How should Marth use the Binding Shield in Smash Bros.?

[Jotari]

So, Marth has a shield. It's kind of important. In fact it is the titular Fire Emblem. Yet it isn't really acknowledged at all in Smash Bros. Which is a bit funny since Marth didn't have super obvious specials. They went to Thracia's Swordmaster animation for inspiration and never used the actual dragon sealing shield he has? A bit odd. I think the explanation might be Link. Back in Melee they didn't want to make Marth too similar to Link, so Link kept his shield while Marth ditched his. But twenty years on I think we can come up with some ideas for him to keep it.

My first would be to have it replace counter as his Down Special and make it more like Sephiroth's Scintilla. It's still a counter, but a block and counter. The second would be to make it some kind of paralyzing move, as it is designed to seal dragons. Either by again keeping it as a counter, or by making it like Mewtwo's disable. Another option would be to just incorporate it into his final smash.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Marth is known for going around to villages, and collecting tribute. The Fire Emblem lets him open chests, getting free items. So, it should work the same way in Smash. By flashing his shield, the nearest enemy has to give him whatever item they just picked up as "tribute". They lose it, and he gains it. He can then use said item to his own ends.

[Jotari]

50 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Marth is known for going around to villages, and collecting tribute. The Fire Emblem lets him open chests, getting free items. So, it should work the same way in Smash. By flashing his shield, the nearest enemy has to give him whatever item they just picked up as "tribute". They lose it, and he gains it. He can then use said item to his own ends.

That would be such an esoteric way of implementing it, I can only assume you're joking. But, that being said, the ability to steal held items from other fighters in Smash would be an interesting one. Even if items are off it would still have utility for stuff like Peach's turnips and Link's bombs. I have made some Pokemon movesets where the attack thief acted in such a way.

[Dark Holy Elf]

So uh, confession here: I don't actually remember Marth ever using his shield. Just plain can't picture it. Normally you'd expect a promoted form might have it, but Marth famously doesn't promote. I just did a ten-second google image search and can't find an image of him with his shield except some bonus form from Heroes (Brave?). I'll happily concede my memory of both Shadow Dragon and New Mystery is fairly poor, but still...

I think this is related to why Smash (and others) tend to ignore the shield, though.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

So uh, confession here: I don't actually remember Marth ever using his shield. Just plain can't picture it. Normally you'd expect a promoted form might have it, but Marth famously doesn't promote. I just did a ten-second google image search and can't find an image of him with his shield except some bonus form from Heroes (Brave?). I'll happily concede my memory of both Shadow Dragon and New Mystery is fairly poor, but still...

I think this is related to why Smash (and others) tend to ignore the shield, though.

It's right there on his sprite in Old Mystery

As for artwork in general, I think the cart and horse are the other way around. Super Smash Bros has probably popularized the depiction of Marth not using a shield, it being Marth's first real appearance after Old Mystery gave him the shield. Of course, the series in general tends to depict characters in their early game depiction. Ike, for example, used Ragnell in Brawl in his ranger outfit and not his Lord outfit. Byleth also appeared with black hair and the base commoner design instead of enlightened one, only showing the green hair for his final smash. And those are just smash examples, Fire Emblem is typically similar. Though when presenting more powerful promoted versions of the character Fire Emblem does use the Binding Shield. Here he is in Cipher.

And in heroes

And here's an official chibi model of him with it

 

And this piece of artwork is even in New Mystery itself.

Despite that they didn't bother putting it on his battle model in New Mystery despite it being on his Old Mystery sprite. Course in two games they never bothered giving him a unique animation for Falchion either, so there was low effort there all around.

Marth is frequently depicted without it, but it's a lot more recognized a part of him than Shiida and her wyvern as we're discussing elsewhere.

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Jotari

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Sakurai once admitted he really wanted Marth to be in the original Smash, but was cut for time. His reasons beyond that never sat right with me though. The four bonus characters were decided based on the potential to reuse model assets and animations (most easily seen with Jigglypuff looking and attacking like Kirby). But Link was right there. Marth could have been derived off of that, just with a new set of (probably boring) special moves. I really don't know why Sakurai omitted the Fire Emblem from his Melee design. Then the FE11 developers, with no admiration of the original game, decided that Melee depiction should be their basis for Marth's animations. The Ret Con lives on to this day.

I do think giving him the shield can be an attractive detail. Marth's not a crowd pleasing character, so he needs some shakeup to generate hype. As for what Marth should do with his shield, I suppose the cleanest idea is just him assuming a defensive stance for his existing Down B Counter. I wouldn't be opposed to him stealing Hero's two part F-tilt where the first hit is a shield bash. A paralyzing light blast is a fun idea though. A mid range threat that inflicts a stun if charged up. Could be a good replacement for neutral B. Especially since shieldbreaker's appeal is setting up that potential stun for a tipper kill.

And you just know Sakurai's picture of the day is him using the Emblem against Corrin. Or any other character associated with dragons. Kiryu Kazama.

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's right there on his sprite in Old Mystery

Fun detail about FE3. Chapter 1-5? No shield. Then he gets the Fire Emblem, and that's where it shows up on his battle sprite. They pull the same thing in Book 2. FE1 Marth has the shield the whole game for the record.

