I'm slightly dissapointed with how Archanea Saga was implemented

[Jotari]

So first off I want to say it's really freaking cool that they put the BS Titles into New Mystery. It's something I was hoping they'd do for years in Zelda and not something I ever expected them to ever do for any series. On retrospect it's a little obvious a decision. Book 2 is only half a game after all, it's a little light on content. That's why we got the Assassin sub plot too. But it's the kind of obvious decision that companies don't always take advantage of (though they seem to be more and more, I'm flabbergasted Radical Dreamers was ever ressurected let alone got an official English translation).

BUT...how they handled BS in New Mystery was a little half assed. It's nice in the fan service sense that we get it and they bothered to give Frost and Bzark different portraits...but the maps are just sorta standard. They're just standard route and seize maps. Nothing special or distinct. Which is a shame since BS Archanea Saga did have a very unique mechanic which the series has never experimented with since (unless you want to count Warriors). And that is Real Time.

This is obvious, but I don't the really connect the dots. We know BS was like an online service with timed events and the like, but there's a disassociation there where we just view these as standard maps when they weren't. They were timed. You only had like 40 minutes to play them. And then you were scored based on how well you played them. They still have that scoring system in New Mystery. It just feels rather superfluous without this timed element. And also without the aspect that you had only had three opportunities months or years apart to actually attempt these maps, a standard New Mystery player's approach would be to play the map, probably lose a unit in the first few turns because we under estimate the map then reset and try again. You couldn't do that on the original BS. It was basically enforced iron man...Well, kind of, because BS also introduced a mechanic to the series for the first time that we didn't see until years later. Turn Rewind.

Yeah... seriously. The instructions for the original BS broadcast say you restart a turn with a button combination. Long before Mia's Turnwheel and Divine Pulse we had BS's turn rewind. It sounds like it was just for a single turn though, and thus in effect it's basically like save scumming in Genealogy, but it makes a tonne of sense when you factor it in with real time. As you could get your turn back, but you couldn't get your time back. These maps are designed to be a race against the clock to perform as well as you possibly can (and that's also why it didn't have combat animations). That's not how they feel like in New Mystery. Maybe you do still gain points based on real time, but it would certainly make a difference to have a ticking clock somewhere in the corner letting you feel that aspect.

Real time as a mechanic in a turn based strategy game seems like an oxymoron, but there's no inherent contradiction. It's actually a pretty interesting way to play Fire Emblem. It's a shame it wasn't adopted faithfully and we basically just got the maps as if that's all BS Fire Emblem ever was. Another example of how it is was utilized, originally the recruitment condition for Frost, Dice and Malice was timed based. They would join at a certain minute mark instead of moving someone to talk to them. Isn't that just more novel than what were used to? How does it even work if it's in the middle of the enemy's turn? Similarly reinforcements were based on real time as was stuff like Brzark deciding to start moving. I won't exactly want a whole Fire Emblem game revolving around doing stuff like that, because it would make things more about reaction speed eventually, but as special bonus maps you're graded on BS was perfect for experimenting with real time like this.

They also could have felt more relevant if the BS characters were framed in the main story as bonus content you only get if you have cleared BS saga first. Because they did a really poor job implementing them into the main story. If BS was some kind of paralogue you can play in the midst of your main campaign for tangible rewards then there'd be further reason to play them. The Sable Knights, Frost, Malice and Dice all showing up to help randomly out of nowhere would feel a lot less random if it was a direct result of me clearing Archanea Saga, even though nothing in universe would be different.

Also they were originally fully voice acted and that wasn't replicated even though the DS was fully capable of it.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Jotari

[Aedan7479]

I like the idea of real time based reinforcements on rout maps because it rewards players for acting quickly. Excluding voice acting from New Mystery makes sense because why bonus content be fully voiced while the main game isn't? Also, yes, the DS is capable, but the quality isn't ideal. I also like the idea that resetting the turn doesn't reset the clock; it gives you more to weigh up.

Thinking about it, the reason it was half-hearted was almost certainly a budget issue; I don't need to restate the situation of the franchise at that time. Though I do agree with having the 'standardised versions', so to speak, as options, but then some rewards should be only obtainable through the 'original versions'.

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Aedan7479 said:

I like the idea of real time based reinforcements on rout maps because it rewards players for acting quickly. Excluding voice acting from New Mystery makes sense because why bonus content be fully voiced while the main game isn't? Also, yes, the DS is capable, but the quality isn't ideal. I also like the idea that resetting the turn doesn't reset the clock; it gives you more to weigh up.

