Are the low exp Dawn Brigade chapters a problem that needs to be fixed?

[Aedan7479]

Based of enemy data on easy difficulty; in part 3-11, the game expects the Greil Mercenaries to be Tier 2 level 15 or higher, and in the next chapter, the game expects the Dawn Brigade to be Tier 2 level 5 or higher, so there's a ten level discrepancy, generally speaking. Honestly, that doesn't sound too bad.

Something I'm surprised hasn't come up is growth rates. I'm not very knowledgeable on the topic, but it seems all of part 1's characters have good to great growth rates, and a couple characters have niches, like Meg having great resistance for an armour knight. I've seen a decent number of people take Nolan and/or Edward into the tower and they're generally considered good units (so I guess that means most of the actual 'Dawn Brigade' doesn't have any major issues). But then Meg and Fiona suffer from different issues. Meg starts at Tier 1 level 3 when your unit are about level 10, plus she's already an armour unit with low movement. And then Fiona joins at Tier 1 level 9 and is only available for two maps in part 1.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Late on this, but

On 7/28/2023 at 1:49 PM, Jotari said:

I wonder if the senate really were responsible for that envoy's death or if it was Sephiran. Because it seems colossally stupid even for them. And Sephiran, for being the supposed mastermind of the conflict, is surprisingly passive throughout the game spending most of it locked in a cell.

Well, that's what the Narrator says. But how much can we trust that guy? We never even see his face! Of course, if Sephiran did it of his own volition, then the Narrator wouldn't be lying. As he's technically a member of the Senate.

Personally, I think it makes sense with the unmitigated hubris of the Senate. Perhaps it verges onto "mustache-twirlingly evil", but that's basically how Valtome and Lekain are portrayed, at least. Actually, looking back to the script:

Spoiler

Upon hearing this tale, the hawk king, Tibarn, is consumed with an unspeakable rage. He shares this information with the raven king, Naesala, and the beast king, Caineghis, and they form a Laguz Alliance. Together with the heron royal family, they send messengers to the leadership of Begnion, demanding an explanation from the senators. Begnion rebuffs their requests, however, denying any wrongdoing and refusing to investigate Rafiel’s claims. As if to emphasize their decision to silence the laguz inquiries, the empire goes so far as to murder an alliance messenger. This callous act of arrogant defiance pushes the alliance into declaring war upon the Begnion Empire.

It only places the murder on the "Empire", so it could be anyone. But it's probably someone in the Senate, or one of their underlings. I assume that they didn't get an audience with Sanaki at this time.

But anyway,

On 7/28/2023 at 1:49 PM, Jotari said:

I'm saying the conflict is more nuanced than that and that the Laguz are basically lashing out with little clue of what they're actually trying to achieve,

Yeah, that's fair enough. It seems to be a "war of vengeance", with the goal of punishing Begnion (and the Senate, in particular) for the Serenes Massacre. Plus the murdered envoy.

In that context, is it a "just war"? ...Eh, it's hard to say. I can see the nuance there. This is, of course, without getting into the phenomenal (and uncharacteristic) foolishness of Caineghis to appoint Skrimir to lead the Army, in the hopes that it would "build character".

On 7/27/2023 at 11:04 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

This might be an unpopular opinion, but Iong thought that part 1 of Radiant Dawn alone does "Typlcal FE Plot" better than most other FE games before it, despite (or perhaps because of) taking only half the time at most to do it.

I tend to view RD Part I as "Lyn Mode, but lengthier and actually challenging." They both have a "tight little Fire Emblem" story, front-loaded into a game that doesn't abide by the normal narrative rules. Plus, each acquaints us with an ambitious young woman who will eventually have the spotlight taken from her by a brash, blue-haired hero.

