To Become an Elitist [Playlogs FE1-5] [currently playing: Thracia 776]

[Jotari]

58 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Come to think of it - this would've been, essentially, the path that Quan and friends took to meet up with Sigurd, way back in the Prologue. I like the idea of Leif, in particular, taking the journey his mother and father once did.

Well, no, because that map is my completely fan made idea for what we could have got if Miletos didn't exist. The bit of sea south west of Melgen (which I had to turn into a lake) suggests there isn't a path there because there's a mountain in the way. The path Quan and Ethlyn most likely took was the same one we see them on in Chapter 5, only from there they would have turn west and approached Edda from the south.

58 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

By the way, loving your custom maps. One of my favorite aspects of FE4 is everything melding together like this. I'm literally playing upon the world map!

I'll brook no praise for them. They are not good. The mix of palettes is hideous and I have a forest poking out into the ocean. This was a very time consuming low effort activity when I really should have been doing something better XD Genealogy's maps are just fantastic for that scale and and immersion of the story though. It was a ballsy move making every chapter in the game almost 4,000 tiles big and half coveredi n mountains and ocean the payer would never go to,  but it was one that paid off.

58 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Hear me out - the fact that we don't see anyone from Miletos means they could actually be black. And, there's more men than women in Gen II, so why not a black woman? And and, IS has definitely been more willing to include LGBT characters in their games, so a black trans woman from Miletos... farfetch'd, but not impossible.

...Make her a War Mage with Elthunder named Laverne. Laverne Shox.

Well we do see the children running from Ridale who are presumably from Miletos. And they're typical generic anime white children. That being said, I wouldn't be entirely against blackening up Miletos a bit of it were to get a few characters. It's in the south after all, and that's mostly what I'd care about when it comes to these things. Though, I suppose, Thracia is just as far south as well, and I don't think I'd react kindly to black Travant, but, idk, Miletos just feels sunnier because they used a dark palette for Thracia and a surprisingly bright one for Miletos. You also have the exotic trade hub angle with Miletos as well, which would make the idea more palettable. Maybe there is a southern continent they have access to which gives rise to all this trade and foreign travelers (though introducing something like that to the setting would give the inevitable question of why Lopt never conquered, though I suppose Lopt did know about Archanea and never found his hate boner for the mere existence of humans so great as to invade his homeland where all the humans he actually hated in life lived).

58 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wait, never mind what I said before. Turns out, we had a trans icon hidden in the Arena this whole time! Kaga, you magnificent dastard.

SNES just had the character limitations stopping the class from being named "Drag Queen" (don't think too hard about what that might suggest for Hilda).

 

Edited April 19 by Jotari

[Revier]

I would be up for depicting Miletos as the "harbor country" of Jugdral. Put in docks and ships(perhaps in poor condition, given current Loptyrian rule) and have like, one or two villagers be immigrants from other continents and comment on how horrible it is that Loptyr shut down all trade and transport, blocking their path back home, and there you go. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

41 minutes ago, Jotari said:

though introducing something like that to the setting would give the inevitable question of why Lopt never conquered, though I suppose Lopt did know about Archanea and never found his hate boner for the mere existence of humans so great as to invade his homeland where all the humans he actually hated in life lived

Mayhap Loptyr was less interested in human-annihilation, and more "Hey, this place has plenty of will-be slaves and none of those bothersome Divine Dragons. I hereby declare myself Emperor and I will have others build my vacation house right here!👇 Nooooo other dragons allowed 🚫🐉, nobody, my continent!".😛

-Just an idea.😜

[ping]

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

I tried to mock up a Chapter 10 where Miletos doesn't exist. I wanted to start from Luthecia (the chapter where Coirpre/Sharlow is held) and end up in Edda, to have continuity between the  maps, but the distance is too far both vertically and horizontally to fit on a standard Genealogy sized map. I could just about fit a chapter in where they start at Melgen (Ishtore's castle) and reach Edda.

