Are the low exp Dawn Brigade chapters a problem that needs to be fixed?

[Jotari]

Dawn Brigade is famous for two things. Not having proper characterization and having huge difficulty spike in Part 3 chapters due to a dearth of exp. Dawn Brigade actually has more chapters than Greil Mercs, the issue is that the Greil Mercs all start promoted while the Dawn Brigade needs to wade through the trainee tier of the faux three class system, putting them significantly behind.

But is this a bad thing? Isn't it gameplay story integration? Micaiah's group are less experienced and are narratively outmatched by Ike. Isn't it good that this is reflected in gameplay? And, I don't know about you, but the Dawn Brigade chapters are some of the most memorable in the game, while the early part 3 chapters, the easiest ones, are some of the least memorable. People seem to treat this imbalance as an issue, but maybe it's making both a better story and a more fun gameplay experience.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I like the underdog feel of the group too. The Protect Micaiah chapter is definitely there to communicate to us that the Dawn Brigade are not the big players of Tellius. Even a level 20 Michaiah will just die if you don't hide. I can only assume it was intentional story integration just as the Act 3 maps aren't Seize or Rout, but rather "just kill enough of them and/or Defend this Point" But I guess if you're super dialed in to the gameplay all you can really think about is how unfair the game is being in Act 3. How you must have done something wrong in Act 1 if the Dawn Brigade is that much weaker than Ike's crew who you just got done steam rolling maps with. It's a demoralizing situation that leaves little way for the developers to say "no, this is normal, just stick with it"

One approach they could have taken is just reduce enemy density. Design the enemies to be even tougher, but make it so the player can dogpile them a few at a time. I think you can still get the underdog angle across that way. But the immediate issue with that is the less combat exp means the Dawn Brigade falls even further behind. You could pump more bonus exp into the player to compensate, but there's always that type of player that compulsively saves every finite resource handed to them - a blind player wouldn't know this is the hardest part of the game and that this is the time to spend. The next issue is that the victory conditions of these specific chapters is Defeat X amount of enemies, so that number would need to be adjusted accordingly.

[Aedan7479]

Well Goran, the boss of Part 3 Chapter 11 (the bridge chapter), is a level 17 Warrior, which is most likely higher than anyone in Micahah's party (except Tauroneo), and he’s just a minor boss. So I'd say story wise, the Dawn Brigade are supposed to be on the same level as the Greil Mercenaries. Plus, there's already story/gameplay integration with how much the Dawn Brigade is outnumbered.

What doesn't help that the Dawn Brigade has some of the worst units in the game, which wouldn't be a problem if they had more units, but the deployment number is equal to the Max units they can have at that point in the game, including Jill and Zihark, who you might’ve given to the Greil Mercenaries.

[Jotari]

40 minutes ago, Aedan7479 said:

Well Goran, the boss of Part 3 Chapter 11 (the bridge chapter), is a level 17 Warrior, which is most likely higher than anyone in Micahah's party (except Tauroneo), and he’s just a minor boss. So I'd say story wise, the Dawn Brigade are supposed to be on the same level as the Greil Mercenaries. Plus, there's already story/gameplay integration with how much the Dawn Brigade is outnumbered.

Tauroneo is a lv 14 General at base, and you have like two part 1 chapters with him by that point. So Goran is almost certainly a higher level than him too. Though Tauroneo might be statistically better.

40 minutes ago, Aedan7479 said:

What doesn't help that the Dawn Brigade has some of the worst units in the game, which wouldn't be a problem if they had more units, but the deployment number is equal to the Max units they can have at that point in the game, including Jill and Zihark, who you might’ve given to the Greil Mercenaries.

Surely that's not true. Holy cow it is! 13 units 13 character slots. Wow they really should have created some more characters to join in part 1. Or just contrived Tormod's gang to stay. Of the units available for Part 3, Fiona is like the only one recruited in the second half of part 1, and they give the Dawn Brigade no extra ones in part 3. Micaiah is a messiah that has people falling over themselves to fight for her, but no actual new recruits for the party. Why not an auto join playable character utterly devoured to her to exemplify that?

