Optimal Team for Maniac Mode Ironman

[Uscari]

So I have done a few Ironman Maniac Mode runs (2 successfully, many failures) and I have come to the conclusion that this is the best team for consistent victory.

The first category are the units I would focus training on, give stat boosters/skills to, and forge weapons for. The units that will perform the best in the late game and synergize well with one another.

The second category are units that are helpful in some chapters, but either lose their usefulness later on or otherwise do not need to be fielded every chapter.

I've already done a tier list, but this team isn't just best on how good a unit is generally, but how well they synergize with the rest of the team, and what niche they bring to the table to address various challenges you encounter throughout the game.

Let me know your thoughts, who would you use?

 

Main Team (Fielded every map they are available)

1. Ike (Required to be fielded, eventually 1-rounds paladins after promotion, becomes strongest unit by the endgame however.)

2. Oscar (Gives Ike +20 avoid, high bulk for join time, supports Kieran, uses lances/axes, super canto unit)

3. Boyd (1-rounds Wyverns and Armored Knights at 1-range during enemy phase)

4. Soren (Solid wind mage, becomes excellent Staff bot, gives Ike +22 avoid)

5. Brom (Brick wall, helps create defensive formations, fast enough not to get doubled by most enemies, gives Boyd +3 attack and +1 defense)

6. Kieran (Supports with Oscar, can 1-round Wyvern Lords on player phase with bows, super canto unit)

7. Jill (Best Flyer, has the bulk and damage output to clear areas independently)

8. Makalov (Statistically the strongest paladin in the game when trained, will do most of the work like Oscar/Kieran/Jill)

9. Tormod (Siege tome king, counters enemy siege tomes and dragons, high move, also good staff bot)

10. Reyson (Dancer, healer, pack mule, grants Tormod +3 AT and +15 Accuracy, capable at tanking siege tomes with high res/avoid)

 

Utility/Temporary Units (Fielded sometimes)

1. Titania (Alleviates pressure in the early game, critical for securing loot and bonus experience through Ch. 13)

2. Rhys (Your only healer until Ch. 9)

3. Gatrie (Brick Wall in early chapters)

4. Shinon (Sets up kills for weaker units to feed them xp without wasting weapon uses)

5. Lethe (Mini-Titania, contributes through Ch. 13)

6. Mordecai (Smite Bot and pack mule)

7. Volke (Thief, useful for opening chests and stealing siege tomes/physic staves)

8. Sothe (Backup Thief if Volke dies, but realistically will only exist to open doors/chests)

9. Muarim (Can replace Mordecai as Smite Bot/Pack Mule)

10. Tanith (Reinforcements, extra Flyer, 1-rounds some Wyverns w/ Sonic Sword)

[ping]

1. Ike - you can't not use him. Otherwise, I don't think he'd be here, since he's pretty mediocre until he gets Ragnell.
2. Oscar - mounted character with solid stats once his growths kick in. Fast +avo support with Ike; Tanith and Kieran are also very useful support options.
3. Soren or Ilyana - yes, Soren ends up stronger, but Ilyana requires less work to get going. For what it's worth, she also has a Spd advantage when using siege tomes. Soren's higher Mag and Skl make him more reliable with Sleep/Silence, though. They both have one consistently useful support partner (Ike and Mordecai, respectively).
4. Marcia - Flyer with excellent offensive stats. Looking at average stats, it's worth noting that Oscar and Kieran do not cap their Spd at 21/20, which means that Marcia will go from a +3-4 Spd advantage at lv. 21/1 to still roughly +2 at 21/20 despite hitting her Spd cap. Yes, her lower Str and inability to pick axes will hold her back eventually, but her combat will never be bad. Has Tanith and Kieran as very useful support options.
5. Mordecai - Smite good, always. Can support Ilyana for accuracy, +1 Atk, and +3 Def, for what it's worth. Can be replaced by Muarim once you get the Smite scroll, if you want a smiter with OK combat abilities.
6. Kieran - mounted character with solid stats. Useful supports with Oscar and Marcia.
7. Jill - Best lategame flyer. Not the greatest support partners, unfortunately - Lethe is decent short-term, Mist can be a option.
8. Reyson - duh.
9. Tanith - zero-investment character with good enough stats. Probably the best user other than Mist  of the magic swords and the flame lance. All three of her supports are with other characters in this list.