As comparison, my much simpler suggestion of smushing ch.1 and the prologue together:

So basically, Seliph arrives at Genoa by boat; from there, he captures the strategically important Evans; after that, the Grannvale reaction is to attempt a surround with collaborateurs from all over Jugdral: Verdanian axe bois and hunters from the southwest, Agustrian paladins from the northwest, Silessian pegasi from the southeast where there is just the ocean and definitely nothing else, and probably some dark mages stationed in Jungby. Could possibly make for the equivalent of Victory or Death in BlaBla, Murdock's map in BinBla, Clash! in PoR etc.pp.

If Kaga absolutely wanted Miletos to exist on Jugdral's map, there could still be half of an island in the bottom right - with the castle just out of sight, similar to Nordion and Marpha on the other side of the map, so that Seliph doesn't have to go seize it. Plonk a village or two on there that only Fee or Altena can reach, and you can have a little bit of backstory fluff about Miletos, too.

16 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

All of Gen 2 has this one consideration behind it- how does a ragtag group of Issachan rebels end up overthrowing one-and-a-half-decade-almighty Grannvale Empire?

Direct confrontation between the core Grannvalian armies and Seliph's group could've happened as early as Chapter 7. Edda is directly west of Darna, the Empire could've easily sent out Brian as Seliph was dealing with Ishtore and flanked the rebels.

However, if you've any liking for a notion of realism, that couldn't happen. And if you wanted Gen 2 to be longer than maybe three chapters (without writing a retreat into Seliph's story), you couldn't have it happen either. Helping Leif on the Thracian Peninsula keeps away from Grannvale, and limits Seliph to only fighting regional imperial occupation forces -even if they're led by one of the leading families in the Empire. Travant & Arion are another useful distraction.

It's only with Miletos, 5/6s into Gen 2, that Seliph begins strategically aiming for Grannvale itself, he isn't moving away from it as he did going into the Thracian Peninsula. His army is well-experienced by now. Even if it might not feel like it, because Gen 2 has to share a game with Gen 1, and those giant maps... might impose limits on the feeling of story development/progression?

I agree that it makes sense for Seliph to first operate at the fringes of the Empire's control. However, I still think that you don't actually need Miletos to create that story structure, and that the story doesn't actually do anything with the new setting it introduced. Hilda could be stabbing children in Verdane (or Agustria, but that doesn't work geographically) just as well. Narratively, I think it would me much more interesting to return to Sigurd's old stomping ground - it's a cause to reminisce about Sigurd meeting Deirdre, or a little drama that Ares, Nanna and Dermott must fight their countrymen, or even the question if Sigurd is to blame for the desolation in Verdane (and/or Agustria) because he was always thinking with his seize button.

 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, ping said:

As comparison, my much simpler suggestion of smushing ch.1 and the prologue together:

So basically, Seliph arrives at Genoa by boat; from there, he captures the strategically important Evans; after that, the Grannvale reaction is to attempt a surround with collaborateurs from all over Jugdral: Verdanian axe bois and hunters from the southwest, Agustrian paladins from the northwest, Silessian pegasi from the southeast where there is just the ocean and definitely nothing else, and probably some dark mages stationed in Jungby. Could possibly make for the equivalent of Victory or Death in BlaBla, Murdock's map in BinBla, Clash! in PoR etc.pp.

If Kaga absolutely wanted Miletos to exist on Jugdral's map, there could still be half of an island in the bottom right - with the castle just out of sight, similar to Nordion and Marpha on the other side of the map, so that Seliph doesn't have to go seize it. Plonk a village or two on there that only Fee or Altena can reach, and you can have a little bit of backstory fluff about Miletos, too.