Edited July 26, 2023 by Jotari

[Aedan7479]

Strange, isn't it? Of course, any new characters would have the trouble of being... well characters, when many of the new characters are already underdevelopment, I mean for crying out loud, the only time Brom and Meg talk is on the battlefield! On opposing sides!

I don't think Tormod and Co. Could realistically be in the Dawn Brigade in part 3 though, especially considering their first chapter is killing a bunch of retreating Laguz.

Another possible solution could be to make the special Dawn Brigade weapons (the ones that were added internationally) Laguz effective, which would significantly help in two of the three Part 3 Dawn Brigade chapters. Maybe also just adding Laguz effective weapons in general; it’s an odd exclusion anyway.

[Jotari]

54 minutes ago, Aedan7479 said:

Strange, isn't it? Of course, any new characters would have the trouble of being... well characters, when many of the new characters are already underdevelopment, I mean for crying out loud, the only time Brom and Meg talk is on the battlefield! On opposing sides!

I don't think Tormod and Co. Could realistically be in the Dawn Brigade in part 3 though, especially considering their first chapter is killing a bunch of retreating Laguz.

Another possible solution could be to make the special Dawn Brigade weapons (the ones that were added internationally) Laguz effective, which would significantly help in two of the three Part 3 Dawn Brigade chapters. Maybe also just adding Laguz effective weapons in general; it’s an odd exclusion anyway.

Volug has no compunctions about fighting Laguz, though he's a foreigner so maybe he just doesn't care in general. I feel like Vika could stay, since she's so underdeveloped. Can't be out of character if you have no character. Making Iyana just not leave would be an option too. I get that they wanted some unit to transcend the army split...but it really should have went in the opposite direction. And by losing Tormod and Ilyana we also lose all our anima mages, right? Meaning no fire for Laguz effectiveness (though I don't think Ilyana can use fire magic, she certainly can't at base).

Sothe has a Laguz effective knife doesn't he? And there is the beast foe skill.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Either all the Dawn Brigade units should get some auto-levels in after Part I ends, or the player should get a huge BEXP dump right before III-6. It's been, like, a year since they restored Daein. You're telling me they haven't been training at all? Not even skirmishes and practice battles? If that's the case, then theg deserve to struggle.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I feel like Vika could stay, since she's so underdeveloped. Can't be out of character if you have no character.

Vika does have a character, where she's totally awkward around Micaiah, not realizing it's due to he Branded status. Anyway, as someone who was freed from slavery, I have to imagine she would sympathize with the Laguz Alliance. Likewise with Tormod and Muarim. Volug, contrarily, knows nothing of Begnion, and continues to do Queen Nailah's bidding.

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Surely that's not true. Holy cow it is! 13 units 13 character slots. Wow they really should have created some more characters to join in part 1.

In a similar vein, I've been meaning to make a thread about potential "replacement units" in Radiant Dawn. Lost Edward in Part I? Here, have Edsel the Swordmaster!

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Tauroneo is a lv 14 General at base, and you have like two part 1 chapters with him by that point. So Goran is almost certainly a higher level than him too. Though Tauroneo might be statistically better.

Goran's got much better stats than Tauroneo, actually

(Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Luck Def Res)

Tauroneo*

Lance General

14

38

24

12

22

20

18

21

15

 

Goran

Warrior

17

50

28

5

24

25

11

22

13

On top of this, Goran has +1 move and isn't weak to Hammers. So, if Goran joined your army in 3-12 he'd be your best combat unit by far. It's a bit of a weird disconnect.

I will say that overall I agree with your original post and don't really mind the feeling of the Dawn Brigade as underlevelled underdogs. Their maps are some of the most fun in the game to me, though I understand why someone would dislike them if they're used to stomping things. I do think they could have probably have afforded to give you a bit more of a power boost in part 3, e.g. with a new recruit, especially since they don't even give you Tauroneo for 3-6. I think they were trying to make you feel like the Black Knight was bailing you out, but honestly the way the map works I rarely find him that relevant, either I die before he appears or I get the map under control and he isn't able to do very much because of all the water.