You tend to have 11-13 deployment slots (including Ike), so that leaves two spots for permanent team members, or maybe you'll use four additional characters in a bit of a rotation. Options, where I don't think there's clear winners between them:

1. Rhys or Mist. You'll use Rhys as your first healer, so you might just keep him around as a second staff user. Mist is at a significant level disadvantage when she joins, but unlike Rhys, she retains some advantages over Soren/Ilyana after they gain access to advanced staves. You'd have to ditch the "optimal" part if you want her to have any significant damage potential, though, while Rhys can at least hit pretty hard even though he'll basically never double.
   • If you keep using Rhys, Calill can replace Soren/Ilyana as your siege tome user. Or she can be your second siege tome user, of course. She doesn't need any investment, which is a big advantage over the growth mages.
2. Astrid and/or Makalov. Astrid's average stats are a bit worse than other paladins', but Paragon means that she is fairly cheap to bring to a competent level, and it also means that she can pull ahead of the level curve afterwards. Being the only option to use the Brave Bow without grinding the weapon rank (and/or spending Arms Scrolls) is nice, too. Makalov has better averages than any other paladin, but he comes underleveled without Paragon to help him out. Unfortunately, they're both each other's best support option by a good margin.
3. Boyd struggles with not having a horse and with a somewhat shaky Def stat, but he does pack a bigger punch than anybody else. If you're using Mist, their support adds another +3 Atk at (A). If you keep using Titania, their support will mostly provide accuracy, but also +1 Atk/Def at (B).
4. Speaking of, Titania doesn't have particularly good endgame stats, but she's a paladin that doesn't require any investment - although she does appreciate a Str boost or two. In addition to Boyd, she can also support Ike, Rhys and Mist, so it's possible that she'll add some value through this.
5. Volke has has awful combat, but thief utility is thief utility. Giving him some XP makes it easier for him to (a) do something when he's not thieving, (b) hit Spd benchmarks, and (c) not die, so it might be worth to bring him even when he's not really needed, just so he can pick up some XP. His only support partner, Bastian, is unfortunately pretty far from an "optimal" choice.

And of course, there's the temporary characters, that are good for a while before they probably get benched. Titania if you don't want to keep her around; Lethe; Stefan; Shinon and Gatrie. I'm sure I'm missing some.

[samthedigital]

59 minutes ago, gnip said:

Flyer with excellent offensive stats. Looking at average stats, it's worth noting that Oscar and Kieran do not cap their Spd at 21/20, which means that Marcia will go from a +3-4 Spd advantage at lv. 21/1 to still roughly +2 at 21/20 despite hitting her Spd cap.

Are we not including Knight Ward?

[ping]

39 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Are we not including Knight Ward?

We should, but I'm daft That definitely reduces Marcia's lead by a fuzzy margin. I'm not sure how many KW levels Oscar and Kieran would be expected in an average playthough, since you don't always just have the actions available to trade it around mid-chapter. I still maintain that Marcia's offensive stats are very good. (Very slightly) Better Str than Oscar until 21/11!

[Uscari]

3 hours ago, gnip said:

We should, but I'm daft That definitely reduces Marcia's lead by a fuzzy margin. I'm not sure how many KW levels Oscar and Kieran would be expected in an average playthough, since you don't always just have the actions available to trade it around mid-chapter. I still maintain that Marcia's offensive stats are very good. (Very slightly) Better Str than Oscar until 21/11!

Even with KW levels, Marcia does have a commanding speed lead throughout the mid-game, and will double all the enemies the rest of the team can't double. She's genuinely a good choice for your team. But as we're saying, the Paladins can all get to 27 speed by the end with KW levels, so Marcia really falls off in the endgame.

The most attractive part of Marcia for me however is her very high resistance for a physical combat unit. That is something that none of the paladins other than Titania (jagen, falls off) or Astrid (doesn't fly) can compete with.

 

5 hours ago, gnip said:

1. Mordecai - Smite good, always. Can support Ilyana for accuracy, +1 Atk, and +3 Def, for what it's worth. Can be replaced by Muarim once you get the Smite scroll, if you want a smiter with OK combat abilities.

I actually did use Mordecai on my 1st successful maniac mode ironman as a main unit, because his supports with Illyana and Mist gave +5 defense, making him capable of outlasting the endless waves on Clash. My rational for using Mordecai was that laguz infinite use weaponry would be needed to clear that map due to the sheer volume of enemies.

It was a fixed mode run and I gave Illyana a band increasing speed growth and 2 speedwings, she ended up with 26 speed by the end of the game and was able to double with siege tomes. Shade also came in handy when she was nearby Mordecai and Gatrie for the +5 defense, as most enemies didn't try to hit her and she could stay near them.