I agree that it makes sense for Seliph to first operate at the fringes of the Empire's control. However, I still think that you don't actually need Miletos to create that story structure, and that the story doesn't actually do anything with the new setting it introduced. Hilda could be stabbing children in Verdane (or Agustria, but that doesn't work geographically) just as well. Narratively, I think it would me much more interesting to return to Sigurd's old stomping ground - it's a cause to reminisce about Sigurd meeting Deirdre, or a little drama that Ares, Nanna and Dermott must fight their countrymen, or even the question if Sigurd is to blame for the desolation in Verdane (and/or Agustria) because he was always thinking with his seize button.

 

I'd absolutely be on for some revisit to Verdane and Agustria even if its just the fringes, just so we can have some idea of what happens there. So would we get Hilda at Evans, Scipio at Jungby and Alvis at Chalphy? Would Julius and Ishtar still appear (oh, eh, you do know he takes the field in this chapter, I hope). And how can we force a Jungby seize before Chalphy? Usually the force the final castle to be seized last using mountain valleys or a river crossing, but it's a bit more blatant if you're just having yellow tiles on an empty field. Either Jungby should be skipable or we'd need to alter the landscape of the prologue a bit, maybe by tossing in another river or something, so Chalphy is isolated enough to block the player off from it.

My issue is still be just how geographically far that is to transit off screen. Even Miletos is a bit of a hop, but this is half the continent. Therefore I propose a restructuring of the continent to look more like this.

Isaach is moved further south while Munster and Thracia have been rotated slightly and moved south west into Miletos's position. This layout would change remarkably little in terms of gameplay.

Also I have to point out that your suggestion would put Evans on a total of four different chapters. Which I just find kind of funny given how unimportant it is as a location in universe, being basically just a border fort, but being positioned at a tripoint that just gives it an excuse to keep coming back.

[Revier]

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I just find kind of funny given how unimportant it is as a location in universe,

On the contrary, I have to imagine it would be a constant flashpoint, given its proximity to Grannvale and the unfriendliness of both Verdane and Agustria. The Verdanites did launch multiple raids on Grannvale in the past, and I have to imagine some opportunistic Augustrian king could have thought of using it as a launch pad for their raid/invasion. Granted, we know little of how Verdane thinks of Augustria, or vice versa, and we know little of the Grannvale/Augustrian border either, but we can presume it must be fairly defensible for Elliot to choose striking at Evans instead of any of the Grannvalian cities.

Edited April 19 by Revier

[Jotari]

40 minutes ago, Revier said:

On the contrary, I have to imagine it would be a constant flashpoint, given its proximity to Grannvale and the unfriendliness of both Verdane and Agustria. The Verdanites did launch multiple raids on Grannvale in the past, and I have to imagine some opportunistic Augustrian king could have thought of using it as a launch pad for their raid/invasion. Granted, we know little of how Verdane thinks of Augustria, or vice versa, and we know little of the Grannvale/Augustrian border either, but we can presume it must be fairly defensible for Elliot to choose striking at Evans instead of any of the Grannvalian cities.

Oh we're of course free to presume that. It is, after all, precisely why it ends up being the only location other than Chalphy to be in three different chapters. I just mean in how it's never referred to in the plot and is kind of a forgettable place when listing the names of sigificant locations from the game.

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, ping said:

I agree that it makes sense for Seliph to first operate at the fringes of the Empire's control. However, I still think that you don't actually need Miletos to create that story structure, and that the story doesn't actually do anything with the new setting it introduced.

I don't deny that. But with exception of carryover portions of map and returning to Grannvale, Genealogy insists on visiting somewhere new every single chapter. That developer decision perhaps either forced Miletos into existence, or forced it to be visited when it could've merely been a "filler location" on the map (not like you visit everywhere on the parchment in every other FE).

Was it because Kaga thought so little of Sigurd that retracing the failure father's footsteps was deemed unexciting? Or that total map reuse, even with changed enemy formations or whatnot, was frowned up as too repetitive to feature? -I would strongly assume the latter.