[Jotari]

52 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Sakurai once admitted he really wanted Marth to be in the original Smash, but was cut for time. His reasons beyond that never sat right with me though. The four bonus characters were decided based on the potential to reuse model assets and animations (most easily seen with Jigglypuff looking and attacking like Kirby). But Link was right there. Marth could have been derived off of that, just with a new set of (probably boring) special moves. I really don't know why Sakurai omitted the Fire Emblem from his Melee design. Then the FE11 developers, with no admiration of the original game, decided that Melee depiction should be their basis for Marth's animations. The Ret Con lives on to this day.

I could definitely see Marth in Smash 64 as a Link clone, with mostly the same specials as Melee (and if it were done after 64, I could see him outright retaining the Spin Attack). It's particularly easy to imagine a slow bulky Dolphin Slash in the 64 engine. Shield Breaker would probably get in over Dancing Blade for the neutral special. He might have had something other than Counter for Down Special though, as there's nothing really like that move in Smash 64. Closest is NES's PSI Magnet and the Reflector. And despite it being so associated with the Melee counters, they actually share the debut of counters with Peach.

52 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Fun detail about FE3. Chapter 1-5? No shield. Then he gets the Fire Emblem, and that's where it shows up on his battle sprite. They pull the same thing in Book 2. FE1 Marth has the shield the whole game for the record.

And of course Awakening later pulled this same detail with Chrom's model. You're right that NES Marth is depicted with a shield, I don't think we can confidently say it's the Fire Emblem since he has it from the start. Though, despite it being on his sprite, none of his NES artwork seems to show him with one. Alm certainly overshadowed Marth as the protagonist with a shield in the NES era though, with that wicked shield toss final hit animation.

Somehow having a shield and throwing it away for no real reason is more memorable than just having a shield.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

I could definitely see Marth in Smash 64 as a Link clone, with mostly the same specials as Melee (and if it were done after 64, I could see him outright retaining the Spin Attack). It's particularly easy to imagine a slow bulky Dolphin Slash in the 64 engine. Shield Breaker would probably get in over Dancing Blade for the neutral special. He might have had something other than Counter for Down Special though, as there's nothing really like that move in Smash 64. Closest is NES's PSI Magnet and the Reflector. And despite it being so associated with the Melee counters, they actually share the debut of counters with Peach.

I'd say, I've always had the same thought, about the Link clone thing due to shared base model. Though would this make Marth left-handed in Smash, or they'd be able to flip the model? Hmm...

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

And of course Awakening later pulled this same detail with Chrom's model. You're right that NES Marth is depicted with a shield, I don't think we can confidently say it's the Fire Emblem since he has it from the start. Though, despite it being on his sprite, none of his NES artwork seems to show him with one. Alm certainly overshadowed Marth as the protagonist with a shield in the NES era though, with that wicked shield toss final hit animation.

Somehow having a shield and throwing it away for no real reason is more memorable than just having a shield.

Well, in the original game the Fire Emblem was talked more as a crest than an actual shield. It was only in Mystery where it was now a shield. Still, it shows Marth has been shown as a sword-and-shield fighter since Day 1, Fire Emblem or not.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Dark Holy Elf]

Given how tight roster spots were, Marth would have been an odd choice for Smash 64. Fire Emblem just was a way more niche series than the other games represented at the time (yes, even compared to F-Zero. How times have changed...) with only the possible exception of Earthbound. And the reason to choose Ness over Marth (or, for that matter, a Mother 1 character) is a simple and obvious one: he'd actually seen an international release.

On 7/19/2023 at 9:49 PM, Jotari said:

It's right there on his sprite in Old Mystery

 

Yep, fair enough; the one FE game I've not watched nor played in any form. Beyond that, I think you hit on the reason that Smash (and indeed, other crossovers, including Heroes) tend to focus on the character in their earliest form for whatever reason, which in Marth's case means no shield.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Given how tight roster spots were, Marth would have been an odd choice for Smash 64. Fire Emblem just was a way more niche series than the other games represented at the time (yes, even compared to F-Zero. How times have changed...) with only the possible exception of Earthbound. And the reason to choose Ness over Marth (or, for that matter, a Mother 1 character) is a simple and obvious one: he'd actually seen an international release.

I mean, there wasn't much change by the time of Melee, yet they still gave Marth and Roy a chance.

If Marth had been included, they could just not add either of Luigi or Jigglypuff. I suppose they getting a second rep in Smash 64 was not surprising, but at the same time, perhaps it's because they could just reuse models. Mario's for Luigi (Ness also uses the same base model, from what I recall too), and Kirby's for Jigglypuff. Thus, if it's a matter of the character needing to reuse a base model, then Marth taking after Link's would've been doable too.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Perkilator]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I mean, there wasn't much change by the time of Melee, yet they still gave Marth and Roy a chance.

If Marth had been included, they could just not add either of Luigi or Jigglypuff.