Thinking about it, the reason it was half-hearted was almost certainly a budget issue; I don't need to restate the situation of the franchise at that time. Though I do agree with having the 'standardised versions', so to speak, as options, but then some rewards should be only obtainable through the 'original versions'.

I didn't think it would have been that difficult to actually implement a real time active during the game. A turn rewind would be also be pretty easy, especially if it's limited to just "start of this turn", as that's basically just a save state. New Mystery does not feel like a game that stretched it's budget. In fact, quite the opposite, it looked like they were scurrying to fill it with more content what with the BS Chapters/characters, assassination Gaidens, avatar, supports, training barracks, casual mode, random item pick ups, Kris getting a variety of hair options just for funsies. The series might have been balancing on the edge of a knife at the time, but that doesn't mean New Mystery was working on a shoestring. They already had the engine for the game made and could reuse half the portraits from the previous game and had half the script already written because of the SNES version. And then they were able to make Awakening afterwards without any apparent finding issues.

[Acacia Sgt]

Yeah... no thanks. If maps had time limits, I don't think I'd ever beat them. I don't want that kind of pressure and stress on what is meant to be "you have all the time you need to plan your actions". So I'm glad they ditched that. Keep that as a special optional mode for those who want it, but don't force it on us.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeah... no thanks. If maps had time limits, I don't think I'd ever beat them. I don't want that kind of pressure on what is meant to be "you have all the time you need to plan your actions". So I'm glad they ditched that. Keep that as a special optional mode for those who want it, but don't force it on us.

I should clarify that you actually win when time runs out. It wasn't a case of "win within the time limit". You could actually leave the game on for the entire timespan and not make any moves at all and achieve victory. Only then your score would probably be zero.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I should clarify that you actually win when time runs out. It wasn't a case of "win within the time limit". You could actually leave the game on for the entire timespan and not make any moves at all and achieve victory. Only then your score would probably be zero.

I'm aware, since you get scored. But that sort of thing won't exactly fly in a proper story campaign, since otherwise you'd just let the timer run out every time and you can finish the game by doing nothing. *insert Luigi here*

Unless they'd pull a Mystery or Binding and gate a true ending based on score, in order to pressure you to actually try to finish the maps within the time limit or close enough to it. So, again, put that thing as an optional thing, or don't put it at all.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'm aware, since you get scored. But that sort of thing won't exactly fly in a proper story campaign, since otherwise you'd just let the timer run out every time and you can finish the game by doing nothing. *insert Luigi here*

Unless they'd pull a Mystery or Binding and gate a true ending based on score, in order to pressure you to actually try to finish the maps within the time limit or close enough to it. So, again, put that thing as an optional thing, or don't put it at all.

Well integrating it into the main campaign I can imagine you getting certain rewards depending on what score you get. Run out the clock and get a score of zero and you're rewarded with a used potion or laundry pole or something. Get a reasonably high score and you get the characters and some stat boosters and stuff. If it's not integrated into the main campaign and is just an option on the menu like it is now then it's a somewhat immaterial difference as bonus content as the only difference in how standard or non standard it is in comparison with the rest of the game.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

My take is: The real-time system was a product of release method. It was an adaptation to the Sattelaview service. In re-releasing them on a non-Sattepaview format, it doesn't make sense to retain the real-time system. In fact, it'd be bizarre and incongruous for these remade mini-missions not to operate on the same mechanics as the main campaign. It's the same characters in the same world on the same cartridge, so why do they play by two different sets of rules?

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

They also could have felt more relevant if the BS characters were framed in the main story as bonus content you only get if you have cleared BS saga first. Because they did a really poor job implementing them into the main story. If BS was some kind of paralogue you can play in the midst of your main campaign for tangible rewards then there'd be further reason to play them. The Sable Knights, Frost, Malice and Dice all showing up to help randomly out of nowhere would feel a lot less random if it was a direct result of me clearing Archanea Saga, even though nothing in universe would be different.

That would've been a cool way to do it. It's clear that none of them are "necessary" characters, since they didn't exist in Old Mystery. And the cast is already ballooned by units originally left behind in FE1, plus the new additions made by Shadow Dragon. Still, I wouldn't put them in the middld of the main campaign, but keep them extraneous, to be played whenever the player feels like it (kind of like "Rise of the Deliverance", in Echoes). If you've beaten them on a high enough difficulty level, then the units in question join you. So, if you beat the BS map with the Sable Knights on Normal, then they'll join you on Normal, but not on Hard or above.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

I don´t think there´s a way to integrate rts in FE. 

