There is a thing that I honestly feel awkward about enemy recruitments lore-wise.

[Nozomi Kasaki]

Hello. I'm back again at trying to apply logic to a Japanese fantasy video game like Fire Emblem even though my takes can be very ignorant.

This is probably an ignorant take, but while I was watching iron man playthroughs in YouTube, I somehow kept asking myself: why are the Lords in the FE series allowing, or rather, seem to be very willing to let enemy characters who probably killed their close friends/close relatives/family member in battle?

I mean, I could somewhat understand Alear forgiving Veyle for "killing" Lumera (I put quotation marks on the word "killing" since Lumera technically died due to exhausting her powers on intercepting Veyle's spell to protect Alear since she was already exhausted after reviving Alear and all but you get what I mean right?) seeing as Alear is a kind person and all and that Veyle was being "controlled" by the other Veyle and stuff like that, but I'm not really sure the other Lords in the series are as forgiving or at least maybe tolerant as he is to recruited enemies who probably killed their closest loved ones during the gameplay battle (maybe Eirika and Celica though I am not sure). I don't know, I'm probably still too ignorant about the Lords' personalities and also usually always keep my units alive in the games as much as possible and also because I never really get to play other FE games that much to get to know about the Lords' characters and personalities. But even still…

I mean, for example, in FE6's Chapter 9, if either Sin or Fir killed Lilina, wouldn't that automatically remove the ability to recruit either of them even if you have Sue and Noah in your party? You know, like the same way Vestaria Saga removes the ability to recruit Ma'aya if you poison the well in Chapter 11? Okay, actually maybe they should still be recruitable, but I mean shouldn't Roy realistically be at least feel a bit reluctant to take them in and feel some resentment towards them? Like obviously not to the point of wanting to imprison or kill them or anything, but… you know? Like, they literally just killed Lilina, who is technically Roy's cousin and close friend, and it doesn't really help that both Sin and Fir are working with pirates/bandits. Even if Roy still haven't developed some romantic feelings for Lilina, surely he must at least feel pain for losing her, especially when Roy failed his promise to Hector to take care and protect Lilina. I know it's war and that people die in wars, but he should have at least feel emotional for her death, even if just a little bit. Yet for some reason, he doesn't seem to react or even care about Lilina's death whenever she dies in the game. I could've provided better examples for this like Delthea killing Gray or Faye, Alm's childhood friends (then again she was brainwashed so Alm may somewhat understand why she killed them, I don't know) but… yeah.

Sorry if this may seem a bit ignorant about the main characters of the other Fire Emblem Games. I don't really know much about the Lords of the other FE games as I haven't really finished their games aside from Engage and Three Houses. Maybe Roy and the other Lords in the FE series are matured enough to understand that people die in wars and that their closest relatives/buddies/family members are willing to risk their lives for their cause and would be willing to forgive the recruited enemy who killed them. Maybe the Lords still bear resentment to the recruited enemy who killed their loved ones, but decided to not let it get in the way of reaching their goal to end the war and defeat evil or whatever. Or maybe it's because the Lords' loved ones have plot armor and doesn't die even if they got defeated in Classic Mode.

Whatever the case is, it just feels a bit off that the Lords/MCs of the FE games seemed to have no problems letting the recruited enemies who killed their loved ones in the battlefield just join their army like they didn't kill their loved ones or whatever. It just seems like the Lords just forgive them and moved on way too easily.

What are your thoughts about this?

 

(Also, sorry for my poor English grammar.)

Edited July 6, 2023 by Nozomi Kasaki

[Acacia Sgt]

I'm gonna guess it's partly because it's too complex to code in for every single circumstance (plus all the dialogue variants, etc.), and also because it'd be too unfair to lose out on more units between being killed and recruitments being denied.

While in some games it is the case, in others it's not the Lords who are recruiting them anyway. So they could only react after the fact. To use Fir and Sin, it's not Roy who recruits them, but respectively Noah and Sue. In that case, Roy could only deny or properly welcome them after the battle is done. Then what if it wasn't Lilina, but someone else? Someone for whom it'd be less personal for Roy, like say, Ougier. So having to work in all those variables is just too much work for what would end up being further punishment to the player. So losing out on two units instead of just one. Hence why I feel it's too complex of a system to incorporate it. At least, to do it wholesale. One or two cases it can be fine, but more than that it's just not worth it. At least that's how I see it.