[Revier]

Do we know how Book 2 was received back in the day? It getting complaints over reused maps could likely explain why Genealogy actively tries to avoid revisiting places besides Grannvale during its campaign.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't deny that. But with exception of carryover portions of map and returning to Grannvale, Genealogy insists on visiting somewhere new every single chapter. That developer decision perhaps either forced Miletos into existence, or forced it to be visited when it could've merely been a "filler location" on the map (not like you visit everywhere on the parchment in every other FE).

Was it because Kaga thought so little of Sigurd that retracing the failure father's footsteps was deemed unexciting? Or that total map reuse, even with changed enemy formations or whatnot, was frowned up as too repetitive to feature? -I would strongly assume the latter.

I would expect you're right. Though as an outspoken critic of Book 2's approach to reused maps, I have to say that Ping's suggestion for map reuse is one I can get behind. Blended reuse. It's not the exact same map as the prologue, it's the same map shifted to give it a different vibe. Like Renvall in Sacred Stones or Castle Ostia in Binding/Blazing Blade. Maps that are reused in a partial way that you probably don't even realize they're reused just because you're exploring the territory at a slightly different angle. Hell even Book 2 does this with the Raman chapter. And I really wish they'd done it with the other reused maps. But I've ranted about that before.

Instead, let's look at the gameplay and narrative goals of Chapter 10. I think these are the beats they wanted to hit.

*Manfroy kidnapping Julia (it's there, but really they barely even tried)

*Confronting Hilda in some manner

*Seeing Julius in action for the first time

*Getting Tyrfing

*Killing Alvis

Would all that be possible in the proposed Prologue Chapter 1 hybrid map? Probably, but it might be a bit contrived. As I suggested above, we arrive in Genoa and Hilda is stationed in Evans. Why is Hilda in Evans? That...would be slightly weird. But not entirely unworkable. Friege is just north of there, though there seems to be a few mountains in the way. Hilda's presence in Miletos is written away by just making her Queen of the entire place. So we could make her Queen of Verdane or Agustria, particularly the latter since was already set up that the Friege family would get that kingship.

Next, Julius. This might be the hardest part to accomplish. Chapter 10 makes him work by putting him directly beside a castle you can seize to avoid fighting him (in addition to killing Ishtar instead). But to do that with Jungby or Chalphy has the issue that you could just skip him. Which might be okay. Another option would be to plop him down on the other side of the river beside Evans and because the area is so wide, you basically can't avoid him. You have to kill him or Ishtar. Or, we could have a turn counter where he automatically gets bored and goes home after five turns on the field, while you're meanwhile trying to fend off the reinforcements from Verdane, Agustria and Silesse.

Getting Tyrfing in Chapter 10 is done by having to fight through and army to rescue Palmarch. We might actually be able to pull that off in the same location if we cut off more of the west of Ping's map and push Evans right up against the right hand border to give more space in the east. It would also make the rescue less of a "Just throw your fliers at the dark mages" solution and force you to deal with the army in a timely fashion. Though, without changing the geography of the prologue map (which was probably one of the first maps designed as is tailored pretty precisely to work the way it does) we're still left with the issue that Jungby can just be ignored. We could make it so you have to seize both to end the chapter, but Scipio, or anyone else you can put there is not going to have the same punch after beating Alvis. The other option would be to make it completely optional, and put Tyrfing there for...some reason. With you having to capture it to get Jungby, but they'd later do that with Naga and Velthomer, so it'd be a bit repetitive. The best solution would probably be to put in a bunch of thickets that aren't there in the prologue with gates between them locking off the east side of the chapter.

Killing Alvis is going to be the same since we want to end up in Chalphy for the final chapter, as that's by far the most appropriate home castle on a thematic and geographical level. Why Alvis is even at Chalphy, I don't think is explained in actual Chapter 10. He's just there because he's taking the threat seriously. Which is fair enough. Of course we also have ghost Sigurd scene afterwards as a secret event, but that could happen literally anywhere.