It´s just gonna lead to some people looking up stats and mathing out the ideal path and then resetting till the rng blesses you, as tends to be the case with challenge formats.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Imuabicus der Fertige

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Let's say that they did incorporate the RT time limit and scoring system for those maps. I do wonder if we would be sitting in that alternate reality saying "I wish they did the BS maps like normal trial maps instead". The grass is always greener, but I expect I'd err on the side of "at least they took the opportunity to give us something unique in a side mode you never have to play"

FE12 didn't release on the Satellaview or on the arcades. There was no real time element to the platform they had to design for. When FE12 makes cuts to it's mechanics, there's usually a logic to it. Take for example Chapter 1, they expanded the size of the valley and removed the mountain tiles. In FE3, that's an organic Dismount tutorial. Meant to show the player that your cavs can't cross mountains, but Marth has no problem. So the player that probably never selected the Dismount command will say to themselves "oh, that's why that's there". And now they know without Sothis having to pause the action to break out a five minute primer on how Monsters work. Why did FE12 remove dismounting in the first place? Nobody could say. It'd be like removing Canto from an FE4 remake. Senseless debauchery of game design.

[Jotari]

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My take is: The real-time system was a product of release method. It was an adaptation to the Sattelaview service. In re-releasing them on a non-Sattepaview format, it doesn't make sense to retain the real-time system. In fact, it'd be bizarre and incongruous for these remade mini-missions not to operate on the same mechanics as the main campaign. It's the same characters in the same world on the same cartridge, so why do they play by two different sets of rules?

 

This is true, but can't it be both? It was a product of the release method in the same way a lot of games were designed around motion controls. The real time aspect is a product of it's environment, but it's one that will inevitably impact the gameplay, for better or for worse (though in this case I will say, for more interesting). The real time aspect of BS might even have been part of the motivation to make the game.

10 hours ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

I don´t think there´s a way to integrate rts in FE. 

It´s just gonna lead to some people looking up stats and mathing out the ideal path and then resetting till the rng blesses you, as tends to be the case with challenge formats.

And what's wrong with that? If some people are getting so invested in the scoring system then good for them. It's not like we don't already have that with LTCers in standard Fire Emblem.

8 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Let's say that they did incorporate the RT time limit and scoring system for those maps. I do wonder if we would be sitting in that alternate reality saying "I wish they did the BS maps like normal trial maps instead". The grass is always greener, but I expect I'd err on the side of "at least they took the opportunity to give us something unique in a side mode you never have to play"

FE12 didn't release on the Satellaview or on the arcades. There was no real time element to the platform they had to design for. When FE12 makes cuts to it's mechanics, there's usually a logic to it. Take for example Chapter 1, they expanded the size of the valley and removed the mountain tiles. In FE3, that's an organic Dismount tutorial. Meant to show the player that your cavs can't cross mountains, but Marth has no problem. So the player that probably never selected the Dismount command will say to themselves "oh, that's why that's there". And now they know without Sothis having to pause the action to break out a five minute primer on how Monsters work. Why did FE12 remove dismounting in the first place? Nobody could say. It'd be like removing Canto from an FE4 remake. Senseless debauchery of game design.

New Mystery likely doesn't have dismount because Shadow Dragon was made first and didn't have dismount. And there is, I believe, some evidence they were toying the idea of having dismount in Shadow Dragon, but when they ditched the idea there they ditched it for the engine entirely. On the bright side not having it in Shadow Dragon gave everyone's favorite character Heimler a reason to exist.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Jotari

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

And what's wrong with that? If some people are getting so invested in the scoring system then good for them. It's not like we don't already have that with LTCers in standard Fire Emblem.

Yeah, I think implementing a time based scoring system, with presumably time based rewards (I am speaking about campaign wide rts implementation here) is nothing other than a bad idea, and could only be seen as tryna appeal to what I would assume to be a very small part of the nebulous FE community.

I know I wouldn´t play such a game, because I´m not playing FE to check a clock on time passed, but that´s just me. Unless it´s entirely bragging rights with no ingame rewards, in which case I would find it an irrelevant addition to begin with, but that´s also just me.

 

Unexplored showerthought: we already have "time" as a category, namely destroyable villages, vulnerable recruitables and map turn limits who fit the genre of SRPG quite well imo, so we don´t need superimposed artificial ones.