in disguise, she got caught.

[Aedan7479]

As far as I'm aware, using English translations as reference, it's never stated that Miloah died with Aura while defending Archanea. It's said he defended Archanea using Aura, but it doesn't say he died in that way. He and Linde also never mentioned in BS Fire Emblem (or the New Mystery version) when Archanea falls, which would be odd if he did die there. It would make sense if he did, but evidence and lack of evidence seems to imply otherwise.

In regards to when Miloah was killed and Linde fled, Shadow Dragon's script says that he was killed "soon after the fiend [Gharnaf] sold his soul to Dolhr." Which I assume means soon after Medeus was resurrected (in 597) but could mean after Dolhr was re-established (in 598), which is still four years before Archanea falls. No other script seems to give a rough time period. 

What makes the most sense to me is that before he's confronted by Gharnaf, when or where ever that is, he passes Aura on to Linde, because he would be well aware that Imhullu makes one invulnerable if some random guy in house knows. There may be some official notes somewhere with the full story, but that’s just what I came up with.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Aedan7479 said:

As far as I'm aware, using English translations as reference, it's never stated that Miloah died with Aura while defending Archanea. It's said he defended Archanea using Aura, but it doesn't say he died in that way. He and Linde also never mentioned in BS Fire Emblem (or the New Mystery version) when Archanea falls, which would be odd if he did die there. It would make sense if he did, but evidence and lack of evidence seems to imply otherwise.

In regards to when Miloah was killed and Linde fled, Shadow Dragon's script says that he was killed "soon after the fiend [Gharnaf] sold his soul to Dolhr." Which I assume means soon after Medeus was resurrected (in 597) but could mean after Dolhr was re-established (in 598), which is still four years before Archanea falls. No other script seems to give a rough time period. 

What makes the most sense to me is that before he's confronted by Gharnaf, when or where ever that is, he passes Aura on to Linde, because he would be well aware that Imhullu makes one invulnerable if some random guy in house knows. There may be some official notes somewhere with the full story, but that’s just what I came up with.

It can't be as early as 598 as he needs to actually defend Archanea using Aura at some point, even if he isn't killed with it, and the war doesn't start until 600.  And while it would have been really nice for him to be mentioned in Archanea saga, that doesn't really equate to him not dying around that time. Archanea Saga details the fall of the palace itself, he could have died on the approach to the palace (I mentioned earlier recalling somewhere that he died in a valley, I've looked and I'm starting to become sure it's a face I invented, but its not the craziest headcanon in the world to think that he died on the approach between Knorda and the Millennium Court).

[Aedan7479]

41 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It can't be as early as 598 as he needs to actually defend Archanea using Aura at some point, even if he isn't killed with it, and the war doesn't start until 600.  And while it would have been really nice for him to be mentioned in Archanea saga, that doesn't really equate to him not dying around that time. Archanea Saga details the fall of the palace itself, he could have died on the approach to the palace (I mentioned earlier recalling somewhere that he died in a valley, I've looked and I'm starting to become sure it's a face I invented, but its not the craziest headcanon in the world to think that he died on the approach between Knorda and the Millennium Court).

'Defending Archanea using Aura' is pretty vague, does it mean the country, or the continent, during war, or from Bandits and Pirates? This is might be more like a headcanon, but I imagine that Miloah and Linde travelled quite a bit, considering Linde never saw Khadein before the war, and she says her Father was the only teacher and friend she had. Again, that's using Shadow Dragon as reference, so that's not necessarily the original intention.

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Aedan7479 said:

'Defending Archanea using Aura' is pretty vague, does it mean the country, or the continent, during war, or from Bandits and Pirates? This is might be more like a headcanon, but I imagine that Miloah and Linde travelled quite a bit, considering Linde never saw Khadein before the war, and she says her Father was the only teacher and friend she had. Again, that's using Shadow Dragon as reference, so that's not necessarily the original intention.

I guess it's technically possible, though I don't think that's what the game wants you to think. It feels very much like he was intended to have died in the war. At the very least it makes Linde's missing time even more obfuscating as, if she died two years before the war started and thus four years before Archanea fell, then what was she doing for all that time? Wandering the continent having a strong of adventures she just never mentions?