[lenticular]

It's fairly standard in Fire Emblem for the player characters to start out as underdogs. Ike starts out having a sparring match before being allowed out on his first actual mission. The Three Houses students all have lines about taking lives for the first time. Engage starts you off with an old man, two school-age kids, and someone who's just woken from a coma. They're hardly an elite fighting force. And then, over the course of the game, through training and recruitment, they grow strong until they eventually become world-beaters. It's a well-worn trope.

From a storytelling perspective, the issue with the Dawn Brigade isn't that they're a bunch of plucky underdogs; it's that they never really grow out of this status. It's like having an underdog sports story where the team ends up finishing 17th in their league. Which on the one hand, of course they did! They had no experience, equipment or facilities. It's the realistic outcome. But on the other hand, did we really want the realistic outcome? Typically, the whole point of underdog stories is the triumph against adversity. And the Dawn Brigade doesn't really have that. They just muddle along as best they can and then the other better armies come along and save the day.

And sure, you absolutely can take Dawn Brigade units to the tower, but they're likely to make up a smaller portion of your team relative to how much game time they get.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Goran's got much better stats than Tauroneo, actually

(Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Luck Def Res)

Tauroneo*

Lance General

14

38

24

12

22

20

18

21

15

 

Goran

Warrior

17

50

28

5

24

25

11

22

13

On top of this, Goran has +1 move and isn't weak to Hammers. So, if Goran joined your army in 3-12 he'd be your best combat unit by far. It's a bit of a weird disconnect.

I will say that overall I agree with your original post and don't really mind the feeling of the Dawn Brigade as underlevelled underdogs. Their maps are some of the most fun in the game to me, though I understand why someone would dislike them if they're used to stomping things. I do think they could have probably have afforded to give you a bit more of a power boost in part 3, e.g. with a new recruit, especially since they don't even give you Tauroneo for 3-6. I think they were trying to make you feel like the Black Knight was bailing you out, but honestly the way the map works I rarely find him that relevant, either I die before he appears or I get the map under control and he isn't able to do very much because of all the water.

I guess I'm surprised and not surprised. I mainly just remember Tauroneo being able to single handedly tank a ledge on the left part of the following map, so I assumed he was still pretty decent by that point. But I think that might come down a lot to his skill (he has Resolve, I think) and also being on top of a ledge being busted in Radiant Dawn. Goran meanwhile uses a Crossbow, which is awesome, only dedicated Crossbow wielder in the series, but it also means that pretty high 28 strength isn't doing him any favors as a boss at all (course in the hands of a player you could promote him, give him a brave axe and he'd be practically tower ready).

Goran is cool fun and weird for existing, so I'm glad he does, but I probably would have made Tauroneo the boss of that chapter (possibly with a scripted death, though that might give the false impression that killing the Greil Mercs in 3-12 would also be a permanent thing).

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Jotari

[Dark Holy Elf]

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

From a storytelling perspective, the issue with the Dawn Brigade isn't that they're a bunch of plucky underdogs; it's that they never really grow out of this status. It's like having an underdog sports story where the team ends up finishing 17th in their league. Which on the one hand, of course they did! They had no experience, equipment or facilities. It's the realistic outcome. But on the other hand, did we really want the realistic outcome? Typically, the whole point of underdog stories is the triumph against adversity. And the Dawn Brigade doesn't really have that. They just muddle along as best they can and then the other better armies come along and save the day.

I'd say the analogy is closer to a sports story in a league with relegation, in which the Dawn Brigade finishing 17th is still an accomplishment because the 18th-place team meets a much worse fate. And then, I dunno, maybe some of their star players are chosen for the all-star game or something. There's a reason this isn't as well-travelled a trope, but I still enjoyed it fairly well as a one-off. The part 3 maps are very satisfying to survive, the the Greil Mercs showing up in 3-13 is a wonderful "oh shit" moment which nevertheless requires some player interaction.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

I guess I'm surprised and not surprised. I mainly just remember Tauroneo being able to single handedly tank a ledge on the left part of the following map, so I assumed he was still pretty decent by that point.