So, in conclusion, yes, it could probably work. But it would take a little bit of forced designing of things, particularly in regards to Jungby and what role that can play. Miletos's design is very intentionally designed to funnel you into that end conflict. Of course, it's not like the chapters as are aren't afraid of just altering the geography a good deal. Coming to think of it, a bunch of thickets are added directly west of Chalphy specifically just to make the final chapter function better. So the prologue has already been changed to accommodate that.

As a side bar, while I like Hilda's appearance in this chapter, I don't like that we fight her here. Julius I can tolerate killing twice because he's optional, and he's also the big bad, so he gets some leeway in being powerful enough to shrug off HP to 0. But Hilda is such a literal why? Chagall is pretty much a forced fight twice because of the plot, but Hilda absolutely could have walked away only to be fought in the final chapter. Or even just killed here. Her and Bloom's wedding rings must be like the Focus Sash from Pokemon or something. But anyway, the reason in particular that Hilda being a boss of this chapter annoys me in particular. It's because there's another vampish Velthomer lady who is conspicuously absent.

Aida! Where is Aida! Well, I know precisely where she is, she's dead because Thracia 776 tells us she is, but they shouldn't have had to! It shouldn't have been Thracia's job to fill up Genealogy plot holes. And I call this a plot hole. Because Aida, while being a pretty minor character is still a pretty important one. She is one of the people who killed Sigurd. Alvis gets all of the credit, but she was in on the conspiracy. She was the one that fooled Sigurd, gained his trust by helping kill Reptor and then sent him into the meat grinder. She is massively culpable in the biggest plot point in the game. She deserves to reappear and get her comeuppance,or redemption or something. It's like if, I don't know, Danglars just vanished from the plot of the Count of Monte Cristo because a long time has passed. We don't even hear he's dead, he just vanishes. No explanation. Aida absolutely should have been fought in this chapter and Genealogy is a lesser story for not even explaining that she's dead. Hell, why not just straight up make her be Hilda? I think we view Aida as slightly more sympathetic a character because of the Saias retcon, but one of the collaborators of the conspiracy that took out three different Dukes (Reptor, Sigurd and, probably, Claude) would be a reasonable to be rewarded with marriage into the Friege family and a Queenship. And wouldn't that be great for making her more of a hate sink, which is basically Hilda's whole purpose? She tortured Tine, hunted children and KILLED SIGURD! She also killed Reptor and then married his fucking son, probably without telling him (Hmm, coming to think of it, isn't that a bit of a plot hole too? Surely Bloom must of learned that Velthomer played a role in his father's death. Did he just not care? Was getting Leinster to placate him?). But really she doesn't need a role even as big as Hilda's. That's just one possibility. She could have been placed basically anywhere with little fanfare and it still would have meant something for the plot. Aida is missing for no good reason, and while I appreciated Thracia for providing an explanation, that was never Thracia's job to do (and is delivered pretty hamfistedly there too).

Edited April 19 by Jotari

[Revier]

Speaking of Aida, where do people get the idea that Arvis was in a relationship with her? Is it something that Thracia 776 brings up?

I agree that she seems pretty muted for how significant her role in the story is.

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, Revier said:

Speaking of Aida, where do people get the idea that Arvis was in a relationship with her? Is it something that Thracia 776 brings up?

Yes. Well...probably. Saias is a character in Thracia 776 who is revealed to be Aida's son and has the mark of Fjalar on his body which neither Julius or Julia are said to have (even though Julius does have minor Fjalar blood). On looking at the script Alvis isn't expressly identified by name, the only time he's mentioned is a brief mention of Amalada admiring him, but we do know, Aida is Saias' mother, Saias has major Fjalar holy blood and that Alvis has major Fjalar holy blood. So unless Victor slept with one of his cousins and did the whole blood mingling trick and then that guy got hitched with Aida, Alvis is the only possible candidate to be the father. Looking at the sources on the wiki (how nice), it does seem there is official confirmation from a Nintendo website that Saias' parents are Alvis and Aida.