[Nozomi Kasaki]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

To use Fir and Sin, it's not Roy who recruits them, but respectively Noah and Sue. In that case, Roy could only deny or properly welcome them after the battle is done.

That's what I mean when I said about Roy "taking them in" as in welcoming them to the army. I'm not saying he is recruiting them, just that he would either reject or deny them, or just reluctantly accept them to the army if either of them killed Lilina even if he might feel some resentment to either of them depending on which of them killed her. Though, if you are referring to the part about removing the ability to recruit them… yeah I guess it makes sense that they would still be recruited by Sue and Noah regardless of what Roy thinks of them. It all just depends on whether Roy would accept them (willingly or otherwise) into the army or not. Though I'm suddenly curious on what would happen if Roy refused to take them in after either Fir or Sin killed Lilina. Or more interestingly, still decides to take them in even after murdering her… I wonder how Roy would be able to deal with the fact that he accepted the murderer(s) of his dear friend/cousin into his army? And how would Sin, Fir, Noah, and Sue would feel about all of this? More importantly though, how would the Ostians like Bors feel about all of this? Wouldn't they despise Sin and/or Fir for killing Lilina and then blame Roy for failing to protect her? So many question on top of my head…

In any case, I do see your point about it being too complex and being too much of a hassle to have all of this stuff being coded into the game. I just thought that it seemed way too easy for Roy and some other Lords to move on and forgive the murderers of their loved ones and accept them to their army. Sorry for my ignorant post.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Nozomi Kasaki

[ARMADS!!!]

 Well, Fire Emblem games don't tend to make the characters reconize when an enemy unit kills an ally in-game before beong recruited like that (I mean, when it's not something that mandatorily happens in the story), at least as far as I know. So yeah, you can have, say, Rutger Guy, Joshua or Karel kill a bunch of your units and it will not be aknowledged by the other characters that it was them who killed them, only that they died, I think that it's as if no one was looking at them when they were killing your units or something? Like, Roy would know that Lilina died but not that it was Fir who killed her, y'know?

 I don't know about FE Engage because I didn't play it and am not familiar with the story, but if you mean that Veyle killing Lumera was a mandatory thing then I'd find it strange that Alear doesn't think about it, From the top of my head I can think of a similar situation that happened on FE7 and it's definively reconized by the characters:

In FE7 Hector absolutely does not agree on recruiting Jaffar, since he killed 

Spoiler

Leila -his trusted spy and the girlfriend of another of his trusted spies (Matthew) that is also his friend-

some chapters back (before being recruited, during a cutscene) and all. I don't remember why Eliwood and Lyn even agree to recruiting Jaffar since they knew it affected Hector, as I remember Jaffar had a change of heart on his recruitment chapter by betraying the Black fang to save Nino and then agreeing on helping Eliwood's party since that's what Nino wanted, just because he wanted to stay at Nino's side and not because he gave a crap about the main characters or their cause, or something along this line, but even though, he had killed a friend of theirs so it was strange that they didn't have objections. Anyway neither Hector or Matthew are very fond of him AT ALL and Hector even threatened to kill him onscreen. Don't remember why Eliwood and Lyn didn't give Hector a choice on whether recruiting Jaffar or not, maybe it was because they thought that they could use his strength or something, but yeah at least the game made someone in the party be opposed to a "shady" recruitment for once. 

 It's not something that bothers me it's just that it really is strange that the lords are so forgiving, but alas, apart from Hector (and now Alear) I don't remember any other time when a recruitable character murdered someone that a lord cared about anyway.

 

 And of course, in FE8 we have

Spoiler

Orson

 who doesn't murder anyone but betrays Ephraim AFTER he is one of your units and he is absolutely not forgiven by anyone and then leaves your party immediately.

 

 

 But being used as a gameplay feature like that because they killed someone? Nope, I think it never happened (I'd like it to though).

 What we DO have as a gameplay feature is stuff like, for example, Luchar and Lucharba in FE4 who appear on the same chapter, both as enemies, and recruiting one will make you not be able to recruit the other because both of them can only be recruited by Larcei, who they are both in love with, so the one you didn't get her to talk first to will keep being your enemy out of jealousy. I think that there might be more cases of the "if you recruit this character, this other one will not be recruitable anymore" that result from story related events, but all the other ones I remember right now are decided by route splits or seemingly random choices (*cough FE6 and FE7 *cough), but if you look up "Arran and Samsom" archetype you might find something more relating to characters not joining you because you did something (AKA recruiting someone else) that makes them not want to be on your side, I think that's the closest you'll find to that.