Yeah, Tauroneo is absolutely decent at that point. More than decent, I'd expect him to be one of your very best units (basically losing only to someone who was favoured considerably in previous maps). The stats posted aren't intended as a condemnation of him, just to observe how Goran would just be ridiculously good for the DB at that point (I'm pretty sure he'd one round every enemy on 3-12, many of them with a Hand Axe, all while having better bulk than the team's overlevelled General). And this is just the result of being designed as a boss for the Ike's team, which by this point features units who are in late tier 2, maybe even a few in tier 3, while the DB are probably still in early tier 2.

And of course it's not just Goran. The generic enemies you face in 3-11, who are Daein soldiers, would all be largely better units than the ones you have in the DB maps (supports aside). I think you just have to not take this too literally for the story to make sense.

[Aedan7479]

5 hours ago, lenticular said:

It's fairly standard in Fire Emblem for the player characters to start out as underdogs. Ike starts out having a sparring match before being allowed out on his first actual mission. The Three Houses students all have lines about taking lives for the first time. Engage starts you off with an old man, two school-age kids, and someone who's just woken from a coma. They're hardly an elite fighting force. And then, over the course of the game, through training and recruitment, they grow strong until they eventually become world-beaters. It's a well-worn trope.

From a storytelling perspective, the issue with the Dawn Brigade isn't that they're a bunch of plucky underdogs; it's that they never really grow out of this status. It's like having an underdog sports story where the team ends up finishing 17th in their league. Which on the one hand, of course they did! They had no experience, equipment or facilities. It's the realistic outcome. But on the other hand, did we really want the realistic outcome? Typically, the whole point of underdog stories is the triumph against adversity. And the Dawn Brigade doesn't really have that. They just muddle along as best they can and then the other better armies come along and save the day.

And sure, you absolutely can take Dawn Brigade units to the tower, but they're likely to make up a smaller portion of your team relative to how much game time they get.

I agree with this, though Jill starts out as a Dawn Brigade member, and I'm sure many people took her into the tower. Admittedly though, most growth units are pushed to the side considering all the great units your giving in part 4. The Crimean army is arguably in the same position as the Dawn Brigade, but they already had Path of Radiance to shine, plus, part 2 made better use of various characters.

 

This might be a bit of a tangent, but I also think Fiona should've been WAY better unit than she is, seeing as she gets considerable build up, and is the Daughter of one of the Great Riders.

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Volug has no compunctions about fighting Laguz, though he's a foreigner so maybe he just doesn't care in general. I feel like Vika could stay, since she's so underdeveloped. Can't be out of character if you have no character. Making Iyana just not leave would be an option too. I get that they wanted some unit to transcend the army split...but it really should have went in the opposite direction. And by losing Tormod and Ilyana we also lose all our anima mages, right? Meaning no fire for Laguz effectiveness (though I don't think Ilyana can use fire magic, she certainly can't at base).

Sothe has a Laguz effective knife doesn't he? And there is the beast foe skill.

I wish Ilyana could've stayed with the Dawn Brigade, but she's tied to the merchants. Sure, they also could have stayed, but then we'd lose a great base conversation with Soren and Aimee.

As for Vika, I like the idea of her staying to get more comfortable around Micaiah, but it's pushing believability if you have her fight for the Bengion Senators, she's not even tied down by the blood- wait, she's from Kilvas, right? Does their blood affect her? That's definitely a tangent.

And no, Sothe doesn't have a Laguz effective Knife, I did forget about beast foe skull though.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Aedan7479 said:

I agree with this, though Jill starts out as a Dawn Brigade member, and I'm sure many people took her into the tower. Admittedly though, most growth units are pushed to the side considering all the great units your giving in part 4. The Crimean army is arguably in the same position as the Dawn Brigade, but they already had Path of Radiance to shine, plus, part 2 made better use of various characters.

 

This might be a bit of a tangent, but I also think Fiona should've been WAY better unit than she is, seeing as she gets considerable build up, and is the Daughter of one of the Great Riders.

