How Should Another Archanea Remake/Re-release be Tackled?

[Aedan7479]

(Side note: sorry this is so long, I know I probably don't need to apologise, but I feel like it)

Pretty self-explanatory title. The DS games are probably the closest to a 'dark age' Fire Emblems ever gotten, not that they're bad, there are just various problem surrounding them, such as sales and presentation, on top of some questionable decisions in game, such as the Gaiden Chapters in Shadow Dragon. A remake seems logical, to flesh them out fix some of the problems and generally update them, except it would be the third time Shadow Dragon's story received a remake, and the second time for Mystery of the Emblem.

But thinking about it, I don't personally think the games need another full remake, why not just an updated re-release? It just seems to make more sense, and you can bundle them together. As for what should be updated? Well, obviously ther should be an option to play them as originally released, but to go more in depth:

Both:

of course, there should be the usual QoL updates, Casual mode, reversing actions, upscaling, decompressing the music, but the graphics really need an update of some sort. Asking for new 3d models might be a bit much, but I reckon the map models should just be replaced with the traditional 2d sprites, like what the 3ds games. I'm also not a fan, personally, of the cutscene portraits, they look alright I suppose, but they don’t emote and just lack personality, a problem Shadow Dragon's characters suffer immensely, especially when compared to the next remake, Echoes. And speaking of Echoes, Voice acting would be great as well; it did so much to elevate Echoes Characters, but it might be a bit much to ask, considering both games large cast.

Shadow Dragon:

I recently watched Shanebrained's retrospective, and it helped me to appreciate Shadow Dragon more, if you haven't watched it, I highly recommend it, but basically, Shadow Dragon is basic, but makes the most of it, so adding too much would if fact take away from the game, which I think makes updating the visuals and possibly voice acting even more important, to help convey a lot with a little. With that in mind, I'm not sure if Support conversations should be added; with the large cast, you either have too few for each character, so much that the quality suffers, or the odd in-between that New Mystery does. Sure every character could just have one support chain each, say, Abel with Cain, but then everyone else Abel is connected to, such as Palla and Est, get the short end of the stick. I do think there should be more special conversation like what's already done in the game, such as one between Abel with Cain, Est and Palla, to establish their connection. As for the rest of the script, update every scene that's just a character talking to Marth with NO RESPONSE, and also make it clearer which enemies can be recruited and with who; when I first played, I had no idea Caeda was the one who could recruit Narvene, so why would I send her up where there are Archers? Finally add some scenes with characters that can die -- which for some reason the original game does twice and no more -- such as the Altean characters rejoicing when they free their home.

Goodness, I feel like I'm rambling; as for the gameplay, fix the gaiden chapters of course, add the WiFi shop items somewhere, and maybe give Marth a promotion. Maybe also bring back Bonus exp; in a game with only seize maps, it would be a good way to add extra goals, and for classic players (who don't reset everytime a character dies) it would ease the pressure when a strong character dies.

New Mystery:

I have a lot less to say here, because I think the problems here are a little more... baked in? You could give Jagen back all the scenes Kris stole from him, but then Kris sticks out for being unimportant outside of the Prologue (which has it's own problems) and gaiden chapters. It's a good game, but it feels weird because it feels like Kris' game, featuring Mystery of the Emblem's plot, so you can't just remove him. And even then, WHY would you remove something from a remake/re-release unless it's useless like dismount? Weirdly, that's about all I have to say on Mew Nystery, but I haven't played it nearly as much

What to you all think? Should the Archanea games be remade again, or just re-released? And what should and shouldn't be updated?

[lenticular]

Personally, I hope they don't get remakes any time soon. Not because they're not worth remaking or the remakes couldn't be good, but because if they're getting remade then that means that something else isn't, and there are multiple games higher up my priority list.