On 7/27/2023 at 4:47 PM, lenticular said:

Thinking about it, I wonder if I'd have liked it more if we got to play as the Dawn Brigade again in 3-14 (From Pain, Awakening)

Radical take here, but what if you got to play as EVERY army? Switch from controlling the Greil Mercs, to the Hawks, to the Beasts, to the Dawn Brigade? Think about it - the goal is to get 80 units killed. It doesn't matter which army they're from. This rapidly-changing perspective not only sets the stage for Part IV (where, indeed, all of the above become playable), but could also be viewed as a manifestation of the growing, spiraling chaos. Now, it's not just a matter of swapping perspective between maps, but between turns themself!

[Interdimensional Observer]

58 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Personally, I think it makes sense with the unmitigated hubris of the Senate. Perhaps it verges onto "mustache-twirlingly evil", but that's basically how Valtome and Lekain are portrayed, at least.

Ever heard of the Defenestration of Prague? The 1618 event specifically.

A few Catholic officials representing the will of their liege the Austrian Habsburg Ferdinand II, met with some Bohemian (modern Czech) Protestants in Bohemia's capital- Prague. The Protestants got angry and threw (defenestrate) three of the Catholics out a window about 70 feet/21 meters off the ground. The fall should've killed them, but somehow -a dung heap according to Protestants, the intervention of the Virgin Mary according to Catholics- all three envoys survived.

The Defenestration of Prague was the spark that lit a powder keg. When Ferdinand II's older brother finally died soon after and Ferdy 2 became Holy Roman Emperor, the Bohemian elite -in a mood made more defiant by the Defenestration- decided not to elect Ferdy king, despite the Habsburgs having been always elected King of Bohemia for almost a century at that point. The Bohemians picked a Protestant king from the Palatinate, the Habsburgs refused to accept what they saw as treason, and so began the first phase of the Thirty Years' War. The first phase, because there were four of them, during which the various other parts of the Holy Roman Empire and foreign countries like Spain, France, and Sweden, entered the conflict. Besides lasting for 30 years, the Thirty Years' War killed off about... ~33% of the Holy Roman Empire's population? Not insignificant were its effects.

And yes, the Defenestration was "stupid", in the sense that the Bohemians lost their fight for religious freedom at the Battle of White Mountain two years later. The Habsburgs forced them to convert to Catholicism, and the elected monarchy was converted to a hereditary one so such an uppity mistake would never happen again. Protestant Bohemian fears of Catholicization and a heavier Habsburg hand, probably inevitable, were hastened by their failed revolt.

TL;DR We do have a case of almost-murdered ambassadors triggering a major war in Europe.

-Mind, the Tellius event has tensions boil over from nothing (or even a relaxation of tensions given the Chapter 17 events of PoR) almost immediately. The 30YW had decades of unresolved Catholic-Protestant tensions and fears behind it that had bubbled over into conflict before.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Late on this, but

Well, that's what the Narrator says. But how much can we trust that guy? We never even see his face! Of course, if Sephiran did it of his own volition, then the Narrator wouldn't be lying. As he's technically a member of the Senate.

Personally, I think it makes sense with the unmitigated hubris of the Senate. Perhaps it verges onto "mustache-twirlingly evil", but that's basically how Valtome and Lekain are portrayed, at least. Actually, looking back to the script:

  Hide contents

Upon hearing this tale, the hawk king, Tibarn, is consumed with an unspeakable rage. He shares this information with the raven king, Naesala, and the beast king, Caineghis, and they form a Laguz Alliance. Together with the heron royal family, they send messengers to the leadership of Begnion, demanding an explanation from the senators. Begnion rebuffs their requests, however, denying any wrongdoing and refusing to investigate Rafiel’s claims. As if to emphasize their decision to silence the laguz inquiries, the empire goes so far as to murder an alliance messenger. This callous act of arrogant defiance pushes the alliance into declaring war upon the Begnion Empire.

It only places the murder on the "Empire", so it could be anyone. But it's probably someone in the Senate, or one of their underlings. I assume that they didn't get an audience with Sanaki at this time.