I’ll do you one better: if Smash 64 had more of a budget and wasn’t hampered by time constraints, I could see Marth getting in alongside Bowser, Dedede and Mewtwo while the Luigi stays untouched and Jigglypuff is the only one that’s particularly likely to be outright replaced (my bias demands that Meowth be the replacement but that’s besides the point).

[Jotari]

Fire Emblem had already proven itself a pretty successful title with four games and a spin off by the time Smash 64 was out. Definitely would have been a bigger name than Earthbound, which despite getting an international release, didn't actually do that well. Though NES did have more unique moveset potential than hypothetical Link clone Marth.

[AnonymousSpeed]

I kinda like Melee Marth and his continuation in the series. Obviously a lot of people do, since it's not only the definitive image of the character for many people, but it's also bled back into mainline FE and Heroes- Engage has essentially made Blade Dance and Shieldbreaker canonical abilities, the Melee design is used for the DS games and everything after, etc.

I think there's something very appealing about the suavity, the elegance, of Melee Marth. It's not a perfect fit for how he acts in the main series, but I think there's something very interesting about that aloofness as its own character. The use of the shield would probably render him bulkier, more serious, less regally vain, and ultimately detract from the personality of the Smash moveset. Counter is not merely a counter, it is a parry of perfect precision. A shield is not necessary for a prince with such swiftness and finesse.

So, to take it back to the original question- I don't think he should use the shield in Smash. I like the design already.

Besides, how's he gonna grab you from afar with the shield taking up his hand?

Edited July 22, 2023 by AnonymousSpeed

[Dark Holy Elf]

7 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I mean, there wasn't much change by the time of Melee, yet they still gave Marth and Roy a chance.

If Marth had been included, they could just not add either of Luigi or Jigglypuff.

The big difference with Melee is that the roster was now about double in size, so more slots were available to represent different Nintendo franchises.

Luigi and Jigglypuff were/are both extremely popular characters. Mario and Pokemon were (and honestly still are) waaay ahead of other Nintendo franchises in terms of impact. Sure, you could cut one of them for a Japan-only character, but we shouldn't be even the slightest bit surprised that the Smash devs opted not to do so.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Fire Emblem had already proven itself a pretty successful title with four games and a spin off by the time Smash 64 was out. Definitely would have been a bigger name than Earthbound, which despite getting an international release, didn't actually do that well.

Yeah, Ness vs. Marth is definitely one you could argue. I dunno about it being "definitely" a bigger name than Earthbound; the most successful Fire Emblem sold 780k, while Earthbound was at 660k. (Granted, "rest of the Fire Emblem series" also outsells "rest of Mother" due to number of titles alone; I'm not looking up specifics.) That's a lead but not a huge one, certainly it's close enough that other considerations might win out.

I would generally agree that Ness is the most surprising member of the Smash 64 roster. Marth, to me, would be about equally surprising.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The big difference with Melee is that the roster was now about double in size, so more slots were available to represent different Nintendo franchises.

Luigi and Jigglypuff were/are both extremely popular characters. Mario and Pokemon were (and honestly still are) waaay ahead of other Nintendo franchises in terms of impact. Sure, you could cut one of them for a Japan-only character, but we shouldn't be even the slightest bit surprised that the Smash devs opted not to do so.

Hence the "I suppose they getting a second rep in Smash 64 was not surprising". But yes, they choose to capitalize on that over adding one more series to represent.

1 minute ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, Ness vs. Marth is definitely one you could argue. I dunno about it being "definitely" a bigger name than Earthbound; the most successful Fire Emblem sold 780k, while Earthbound was at 660k. (Granted, "rest of the Fire Emblem series" also outsells "rest of Mother" due to number of titles alone; I'm not looking up specifics.) That's a lead but not a huge one, certainly it's close enough that other considerations might win out.

I would generally agree that Ness is the most surprising member of the Smash 64 roster. Marth, to me, would be about equally surprising.

If I recall, Earthbound 64 had yet to be announced it was cancelled. Also, from what I recall reading up, part of the Mother's series appeal in Japan is that it's made by Shigesato Itoi. Perhaps for the Japan of the late 90's, Mother was quite at its peak to be a good idea to have one representative in Smash.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The big difference with Melee is that the roster was now about double in size, so more slots were available to represent different Nintendo franchises.

Luigi and Jigglypuff were/are both extremely popular characters. Mario and Pokemon were (and honestly still are) waaay ahead of other Nintendo franchises in terms of impact. Sure, you could cut one of them for a Japan-only character, but we shouldn't be even the slightest bit surprised that the Smash devs opted not to do so.

Yeah, Ness vs. Marth is definitely one you could argue. I dunno about it being "definitely" a bigger name than Earthbound; the most successful Fire Emblem sold 780k, while Earthbound was at 660k. (Granted, "rest of the Fire Emblem series" also outsells "rest of Mother" due to number of titles alone; I'm not looking up specifics.) That's a lead but not a huge one, certainly it's close enough that other considerations might win out.

I would generally agree that Ness is the most surprising member of the Smash 64 roster. Marth, to me, would be about equally surprising.

If those numbers are true and the best selling Fire Emblem game made more money than the best selling Mother game, despite the latter getting an international release, and Fire Emblem had more successful games in the same time frame, then I think that definitely is warrented.