I wish Ilyana could've stayed with the Dawn Brigade, but she's tied to the merchants. Sure, they also could have stayed, but then we'd lose a great base conversation with Soren and Aimee.

As for Vika, I like the idea of her staying to get more comfortable around Micaiah, but it's pushing believability if you have her fight for the Bengion Senators, she's not even tied down by the blood- wait, she's from Kilvas, right? Does their blood affect her? That's definitely a tangent.

And no, Sothe doesn't have a Laguz effective Knife, I did forget about beast foe skull though.

He does

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Beast_Killer

You buy it in Part 1, just before fighting Pain and Agony.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'd say the analogy is closer to a sports story in a league with relegation, in which the Dawn Brigade finishing 17th is still an accomplishment because the 18th-place team meets a much worse fate. And then, I dunno, maybe some of their star players are chosen for the all-star game or something. There's a reason this isn't as well-travelled a trope, but I still enjoyed it fairly well as a one-off. The part 3 maps are very satisfying to survive, the the Greil Mercs showing up in 3-13 is a wonderful "oh shit" moment which nevertheless requires some player interaction.

Building off of this, it's actually like the Dawn Brigade starts at 17th place, but picks up a few ringers and astounds the world by finishing in first! ...In Part I. By Part III, they've been "promoted" to the big leagues. Without any practice between then and now, and the loss of a few key players, they really struggle to even survive.

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

And of course it's not just Goran. The generic enemies you face in 3-11, who are Daein soldiers, would all be largely better units than the ones you have in the DB maps (supports aside). I think you just have to not take this too literally for the story to make sense.

This really comes down to the developers wanting to put returning playable characters on another power level, relative to the newcomers. By having Ike and the Greil Mercenaries start in second tier, they need Goran (and Daein generics in general) to be up high in the same tier, to present a real challenge. If most of the Mercs had joined in first-tier, then something like a "level 3 Warrior Goran" could've been a perfectly reasonable boss at that point. While also leaving the Dawn Brigade, most of whom are still first-tier or freshly promoted, able to keep up in their Part III and IV chapters. The game instead institutes a three-tier system, but doesn't give any single unit enough playtime to realistically make it through more than two full tiers.

6 hours ago, Aedan7479 said:

wait, she's from Kilvas, right? Does their blood affect her? That's definitely a tangent.

Vika is from the Grann Desert, in Begnion. In her defeat quotes, she mentions it as her home. So, whild she may be ancestrally from Kilvas, it's not clear whether she was born, or even ever visited, there. I assume she'd be immune to the blood pact on Kilvas, if its effect were triggered. But I can't say for sure.

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Why not an auto join playable character utterly devoured to her to exemplify that?

...That's a little hot, not gonna lie. Still, again I agree that getting one such character would be cool. Especially if they could use Fire magic.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

...That's a little hot, not gonna lie. Still, again I agree that getting one such character would be cool. Especially if they could use Fire magic.

There's two ways I can handle this. Either admit to an autocorrect typo if what should have been devoted, or make some kind of Micaiah shipping incest joke. But I've got nothing good for the latter. So former it is.

[Dark Holy Elf]

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Building off of this, it's actually like the Dawn Brigade starts at 17th place, but picks up a few ringers and astounds the world by finishing in first! ...In Part I. By Part III, they've been "promoted" to the big leagues. Without any practice between then and now, and the loss of a few key players, they really struggle to even survive.

Yes, good point, part 1 really does add a lot to them in this regard, and gets you invested in them. And part 3 really does have a "now you've graduated to the big leagues" feel to it; their story went from one played on a local stage to one that is deeply connected to a conflict which spans all of Tellius.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but Iong thought that part 1 of Radiant Dawn alone does "Typlcal FE Plot" better than most other FE games before it, despite (or perhaps because of) taking only half the time at most to do it. Obviously it has a big advantage in that it builds off a previous game for setting (so we don't need as much time devoted to that), but otherwise it gets the job done effectively, making all the major players memorable and relatable. So by the time Micaiah and friends are thrown into the awful situation of trying to balance all they've gained with the need to fight a war they want no part of, I'm invested in this struggle precisely because I've seen how hard-earned and important those gains were.