For the purpose of the conversation we were having it doesn't largely matter which of them did it, I just kind of prefer if it were Sephiran since he's actually a very passive actor in Radiant Dawn until the end. He does more to see his plans come into fruition in Path of Radiance even though he fails. If he didn't kill the messenger and genuinely did get locked up by the senate, and Lekain was solely responsible for the blood pact, then he kind of just got super lucky that Ashera was woken by a natural course of events he had nothing to do with.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

10 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Ever heard of the Defenestration of Prague? The 1618 event specifically.

I've heard the term before, but didn't know all that surrounded it. Fascinating.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

For the purpose of the conversation we were having it doesn't largely matter which of them did it, I just kind of prefer if it were Sephiran since he's actually a very passive actor in Radiant Dawn until the end. He does more to see his plans come into fruition in Path of Radiance even though he fails. If he didn't kill the messenger and genuinely did get locked up by the senate, and Lekain was solely responsible for the blood pact, then he kind of just got super lucky that Ashera was woken by a natural course of events he had nothing to do with.

I'd say "well, perhaps Sephiran made Lekain aware of blood pacts to begin with". Except, the narrative heavily implies that the Senate (possibly Lekain, possibly his predecessor) imposed a blood pact against a previous King of Kilvas. Lekain's wording suggests that this was in place well before the murder of Misaha, and subsequent Serenes Massacre.

...Wait. Why did Naesala and the Ravens fight for Daein in the Mad King's War? It was the Begnion Senate, not King Ashnard, who bound Kilvas with a Blood Pact. I can't imagine Lekain commanding him to do anything of the sort. And attacking Begnion troops, once the armies merge, seems like a "no-go". Are we to believe that Naesala was fighting in that war "just for the hell of it", whereas three years later, it's different because he was coerced into it?

[Interdimensional Observer]

15 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I've heard the term before, but didn't know all that surrounded it. Fascinating.

You're welcome.🙂 I tried not to get too wordy.😅

16 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

...Wait. Why did Naesala and the Ravens fight for Daein in the Mad King's War? It was the Begnion Senate, not King Ashnard, who bound Kilvas with a Blood Pact. I can't imagine Lekain commanding him to do anything of the sort. And attacking Begnion troops, once the armies merge, seems like a "no-go". Are we to believe that Naesala was fighting in that war "just for the hell of it", whereas three years later, it's different because he was coerced into it?

Did the Senate really want the war against Daein? The Senate obviously wouldn't care about losing a few common soldiers. Sanaki mind isn't able to provide full support for the conflict until Sephiran returned from his travels, only a limited number of troops. Naesala is fought before Sephiran forces the Senate into action.

-Actually, perhaps you could see Begnion support for Elincia prior to that as nothing more than, to use modern US governmental terminology an "executive action/order", limited in what it could do and lacking legislative approval. Begnion entered the Crimea-Daein war, but only the Empress-Apostle was directly at war, the Senate until later was only in it by association.

The Senate did enrich themselves (well, I assume the maltreatment included some plundering of Daein that goes unsaid. Why wouldn't vain aristocrats steal some fine art from confiscated Daein estates?) with the Daein occupation afterwards. But one could interpret that as simply making lemonade of the lemons the Apostle's decision had brought them.

As for Naesala, Mercenary Country's King does mercenary work. Taking a page from Travant's book I guess? Travant did give support to Agustria against Grannvalian occupiers, but then like three years later enter an alliance with Grannvale.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

...Wait. Why did Naesala and the Ravens fight for Daein in the Mad King's War? It was the Begnion Senate, not King Ashnard, who bound Kilvas with a Blood Pact. I can't imagine Lekain commanding him to do anything of the sort. And attacking Begnion troops, once the armies merge, seems like a "no-go". Are we to believe that Naesala was fighting in that war "just for the hell of it", whereas three years later, it's different because he was coerced into it?

Naesala does have Kilvas drop out of the war shortly after Begnion joins it. So either he was sent a warning message from the Senate, or he did it on his own aware it'd happen anyway.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

As for Naesala, Mercenary Country's King does mercenary work. Taking a page from Travant's book I guess? Travant did give support to Agustria against Grannvalian occupiers, but then like three years later enter an alliance with Grannvale.