 

EDIT: Of course, you also have FE 3 Houses, in the middle of the Black Eagles route you can opt to either

Spoiler

help Edelgard or the church

 at some point, and depending on which you choose you'll lose your allies that strongly disagree with you, which are:

 

Spoiler

Flayn, Seteth and Catherine if you side with Edelgard, or Hubert and Edelgard if you side with the church.

 

 Or on FE7, if either Pent or Louise (who are a couple) die during a chapter (they only become injured, not dead, since they're relevant on the future of the story) the other one will leave your party after the end of the chapter to "go back home" with their injured spouse.

 

 I think those are all the instances I can think on FE where doing something will take an unit from you like that (I know the question was the other way around but I thought you might see some use on these examples since they illustrate the same situation too)

Edited July 6, 2023 by ARMADS!!!

[lenticular]

2 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

So yeah, you can have, say, Rutger Guy, Joshua or Karel kill a bunch of your units and it will not be aknowledged by the other characters that it was them who killed them, only that they died, I think that it's as if no one was looking at them when they were killing your units or something? Like, Roy would know that Lilina died but not that it was Fir who killed her, y'know?

I agree with this. While the version of the battle that we see is pretty calm with units standing around in a nice and orderly fashion before taking their turn to move one at a time, that's pretty clearly a gameplay abstraction, and the actual "real" battle that is being represented will be much more chaotic with everyone dashing around at once, all fighting at once, and so on. It's extremely believable that the exact details of who killed whom would get lost in the fog of war.

2 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

It's not something that bothers me it's just that it really is strange that the lords are so forgiving, but alas, apart from Hector (and now Alear) I don't remember any other time when a recruitable character murdered someone that a lord cared about anyway.

It's not quite murder, but in Path of Radiance, Naesala

Spoiler

betrays Reyson and sells him into slavery.

Which unsurprisingly makes it so nobody trust him from that point on.

And then there's Radiant Dawn, where the Black Knight is briefly recruitable and lord-adjacent Sothe is absolutely not OK with that.

[Nozomi Kasaki]

28 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I agree with this. While the version of the battle that we see is pretty calm with units standing around in a nice and orderly fashion before taking their turn to move one at a time, that's pretty clearly a gameplay abstraction, and the actual "real" battle that is being represented will be much more chaotic with everyone dashing around at once, all fighting at once, and so on. It's extremely believable that the exact details of who killed whom would get lost in the fog of war.

I see… So the truth on who killed Lilina would remain a mystery forever huh? That's tragic though I wouldn't expect any less from something as chaotic and terrible as war. Though as much as I hate to admit it, I suppose it would be for the best that Roy doesn't know that one of the enemies that were recruited to his army was the one who killed her. We wouldn't want to have any internal conflict within his army to complicate things even further than it already has, especially during times of war after all…

Edited July 6, 2023 by Nozomi Kasaki

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This is why I love the Matthew and Jaffar support. It definitely goes there. But it relies on a death that happened out of the player's control as part of the story. 

In general Fire Emblem could stand to write more around permadeath possibilities. Having a unit stop you and say "This isn't going to work. If he stays, I go" would add a lot more weight to unit recruitments.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I thought this was going to go into a slightly different direction. That of "wait, why are the Lords so trusting of turncoat enemy troops, when they could be spies or else hold dual loyalties"? Lately, when this has happened - with Zola, Monica, and Fleche - the game leaves the "new recruit" unplayable. Which I think is something of a letdown, as it spoils their eventual treachery, and takes an option away from the player. But even when it happens, it's not an "I'm too trusting, I should vet my recruits better"; it's "the person who betrayed me was uniquely bad or messed up in some way that I could not have foreseen".

Anyway, I believe Sheema in New Mystery is actually like this. She'll only join if you spare her soldiers, and will "defect" if you renege on that commitment. At least, that's what I've read about her. Ultimately, though, I would say this is where player agency comes in. A player who just lost their favorite unit to a recruitable enemy might then choose to kill that enemy out of spite. Or, they can acknowledge their own screw-up, and recruit the unit regardless. Every "talk convo recruitment" is not just a question of what the characters want in the game, but also what the player wishes to do.