[lenticular]

On 7/26/2023 at 7:30 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'd say the analogy is closer to a sports story in a league with relegation, in which the Dawn Brigade finishing 17th is still an accomplishment because the 18th-place team meets a much worse fate. And then, I dunno, maybe some of their star players are chosen for the all-star game or something. There's a reason this isn't as well-travelled a trope, but I still enjoyed it fairly well as a one-off. The part 3 maps are very satisfying to survive, the the Greil Mercs showing up in 3-13 is a wonderful "oh shit" moment which nevertheless requires some player interaction.

I think that part of the problem that I have is that I don't feel like there's a satisfying conclusion to the Dawn Brigade arc. There's no "we won the last game of the season which means we don't get relegated" moment. The story just... stops emphasising them. I agree that 3-13 is a great chapter, but it doesn't really resolve anything. The blood pact is still in play and the war is still ongoing. The very next chapter we have a switch in perspective and get another fight between the Dawn Brigade and the Greil Mercs, this time playing as the latter.

I'm not saying I want everything to be wrapped up in a bow. That would be counterproductive to the structure of the story as a whole. But I would have liked a little more than what we got. Thinking about it, I wonder if I'd have liked it more if we got to play as the Dawn Brigade again in 3-14 (From Pain, Awakening). It could have been a final pay-off for the Dawn Brigade as a group before we split everyone up for Part IV, would probably have been a tenser finale for Part III than just another stomp with Ike and co, and would also have been a little bit more xp catch-up for the Daein crew.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

I think that part of the problem that I have is that I don't feel like there's a satisfying conclusion to the Dawn Brigade arc. There's no "we won the last game of the season which means we don't get relegated" moment. The story just... stops emphasising them. I agree that 3-13 is a great chapter, but it doesn't really resolve anything. The blood pact is still in play and the war is still ongoing. The very next chapter we have a switch in perspective and get another fight between the Dawn Brigade and the Greil Mercs, this time playing as the latter.

I'm not saying I want everything to be wrapped up in a bow. That would be counterproductive to the structure of the story as a whole. But I would have liked a little more than what we got. Thinking about it, I wonder if I'd have liked it more if we got to play as the Dawn Brigade again in 3-14 (From Pain, Awakening). It could have been a final pay-off for the Dawn Brigade as a group before we split everyone up for Part IV, would probably have been a tenser finale for Part III than just another stomp with Ike and co, and would also have been a little bit more xp catch-up for the Daein crew.

What if we never played the Dawn Brigade at all in Part 3, and then when you finish from Pain Awakening, Part 4 starts and boom, you're back in Daein and Pelleas tells you to go fight the Laguz Alliance. You then play through all the Part 3 Dawn Brigade Chapters at once in a short segment about as long as Part 2, finishing with From Pain, Awakening on their side. I think that would also make the final act plot swerve less of a 90 degree angle by denying the resolution of it a bit. The whole bomb under the table theory.

[Acacia Sgt]

Or perhaps just make Part 3 a choice over which side to follow.

The DB certainly get screwed over by the narrative. It shifts away from them, then when it comes back they're forced to play the antagonistic role in a war with a mostly defined black-and-white morality line against characters we already got to know and care about (which can result in characters defecting, even). As a result, anything they do amounts to nothing or quickly gets undone (3-6 gets undone by 3-7, they only have minimum successes in 3-12, and 3-13 is defend until you're forced to retreat instead of actually being able to repel the enemy attack), making their Part 3 game time feel pointless outside having them try to catch-up level-wise. It's telling that their problems are solved via literal Deus Ex Machina.

If the point was to make them go through the wringer, then the game certainly delivers... but from the perspective of a game, it gives few to little sense of accomplishment.

[Jotari]

19 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Or perhaps just make Part 3 a choice over which side to follow.