 

10 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Naesala does have Kilvas drop out of the war shortly after Begnion joins it. So either he was sent a warning message from the Senate, or he did it on his own aware it'd happen anyway.

Hm... yeah, this model is plausible. From my end, though, when they recover the Blood Pact binding Kilvas from Lekain and destroy it, there's an implication that "this was responsible for all the bad stuff Naesala did!" But maybe that's just my own (mis?)reading of it.

Actually, digging deeper, things get even weirder. From Naesala's boss convo with Lekain:

Spoiler

Lekain: Tah ha ha... So nice to see you, King Naesala. When you can't oppose me, that is. Your blood pact means that you'll have to betray your companions... yet again.
Naesala: Not today, actually.
Lekain: What did you say?
Naesala: Sorry to break it to you, Lekain, but I have recently... been promoted, shall we say. I now take orders from over your head, Vice-Minister. From Empress Sanaki, to be exact.
Lekain: Wh-what...Whaaaat...?!
Naesala: The curse of the blood pact applies if the master's orders aren't obeyed, but by the law of Begnion, you're overruled. So, Lekain, right here, right now... I'm going to tear you apart, as I've been wanting to do for years.
Lekain: Urk!

So, the Kilvas blood pact wasn't signed by Lekain, nor by his direct ancestor, but by someone "higher up" than him. Going further, with Naesala's conversation with Sephiran:

Spoiler

Sephiran: King Naesala, it seems as if everything went well with the pact.

Naesala: Yes, for which I am thankful. The blood pact yoked Kilvas to your country's control... but we no longer suffer the curse for opposing the tyrannical edicts of your corrupt, bloated senators. Present company excluded, of course.

Sephiran: I'm quite glad to hear it.

Naesala: You shouldn't be. You're not like the other senators, but your insane agenda has turned my nation to stone! Freedom means nothing to a statue.

Sephiran: My goal was simply to save Sanaki. With your help, she is safe. The mutual benefit of your country was a happy accident, so don't feel indebted to me.

Naesala: So you won't object when I tear your lungs out here and now?

Sephiran: By all means. Be my guest.

Sephiran was aware of the pact, and while it doesn't hold him responsible for it, it also doesn't disclaim the possibility. Perhaps he orchestrated it, acting as Lehran, between the King of Kilvas and a leader of Begnion? Say, a past Prime Minister? This would mean Sephiran would inherit the "controller" aspect, as the current Prime Minister of Begnion.

As an aside, it would be totally in-character for Sephiran to compel Naesala to fight alongside Daein in the Mad King's War. Or to fight against Daein. He just wants all the nations to fight, yes? That's not to say he DID invoke it, or threaten to, just that he COULD have.

Now, it's possible that the previous signer was an Empress of Begnion - in which case, either Sanaki or Micaiah would inherit the "controller" aspect. This would fit with Naesala using Sanaki's orders to "outrank" Lekain's. But the fact that Lekain tells Pelleas

Spoiler

Lekain:
“Tah ha ha! I’ll tell you an interesting story. Long ago, a foolhardy king signed a blood pact with the empire to take back his lost kingdom. He soon broke the terms of the pact and began to disobey the empire. Presumably he didn’t understand the power of the oath he’d sworn… Would you like to hear what happened after he defied the empire’s will?”

Pelleas:
“…What?”

Lekain:
“It was quite tragic. One man died on the first day. He was only a peasant, so no one really noticed. Two more died on the second day. Three more on the third day. I think you can see where this is going. The wave of mysterious deaths spread across the kingdom like a contagion. After thirty days, the king finally realized that this was the curse of the blood pact, the price of infidelity. He apologized to the empire and pleaded with them to lift the curse. His plea was graciously accepted on the one hundredth day. By then, the king had lost half of his subordinates, as well as his lovely wife and child. That country remained under the control of the senate for a very long time.”

, specifying "the Senate", suggests that the control of the unnamed King (implicitly, a prior King of Kilvas) was held by the Senate, not the Apostle.