5 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

In general Fire Emblem could stand to write more around permadeath possibilities. Having a unit stop you and say "This isn't going to work. If he stays, I go" would add a lot more weight to unit recruitments.

So, kind of like a "Samson and Arran" choice? Or an "Olwen and Ilios" that the game actually explains? That'd be neat to see more of, for certain.

[ARMADS!!!]

10 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

This is why I love the Matthew and Jaffar support. It definitely goes there. But it relies on a death that happened out of the player's control as part of the story. 

In general Fire Emblem could stand to write more around permadeath possibilities. Having a unit stop you and say "This isn't going to work. If he stays, I go" would add a lot more weight to unit recruitments.

 Yeah we have Luchar/Johan and Lucharba/Johalva in FE4 and the black eagles route split (that makes you lose units, that you already have, that don't agree with you instead of not letting you be able to recruit them), @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate also mentioned Arran and Samson and Olwen and Illios (I dont know exactly how these recruitments work but I gotta look it up)

 

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I thought this was going to go into a slightly different direction. That of "wait, why are the Lords so trusting of turncoat enemy troops, when they could be spies or else hold dual loyalties"? Lately, when this has happened - with Zola, Monica, and Fleche - the game leaves the "new recruit" unplayable. Which I think is something of a letdown, as it spoils their eventual treachery, and takes an option away from the player. But even when it happens, it's not an "I'm too trusting, I should vet my recruits better"; it's "the person who betrayed me was uniquely bad or messed up in some way that I could not have foreseen".

 Yeah, in a way it's fair since you'll obviously not want to spend resources on a unit that will betray you or die in the middle of story, it must be completely infuriating, I think that it was very well done in FE8 with

Spoiler

Orson

 since he's only around for one chapter before betraying you and since it's on a chapter where your party and resources are very reduced (and you have no stat boosters, etc) then there's only so much xp and "resources" that can be wasted on him (in this case, just a small amount of vulneraries and whatever weapons are left in the traitor's inventory).

 And also with Ninian and Nils on FE7, who despite not betraying you, there are several instances when one of them has to be absent for several chapters, so they're always replaced by the other and all of their stats, level and inventory are transfered to the other too (supports are not but Nils can't even have supports anyway), which means you're never losing them as an unit because of story purpouses, since they act as the same unit despite being different characters. This is another good way they could deal with betrayals in your army, if an unit betrays you, you might get another unit later that carries extra levels for the levels you got with the unit that backstabbed you or something like this.

 

 I remember when I played FE6 and was absolutely sure that Guinivere was not recruitable because something was going to happen to her before the end of the game (I had bet on her dying though, not betrayal), so yeah when someone is not recruitable for apparently no reason it definitively raises suspicions as to what is going to happen to them.

 

 

 Oh, just another dumb in-game possibility that I remembered: In FE7 there's a chapter where you have to protect Dorcas' wife, who's an NPC, and Dorcas is an enemy (to be recruited) on the chapter, you can let Dorcas attack and kill his own wife while he's an enemy and he'll not reconize her but if you recruit him and then bring him to her, they can even talk to each other. I think that this sort of stuff might be done out of laziness or because it's too complex to code inevery single every circumstance like @Acacia Sgtsaid before, specially since it's so unlikely that Dorcas will even reach Natalie before you recruit/kill him anyway (while in other more likely to happen scenarios they make the code for a specific enemy to not attack a specific unit).

Edited July 7, 2023 by ARMADS!!!

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

9 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

also mentioned Arran and Samson and Olwen and Illios (I dont know exactly how these recruitments work but I gotta look it up)

In both versions of Shadow Dragon, on chapter... 16, I think it was... you have the choice of visiting two villages. One gives you Arran the Paladin, while the other gives you Samson the Hero. After one is visited, the other becomes inaccessible to Marth.

As for Ilios, he is a playable Mage Knight on one route of Thracia 776. He can be recruited... but only if Olwen, another Mage Knight, is not currently in the player's army. I don't believe the game ever explains why having Olwen makes him unrecruitable.

9 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

I remember when I played FE6 and was absolutely sure that Guinivere was not recruitable because something was going to happen to her before the end of the game (I had bet on her dying though, not betrayal), so yeah when someone is not recruitable for apparently no reason it definitively raises suspicions as to what is going to happen to them.

