I feel bad for Sternlin

[Jotari]

I'm on a real Archanean binge at the moment. Partially because I've been working on an Archanean fan game for the past year, but also because I made that thread about Shiida's father the other day and it's put me on to reading the manga, which is actually pretty great. It's nice to see the Archanean characters actually playing a role in the story. Anyway, I'm at the Port Warren section of the story where Marth's army is forced to retreat (no Pyrathi in the manga, unfortunately) and the manga does something that I've always felt the games should have done, actually have a high level enemy commander be present to force the retreat. The story is meant to be that Marth is forced out of Warren but really it's about squeezing through a choke point to hit the undefended castle. Anyway the characters assume that the commander in charge is Camus because it's Grust and all, so Nyna like the love strick idiot she is sneaks off in the middle of the night to meet him. Only shocker, the commander isn't Camus, it's his number 2...original character Rowen (no, not the Warriors guy).

It's at this point another old feeling resurfaced for me. The pity I feel for Sternlin. Because, you see, Camus has a canonical number 2, and he's been straight up ignored repeatedly throughout the series.

He's the boss of the bridge chapter of Shadow Dragon, entitled The Sable Order. The disrespect began in Old Mystery when his chapter was removed from Book 1, even though it probably didn't even save any data to remove it considering the map itself is in Book 2. Then we got the manga I've mentioned, where the author completely ignored him and invented a new character to play the exact same role. Then he got his biggest insult. When they decided to make Archanean Saga and actually have Sable Knights other than Camus playable, he's nowhere to be seen! We get Belf, Reiden and Roberto. No offense to those guys, they're cool and all, but any one of them could have been Sternlin. There's an existing character on the roster, use him, don't invent a new one! Isn't it more interesting to see a random boss Marth killed acting like a good guy in a different scenario?

Eventually Shadow Dragon got remade. Surely now they'd expand on Sternlin. Why didn't he play a part in saving Nyna? What's his relationship to Camus? Is he only in charge because he's more politically loyal to Dolhr? Or is he loyal to Camus and takes command in his place to honor him? Or is he more neutral toeing the line, liking Camus but not wanting to cause any more trouble? Will Belf, Reiden and Roberto show up? After all, they're characters who exist now and should be fighting in the war somewhere. It feels like anything you could do with them would be inherently interesting, but they choose to do nothing at all. When Nyna asks who the enemy commander is for The Sable Order Marth literally doesn't know or care. And the only dialogue Sterlin gets is quoting Gandalf (you shall not pass). They also officially made his English name Sterlin when it looks like it should be Stallone (which maybe I'm just a Rocky fan, but that sounds cooler).

The dude has been shafted ever since his creation and it's an atrocious shame. I suppose we should blame who ever decided he should get the generic weighty general portrait on NES.

This wouldn't have happened if he was designed to be hot from the start.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

Now I'm curious. Is there a manga that is based on the original game and not Book 1 of Mystery? From the sound of it, you are reading a Mystery of the Emblem manga, not a Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light one. Hence the bits missing matching. Then again, Marth forced to retreat from Warren is something Book 1 actually dropped, so the manga having it is... hmm...

Anyway... I wonder if the lack of the big force was mostly technical limitations, and Shadow Dragon just being too faithful of a remake in that aspect. At least we know it was doable by the time of Genealogy, since we do see Lombard and Reptor with lots of soldiers on the map when they come to apprehend Sigurd. On the subject of the Sable trio, it is stated they deserted the army to personally accompany Camus in his mission to escort Nyna to Aurelis, so it stands to reason Camus wouldn't let them rejoin the Sable Order for their safety (or rather, he couldn't, since he spent quite some time in custody). So that's why they wouldn't show up for the War of Shadows. Perhaps a cameo appearance woudl've been doable, but again, Shadow Dragon was too faithful in that sense.

Still, it's perhaps a bit of an assumption to make Sternlin is Camus' deputy commander, just for being the boss during Chapter 18. Camus spent quite some time away from the Sable Order when enduring Medeus' punishment. He certainly wasn't back by that time if he wasn't back to leading them. So it's hard to say. He could've been recently appointed to the position, like Volzhin, for all we know.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Now I'm curious. Is there a manga that is based on the original game and not Book 1 of Mystery? From the sound of it, you are reading a Mystery of the Emblem manga, not a Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light one. Hence the bits missing matching. Then again, Marth forced to retreat from Warren is something Book 1 actually dropped, so the manga having it is... hmm...