[Acacia Sgt]

5 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Hm... yeah, this model is plausible. From my end, though, when they recover the Blood Pact binding Kilvas from Lekain and destroy it, there's an implication that "this was responsible for all the bad stuff Naesala did!" But maybe that's just my own (mis?)reading of it.

Actually, digging deeper, things get even weirder. From Naesala's boss convo with Lekain:

So, the Kilvas blood pact wasn't signed by Lekain, nor by his direct ancestor, but by someone "higher up" than him. Going further, with Naesala's conversation with Sephiran:

Sephiran was aware of the pact, and while it doesn't hold him responsible for it, it also doesn't disclaim the possibility. Perhaps he orchestrated it, acting as Lehran, between the King of Kilvas and a leader of Begnion? Say, a past Prime Minister? This would mean Sephiran would inherit the "controller" aspect, as the current Prime Minister of Begnion.

As an aside, it would be totally in-character for Sephiran to compel Naesala to fight alongside Daein in the Mad King's War. Or to fight against Daein. He just wants all the nations to fight, yes? That's not to say he DID invoke it, or threaten to, just that he COULD have.

Now, it's possible that the previous signer was an Empress of Begnion - in which case, either Sanaki or Micaiah would inherit the "controller" aspect. This would fit with Naesala using Sanaki's orders to "outrank" Lekain's. But the fact that Lekain tells Pelleas

, specifying "the Senate", suggests that the control of the unnamed King (implicitly, a prior King of Kilvas) was held by the Senate, not the Apostle.

We'd have to check if it wasn't mistranslated or if the Extended Script says otherwise, but I think Lekain is implying more how by not revealing the pact's existence to the current Empress, then they can effectively use the pact however they want. That is part of the reason why they held Sanaki under house arrest, so she could not meddle (if unknowlingly). Since the moment she was broken free, she quickly got Naesala out of their control.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

We'd have to check if it wasn't mistranslated or if the Extended Script says otherwise, but I think Lekain is implying more how by not revealing the pact's existence to the current Empress, then they can effectively use the pact however they want. That is part of the reason why they held Sanaki under house arrest, so she could not meddle (if unknowlingly). Since the moment she was broken free, she quickly got Naesala out of their control.

Actually, going by the extended script:

Spoiler

Micaiah:
“King Pelleas! This is it!”

Pelleas:
“The blood pact!”

Sothe:
“I pried this from Lekain’s dead fingers. But there’s two of them… Isn’t this one Daein’s?”

Pelleas:
“This is it… But the other one…”

Naesala:
“Oh! That one is mine!”

Sothe:
“King Naesala.”

Pelleas:
“…Kilvas as well?”

Naesala:
“Yeah, that’s right. With this… You’re finally free. Congratulations.”

Pelleas:
“What? Please tell me… how can I revoke the blood pact?”

Naesala:
“You can do what you want with it… Burn it, rip it, whatever takes your fancy. Since Lekain died once, the proof of the pact had already weakened right? Once the blood pact is destroyed, the markings should disappear at the same time.”

Pelleas:
“Thank you, I am eternally in your debt.”

Sothe:
“What are you going to do from now on?”

Naesala:
“Eh?”

Sothe:
“From what you just said, your proof is still…”

Naesala:
“Oh, my situation is a little different. Lekain’s death won’t have any effect. Still, so long as I possess the blood pact… I’m sure one day we’ll be saved.”

Sothe:
“Huh?”

Naesala:
“Anyway, the job is only halfway done. The goddess is still ahead.”

So, Naesala believes that Lekain's death won't terminate the Blood Pact. This indicates that Begnion's signatory wasn't Lekain, and it wasn't Lekain's predecessor (either as "Duke Gaddos", or as "Vice-Minister"). My suspicion - going with the previous "outranks" comment, Lekain's "Senate" comment, and Naesala's conversation with Sephiran - is that the signatory was a previous Prime Minister of Begnion. Ergo, by killing the current Prime Minister, and then destroying the document, Kilvas would be freed of the Pact. In which case, "one day" comes sooner than later.