It's because Guinevere needs to survive for the plot, and if she's playable, she could die. Basically how they handled Nyna in Shadow Dragon. In FE6, they were still trying to do the "people die when they are killed" approach, which subsequent games have largely abandoned. Merlinus is kind of an exception, as when he's defeated, he leaves the field of battle, but remains playable in future maps.

Agreed on how Sacred Stones handling that one character being quite cool. I also love the scene he has with Seth, in chapter 8. Some of the best dialogue in the game right there.

[Jotari]

We actually do have an example of a lord accepting someone into their army after they killed  their loved one. Chrom lets Gangrel join up after he (effectively) killed Emmeryn. He's not super thrilled about it, if I remember, but practical enough to let it happen.

[lenticular]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

We actually do have an example of a lord accepting someone into their army after they killed  their loved one. Chrom lets Gangrel join up after he (effectively) killed Emmeryn. He's not super thrilled about it, if I remember, but practical enough to let it happen.

And once again, I find myself grateful that I decided to completely avoid the weird fantasyland of Awakening DLC/Spotpass. That sounds absurd. I mean, yeah, it's Awakening, which was hardly winning any prizes for coherence of its story to begin with, but yeesh.

[Acacia Sgt]

Still sensible, I'd say, reading how the whole conversation goes.

Though I must point out...

Quote

 

"Ah, how the mighty have fallen..."

"Ironic that you, of all people, are finally learning about long falls."

 

Dayum, Chrom, no chill there.

 

[ARMADS!!!]

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

In both versions of Shadow Dragon, on chapter... 16, I think it was... you have the choice of visiting two villages. One gives you Arran the Paladin, while the other gives you Samson the Hero. After one is visited, the other becomes inaccessible to Marth.

As for Ilios, he is a playable Mage Knight on one route of Thracia 776. He can be recruited... but only if Olwen, another Mage Knight, is not currently in the player's army. I don't believe the game ever explains why having Olwen makes him unrecruitable.

It's because Guinevere needs to survive for the plot, and if she's playable, she could die. Basically how they handled Nyna in Shadow Dragon. In FE6, they were still trying to do the "people die when they are killed" approach, which subsequent games have largely abandoned. Merlinus is kind of an exception, as when he's defeated, he leaves the field of battle, but remains playable in future maps.

Agreed on how Sacred Stones handling that one character being quite cool. I also love the scene he has with Seth, in chapter 8. Some of the best dialogue in the game right there.

Yeah, in FE7 they already dropped the "who dies stays dead" thing with Ninian and Nils, you just get a cutscene at the end of the chapter that you let either of them die, with Eliwood telling them that it was irresponsible of him to let them fight (because Ninian/Nils got "injured" not died) and that they'll have to stay away from battle from now on, so you can't use them anymore but they stay in the story. Also with the rest of the characters that canonically survive (the ones that show up on FE6 later), they just leave too, but they will leave for good, not showing up for cutscenes anymore.

 I actually had never thought that thas was why Guinivere wasn't playable, since I played FE7 first so I just didn't realize that the "they can still show up in cutscenes"(like Ninian and Nils, and probably Athos if you let him die on the final chapter) thing was literally NEVER applied in FE6, thinking about this, Cecilia is only recruitable once she stops being mentioned with frequency (basically when Roy doesn't urgently need her help anymore, so if she dies you have nothing to fear plot wise, kinda like Pent and Louise on FE7 who are very relevant to the plot for like one or two chapters before  being recruitable... just in case you kill them on their joining chapter). With Legault, in FE7, though, they just said fuck it, you can kill him on his joining chapter (either when he's an enemy or after you've recruited him) and on the end cutscene he'll still show up anyway and talk to your lords as if he had never died (even if you don't cross with him during the chapter, so he doesn't even know you), then never show up again lol.

 O yeah, I loved that conversation as well! Seth was smart as hell there, proving he's not only great gameplay wise.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, lenticular said:

And once again, I find myself grateful that I decided to completely avoid the weird fantasyland of Awakening DLC/Spotpass. That sounds absurd. I mean, yeah, it's Awakening, which was hardly winning any prizes for coherence of its story to begin with, but yeesh.

The only one I'm willing to accept as canon is the Walhart one. Because it's totally in-character for him to die in battle, and then come back to life through sheer force of will.