I would like to see old Mystery get a comparable re-release as Switch Shadow Dragon, except without the limited time nonsense this time, please. Just take the original Super Famicom game, give it a localisation and time rewind, and put it on the eshop. Maybe bundle Archanea Saga in there too. That would be great. 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I'd honestly rather see the original Mystery and the DS Mystery get some kind of localized port on Switch, that's all we really need right now.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Turn it into Paper Fire Emblem. Basically, small grid-based encounters between a handful of playable units, with button-timed activations for dodges and critical hits. Every character, of course, in a 2D papery artstyle. Retell the story in a way that hits all the beats, but doesn't take itself too seriously. Include a traversible overworld, where the caves become explorable dungeons with battles against paper monsters (kind of like Echoes). And hey, we can even get the devs who made Paper Mario work on it! Imagine that, a Fire Emblem title developed by Intelligent Systems.

Anyway, to your general suggestions: this sounds, essentially, like a remake, moreso than an "updated re-release". Stuff like introducing voice acting, swapping models for sprites, and introducing new supports and narrative dialogue... there's a lot going on. And this is all before considering how we're gonna translate two-screen games onto a one-screen system. Broadly speaking, I'm not opposed to the changes, though. We had a few "flavor conversations" in FE11, such as between Merric and Elice, or among Minerva and her Whitewings. It'd be great to have more of them, such as between Cain and Abel, Roshea and Vyland, and Tomas and Jeorge. Changing the gaiden requirements, plus making Brave weapons and Elysian Whips buyable, are no-brainers. 

1 hour ago, Aedan7479 said:

And even then, WHY would you remove something from a remake/re-release unless it's useless like dismount?

Actually, I kind of like dismounting, at least conceptually, as a way to "balance out" the otherwise overpowered mounted units. Like, of course I'm going to use these classes that have more movement... unless the game prevents me from doing so, in which case, I have to get creative. And it could actually work great with a DS-era reclassing system. Like, I can't bring Cain to a castle map as a Paladin, but I can bring him if I reclass him to Swordmaster. That way, some underappreciated classes see more use.

1 hour ago, Aedan7479 said:

Maybe also bring back Bonus exp; in a game with only seize maps, it would be a good way to add extra goals, and for classic players (who don't reset everytime a character dies) it would ease the pressure when a strong character dies.

I believe New Mystery had a "Training Grounds", where you could pay for a unit to get into a fight and gain experience. Like a between-maps Arena. I'm... not sure if you could earn money through it, though. Something like this could work, if extended to both games - maybe including a gold prize, or free "credits", when Marth clears a map relatively quickly?

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

I would like to see old Mystery get a comparable re-release as Switch Shadow Dragon, except without the limited time nonsense this time, please. Just take the original Super Famicom game, give it a localisation and time rewind, and put it on the eshop. Maybe bundle Archanea Saga in there too. That would be great. 

That'd be my ideal answer, too. Although, since the original Archanea Saga was a broadcast title, I don't know how easy it'll be to simply port. Especially with weird stuff like time-based (not turn-based) reinforcements. They could do an "adapted" format, as they did for FE12, but is that work they're really willing to put in for a cheap re-release?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Put me in the camp of localizing FE3 rather than spending valuable time and resources on Shadow Dragon: Fourth Time's a Charm. Especially since Uh I was joking yesterday about having an archanea wishlist ready to go. I'm also in the middle of a FE12 playthrough so the Don'ts are piling up and it's hard to organize my thoughts on the subject.