The DB certainly get screwed over by the narrative. It shifts away from them, then when it comes back they're forced to play the antagonistic role in a war with a mostly defined black-and-white morality line against characters we already got to know and care about (which can result in characters defecting, even). As a result, anything they do amounts to nothing or quickly gets undone (3-6 gets undone by 3-7, they only have minimum successes in 3-12, and 3-13 is defend until you're forced to retreat instead of actually being able to repel the enemy attack), making their Part 3 game time feel pointless outside having them try to catch-up level-wise. It's telling that their problems are solved via literal Deus Ex Machina.

If the point was to make them go through the wringer, then the game certainly delivers... but from the perspective of a game, it gives few to little sense of accomplishment.

I'd actually say 3-6 isn't that morally black and white. The Laguz are the aggressors and they have no clue what they'll actually do if they win. They're just acting out like a child pulling a tantrum. It's understandable that they're pissed since the senate are the biggest shit bags ever, but they're not accomplishing any positivity in the world by essentially going on a rampage where the only ones who suffer are the rank and file Begnions that have nothing to do with it. And they're actively putting the world at risk by inflaming Lehran's Medallion, which they're fully aware of and just don't care. That's the reason why the character of Skirmr is made to be such an idiot, he's firey and emblematic of the conflict of the whole (pun intended and proudly so).

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I'd actually say 3-6 isn't that morally black and white. The Laguz are the aggressors and they have no clue what they'll actually do if they win. They're just acting out like a child pulling a tantrum. It's understandable that they're pissed since the senate are the biggest shit bags ever, but they're not accomplishing any positivity in the world by essentially going on a rampage where the only ones who suffer are the rank and file Begnions that have nothing to do with it. And they're actively putting the world at risk by inflaming Lehran's Medallion, which they're fully aware of and just don't care. That's the reason why the character of Skirmr is made to be such an idiot, he's firey and emblematic of the conflict of the whole (pun intended and proudly so).

That sounds like the propaganda the Senate would spew for the masses at home.

Not 3-6, the war as a whole. The Senate murdered an Apostle (and possibly Empress too?) for daring to do things like emancipate the Laguz slaves, then blamed it on an unrelated group which resulted in almost their complete genocide. Then when the truth comes out and the Laguz do try a diplomatic approach first, the Senate kills the messengers and quickly imprison Sanaki. There is clearly a line, however you want to define it.

I mean, the same can be said the Senate was at fault they got dragged into war.

They do care, that's why the initial plans were to make it a swift operation. If the Blood Pacts weren't in effect, it's likely the Central Army would've buckled as Kilvas would've done their role with the Hawks, and Daein wouldn't get dragged in order to prolong the war. That would've already forced the Senate to the negotiations table. Heck, it was around that time Zelgius learned the Senate imprisoned Sanaki and Sephiran, so you'd sooner see even the rank and file marching against the Senate. Which did happened in late Part 3.

It's easy to blame the Laguz, but what else do you want them to do? They already tried doing it without resorting to violence.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That sounds like the propaganda the Senate would spew for the masses at home.

Not 3-6, the war as a whole. The Senate murdered an Apostle (and possibly Empress too?) for daring to do things like emancipate the Laguz slaves, then blamed it on an unrelated group which resulted in almost their complete genocide. Then when the truth comes out and the Laguz do try a diplomatic approach first, the Senate kills the messengers and quickly imprison Sanaki. There is clearly a line, however you want to define it.

I mean, the same can be said the Senate was at fault they got dragged into war.

They do care, that's why the initial plans were to make it a swift operation. If the Blood Pacts weren't in effect, it's likely the Central Army would've buckled as Kilvas would've done their role with the Hawks, and Daein wouldn't get dragged in order to prolong the war. That would've already forced the Senate to the negotiations table. Heck, it was around that time Zelgius learned the Senate imprisoned Sanaki and Sephiran, so you'd sooner see even the rank and file marching against the Senate. Which did happened in late Part 3.

It's easy to blame the Laguz, but what else do you want them to do? They already tried doing it without resorting to violence.