5 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

Yeah, in FE7 they already dropped the "who dies stays dead" thing with Ninian and Nils, you just get a cutscene at the end of the chapter that you let either of them die, with Eliwood telling them that it was irresponsible of him to let them fight (because Ninian/Nils got "injured" not died) and that they'll have to stay away from battle from now on, so you can't use them anymore but they stay in the story. Also with the rest of the characters that canonically survive (the ones that show up on FE6 later), they just leave too, but they will leave for good, not showing up for cutscenes anymore.

Yeah, that is my interpretation, at least. FE6 takes a lot of storytelling cues from the Archanea games, and Guinevere is to Roy as Nyna is to (FE1) Marth. And those games were taking this tack, too - to the extent that Jagen becomes unplayable in FE3, in order to serve as Marth's advisor.

5 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

With Legault, in FE7, though, they just said fuck it, you can kill him on his joining chapter (either when he's an enemy or after you've recruited him) and on the end cutscene he'll still show up anyway and talk to your lords as if he had never died (even if you don't cross with him during the chapter, so he doesn't even know you), then never show up again lol.

Yeah, that one is very funny. Almost as if they wrote the "default" scenario (Legault is recruited and alive) first, and then failed to account for alternative scenarios. And what he says isn't even that valuable. The Lords already know that the Black Fang was founded in Bern, per Leila's earlier report, and "let's ask around for clues" is a painfully obvious approach.

 

[Hrothgar777]

I watched the Veyle supports on YouTube the other night, looking to see if at least one of the Lythosians would hate her for killing Lumera. And instead I got "Hey Veyle this is a tasty pickle, innit".

She literally murdered the god/mother of god of their religion and they're all like "Hello little girl you're so precious and adorable." So, yeah; I think it's fair to say Fire Emblem doesn't know how to write this kind of scenario. If it were realistic she wouldn't be safe spending even 2 minutes in the Somniel surrounded by devotees of the Divine Dragon.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Hrothgar777

[Acacia Sgt]

The god is Alear, not Lumera, even if she's not exactly unimportant herself, but eh. Maybe they are more forgiving in light to the whole "unwittingly brainwashed" thing... which is not a bad thing, I'd say.

For its worth, we at least got some dabbling on the subject with Hortensia still hating Veyle for her role in Hyacinth's death, brainwashed or not.

[Jotari]

41 minutes ago, Hrothgar777 said:

I watched the Veyle supports on YouTube the other night, looking to see if at least one of the Lythosians would hate her for killing Lumera. And instead I got "Hey Veyle this is a tasty pickle, innit".

She literally murdered the god/mother of god of their religion and they're all like "Hello little girl you're so precious and adorable." So, yeah; I think it's fair to say Fire Emblem doesn't know how to write this kind of scenario. If it were realistic she wouldn't be safe spending even 2 minutes in the Somniel surrounded by devotees of the Divine Dragon.

I remember Veyle apologizing profusely in every second support she had, so much so that it got a bit obnoxious. So it's not like they skip over it entirely.

7 hours ago, lenticular said:

And once again, I find myself grateful that I decided to completely avoid the weird fantasyland of Awakening DLC/Spotpass. That sounds absurd. I mean, yeah, it's Awakening, which was hardly winning any prizes for coherence of its story to begin with, but yeesh.

Oh that's not even the worst of it XD The sister he killed is also somehow alive (this is completely unrelated to Gangrel's recruitment, so it's not like Chrom knew and that's why he decided to be more forgiving), and then because it's Awakening you can fuck said sister even though she is written to be like a mentally disabled person (she also can't support with either of her siblings, only the Avatar, and probably Morgan in which case I expect her inability to speak full sentences is immediately ignored). A large part of me thinks the only reason they didn't bring Validar back as a good guy is that the father-daughter incest barrier that would emerge from being able to S support him would be too icky even for Fire Emblem.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I remember Veyle apologizing profusely in every second support she had, so much so that it got a bit obnoxious. So it's not like they skip over it entirely.

At the very least, with Ivy her insistence was because Ivy herself was past wanting to be hostile over it, so even Veyle herself felt she was being forgiven too fast/easy.