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n02/shvc/bfej/data/chara/index.html

Of course since it's not mentioned expressly in game, feel free to imagine the bastard of a bastard secret major holy blood half brother of Alvis. It's pretty far from occum's razor though. As for a relationship with her, that is very much open to interpretation. It really depends on how you view their characters. It seems almost certain he didn't marry her. But it could have been a one time thing resulting in a kid, or it could have been an on going relationship lasting months or years.

Edited April 19 by Jotari

[Saint Rubenio]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

ut anyway, the reason in particular that Hilda being a boss of this chapter annoys me in particular. It's because there's another vampish Velthomer lady who is conspicuously absent.

Yeah, you know, Aida should absolutely have been the boss of Miletos, actually.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

(and is delivered pretty hamfistedly there too).

They literally did it with an "as you know," lol

Edited April 19 by Saint Rubenio

[ping]

FE4 Chapter 10: Light and Darkness

Perlucos --> Chronos --> Rados

Spoiler

I'll have to immediately credit this map for this: No two turns of walking about before encountering the first group of enemies. Right out the castle gate, we can (and have to) take a stab at the Dark Mages.

__

And with all our mounted units plus a dance, you can do quite a lot to those Loptyrians, too. You can also see Shanan at the top right of our group, after having a convo with Seliph:

: "You've grown so strong of late, Seliph! You really are your parents' son. There's nothing left for me to teach you."
: "Thank you, Shanan... For everything. Any might I have springs from your teachings. To me, swordplay is every bit as natural as breathing, and I owe it all to you."
: "Heh... You think so, do you..."
: "You look awfully weary, Shanan... Is something amiss? If only I could lend you my strength..."
: "Hey, come on! You needn't treat me like some old man. I'm as young and spry as ever, you know!"
: "Oh! My apologies, Shanan... That wasn't what I was-"
: "Heh, it's fine. ...Thanks anyway, Seliph. It heartens me to know that you care."

[+3 HP --> Shanan]

Shanan was probably called "mister" by a teenager for the first time recently, so that's why he's a bit sensitive here.

____

And here's the result of the first round of combat. Very horse-centric, since foot units just don't have the reach. Most importantly, both Fenrir and both Hel wielders are dead immediately, and Altena is not in range of the left enemy Sniper.

In the back, Faval and Lana had a little moment:

: "Wait a minute... I've never seen someone so frail hold their own out here like this. Aren't you scared at all?"

Fun fact: If Lana had decided to become an Archer instead of a Priest, her Str would've been 7 points above Faval's, and on par with Finn, Nanna, and Ares. She's also basically as tanky as Faval on the physical side (+1 HP, -1 Def) even in her High Priest class, although she admittedly has an 8-level lead at the start of the fight.

: "I won't lie to you... I am. I really am. But I could never sit back and do nothing knowing all those children are still in peril."
: "Huh, so you're fond of kids, then?"
: "Oh, certainly! I love children. And from what I hear, you do as well! You've been looking after orphans, haven't you, Faval? I think that's just wonderful!"
: "Er, don't get too excited there... Patty dragged me into the whole 'look after orphans' thing. Not the biggest fan myself."
: "Hee hee hee... You sound so sure! I'm not blind, you know. How, then, do you explain all the sobbing children who begged you to stay as you left to join us? Why, they must all see you as some sort of father figure!"
: "H-hey, stop it, would you! I... it's just that... Look, I've got some things to go do, okay?"

[+3 HP --> Lana; +100 love points]

Everybody point and laugh at Faval for his lack of rugged manliness. He's good with children! How embarrassing!

Speaking of children, Patty gifts Sharlow her arena earnings. He'll pick up the Warp staff to spam himself to promotion and beyond, although he won't get started with that just yet. But next update, somebody is going to be ping-ponged between Perlucos and... somewhere. I believe Larcei is still carrying around one of the Return Bands.