I'm not interested in turning the whole thing into a Three Houses thread, I'm just saying the situation isn't plain black and white and my reasons why. And I think that's something the game itself is aware of and works into its writing with Soren, Skirmr and the oft reference Laguz approach to war as a whole.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Jotari

[lenticular]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

What if we never played the Dawn Brigade at all in Part 3, and then when you finish from Pain Awakening, Part 4 starts and boom, you're back in Daein and Pelleas tells you to go fight the Laguz Alliance. You then play through all the Part 3 Dawn Brigade Chapters at once in a short segment about as long as Part 2, finishing with From Pain, Awakening on their side. I think that would also make the final act plot swerve less of a 90 degree angle by denying the resolution of it a bit. The whole bomb under the table theory.

I'm not sure how I feel about that, honestly. It's an interesting idea though, for sure. Non-linear storytelling is one of those things that can be great when it works out well but a complete trainwreck when it doesn't. Maybe if the game really plays up the mystery of how it's super weird that the Dawn Brigade are now siding with the Begnion senate. The player would probably be wondering what the hell is going on, so it would make sense for the game to lampshade that. Have their friends wonder what Jill and Zihark could be thinking. Have Brom worry about Meg. Have Ike talk with Ilyana and/or the merchants about what sort of person Micaiah is. All that sort of thing. And then in the new Part 4 we finally get the answers to the questions we were asking all throughout Part 3.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

What if we never played the Dawn Brigade at all in Part 3, and then when you finish from Pain Awakening, Part 4 starts and boom, you're back in Daein and Pelleas tells you to go fight the Laguz Alliance. You then play through all the Part 3 Dawn Brigade Chapters at once in a short segment about as long as Part 2, finishing with From Pain, Awakening on their side.

That would just make III-9 all the weirder. As it would be the only Part III chapter not played following Ike and co. Personally, I like how Part III jumps around, and would prefer it stay that way.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'd actually say 3-6 isn't that morally black and white. The Laguz are the aggressors and they have no clue what they'll actually do if they win. They're just acting out like a child pulling a tantrum. It's understandable that they're pissed since the senate are the biggest shit bags ever, but they're not accomplishing any positivity in the world by essentially going on a rampage where the only ones who suffer are the rank and file Begnions that have nothing to do with it. And they're actively putting the world at risk by inflaming Lehran's Medallion, which they're fully aware of and just don't care. That's the reason why the character of Skirmr is made to be such an idiot, he's firey and emblematic of the conflict of the whole (pun intended and proudly so).

Destabilizing the government of Begnion, and in particular, threatening the Senate's legitimacy, is an act of positivity in the world. The Senate has proven itself to be a morally bankrupt and utterly unrepresentative institution, whose behavior not only created an oppressive morass in neighboring Daein, but also invited a new war with several fierce neighbors. I know we like to say "the Laguz Alliance invaded first", and that's true... but what is killing an envoy, if not an act of war? The Senate arrogantly walked headlong into this conflict, and they deserve to pay the price.

[Jotari]

13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That would just make III-9 all the weirder. As it would be the only Part III chapter not played following Ike and co. Personally, I like how Part III jumps around, and would prefer it stay that way.

Destabilizing the government of Begnion, and in particular, threatening the Senate's legitimacy, is an act of positivity in the world. The Senate has proven itself to be a morally bankrupt and utterly unrepresentative institution, whose behavior not only created an oppressive morass in neighboring Daein, but also invited a new war with several fierce neighbors. I know we like to say "the Laguz Alliance invaded first", and that's true... but what is killing an envoy, if not an act of war? The Senate arrogantly walked headlong into this conflict, and they deserve to pay the price.

I wonder if the senate really were responsible for that envoy's death or if it was Sephiran. Because it seems colossally stupid even for them. And Sephiran, for being the supposed mastermind of the conflict, is surprisingly passive throughout the game spending most of it locked in a cell.

And to be clear, I'm not saying the Laguz are wrong either. If I were then I'd be saying it is black and white, just in the opposite direction. I'm saying the conflict is more nuanced than that and that the Laguz are basically lashing out with little clue of what they're actually trying to achieve, and that is an intentional part of the writing (that's also why I specified the first Dawn Brigade clash as later, when Sanaki joins them, they actually do have a clear goal and cause).

Edited July 28, 2023 by Jotari