I still wouldn't invest 2 speedwings for that though in an optimal run, and Mordecai being locked to 1-range and lack of canto means I can't justify calling him optimal as a main team member.

[ping]

8 hours ago, Uscari said:

I still wouldn't invest 2 speedwings for that though in an optimal run, and Mordecai being locked to 1-range and lack of canto means I can't justify calling him optimal as a main team member.

Oh, I'm not calling him "optimal" for his combat ability at all. I think he's "optimal" because the ability to Smite anybody is just consistently very useful, and it's something that's exclusive to Mordecai (and Muarim); specifically the part where they can give even Jill that extra 2 points of movement. It's great when somebody needs those extra tiles right at the start of the map (like Jill in Clash! in my run, for example), it's great when Reyson isn't quite close enough to the perfect Galdr spot for the turn because you didn't have the actions (or awareness) to rescue/drop him forward the previous turn, it's great when a non-mounted unit falls behind a bit, but can still, like, reach an enemy with those two additional tiles of movement. I genuinely found that more useful than fielding my, like 9th-best combat unit almost all of the time, and I think one could argue that Mordecai could've been fielded over the likes of Boyd or Rhys in the few chapters where I did keep him on the bench.

[Uscari]

17 hours ago, gnip said:

Oh, I'm not calling him "optimal" for his combat ability at all. I think he's "optimal" because the ability to Smite anybody is just consistently very useful, and it's something that's exclusive to Mordecai (and Muarim); specifically the part where they can give even Jill that extra 2 points of movement. It's great when somebody needs those extra tiles right at the start of the map (like Jill in Clash! in my run, for example), it's great when Reyson isn't quite close enough to the perfect Galdr spot for the turn because you didn't have the actions (or awareness) to rescue/drop him forward the previous turn, it's great when a non-mounted unit falls behind a bit, but can still, like, reach an enemy with those two additional tiles of movement. I genuinely found that more useful than fielding my, like 9th-best combat unit almost all of the time, and I think one could argue that Mordecai could've been fielded over the likes of Boyd or Rhys in the few chapters where I did keep him on the bench.

Yeah I like Smite but I don't think having smite available all the time is worth trading even my 9th combat unit. Keep in mind every member of the main team is going to be great, so even the 9th best unit is pretty close to the 1st best. Of course, my playstyle also revolves around being passive and outlasting reinforcements rather than clearing quickly, so I don't have as much use for Smite.

On 8/20/2023 at 11:13 AM, gnip said:

1. Ike - you can't not use him. Otherwise, I don't think he'd be here, since he's pretty mediocre until he gets Ragnell.

In the context of an Ironman, Ike is worth training even if you weren't required to field him. His absolutely insane avoid with his supports + resolve + ragnell mean that he totally carries the last 2 maps. I do agree however that for most of the run, he is a mid-tier unit, particularly in the mid-game, before he promotes.

On 8/20/2023 at 11:13 AM, gnip said:

1. Rhys or Mist. You'll use Rhys as your first healer, so you might just keep him around as a second staff user. Mist is at a significant level disadvantage when she joins, but unlike Rhys, she retains some advantages over Soren/Ilyana after they gain access to advanced staves. You'd have to ditch the "optimal" part if you want her to have any significant damage potential, though, while Rhys can at least hit pretty hard even though he'll basically never double.

I would say Rhys is probably better than Mist, at least in Maniac Mode. I think Mist is very useful once trained, as the canto definitely improves her survivability. Rhys however has a significant level and base magic advantage, which takes Mist half the game to overcome. Also, the sheer volume of physic staves means that Rhys doesn't need canto, and can heal at range to decent effect. It's also worth noting that his combat abilities are better than Mist, being able to actually contribute with light magic and the eventual light siege tome he gets.

I've actually contemplated just giving Rhys a master seal, not training him fully, just so he can use that siege tome you get on Ch. 25 to finish off enemies that Tormod, Illyana, or Calil couldn't kill in 2 shots.

[samthedigital]

On 8/18/2023 at 5:20 PM, Uscari said:

So I have done a few Ironman Maniac Mode runs (2 successfully, many failures) and I have come to the conclusion that this is the best team for consistent victory.

13 hours ago, Uscari said:

Of course, my playstyle also revolves around being passive and outlasting reinforcements rather than clearing quickly, so I don't have as much use for Smite.

I'm a little weary of using the word best because the criteria is going to be somewhat subjective. I would lean towards the best team being the one that completes it fastest with 100% reliability personally, but that requires a lot of work and planning that I'm not sure will be put into this game. There's hope though; some other FE games have seen this kind of treatment.