But okay broadstrokes approach for full scale archanea remake

• Go ham on presentation elements. This is the biggest avenue that you can 1-UP the originals. Full Voice acting. Cutscenes. Orchestrated music will do a lot of heavy lifting already. But I want to gasp the first time I see the game's basic UI. I want to cheer when the chapter 11 Slaver gets in Marth's face in the cutscene and our normally polite prince lays him out with a single punch. I want to cry when I hear Est's death quote like I did when she died in Echoes.
• Bring back BOTH Dismounting and Reclass. These would go together like Canto and Reposition. But Reclass needs toning down. Maybe have just one choice of class for every unit so that the flood of cavaliers can differentiate themselves a bit. You won't be laughing at Matthis anymore if he's one of two clerics capable of using Hammerne.
  • Bring back Weapon Level, combine it with the Skill stat. 
• Book 1 and 2 format, with the option of starting Book 2 on a fresh save just like in FE3. But this time there's transfer data. Units you use in Book 1 get stat bonuses going into Book 2 based on how much they gained. Think FE4's inheritance stat gains, or Tellius' transfer data. I'm not picky on the specifics of how this should work, so long as the base stats of units in Book 2 remain competitive without any transfer data. 
  • Substitute units for Book 1 deaths. Some units should survive for plot purposes, but lets be real, Kaga wrote most of them to be expendable. Trust His vision.  
  • And sure incorporate the BS Fire Emblem maps as between-game Trial Maps.
• Don't bloat the playtime. The games being short are their best feature. 
  • Try alternative routes splits of 1-3 maps at a time. This is how we're going to make the Books replayable. Grust is approaching during your stay at Port Warren. The game asks you, Fight or Retreat. Fight leads to a different chapter 8 and 9. These options that go against the "canon" are another way you could slot in interesting versions of DS era's gaiden chapters and superfluous units. But the real tantalizing possibilities are in writing new events for these role playing decisions. Weird Ghost sage Gotoh tells you to stop what you're doing and go after some stuffy relics? Tell him to heck off. Princess Minerva begs you to save her little sister? Woman, that's not my problem.
    • We can also have optional paralogues out of existing gaiden chapters - or even maps that used to be mandatory. The original already lets you get to the finale without Falchion. Without some dumb multiverse Hot Tiki. Or Miss Book 2's actual finale. Let players forge their own victory. Do as much homework as they want to do. Beat the game in 15 maps or 30. I want to see the Lunatic Worst Ending runs of blitzing to the end with no regalia, spheres, and minimum recruitments. Full Breath of the Wild, Marth storms Dohl Castle with no pants on energy. 
• Make Nyna playable. FE11's portrayal has convinced me. She and Marth have the same backstory, but hers is way more graphic and hopeless. I would write her as basically Elincia at the outset, but more vengeful and pessimistic after Camus' death.
  • Ceada should be kidnapped in her place in Book 2. But either way, have Book 1 Supports determine who can save which Maiden in Book 2's true finale.

I've got a lot more general notions of what I want in a fire emblem game in terms of game mechanics, but this list zeroes in on what I'd do with Archanea specifically, which is not much in terms of game mechanics. Like Echoes I'd want to capture what Kaga got right and figure out how to complement that.

[Aedan7479]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Try alternative routes splits of 1-3 maps at a time. This is how we're going to make the Books replayable. Grust is approaching during your stay at Port Warren. The game asks you, Fight or Retreat. Fight leads to a different chapter 8 and 9. These options that go against the "canon" are another way you could slot in interesting versions of DS era's gaiden chapters and superfluous units. But the real tantalizing possibilities are in writing new events for these role playing decisions. Weird Ghost sage Gotoh tells you to stop what you're doing and go after some stuffy relics? Tell him to heck off. Princess Minerva begs you to save her little sister? Woman, that's not my problem.

Actually, what about a morality system? After all, the game doesn't stop you from killing a defenceless Maria, why not have that impact the story? Let us turn Marth into a tyrant that replaces Medeus. Sure it would have to be ignored at the start of Book 2, but Character death is already ignored anyway (though a timeline where Marth is the one corrupted and Hardin becomes the hero would be very fun).