Yeah, it's a Book 1 Manga. No Wrys or Pyrathi. Despite that, as far as I can tell, it ends prematurely when Marth takes back Altea.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Anyway... I wonder if the lack of the big force was mostly technical limitations, and Shadow Dragon just being too faithful of a remake in that aspect. At least we know it was doable by the time of Genealogy, since we do see Lombard and Reptor with lots of soldiers on the map when they come to apprehend Sigurd. On the subject of the Sable trio, it is stated they deserted the army to personally accompany Camus in his mission to escort Nyna to Aurelis, so it stands to reason Camus wouldn't let them rejoin the Sable Order for their safety (or rather, he couldn't, since he spent quite some time in custody). So that's why they wouldn't show up for the War of Shadows. Perhaps a cameo appearance woudl've been doable, but again, Shadow Dragon was too faithful in that sense.

Didn't necessarily need a big army. A powerful unit could have sold the point just as well. An end game boss like Xemcel would be pretty tough to best if he were moving with other units.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Still, it's perhaps a bit of an assumption to make Sternlin is Camus' deputy commander, just for being the boss during Chapter 18. Camus spent quite some time away from the Sable Order when enduring Medeus' punishment. He certainly wasn't back by that time if he wasn't back to leading them. So it's hard to say. He could've been recently appointed to the position, like Volzhin, for all we know.

He must be pretty high up to be commanding them in Camus' absence. And we see no indication at all that he's not a genuine Sable Order member.

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, it's a Book 1 Manga. No Wrys or Pyrathi. Despite that, as far as I can tell, it ends prematurely when Marth takes back Altea.

There are other mangas. Though another I know ends right before the final battle. So finding one which is actually complete... but I'm pretty sure there is one out there.

If not... try the novelization?

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Didn't necessarily need a big army. A powerful unit could have sold the point just as well. An end game boss like Xemcel would be pretty tough to best if he were moving with other units.

I suppose, but then the point is that they're meant to arrive at the post-battle "cutscene", and there's no way to show stats or anything, so just the one guy, even if it's a late-game boss, would still not quite convey the point of urgency.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

He must be pretty high up to be commanding them in Camus' absence. And we see no indication at all that he's not a genuine Sable Order member.

That's true, too.

[Jotari]

38 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

There are other mangas. Though another I know ends right before the final battle. So finding one which is actually complete... but I'm pretty sure there is one out there.

I should note that already it has actually done more to tie the two stories together by briefly mentioned the Grust royals (though it shows shadows of their Book 2 design, when they should look quite a bit younger given how big a difference three years would make to kids of that approximate age). Not mentioning the Grust royals at all in Book 1 or Shadow Dragon is quite baffling as it's kind of hugely important for how we see Grust.

38 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

If not... try the novelization?

I suppose, but then the point is that they're meant to arrive at the post-battle "cutscene", and there's no way to show stats or anything, so just the one guy, even if it's a late-game boss, would still not quite convey the point of urgency.

I'm not suggesting a post battle cutscene. I'm suggesting gameplay story integration by actually fielding an army you can't beat and have to flee from.

38 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's true, too.

Closest would be him lacking the fancy white coats the Sable Trio have (a particularly strange choice for a legion known as the Sable Order, maybe they originally donned that attire specifically because it was a covert treasonous mission but now with New Mystery it's just become their design). Even so, unlike Volzhin, he definitely is from Grust as the clothing he does wear is consistent with the other Grust generals in the game, and it would be weird for anyone from Grust not if the Sable Order to command their most elite units.

Another oddity about that chapter I just noticed. Est flies in from the west. There is nothing in that direction. Shadow Dragon is otherwise very consistent about which direction you're coming from. If you're moving to the left of the map then Marth is moving west in the story. And the Sable Order chapter in particular is no different with you visibly crossing the bridges into Grust territory. Yet Est comes from the west and there is nothing in that direction (at least until you hit Valentia). Well I guess it is a bit consistent with her to have a poor sense of direction.

[Acacia Sgt]

43 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I should note that already it has actually done more to tie the two stories together by briefly mentioned the Grust royals (though it shows shadows of their Book 2 design, when they should look quite a bit younger given how big a difference three years would make to kids of that approximate age). Not mentioning the Grust royals at all in Book 1 or Shadow Dragon is quite baffling as it's kind of hugely important for how we see Grust.