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh that's not even the worst of it XD The sister he killed is also somehow alive (this is completely unrelated to Gangrel's recruitment, so it's not like Chrom knew and that's why he decided to be more forgiving), and then because it's Awakening you can fuck said sister even though she is written to be like a mentally disabled person (she also can't support with either of her siblings, only the Avatar, and probably Morgan in which case I expect her inability to speak full sentences is immediately ignored). A large part of me thinks the only reason they didn't bring Validar back as a good guy is that the father-daughter incest barrier that would emerge from being able to S support him would be too icky even for Fire Emblem.

Honestly, people need to accept already Emmeryn's survival is not an impossibility that requires a large dose of suspension of disbelief. If they actually read about the subject...

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

At the very least, with Ivy her insistence was because Ivy herself was past wanting to be hostile over it, so even Veyle herself felt she was being forgiven too fast/easy.

Honestly, people need to accept already Emmeryn's survival is not an impossibility that requires a large dose of suspension of disbelief. If they actually read about the subject...

It would be a bit easier to swallow if her recruitment chapter was at the same location, didn't have a three year time skip, lacked any indication of who saved her and wasn't a crucially important plot point to begin with. I can swallow miraculous survivals in characters, but only when it actually furthers the plot, not when it's just to give Robin more girlfriends and fetishes.

[LadyGrima]

I feel like some recruitments are really well done while others feel really shallow 

[Capt. Fargus]

On 7/6/2023 at 12:19 PM, Nozomi Kasaki said:

That's what I mean when I said about Roy "taking them in" as in welcoming them to the army. I'm not saying he is recruiting them, just that he would either reject or deny them, or just reluctantly accept them to the army if either of them killed Lilina even if he might feel some resentment to either of them depending on which of them killed her. Though, if you are referring to the part about removing the ability to recruit them… yeah I guess it makes sense that they would still be recruited by Sue and Noah regardless of what Roy thinks of them. It all just depends on whether Roy would accept them (willingly or otherwise) into the army or not. Though I'm suddenly curious on what would happen if Roy refused to take them in after either Fir or Sin killed Lilina. Or more interestingly, still decides to take them in even after murdering her… I wonder how Roy would be able to deal with the fact that he accepted the murderer(s) of his dear friend/cousin into his army? And how would Sin, Fir, Noah, and Sue would feel about all of this? More importantly though, how would the Ostians like Bors feel about all of this? Wouldn't they despise Sin and/or Fir for killing Lilina and then blame Roy for failing to protect her? So many question on top of my head…

In any case, I do see your point about it being too complex and being too much of a hassle to have all of this stuff being coded into the game. I just thought that it seemed way too easy for Roy and some other Lords to move on and forgive the murderers of their loved ones and accept them to their army. Sorry for my ignorant post.

Well, forgive me if Im off base here... but look at Jaffar when he’s recruited. Hector wants to rip his balls off and stuff em in his mouth, but Eliwood sees him IMHO as a potentially powerful ally at least for the moment. I can see the sense in that. If I were in the same boat myself I’d take where I can find em, but yeah they’d still hafta earn my trust

[Jotari]

Also it's kind of funny when you recruit enemies mid battle and they do this.

[ARMADS!!!]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Also it's kind of funny when you recruit enemies mid battle and they do this.

Lol I like these Katie Tiedrich comics, she lampshades a lot of things on Fire Emblem that don't make sense/shows how it'd work if it made sense.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 7/7/2023 at 10:37 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

Honestly, people need to accept already Emmeryn's survival is not an impossibility that requires a large dose of suspension of disbelief. If they actually read about the subject...

Let's say, hypothetically, for the sake of argument, that Emmeryn does survive her fall. What does Gangrel do next? Does he say "well, I've seen her fall, so she must be dead!" Or, does he say "Aversa, retrieve her body! I will see her head put on a pike!" The latter is far more in-character for him - he may be Mad, but he ain't Stupid. If Emmeryn were to survive her fall, Gangrel would just kill her after the fact. Chapter 10 is all about Chrom's army retreating, so it's not as though his forces have any means of retrieving her body afterwards. The Mad King has no reason not to retrieve Emmeryn's body, to satisfy his own depravity.

9 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

Lol I like these Katie Tiedrich comics, she lampshades a lot of things on Fire Emblem that don't make sense/shows how it'd work if it made sense.

Gotta love the one where Guy is the only recruitable enemy, because he's the only one who isn't ugly. Weird how far a name and a face will take you in the world.