[X-Naut]

Obvious answer is to put them on one cartridge/download like the original FE3. Beyond that, some bullet points:

• If you're going to update the engine/setting then don't copypaste the original data, throw it out and rebuild from scratch. You can use the originals as suggestions but the game should feel cohesive, not out of touch with the narrative or game engine.
• Partition Shadow Dragon's prologue out of the story and make it another Archanea Saga arc. It's clearly not intended to be a part of the campaign when it's being removed on Hard and up. It and the others could grant clear bonuses that can be enabled on game files as DLC lite.
• Similarly, include alternate conditions for Shadow Dragon's paralogues and/or original character join conditions. Excelblem being funny or not, the meat grinder was very out of touch.
• I'm all for mixing and matching mechanics between the two iterations, and I would expect it when supplemental media has been walking back a few DS decisions (i.e. Heroes Phina got her rapier back). Dismounting + reclassing could work, but I'm with Zapp on the latter needing to be changed to avoid invalidating the former.
• Give everyone new OA for Naga's sake, the DS games were really bad about character peripheral tunnel vision.
• Adding onto that, give characters actual interactions in the games, and have some supports and scenes grant bonuses like FE4's character events. The Book 1 bonuses would transfer to Book 2 characters' bases, along with some measure of support progress.

[Jotari]

I say go big or go home. If the idea is to just make it widely avilable than it can be rereleased as is just fine. It is still an excellent game, and honestly there's nothing I would really change about the gameplay. The only thing I'm after is a more expansive story. And that could actually be facilitated in other ways, like remaking it as a Warriors game (though I'm not a super fan of that idea because, despite like Three Hopes a decent amount, i have little confident they could actually make it good). But they really want do to it then it needs to have the opposite approach to the DS. Don't be faithful, be expansive. Take it beyond what it ever was before. Tell the story bigger, change maps and chapters , or at the very least chapter objectives, and overall just give it more of a Radiant Dawn flavor.

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I believe New Mystery had a "Training Grounds", where you could pay for a unit to get into a fight and gain experience. Like a between-maps Arena. I'm... not sure if you could earn money through it, though.

I think you actually had to pay to use it.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

The most important aspect in tackling them is to do so only after Genealogy and Binding Blade had their remakes. It would be vexing if those games had to wait just because Shadow Dragon refused to do the job properly the first time around. 

I think a remake should center around addressing the things Shadow Dragon refused to address. The map design and gameplay loop are fine so there's not much more to gain on that front. Its characterization that Shadow Dragon struggled with and its characterization that needs to be updated in a remake. This means supports, plot important characters like Hardin showing up in cutscenes, and ensuring no character is stuck with their death quote being their only lines. 

Speaking of Hardin. I think the writers should take advantage of already knowing how Shadow Dragon progresses into new Mystery. Knowing that Hardin becomes the main threat in the next game means its advisable to flesh out his relation with Marth and his status one of the most important men in the army. It also means maybe giving cameos to figures like Lang who were stated to be around during Shadow Dragon but never really appeared. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Etrurian emperor

[lenticular]

14 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That'd be my ideal answer, too. Although, since the original Archanea Saga was a broadcast title, I don't know how easy it'll be to simply port. Especially with weird stuff like time-based (not turn-based) reinforcements. They could do an "adapted" format, as they did for FE12, but is that work they're really willing to put in for a cheap re-release?

Yeah, that's fair. I'm sure it would be possible, but it likely would be more work than is justified for the sort of quick and dirty approach that I'm imagining.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I say go big or go home. [...] Don't be faithful, be expansive.

I agree with this. If they do decide to do these remakes, this is absolutely the approach that I'd be most excited about.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

9 hours ago, Aedan7479 said:

Actually, what about a morality system? After all, the game doesn't stop you from killing a defenceless Maria, why not have that impact the story? Let us turn Marth into a tyrant that replaces Medeus. Sure it would have to be ignored at the start of Book 2, but Character death is already ignored anyway (though a timeline where Marth is the one corrupted and Hardin becomes the hero would be very fun).