[Acacia Sgt]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So, Naesala believes that Lekain's death won't terminate the Blood Pact. This indicates that Begnion's signatory wasn't Lekain, and it wasn't Lekain's predecessor (either as "Duke Gaddos", or as "Vice-Minister"). My suspicion - going with the previous "outranks" comment, Lekain's "Senate" comment, and Naesala's conversation with Sephiran - is that the signatory was a previous Prime Minister of Begnion. Ergo, by killing the current Prime Minister, and then destroying the document, Kilvas would be freed of the Pact. In which case, "one day" comes sooner than later.

Still, it's not about who signed it, but what the contract says. If the contract stipulates Kilvas, or at least the Raven King, must do what Begnion says, then that makes "Begnion" the signatory. What Naesala likely means is that so long Begnion or his position exists, then the Pact is still valid. Of course, the "one day" was actually the return of the bird tribes to Serenes. Since it means the title of King of Kilvas stopped existing. Thus, the contract becoming void.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

16 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Still, it's not about who signed it, but what the contract says. If the contract stipulates Kilvas, or at least the Raven King, must do what Begnion says, then that makes "Begnion" the signatory. What Naesala likely means is that so long Begnion or his position exists, then the Pact is still valid. Of course, the "one day" was actually the return of the bird tribes to Serenes. Since it means the title of King of Kilvas stopped existing. Thus, the contract becoming void.

I don't believe that's accurate. A country cannot literally be a signatory; rather, a person with authority over a country is a signatory. A blood pact is broken by the destruction of the document, and the death of at least one of the parties signatory to it. In the case of the document's continued existence beyond the original signatory's lifespans, the obligations of the pact are "passed on" to whoever next occupies the same position.

So, let's say Lekain's grandfather, and Naesala's father, signed a blood pact. Let's even suppose that "Kilvas must obey Begnion" is a term of the pact. Per the rules, as we know them, assuming the continued existence of the document, the "heirs" to the Blood Pact would be Naesala and Lekain. Per the pre-established rules of Blood Pacts, the destruction of the document, and the death of Lekain (or Naesala), would result in the termination of the Pact. The text of the Pact would be immaterial, in the same way that the printed words "you will not light me on fire" do little to save a sheet of paper from being consumed in flames.

In other words, if we take it for granted that Naesala is correct - that, even with Lekain's death, destroying the document alone will not free him of the Blood Pact - then the only logical conclusion is that Lekain's death is immaterial to the execution if the Pact. Ergo, neither Lekain, nor his direct predecessors, were signatory to the Kilvas Blood Pact.

Incidentally, in the international cut, this detail is totally omitted:

Spoiler

Sothe:
“Hey! Look, there’s another pact here. Lekain was carrying two of them. What’s going on?”

Naesala:
“Oh! That one is mine!”

Sothe:
“…Kilvas as well?”

Naesala:
“It makes sense that he would carry them all with him. All the betrayal, all the lies… Death’s too good for you, Lekain. But it’s over now. Kilvas and Daein are finally free. But if we can’t save our petrified countrymen, it’s a hollow freedom.”

Perhaps this change was a mistake, or perhaps it was made to evade the unexplained ("wait, why would Naesala's blood pact work differently?"), and give a more satisfying resolution. In any case, if we're taking the International script as canon, then I'm almost certainly wrong. My argument applies to the "extended canon".

[Acacia Sgt]

45 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't believe that's accurate. A country cannot literally be a signatory; rather, a person with authority over a country is a signatory. A blood pact is broken by the destruction of the document, and the death of at least one of the parties signatory to it. In the case of the document's continued existence beyond the original signatory's lifespans, the obligations of the pact are "passed on" to whoever next occupies the same position.

I didn't meant it literally, hence it being in quotation marks... and that was my point. The signatory on Begnion's side is ultimately irrelevant, because if the wording of the contract is being fulfilled, then there's little the actual signatory can do to enact the penalty clause. Lekain was likely aware of that loophole, hence why he worded the second Blood Pact to patch that hole. Which made it easier to null it as it was only tied to him.