On 8/20/2023 at 11:13 AM, gnip said:

Astrid and/or Makalov. Astrid's average stats are a bit worse than other paladins', but Paragon means that she is fairly cheap to bring to a competent level, and it also means that she can pull ahead of the level curve afterwards.

I don't have that much experience with MM (having only played through it once a long time ago), but on HM at least Paragon gives her an edge in levels starting around the serenes section of the game until the other paladins catch up again. She gets a lot of help with bonus exp though, and that's not really feasible on MM, so I'm not sure how it would play out there.

On 8/20/2023 at 11:13 AM, gnip said:

Ike - you can't not use him. Otherwise, I don't think he'd be here, since he's pretty mediocre until he gets Ragnell.

I also want to comment the fact that Ike is in a weird spot because I think that he'd be a lot worse without the main character privilege. The earth support helps, but otherwise he's a footlocked unit without a good 1-2 range option in a game dominated by those two things. He gets bailed out by being around every single chapter and having a few chapters where he's amazing. Of course, you know this, I just think that it's fun to point out.

[ping]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

I don't have that much experience with MM (having only played through it once a long time ago), but on HM at least Paragon gives her an edge in levels starting around the serenes section of the game until the other paladins catch up again. She gets a lot of help with bonus exp though, and that's not really feasible on MM, so I'm not sure how it would play out there.

For what it's worth, I spent all my BEXP on Jill before Astrid's joining map, and still was able to find kills for her: Enough to reach Lv. 3 after Ch. 13 and Lv. 7 after Ch. 14. Enemies don't have particularly great Def on those maps, so it wasn't hard to set up kills for her while still getting full BEXP in ch. 14, although you'd need a forged bow with +hit to do so reliably. Her "big" BEXP dumps were just from Lv. 7 to Lv. 10 before Ch. 16, and then from Lv. 12 to Lv. 15 before Ch. 17, after which she more or less caught up with everybody else. A bit more than 250 BEXP in total, which I think is fairly modest. Marcia got fed 514 BEXP to reach Lv. 12 immediately, Jill 597 BEXP for Lv. 14.

No doubt that she'd appreciate a bigger piece of the BEXP cake, though, but, well, Jill joins just at the wrong time, from Astrid's perspective, especially since you don't get any BEXP for her own joining map (except for 25 BEXP for any unused deployment slot. Wow!).

[SnowFire]

I think using Tormod is fun, but I'm a bit skeptical of him being listed as "the best" in Ironman.   He's someone who is going to require special care and feeding for a very long time, and is fairly vulnerable to Ironman "whoops I guess that bow knight came out of the fog and shot my unit" deaths for the chapters after he joins.  He's basically Soren with +1 Move once caught up, but in exchange for being massively underlevel for many chapters vs. Soren.  And yes, you can fix this with bonus XP investment, but bonus XP isn't quite as plentiful on Maniac as on Hard, and that bonus XP could have gone toward making other units get snowballing even harder.

I suppose that in fairness, you're already suggesting running Soren, so it'd really be vs. Rhys / Mist / Ilyana / Calill that the comparison would be with...  I dunno.  I am a fan of redundant staffers myself, but I feel like Tormod's drawback is pretty notable here.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm gonna be frank- I am *very* skeptical of this supposedly being the best team. Brom is not that good, and Tormod is a VERY high investment unit... whose payoff fails to justify the investment.

On 8/21/2023 at 7:19 PM, Uscari said:

I would say Rhys is probably better than Mist, at least in Maniac Mode. I think Mist is very useful once trained, as the canto definitely improves her survivability. Rhys however has a significant level and base magic advantage, which takes Mist half the game to overcome. Also, the sheer volume of physic staves means that Rhys doesn't need canto, and can heal at range to decent effect. It's also worth noting that his combat abilities are better than Mist, being able to actually contribute with light magic and the eventual light siege tome he gets.

I've actually contemplated just giving Rhys a master seal, not training him fully, just so he can use that siege tome you get on Ch. 25 to finish off enemies that Tormod, Illyana, or Calil couldn't kill in 2 shots.

Rhys is a perfectly serviceable healer, yes. However, his offense is hampered by light magic being an absolute joke. Light magic is heavy (ironic ain't it?) and weak to boot. Raising him just for the sake of the ONE Purge you get lafegame is skewed priorities. 