Characters reacting to your choices, and character recruitments being cut off due to your decisions is definitely what I'd be going for. But I don't like that specific example. There's nothing to be gained from killing poor Maria. I would want to keep Minerva's quirk of coming after you if you did kill her since it's true to the original, but I would not turn that into a legitimate story path. Having the ability to play an Evil Marth raises a lot of concerns if we're having these decisions ripple all the way into Book 2. Why would Gharnef corrupt Hardin when Evil Marth is right there? Each player choice should have an obvious justification from the point of view of a blind player, as well as some gameplay alterations to sweeten the deal for repeat playthroughs. We're using the Starsphere/Starlight dilemma of the original game as our basis. Here's how I'd approach chapter 10:

Marth hears Minerva's request from Catria at the end of chapter 9, having the option of saying "No, I have no reason to trust you" to which Catria responds "I understand, let me prove my mistress' commitment by fighting alongside you". And now you're playing chapter 10B against wherever Palla and Est are stationed. Use Catria to recruit her sisters. Throw in Warren who otherwise doesn't appear in Book 1. In this version of the story, Minerva never talks to you, never defects like she wants to because Maria is still captured, remaining at Michalis' side all the way up to Knight Filled Sky. In this other path you end up recruiting the whitewings sooner than usual, to make up for the lack of Maria/Minerva and the Mercurius sword that Est usually brings you.

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The most important aspect in tackling them is to do so only after Genealogy and Binding Blade had their remakes. It would be vexing if those games had to wait just because Shadow Dragon refused to do the job properly the first time around. 

Second time around. However annoying this is for us, for Japanese fans a fourth attempt at Shadow Dragon probably looks even more ridiculous.

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Its characterization that Shadow Dragon struggled with and its characterization that needs to be updated in a remake. This means supports, plot important characters like Hardin showing up in cutscenes, and ensuring no character is stuck with their death quote being their only lines. 

Agreed on all of this. Characterization was the biggest misfire of FE11. As for supports, I turn my nose up at FE11/12 throwing in modern FE mechanics with no regard for how they change the original game's design and balance. Something like the weapon triangle has no business being here. But supports do. FE3 invented support bonuses as a concept, that's all the excuse I need to throw support conversations into the mix. Personally I wouldn't go writing in as many as a modern FE, but certainly writing as many supports and base convos as Echoes had for each character.

14 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I believe New Mystery had a "Training Grounds", where you could pay for a unit to get into a fight and gain experience. Like a between-maps Arena. I'm... not sure if you could earn money through it, though.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I think you actually had to pay to use it.

Yes, and you don't win back your wager despite permadeath still being in play. Some 'training grounds'. Our instructor kills one of our units and says "them's the brakes, who's next?" The only thing it adds to a playthrough is the FE9 Bonus exp exploit. Save the game, have somebody with 80 or more current exp fight in the arena, reload if the level up doesn't give you everything you want. But with money and deployment slots being so tight in FE12 I wouldn't advise doing it often.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Aedan7479]

9 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The most important aspect in tackling them is to do so only after Genealogy and Binding Blade had their remakes. It would be vexing if those games had to wait just because Shadow Dragon refused to do the job properly the first time around. 

Oh absolutely, every game not on the switch at least deserves an worldwide re-release. That being said, somehow Archanea still has the least fleshed out cast, as has been well established.

7 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Characterization was the biggest misfire of FE11. As for supports, I turn my nose up at FE11/12 throwing in modern FE mechanics with no regard for how they change the original game's design and balance. Something like the weapon triangle has no business being here. But supports do. FE3 invented support bonuses as a concept, that's all the excuse I need to throw support conversations into the mix. Personally I wouldn't go writing in as many as a modern FE, but certainly writing as many supports and base convos as Echoes had for each character.

Technically New Mystery did that, every Character had base conversations with Kris, and there are some support conversations (or rather, base conversations that unlock with supports), Catria and Est even have the same supports in Echoes. Though I'm pretty sure not every character had a support chain (outside of Kris). The Echoes comparison is a good one though, because that game knew how to get a lot of characterisation with just a little, even Shadow Dragon did, it's just so many character had next to nothing; considerably less than a little.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Aedan7479 said:

Oh absolutely, every game not on the switch at least deserves an worldwide re-release. That being said, somehow Archanea still has the least fleshed out cast, as has been well established.