Well, Shadow Dragon, as always, because faithful remake. You're right about Book 1 failing to bring them up. Heck, even Sheena got name-dropped by Jiol in his death quote, after all...

43 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm not suggesting a post battle cutscene. I'm suggesting gameplay story integration by actually fielding an army you can't beat and have to flee from.

And that's kinda the point. They flee before the main army arrives. Integration would be what Genealogy did for the end of Chapter 3: Big army shows up after the gameplay segment is done.

43 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Closest would be him lacking the fancy white coats the Sable Trio have (a particularly strange choice for a legion known as the Sable Order, maybe they originally donned that attire specifically because it was a covert treasonous mission but now with New Mystery it's just become their design). Even so, unlike Volzhin, he definitely is from Grust as the clothing he does wear is consistent with the other Grust generals in the game, and it would be weird for anyone from Grust not if the Sable Order to command their most elite units.

Yeah, I'd chalk up the white jackets as them having already renounced the Sable Order. Unless it's the armor that's meant to be black, not the clothes... but then Sternlin's armor is purple. However, if he wasn't actually Sable Order to begin with...

Well, Camus is indisposed and the King is weak-willed. Medeus can pretty much do whatever he wants, basically. Sternlin could be someone willing to obey him, even if he's a Grust native. Someone loyal to him to keep the Sable Order under more direct control and all that...

43 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Another oddity about that chapter I just noticed. Est flies in from the west. There is nothing in that direction. Shadow Dragon is otherwise very consistent about which direction you're coming from. If you're moving to the left of the map then Marth is moving west in the story. And the Sable Order chapter in particular is no different with you visibly crossing the bridges into Grust territory. Yet Est comes from the west and there is nothing in that direction (at least until you hit Valentia). Well I guess it is a bit consistent with her to have a poor sense of direction.

Despite how the chapter map looks, looking at the world map, and considering where the bridge is, there's more land to the southwest. Even the main Grust island is more westward than the bridge. So Est could likely just flew north-bound, and keeping her distance from the battle, reached the channel/river first before moving east towards the bridge.

It's best seen with Mystery of the Emblem's map:

You can easily see how Est could come from west of the bridge. Chiasmir is on the east side, and the Raman island northern coastline actually goes north as you travel west from the southern bridge.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, Shadow Dragon, as always, because faithful remake. You're right about Book 1 failing to bring them up. Heck, even Sheena got name-dropped by Jiol in his death quote, after all...

And that's kinda the point. They flee before the main army arrives. Integration would be what Genealogy did for the end of Chapter 3: Big army shows up after the gameplay segment is done.

But, like, it doesn't have to be that way. Fleeing before they arrive could very much be they spawn on chapter 10 and you need to end the chapter right now.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeah, I'd chalk up the white jackets as them having already renounced the Sable Order. Unless it's the armor that's meant to be black, not the clothes... but then Sternlin's armor is purple. However, if he wasn't actually Sable Order to begin with...

Camus has pretty dark clothes in his offical Shadow Dragon art, for what it's worth. Though his actual portrait it's more of a muddy brownish colour. But then he's the leader so who knows what special outfit he'd be wearing.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, Camus is indisposed and the King is weak-willed. Medeus can pretty much do whatever he wants, basically. Sternlin could be someone willing to obey him, even if he's a Grust native. Someone loyal to him to keep the Sable Order under more direct control and all that...

I reckon it's more Gharnef than Medeus. If I recall correctly, I'm not going to bother checking the unit numbers now, but the only Manakete activity we seeing Grust itself is with Tiki, and Gharnef suggests Medeus doesn't know about her. It's also Gharnef holding onto the royal twins personally.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Despite how the chapter map looks, looking at the world map, and considering where the bridge is, there's more land to the southwest. Even the main Grust island is more westward than the bridge. So Est could likely just flew north-bound, and keeping her distance from the battle, reached the channel/river first before moving east towards the bridge.

It's best seen with Mystery of the Emblem's map:

You can easily see how Est could come from west of the bridge. Chiasmir is on the east side, and the Raman island northern coastline actually goes north as you travel west from the southern bridge.