[Uscari]

14 hours ago, SnowFire said:

I think using Tormod is fun, but I'm a bit skeptical of him being listed as "the best" in Ironman.   He's someone who is going to require special care and feeding for a very long time, and is fairly vulnerable to Ironman "whoops I guess that bow knight came out of the fog and shot my unit" deaths for the chapters after he joins.  He's basically Soren with +1 Move once caught up, but in exchange for being massively underlevel for many chapters vs. Soren.  And yes, you can fix this with bonus XP investment, but bonus XP isn't quite as plentiful on Maniac as on Hard, and that bonus XP could have gone toward making other units get snowballing even harder.

I suppose that in fairness, you're already suggesting running Soren, so it'd really be vs. Rhys / Mist / Ilyana / Calill that the comparison would be with...  I dunno.  I am a fan of redundant staffers myself, but I feel like Tormod's drawback is pretty notable here.

The mid-game is the easiest part of Maniac Mode, and it's a good time to train a unit like Tormod. Chapter 16, 17, and 18 don't have a high volume of mobile units going after your team that you can't easily block off with stronger units. Even though he is under leveled, his bases for his join level are pretty good. He does enough damage that you don't even really need a forge to train him, and his high move makes it easy to keep him out of harms way. 

The end game is the much harder part of this difficulty, and much more likely the place where your run will fall apart. You need a unit with high growth potential like Tormod to even the playing field and deal with the enemies you don't want going after your team on enemy phase. His double fire support with Reyson, high attack speed with and without siege tomes, his high move, and his ability to use staves makes him one of the strongest units in the game when trained.

Building units for the end game is the most consistent way to beat MM in an ironman.

I will admit that Calil is a strong competitor against Tormod for having near equal combat capability for far less investment, but I think Tormod's supports, movement, and ability to use staves outweighs that. I am sympathetic to the argument that Calil's higher level and weapon ranks allows more experience to go to the rest of your team, but ultimately I think Tormod is worth syphoning some experience from the rest of the team.

47 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'm gonna be frank- I am *very* skeptical of this supposedly being the best team. Brom is not that good, and Tormod is a VERY high investment unit... whose payoff fails to justify the investment.

Rhys is a perfectly serviceable healer, yes. However, his offense is hampered by light magic being an absolute joke. Light magic is heavy (ironic ain't it?) and weak to boot. Raising him just for the sake of the ONE Purge you get lafegame is skewed priorities. 

Tormod is a high investment, but the payoff absolutely justifies it. He pretty much becomes your most important unit next to Ike in the last few chapters. Even Oscar is worth sacrificing over Tormod by the time you bring him to his full potential.

Brom is the best armor knight, he has 2 more res and speed at base than Gatrie, he has a useful water-fire support with Boyd, and he is the only armor knight that on average can cap his speed without needing a speedwing. For a reliable clear of Maniac Mode, you want to have an armored knight that you can throw into a choke point or put provoke on so that they can brunt most of the damage on enemy phase, and alleviate the pressure from your more vulnerable units. Your Paladins with Sol can do what Brom does, but it's a gamble on whether Sol procs/they dodge, whereas Brom is much more consistently going to survive enemy phase in the toughest maps of the game.

I'm not advocating raising Rhys as part of the main team. I'm advocating using him until you reach level 10 (realistically you'll do this anyways), give him the Master Seal you get on Ch. 22 (by that point it's worth trading the 5000g), and let him cook. You don't need to train him fully, just get him to A rank staves and boom now you have AoE healing for the last map. You also get the purge tome to finish off units that Tormod couldn't kill in 2 siege hits. Even though light magic is weak, Rhy's base magic and magic growths are strong, so he hits like a struck the whole time. It doesn't matter that it weighs him down, because you'll only use it to chip on player phase. Rhys is very useful for relatively low investment.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Uscari said:

Tormod is a high investment, but the payoff absolutely justifies it. He pretty much becomes your most important unit next to Ike in the last few chapters. Even Oscar is worth sacrificing over Tormod by the time you bring him to his full potential.

You're literally the only one who believes that. Honestly, coming underleveled is enough to make Tormod a hard sell in an iromman, let alone in Maniac mode, and especially in a run that's both. He comes at level 7 before chapter 17, which is a mega chapter, and one where I want my units promoting. Now, bexp can help with that... but not only is bexp not as plentiful, I could get better use out of it by boosting my powerhouses. 

4 hours ago, Uscari said:

Building units for the end game is the most consistent way to beat MM in an ironman.

Talk about skewed priorities... it doesn't mean anything if your run dies before then, now does it???