I'd say Thracia's cast is below Archanea's for development. At least Archanea has New Mystery, Thracia has very little. Okay there are some big names in it that are well fleshed out, but for every Eyvel you have a Ralph.

1 hour ago, Aedan7479 said:

Technically New Mystery did that, every Character had base conversations with Kris, and there are some support conversations (or rather, base conversations that unlock with supports), Catria and Est even have the same supports in Echoes. Though I'm pretty sure not every character had a support chain (outside of Kris). The Echoes comparison is a good one though, because that game knew how to get a lot of characterisation with just a little, even Shadow Dragon did, it's just so many character had next to nothing; considerably less than a little.

Every character except Nagi has a non Kris support chain. She only has a single support Convo with Kris. No doubt because of how late in the game she arrives and the system being built up by per maps deployed. Still they managed to squeeze in a support Convo between Michalis and Minerva, I think they could have had one between Tiki and Nagi. Ymir is probably also support devoid with how late he comes. In fact, let's actually check who lacks non Kris supports as there might be more.

*Arran

*Draug

*Warren

*Matthis

*Wrys

*Castor

*Barst

*Frey

*Norne

*Samuel

*Wendell 

*Cain

*Roger

*Etzel

*Arlen

*Horace

*Jake

*Darros

*Beck

*Athena

*Xane

*Dolph

*Macellean

*Tomas

*Frost

*Ymir

*Nagi

Okay, so, wow, there are actually a lot of (mostly platonic) Avatarsexuals in new Mystery. And some very surprising ones. Like, alright, who is Ymir really going to support with, the dudes a hermit, but seriously, Cain!? There's no Cain and Able support? No Merric and Arlen? Even if we restrict ourselves to only pairings characters on this list with other characters on this list, there are some really easy pairings. Like Draug and Arran are both Altean Knights, put them together (though really Arran should support with Samuel so we can find out more about those two villages). Frey and Norne are recruited together, let's find out how they know each other. Jake and Beck are both ballisticians. Dolph and Macellean are basically the same guy. Even if Arlen and Merric is exhausted in the main game Arlen and Etzel is an option. Or hell Wendell and Arlen! And I think the biggest loser here is Warren, as he's a new character to Mystery of the Emblem and joins early game for somewhat superfluous reasons, so he feels a lot less developed than almost anyone else in Archanea. I'm actually a big defender of Kris and try steer away New Mystery's lack of a robust support system away from the Avatar and towards the fact that there's like 90 characters, but looking over this list I can't help but be dissapointed. More effort could have put in to make sure every character has at least one non Kris support, or at the very least pair some of the obvious pairings from above. There's 27 characters who are Avatarsexuals there, that's only 13 support chains to cover everyone (Nagi could be left a mystery). Marth also only has a support with Kris and Caeda which feels weird.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Jotari

[Aedan7479]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'd say Thracia's cast is below Archanea's for development. At least Archanea has New Mystery, Thracia has very little. Okay there are some big names in it that are well fleshed out, but for every Eyvel you have a Ralph.

Whoops, my bad, Thracia is the one game in the series I'm not very familiar with.

 

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Okay, so, wow, there are actually a lot of (mostly platonic) Avatarsexuals in new Mystery. And some very surprising ones. Like, alright, who is Ymir really going to support with, the dudes a hermit, but seriously, Cain!? There's no Cain and Able support? No Merric and Arlen? Even if we restrict ourselves to only pairings characters on this list with other characters on this list, there are some really easy pairings. Like Draug and Arran are both Altean Knights, put them together (though really Arran should support with Samuel so we can find out more about those two villages). Frey and Norne are recruited together, let's find out how they know each other. Jake and Beck are both ballisticians. Even if Arlen and Merric is exhausted in the main game Arlen and Etzel is an option. Or hell Wendell and Arlen! And I think the biggest loser here is Warren, as he's a new character to Mystery of the Emblem and joins early game for somewhat superfluous reasons, so he feels a lot less developed than almost anyone else in Archanea. I'm actually a big defender of Kris and try steer away New Mystery's lack of a robust support system away from the Avatar and towards the fact that there's like 90 characters, but looking over this list I can't help but be dissapointed. More effort could have put in to make sure every character has at least one non Kris support, or at the very least pair some of the obvious pairings from above. Marth also only has a support with Kris and Caeda which feels weird.