Heck, the blood pact Ashnard had the King of Daein sign, the other signatory was an unrelated old man, not Ashnard himself.

The extended script has also in more detail the wording of the Daein pact, but it's on pegasusknight.com unstranslated, not on Serenes yet.

Also, I should point out that you can have documents signed on country-basis. That's how you can ensure they are still effect after the deaths of the signatories. Can you imagine if you had to renew stuff like the European Union or NATO if countries weren't signatories? The Kilvas Blood Pact could very much work like that.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Original Alear]

Reg the original topic...I'm not sure anyone said it and I read most of the topic I think, so I will just say, if anything

The problem isn't with dawn brigade chapters being too hard or the units being too weak, but instead part 3 Greil Mercenary chapters are too easy. I mean, I know it's great to have the "oh shit the GM are here" moment in 3-13, but in general most of the part three chapters are IMO the weakest part of the game. Maybe Haar should have gone to DB since that's where Jill is (and get rid of recruting Jill to GM altogether).

Edited September 26, 2023 by Original Alear

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Original Alear said:

Reg the original topic...I'm not sure anyone said it and I read most of the topic I think, so I will just say, if anything

The problem isn't with dawn brigade chapters being too hard or the units being too weak, but instead part 3 Greil Mercenary chapters are too easy. I mean, I know it's great to have the "oh shit the GM are here" moment in 3-13, but in general most of the part three chapters are IMO the weakest part of the game. Maybe Haar should have gone to DB since that's where Jill is (and get rid of recruting Jill to GM altogether).

Dawn Brigade Haar would indeed make a lot of sense. He's a subject of Daein after all, he really has just as much reason to fight for his adopted county as Jill. But, I guess, they didn't want to have both their wyvern knight units in the same army and when it comes to the two Haar has that older more measured temperament which makes Ike a bit more sensical for him and Jill as the lower tier in gameplay which makes her a part 1 recruitment more natural. Still Haar could have been a part 3 recruit for Daein. He could even keep his whole part 2 stuff and then just return to Daein (you could even use it as an opportunity to bring over some part 2 items to Micaiah's inventory). As someone mentioned earlier a lack of new recruits in part 3 for Dawn Brigade is a bit of an issue.

[Acacia Sgt]

I feel Haar would stay mostly for Jill, not so much Daein itself. So if she leaves, he'd likely follow. Not to mention, it wouldn't be in his character to keep siding with Daein just for being his second home if Daein was making bad steps. That's why he followed Shiharam out of Begnion to begin with, and why it's he who convinces Jill to switch sides, not the other way around. As it is, I feel you'd need to change Daein's nature of being in the war to justify having more characters in it, specially returning characters from PoR. I mean, there's a reason Zihark can defect as early as 3-6...

Edited September 27, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I feel Haar would stay mostly for Jill, not so much Daein itself. So if she leaves, he'd likely follow. Not to mention, it wouldn't be in his character to keep siding with Daein just for being his second home if Daein was making bad steps. That's why he followed Shiharam out of Begnion to begin with, and why it's he who convinces Jill to switch sides, not the other way around. As it is, I feel you'd need to change Daein's nature of being in the war to justify having more characters in it, specially returning characters from PoR. I mean, there's a reason Zihark can defect as early as 3-6...

That what I meant with Haar's older more measured temperament. Though I guess I could have been more clear. That being said, I don't think Haar fighting for Daein Part 3 is impossible because Jill is there (and let's face it, Jill's fighting for Daein part 3 is also a tad contrived factoring in her own development in Path of Radiance too) 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

12 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I didn't meant it literally, hence it being in quotation marks... and that was my point. The signatory on Begnion's side is ultimately irrelevant, because if the wording of the contract is being fulfilled, then there's little the actual signatory can do to enact the penalty clause. Lekain was likely aware of that loophole, hence why he worded the second Blood Pact to patch that hole. Which made it easier to null it as it was only tied to him.

Maybe. There's still a ton that we don't know about blood pacts. We might have to leave this as "agree to disagree", especially, as it's wandered dramatically from the original topic.