4 hours ago, Uscari said:

Brom is the best armor knight, he has 2 more res and speed at base than Gatrie, he has a useful water-fire support with Boyd, and he is the only armor knight that on average can cap his speed without needing a speedwing. For a reliable clear of Maniac Mode, you want to have an armored knight that you can throw into a choke point or put provoke on so that they can brunt most of the damage on enemy phase, and alleviate the pressure from your more vulnerable units. Your Paladins with Sol can do what Brom does, but it's a gamble on whether Sol procs/they dodge, whereas Brom is much more consistently going to survive enemy phase in the toughest maps of the game.

That's tough for me to buy when he prolly won't be leveling with the Knight Ward Every. SINGLE. TIME. Also, I think you are overrating just how necessary an armored knight is.

4 hours ago, Uscari said:

I'm not advocating raising Rhys as part of the main team. I'm advocating using him until you reach level 10 (realistically you'll do this anyways), give him the Master Seal you get on Ch. 22 (by that point it's worth trading the 5000g), and let him cook. You don't need to train him fully, just get him to A rank staves and boom now you have AoE healing for the last map. You also get the purge tome to finish off units that Tormod couldn't kill in 2 siege hits. Even though light magic is weak, Rhy's base magic and magic growths are strong, so he hits like a struck the whole time. It doesn't matter that it weighs him down, because you'll only use it to chip on player phase. Rhys is very useful for relatively low investment.

Oh, I agree he is useful... as a healer, that is. His offense, even with a high magic growth, can only be lacking when he can't double much of anything. 

[Uscari]

On 8/23/2023 at 5:20 PM, Shadow Mir said:

You're literally the only one who believes that. Honestly, coming underleveled is enough to make Tormod a hard sell in an iromman, let alone in Maniac mode, and especially in a run that's both. He comes at level 7 before chapter 17, which is a mega chapter, and one where I want my units promoting. Now, bexp can help with that... but not only is bexp not as plentiful, I could get better use out of it by boosting my powerhouses. 

Respectfully, I don't consider you an authority on what everyone else believes. Regardless, it doesn't matter if my opinion is unique to me, as long as it's the correct opinion.

Having said that, Chapter 17 is pretty easy, most of the enemies are unpromoted and there are a ton of them, which is a lot of food for Tormod. It's a bit harder on 17-3 and 17-4 to train tormod due to the volume/strength of enemies that come after him, but there is enough experience on 17-1 and 17-2 to get him close to your other units.

Tormod might not be an enemy phase unit, but he is a powerhouse. He is the guy you use to kill that one enemy no one else can deal with. He just straight up deletes enemies on player phase when trained.

On 8/23/2023 at 5:20 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Talk about skewed priorities... it doesn't mean anything if your run dies before then, now does it???

That's what Titania is for, you use her as needed to alleviate pressure early, and then bench her once your main units gain strength.

The mid-game is the easiest part of Maniac Mode and you don't need to worry about building a team to deal with it.

It's the end game that will kill most of your runs.

On 8/23/2023 at 5:20 PM, Shadow Mir said:

That's tough for me to buy when he prolly won't be leveling with the Knight Ward Every. SINGLE. TIME. Also, I think you are overrating just how necessary an armored knight is.

It doesn't even matter of his doesn't cap speed, as long as he is fast enough to not get doubled by anything other than Swordmasters, he does what I need him to do. He does this better than Gatrie or Tauroneo.

On 8/23/2023 at 5:20 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Oh, I agree he is useful... as a healer, that is. His offense, even with a high magic growth, can only be lacking when he can't double much of anything. 

So we agree, he is useful, not enough to be on the main team, but to help out.

[SnowFire]

I will say this for Tormod: If we flip the question, and say "what is the optimal situation to use Tormod", then I agree that Maniac is where he shines the most.  Normal / Hard are still owned a bit too much by bulky Cavaliers like Titania / Oscar / Kieran going bzzz and killing everything, so why make things harder on yourself?  At least on Maniac, the tankier enemies means that the chip utility + mages still holding up on damage has some place.  That said, this is more a "Tormod is pointless on Normal" comment.

And to be clear, I used Tormod too when I did my Maniac playthrough (well...  technically it's still underway, but I beat most of the game, and I stopped from boredom not difficulty), just his problems when he's underlevel shouldn't be undersold IMO.  He really does need a forged Tome to do good damage then.

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/25/2023 at 12:45 PM, Uscari said:

So we agree, he is useful, not enough to be on the main team, but to help out.

Mostly as a healer, which makes him useful by default. Although ping - or rather @gnip - opined at the end of his Maniac run that Mist might have been the better investment in the long run.