It's funny to think Est it the one with the most supports next to Kris, not counting the supports with no conversation. I would personally be content if every support had one conversation, just to explain their connection, especially the ones that never share dialogue in the script (did you know, Frey gets support bonuses from Palla and Catria?) Even if it was just handled like Shadow Dragon conversations, I'd like to see Cain and Abel -- who are famously a duo -- interact at least once in the games.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Aedan7479 said:

 (did you know, Frey gets support bonuses from Palla and Catria?) 

No, I didn't...that seems really random. Does he have anything resembling a connection to them?

Edited July 8, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

No, I didn't...that seems really random. Does he have anything resembling a connection to them?

Yes. He's part of a trio.

Palla supports with Frey and Abel.

Catria supports with Frey and Cain.

Est supports with Cain and Abel.

That's it. This exists in both Shadow Dragon and New Mystery. It's there for the sake of having both trios connected.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Aedan7479]

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

No, I didn't...that seems really random. Does he have anything resembling a connection to them?

Interestingly, each of the three cavaliers (Abel, Cain and Frey) have support bonuses with two of the whitewings, and vice versa (I know that might sound obvious, but there are one-sided supports)

Abel has Palla and Est (obviously)

Cain has Catria and Est

And Frey has Palla and Catria

The only reason I can think of is that character endings don't change depending on who's dead; Est still marries 'an Altean knight' if Abel is dead.

Edit: whoops, didn't mean to repeat what was just said.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Aedan7479

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Aedan7479 said:

The only reason I can think of is that character endings don't change depending on who's dead; Est still marries 'an Altean knight' if Abel is dead.

Which kind of sucks. They introduced alternate character endings back in Gaiden 

[Acacia Sgt]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Which kind of sucks. They introduced alternate character endings back in Gaiden 

Which had a smaller cast. 32 vs 52. And only about 13 had alternate endings, even.

Perhaps since it was a literal Gaiden story. Mystery also had alternate endings, not as much, but they're there. It was either because it was too complex at the time, or because they already planned for a sequel, so only the Artemis' Curse alternate ending was allowed, which would be invalidated anyway.

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Which had a smaller cast. 32 vs 52. And only about 13 had alternate endings, even.

Perhaps since it was a literal Gaiden story. Mystery also had alternate endings, not as much, but they're there. It was either because it was too complex at the time, or because they already planned for a sequel, so only the Artemis' Curse alternate ending was allowed, which would be invalidated anyway.

Cast size really doesn't come into it. Only character relevance. It really wouldn't have been difficult to give different endings to the likes of Dolph or Est, characters whose endings depend on the existence of other characters. Character endings are really one of the lowest efforts things in a typical Fire Emblem game.  They're like three lines if text and they are not that hard to come up with (and even then they fall back on "character mysteriously vanished" quite a lot).

Edited July 8, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

57 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Cast size really doesn't come into it. Only character relevance. It really wouldn't have been difficult to give different endings to the likes of Dolph or Est, characters whose endings depend on the existence of other characters. Character endings are really one of the lowest efforts things in a typical Fire Emblem game. They are not that hard to come up with (and even then they fall back on "character mysteriously vanished" quite a lot).

There's only so much space a game can have. Specially Famicom/NES cartridges.

More characters, more bytes used for text strings and the code for displaying them and such. Even if it's not much on their own, it adds up, specially when you consider what other text the game needs to have. Between chapter dialogue, house/village dialogue, recruitment dialogue, boss dialogue, etc. Plus the rest of the data made up by the graphics, code, music, etc.