That's the SNES world map specifically (where Est doesn't actually do this). The DS world map doesn't have such a protruding headland. Then of course there's the little known NES world map

Yes that northern wilderness with the ice temple was kind of a retcon. And everything was a bit more elongated north to south (unless that's how it was printed, but it doesn't feel like it with the other aspects of the image). For the purpose of Est specifically though Grust was originally conceived without that headland. Though Est must have come from the south given she says she stole Mercurius from Grust (though since we're being so technical I don't think she specifies that it actually was in Grust). It might be mostly a gameplay practicality. They didn't want her flying through the enemy army as that would make little sense but it would have been difficult to make her specifically avoid them (especially with the dedication of not having a third army type).  So just spawning her away from all enemies and setting her ai to hone in on Marth makes things simple.

[Acacia Sgt]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

But, like, it doesn't have to be that way. Fleeing before they arrive could very much be they spawn on chapter 10 and you need to end the chapter right now.

Ultimately, it is the way it was chosen. The army had to return to their posts, for all we know, or Deil becomes another "let's flee before they arrive" situation.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

I reckon it's more Gharnef than Medeus. If I recall correctly, I'm not going to bother checking the unit numbers now, but the only Manakete activity we seeing Grust itself is with Tiki, and Gharnef suggests Medeus doesn't know about her. It's also Gharnef holding onto the royal twins personally.

Doesn't stop Medeus. He doesn't need to be the one doing that sort of stuff to do stuff like appoint Volzhin or Sternlin (if applicable) to their posts. Heck, that would be even less Gharnef's job since he's more of doing more covert stuff.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's the SNES world map specifically (where Est doesn't actually do this). The DS world map doesn't have such a protruding headland.

It does.

In fact, the channel is narrower in this map. It also kinda makes it look like the central island got fused with the mainland, but ultimately Chiasmir is still where it is, and the Raman island still has that northern protrusion in its northwest, from where Est could easily come from.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Then of course there's the little known NES world map

Yes that northern wilderness with the ice temple was kind of a retcon. And everything was a bit more elongated north to south (unless that's how it was printed, but it doesn't feel like it with the other aspects of the image). For the purpose of Est specifically though Grust was originally conceived without that headland. Though Est must have come from the south given she says she stole Mercurius from Grust (though since we're being so technical I don't think she specifies that it actually was in Grust). It might be mostly a gameplay practicality. They didn't want her flying through the enemy army as that would make little sense but it would have been difficult to make her specifically avoid them (especially with the dedication of not having a third army type).  So just spawning her away from all enemies and setting her ai to hone in on Marth makes things simple.

The map is certainly too stylized. But yes, ultimately it still doesn't stop Est from simply flying around the enemies, so arriving from the west is not odd in the end.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Ultimately, it is the way it was chosen. The army had to return to their posts, for all we know, or Deil becomes another "let's flee before they arrive" situation.

Sorry, I meant Turn 10, not Chapter 10.

[Acacia Sgt]

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Sorry, I meant Turn 10, not Chapter 10.

Ah, I get what you mean. Yeah, having powerful reinforcements show up would've worked. I suppose they didn't want to impose such a time limit on the player, then. Unless the reinforcement were coded to not move or attack on their own... but then there'd be no point to them being there then.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

That´s what he gets for bringing only horses with one priest. 

Could have waited or attacked on either side in the field, but no, let´s charge on this narrow as fuck bridge.

 

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Ah, I get what you mean. Yeah, having powerful reinforcements show up would've worked. I suppose they didn't want to impose such a time limit on the player, then. Unless the reinforcement were coded to not move or attack on their own... but then there'd be no point to them being there then.

I'd say it's more a case of "we didn't think of chapter goals any more complicated than seize" in 1990 and they've just stuck to that ever since (even in Book 1 and 2 you need to seize after killing Medeus).

5 hours ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

That´s what he gets for bringing only horses with one priest. 

Could have waited or attacked on either side in the field, but no, let´s charge on this narrow as fuck bridge.

 

Holding the bridge would probably be the best tactic they have I'd say in my very inexpert opinion. This is Grust's border. They need to play defensively and a narrow choke point like that is perfect. Marth only really wins because "player character" (and ridersbanes). While the Camus chapter is certainly more dramatic, this is really where Grust loses the war. That being said they should have garrisoned the middle island and used the Fane coast as an area to fall back on. 

[Acacia Sgt]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Holding the bridge would probably be the best tactic they have I'd say in my very inexpert opinion. This is Grust's border. They need to play defensively and a narrow choke point like that is perfect. Marth only really wins because "player character" (and ridersbanes). While the Camus chapter is certainly more dramatic, this is really where Grust loses the war. That being said they should have garrisoned the middle island and used the Fane coast as an area to fall back on. 