12 hours ago, Original Alear said:

The problem isn't with dawn brigade chapters being too hard or the units being too weak, but instead part 3 Greil Mercenary chapters are too easy. I mean, I know it's great to have the "oh shit the GM are here" moment in 3-13, but in general most of the part three chapters are IMO the weakest part of the game. Maybe Haar should have gone to DB since that's where Jill is (and get rid of recruting Jill to GM altogether).

Well, we could just make the Greil Mercenaries weaker. Shave a couple levels off here and there. It would suck not having a flier for most of Part III.

That said, Haar is... interesting. He doesn't have all that much reason to fight with the Greil Mercenaries. Marcia practically has to beg him to help Princess Elincia. Then in Part III, he's not even helping the Crimeans anymore. Sure, he probably likes the idea of busting up some Begnion troops, but I don't recall him taking any stance toward the Laguz, or Gallia.

Would it make sense for him to fight for Daein? Eh, not really either. He has no affection for Pelleas or Micaiah, and probably wouldn't be keen on doing the Senate's bidding. If there'd be any cause for him to join, it'd be because Jill is already there.

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

As someone mentioned earlier a lack of new recruits in part 3 for Dawn Brigade is a bit of an issue.

We definitely should have some of those, yes. But I'd like to see some characters who actually have a reason to fight in their war. Give us an actual racist, who's excited at the prospect of his own "stuffed laguz". Someone who actually reflects the unresolved problems of Daein, and makes the moral lines of the conflict all the clearer.

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Well, we could just make the Greil Mercenaries weaker. Shave a couple levels off here and there. It would suck not having a flier for most of Part III.

Well, Marcia could join the Mercs. Makes about as much sense as Haar (or her just joining Crimea when her Path of Radiance ending has her going back to Begnion). Alternatively, just invent a new character. I used to think Radiant Dawn's character roster was too big and no more characters should be added to it, but this thread kind of opened my eyes to how not true that is with Dawn Brigade being full deployment in Part 3.

[Original Alear]

Would it make sense for him to fight for Daein? Eh, not really either. He has no affection for Pelleas or Micaiah, and probably wouldn't be keen on doing the Senate's bidding. If there'd be any cause for him to join, it'd be because Jill is already there.

Considering how rare paired endings are in RD, is it not perhaps likely that Jill is a significant reason for Haar to join Daien? The main thing is that it does probably make more sense for Jill to join Haar than the other way around...not to talk too much in circles...

[Eden Agleam]

On 7/25/2023 at 10:14 PM, Jotari said:

Dawn Brigade is famous for two things. Not having proper characterization and having huge difficulty spike in Part 3 chapters due to a dearth of exp. Dawn Brigade actually has more chapters than Greil Mercs, the issue is that the Greil Mercs all start promoted while the Dawn Brigade needs to wade through the trainee tier of the faux three class system, putting them significantly behind.

But is this a bad thing? Isn't it gameplay story integration? Micaiah's group are less experienced and are narratively outmatched by Ike. Isn't it good that this is reflected in gameplay? And, I don't know about you, but the Dawn Brigade chapters are some of the most memorable in the game, while the early part 3 chapters, the easiest ones, are some of the least memorable. People seem to treat this imbalance as an issue, but maybe it's making both a better story and a more fun gameplay experience.

I think that the the Dawn Brigade beginning at lower strength than the Greil Mercenaries is a great way to emphasize the struggle the Daein liberation movement is going through. I think what may benefit transitioning the Dawn Brigade into the unified Armies of Parts 3/4 is increasing the base level and stats of the Dawn Brigade members. Meg starting at level 3 is just a non-starter in tryin to create a usable unit. Fiona coming in at level 8 (9?) when most units are in the mid teens is a slap in the face. Additionally, I think having more Master Seals available in Part 1 would help set up the Dawn Brigade for Part 3. I don't think there is much necessary change for Dawn Brigade chapters in part 3. Maybe adding some more experience potential may help their curve, but I don't know if it's necessary.