As it was, the original game was already pushing the cartridge to the limit. Or rather, they ended handicapping themselves in terms of memory/size.

https://kantopia.wordpress.com/2015/12/10/fire-emblem-25th-anniversary-book-scantranslation-compilation-post/

Quote

There were plans for Dark Dragon to use extravagant graphics in order to compete with [other games of] the very popular simulation genre on the PC.

At the time, considering the maximum capacity of a Famicom (NES) cartridge was 2 Mbit, to produce battle scenes during phases, all the events that had been designed, left and right-facing sprites during battle scenes, it was necessary to use a special type of MMC3 cartridge.

However, during development we learned the maximum capacity of a MMC3 cartridge was 1 Mbit; from there, we started heavily compacting everything to accommodate the halved capacity. As a result, we cut down the 2 boss dragons we originally planned to 1 and got rid of the event scene graphics.

While it only talks about graphics, I wouldn't be surprised if they had to come short of text to add as well.

I'm pretty sure Gaiden has less text, so perhaps it could afford to make a couple text strings for alternate endings. Plus just using a 2Mbit cartridge to begin with. Also since it was not expected to have a direct continuation, unlike Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light. Which I still think influenced on the lack of alternate endings. Like I said, Mystery does have a few, since it also didn't got a direct continuation.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

55 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

There's only so much space a game can have. Specially Famicom/NES cartridges.

More characters, more bytes used for text strings and the code for displaying them and such. Even if it's not much on their own, it adds up, specially when you consider what other text the game needs to have. Between chapter dialogue, house/village dialogue, recruitment dialogue, boss dialogue, etc. Plus the rest of the data made up by the graphics, code, music, etc.

As it was, the original game was already pushing the cartridge to the limit. Or rather, they ended handicapping themselves in terms of memory/size.

https://kantopia.wordpress.com/2015/12/10/fire-emblem-25th-anniversary-book-scantranslation-compilation-post/

While it only talks about graphics, I wouldn't be surprised if they had to come short of text to add as well.

I'm pretty sure Gaiden has less text, so perhaps it could afford to make a couple text strings for alternate endings. Plus just using a 2Mbit cartridge to begin with. Also since it was not expected to have a direct continuation, unlike Dark Dragon and the Sword of Light. Which I still think influenced on the lack of alternate endings. Like I said, Mystery does have a few, since it also didn't got a direct continuation.

Oh, you're misunderstanding me. I was talking about Shadow Dragon the remake, as Aedan was talking about Est's supports in that. Can't fault the original game for not having it when the idea hadn't been invented yet. Dolph's ending on SNES or Book 1 doesn't even allude to Hardin, that was added on DS. The reference to Gaiden was more like "It's been a thing ever since then". That being said, Gaiden's rom is a bigger file size than Shadow Dragon's on NES, so their byte numbers probably wasn't so restricted that they couldn't have done it on the first game, but again, can't really fault them for not having the idea on the very first try.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

Well, as it has been mentioned before, Shadow Dragon was faithful to a fault. So if the original didn't had alternate endings, then the remake would not have either. Still, the idea of the support existing as a back-up might not be as much of a patch-up, since you can have all the playable Altean knights dead and Est's ending would still remain the same.

[Aedan7479]

Well, on that topic, why not add alternate endings? Maybe if Frey's alive Palla or Catria can have a happy ending for instance. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, as it has been mentioned before, Shadow Dragon was faithful to a fault.

It wasn't really. As has pointed out they did change a lot. EVen ignoring the stuff they added like the prologue and weapon triangle, classes could all promote, wyvern knights lost swords and gained axes, the entire weapon level system was remove in favor of weapon ranks, crit is calculated after hit (so no critical misses). All of that stuff could have been retained, and might have been had it been made at the time of Shadows of Valentia. They were willing to change stuff for Shadow Dragon. What they mostly kept the same was maps, enemy class types and the script. Endings would fall into the last category, but it was a specific choice rather than an overall design philosophy for the game.