I'd say it was a combination of factors. First, Grust was never at its best until the very end, considering Camus could only take to the battlefield at the last minute, so they had to make due with lower ranking or experienced commanders, or they always kept the better ones close at home (like Lorenz). Second, they were destroyed piece meal. Lost part of their army in Archanea, then in Gra-Altea including the Wooden Cavalry which would've been a boon at Chiasmir since there's little room in the bridges for cover. Plus Macedon and Dohlr throwing them under the carriage since neither went to its defense (wyverns would've also been a boon to assault any forces crossing the bridges).

Simply put, the Sable Order was about the only force they still had more or less intact. Even in Chapter 20 it's like half Sable Order and half Grust soldiers proper.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say it was a combination of factors. First, Grust was never at its best until the very end, considering Camus could only take to the battlefield at the last minute, so they had to make due with lower ranking or experienced commanders, or they always kept the better ones close at home (like Lorenz). Second, they were destroyed piece meal. Lost part of their army in Archanea, then in Gra-Altea including the Wooden Cavalry which would've been a boon at Chiasmir since there's little room in the bridges for cover. Plus Macedon and Dohlr throwing them under the carriage since neither went to its defense (wyverns would've also been a boon to assault any forces crossing the bridges).

Simply put, the Sable Order was about the only force they still had more or less intact. Even in Chapter 20 it's like half Sable Order and half Grust soldiers proper.

Which is precisely why I say that knuckling down and defending a perfect choke point was their best strategy (as opposed to trying to flank or ambush on offensive gambits) and that battle was when they really lost the war.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Jotari

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

Holding the bridge would probably be the best tactic they have I'd say in my very inexpert opinion. This is Grust's border. They need to play defensively and a narrow choke point like that is perfect. Marth only really wins because "player character" (and ridersbanes). While the Camus chapter is certainly more dramatic, this is really where Grust loses the war. That being said they should have garrisoned the middle island and used the Fane coast as an area to fall back on. 

not that I´m an expert either, but cavalry doesn´t defend chokepoints, they charge the enemy line - certainly not on a 2 unit wide bridge

And they seem to have a castle and multiple forts at their side and even on the bridge itself, if they fortified and defended it Marth can either ignore it, which is bad because now he has an army in his back or he can siege it which is bad because 1) does he have siege equipment (Beck/Jake lol) and 2) the enemy has more time to rally their troops whatever they could be. I guess that opens the question of supplies but this isn´t something FE seems particularly concerned with anyway.

but hey, it´s a video game, the fuck do I know about medieval strategy, I drag and drop

Edited July 7, 2023 by Imuabicus der Fertige

[Jotari]

26 minutes ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

not that I´m an expert either, but cavalry doesn´t defend chokepoints, they charge the enemy line - certainly not on a 2 unit wide bridge

And they seem to have a castle and multiple forts at their side and even on the bridge itself, if they fortified and defended it Marth can either ignore it, which is bad because now he has an army in his back or he can siege it which is bad because 1) does he have siege equipment (Beck/Jake lol) and 2) the enemy has more time to rally their troops whatever they could be. I guess that opens the question of supplies but this isn´t something FE seems particularly concerned with anyway.

but hey, it´s a video game, the fuck do I know about medieval strategy, I drag and drop

Cavalry don't defent chokepoints, but men do. Sternlin needs to use the reclass feature!

And Marth probably does have siege engines, or some means of taking castles. He does do it literally every chapter (well when he's not taking a throne instead). Unless we're supposed to believe in canon he just kills one commander at the gate and is then allowed to waltz right in.

[Jotari]

According to the wiki Hollstadt, the boss of the Altea exterior chapter could be a member of the sable order too, as the paladins around him are labelled sable and he has a black palette. Though, being a general it's a bit more reasonable he wasn't retooled to one of he paladins in BS Saga. Shadow Dragon then removed such references (I don't think Shadow Dragon even had distinct unit palettes, enemy or ally, it's just red and blue for everyone). It makes sense part of the Sable Order was occupying Altea, as despite his supposed shote leash, Camus was somehow able to appear in a nearby Gra village to give Marth Thoron.

[Acacia Sgt]

They also weren't labeled Sable Order in the original either.

Mystery apparently put some effort to flesh out the enemies are meant to be in alliance, since there are also Macedon Dragoons in Book 1 for that map that the original and DS remake don't.