On 8/25/2023 at 12:45 PM, Uscari said:

Respectfully, I don't consider you an authority on what everyone else believes. Regardless, it doesn't matter if my opinion is unique to me, as long as it's the correct opinion.

And how can your opinion be "correct"?? Because if it's correct, it would then be fact, would it not?

On 8/25/2023 at 12:45 PM, Uscari said:

Having said that, Chapter 17 is pretty easy, most of the enemies are unpromoted and there are a ton of them, which is a lot of food for Tormod. It's a bit harder on 17-3 and 17-4 to train tormod due to the volume/strength of enemies that come after him, but there is enough experience on 17-1 and 17-2 to get him close to your other units.

Tormod might not be an enemy phase unit, but he is a powerhouse. He is the guy you use to kill that one enemy no one else can deal with. He just straight up deletes enemies on player phase when trained.

My other units need those enemies as well. So it's not like it's free real estate. You also mentioned 16 for his training arc... which I disagree with because I ain't content to just let thieves steal my shit and go unpunished. 17-1 is wide open, too (oh, and there's the part where I can do better than bring an anchor along in that chapter). Also, I generally think underleveled units very seldom turn out to be worth the investment.

Again you overestimate his capabilities. He isn't as powerful as Soren (and looking at the aforementioned run, Soren didn't exactly light the world on fire) - and Soren has his own issues, like having a specialization in the worst magic type aside from light. Speaking of, why in the seven hells would I wait until near the end of the game to have Ike get an A support with Soren when Oscar's support maxes out much faster??? I would also say that mages aren't at their best in this game; don't get me wrong, I still use them, but it's kinda obvious when one compares them to mages from Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones. 

On 8/25/2023 at 12:45 PM, Uscari said:

That's what Titania is for, you use her as needed to alleviate pressure early, and then bench her once your main units gain strength.

The mid-game is the easiest part of Maniac Mode and you don't need to worry about building a team to deal with it.

It's the end game that will kill most of your runs.

Ping's run showed she was capable of lasting the whole game.

Bold: What do you think we're talking about, Three Houses Maddening (where softlock is a real possibility)? 

On 8/25/2023 at 12:45 PM, Uscari said:

It doesn't even matter of his doesn't cap speed, as long as he is fast enough to not get doubled by anything other than Swordmasters, he does what I need him to do. He does this better than Gatrie or Tauroneo.

On the flipside, I'd argue Brom is worse off than either, not having Gatrie's early usability nor Tauroneo's nigh exclusive use of Resolve.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Xander]

You can solo Maniac with Titania. Why is the "optimal strategy" benching her?

Edited September 3, 2023 by Xander

[Shadow Mir]

12 hours ago, Xander said:

You can solo Maniac with Titania. Why is the "optimal strategy" benching her?

Because the OP has this unhealthy obsession with endgame potential. Which I find utter nonsense.

[Uscari]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:34 PM, Xander said:

You can solo Maniac with Titania. Why is the "optimal strategy" benching her?

In what universe can you solo maniac with any unit, let alone Titania?

[Xander]

21 hours ago, Uscari said:

In what universe can you solo maniac with any unit, let alone Titania?

The one you and I live in.

[samthedigital]

21 hours ago, Uscari said:

In what universe can you solo maniac with any unit, let alone Titania?

He's probably conflating the word solo with carry. There are better units for that job once we get Jill/Marcia up and running, but Titania can still find a spot on the team depending on playstyle.

[Uscari]

12 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

He's probably conflating the word solo with carry. There are better units for that job once we get Jill/Marcia up and running, but Titania can still find a spot on the team depending on playstyle.

 

There's no doubt she is useful for the duration of the game where she is overleveled, but she does fall off beyond the mid-point and eventually becomes a liability to keep fielding. She syphons experience that can be going to units that become faster, stronger, and bulkier than she can be.

Compared to Oscar, she ends up with -4 STR, -4 DEF, and worse supports. That's just not going to cut it in the end game.

Her bases are strong enough to assist handily through the early game and a fair portion of the mid-game. She's useful for blocking a choke point or getting rid of that one pesky unit you don't trust your trainees to deal with, but keeping her on the main team for the whole game is a waste of experience.

I will point out that giving her energy drops and dracoshields can bring her up to par with the rest of the team. Additionally, her higher luck and resistance growths can be handy in dealing with mixed enemy groups of magic/physical units, but those niche situations do not warrant that kind of investment. It's far more effective to put those on other units that have better stats overall.

I can understand someone thinking she should be used for an LTC run, but this is an ironman run of maniac mode, where the end game demands the strongest possible team you can put together. You can use her in the end game, but it's not optimal, and does decrease your chances of success.

[samthedigital]

43 minutes ago, Uscari said:

I can understand someone thinking she should be used for an LTC run, but this is an ironman run of maniac mode, where the end game demands the strongest possible team you can put together. You can use her in the end game, but it's not optimal, and does decrease your chances of success.

That's not necessarily true. What you need is a team that's strong enough to get a perfectly reliable clear; that doesn't necessitate having the best possible stats. For example I could have a unit with one less speed than another unit while still being able to double every relevant enemy. The same can be said for stats like defense, strength, hp, etc; it just takes someone dedicated enough to figure out what those breakpoints are. After we determine that then we'd want to figure out what combination of units does it fastest if we wanted to have the "correct" answer to your topic, and I'd refer to one of my previous posts for my thoughts on that.

Quote

She syphons experience that can be going to units that become faster, stronger, and bulkier than she can be.

If she's being used as a carry she will siphon some experience from other units, but not all of it, and they will still become stronger than her eventually. It might just be that it happens later than you would be used to. Maniac mode has a lot of available cexp anyway, so there probably isn't much of a difference by the end of the game.

Quote

Her bases are strong enough to assist handily through the early game and a fair portion of the mid-game. She's useful for blocking a choke point or getting rid of that one pesky unit you don't trust your trainees to deal with, but keeping her on the main team for the whole game is a waste of experience.

That really depends on the person's playstyle and how they approach an ironman in general. More optimized ironman runs would find ways to avoid stalling as much as possible even if they might have to slow down some for consistency. I wouldn't know though; this is not a high priority game for most people for obvious reasons, and speedrunning and ironmans are already niche.

Edited September 5, 2023 by samthedigital

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Uscari said:

 

There's no doubt she is useful for the duration of the game where she is overleveled, but she does fall off beyond the mid-point and eventually becomes a liability to keep fielding. She syphons experience that can be going to units that become faster, stronger, and bulkier than she can be.

Compared to Oscar, she ends up with -4 STR, -4 DEF, and worse supports. That's just not going to cut it in the end game.

Her bases are strong enough to assist handily through the early game and a fair portion of the mid-game. She's useful for blocking a choke point or getting rid of that one pesky unit you don't trust your trainees to deal with, but keeping her on the main team for the whole game is a waste of experience.

I will point out that giving her energy drops and dracoshields can bring her up to par with the rest of the team. Additionally, her higher luck and resistance growths can be handy in dealing with mixed enemy groups of magic/physical units, but those niche situations do not warrant that kind of investment. It's far more effective to put those on other units that have better stats overall.

I can understand someone thinking she should be used for an LTC run, but this is an ironman run of maniac mode, where the end game demands the strongest possible team you can put together. You can use her in the end game, but it's not optimal, and does decrease your chances of success.

Your obsession with endgame is ridiculous. Especially when you suggest no less than FIVE underleveled units (Jill, Soren, Tormod, Brom, Makalov) as mainstays. Honestly, having half the main team need active babysitting is gonna make the game harder on yourself.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On some level, I have to wonder about the utility of an "optimal team for Ironman" list. Like, normally, a "team guide" is great for recommendations about who to field, or who I should reset for if they die. But... the latter isn't an option in an Ironman playthrough. You have to play the hand you're dealt, and do what you can to satisfy the map clear conditions, without getting a game over. Who you field should just be... whichever of your units are the strongest, plus a couple support units. And if someone dies, you just replace them with the next-best unit to fulfill the same role.

That said, I suppose in Path of Radiance - a game with lots of limited resources, such as BEXP, skills, and support partners - there's some sense in discussing which resources are "best" on which unit. In that context, I have to imagine that bolstering Ike's defensive stats - such as with the Seraph Robe and/or Talisman - would be a sensible allocation. His death being a Game Over condition and all, you don't want to take any chances. Outside of that, I would think of BEXP as best going to your fliers and mounted units, since they can do the most with it. Savior will go on one of them too, but that's pretty obvious, and it comes late. Speaking of which, I would hang a "Do Not Deploy" sign around Elincia's neck, as she's her own Game Over, too. I'd alsosay "don't leave anything of value on Gatrie or Shinon before they leave", but again, pretty obvious to anyone who's beaten the game. Finally, I'd think an early-promo of either Soren or Ilyana is in your best interest, to get additional staff support online ASAP.

...But this is all from someone who hasn't touched Maniac Mode. I'm mostly working off of how I'd approach a Hard Mode Ironman. So I could be completely off base. But hey, maybe I'll try putting my own words into action next time that I play.