____

No danger during enemy phase. Not sure what the logic behind targeting Leylia is here - I redid this first turn once because I didn't think of selling Warp with Lana and Leylia took a map in both cases, so my first guess was that maybe it's because Leylia has the lowest HP on the team. But that Sleep Dark Mage is going to survive for another turn and he'll target Johalvier next, even though Leylia was also still in his range, so I have no idea.

__

I think I like this John Constipatius. Too bad he has to die.

____

So, on we go, with Leif starting to make use of the Rescue staff. He has a decent amount of cash (about 27k) and absolutely zero need for the Paragon band, so I don't think I have to be conservative about its usage.

So he rescues Leylia ahead a second time on the same turn. I'm feeling very ltc right now.

____

Not a lot to say here, except "sucks to be you if you don't have a horse".

Turn 3, Dermott stays behind a bit to kill the two Pirates coming from the south. He kills the first with the Brave Sword and will get a double-proc next turn, allowing him to one-round the second with the Thief's Sword.

__

You'll also notice that I try to get Tinni some work. She's carrying the Paragon Band onto the field, so she ought to make use of it (...although she could easily cap out by grabbing the Return staff to play ping-pong with Sharlow).

Still on turn 3, Seliph reaches Hilda. ...Rescue staff with no worries about durability is fun.

: "It's you! YOU are Seliph! Gah... If not for you, Blume and Ishtore would still be... You will not escape me!"

...well, that was a very productive first round of combat.

____

Much better. Sure, I'm wasting my time by chipping with Seliph, since that means he won't be able to seize with the same action, but I see a chance for narratively appropriate boss killing:

: "You really are every bit the ingrate your dear mama was!"
: "Hilda! You... What you did to Mother..."
: "Ahh, that takes me back! It's been so long since I've had as much fun as tormenting that eyesore you call 'mama'... Ahahaha!"

Hilda, she called her "Mother" just now.

: "No! You... I won't forgive you..."
: "Why, if I didn't know better, I'd say that's the smart mouth of someone all grown up! What could a brat like you ever hope to do? Good think you miss your mama. You're about to join her in hell!"

Bzzt!

: "Gah... This can't be happening! I can't stay here... I must retreat..."

With Leif using Tornado already, there's not much use for Bolganone, so it's really just some extra cash for Tinni.

Here, Leif and Altena cross path again, which ticks the box for the third and (for now) last conversation available:

: "Is everything alright, Altena? You look rather weary."
: "Oh, Leif... No, it's nothing. Don't worry about it."
: "Well, if you say so... Listen, Altena. Don't be afraid to ask for my help. If you ever need anything, I'll gladly do all I can."
: "Thanks, Leif. Er, actually... I was thinking of Arion."
: "I thought as much. Is it true that someone came to spirit him away after we brought him down?"
: "It is, and from what I hear, that someone was Prince Julius..."

Seliph is really bad at relaying critical information to his companions.

: "The Empire's crown prince himself?! But why... Why in the world would he do that?"
: "Perhaps he's trying to win himself a new ally by appealing to Arion."
: "That makes sense... And I suppose it means we'll be crossing blades with Thracia's dracoknights again."
: "Mm. I'm afraid so. So long as this war continues..."
: "To be honest, Altena, I believe this actually good news."
: "Huh? How so?"
: "Think about it. So long as Arion is still alive, there is still hope that we can help him. Never give up, Altena. So long as we keep moving forward, surely everything will be fine in the end."
: "Thank you, Leif... I think I'm feeling better already."
: "Oh, thank the gods. I couldn't bear knowing that my sister was in such grief. I'm here for you, Altena. All I want is to ensure your happiness, and I'll do whatever it takes to help you."

[+1 Lck --> Altena]

And while we're collecting dialogue:

: "Ohh! Oh, noble crusader! We beg of you, save our children! The children... the dark priests want to sacrifice them to their god!"

[5000 gold --> Oifey]

And because I'm forgetful, Seliph does not seize Chronos despite being part of Leylia's dance. Although this will be somewhat useful next turn, so I should probably pretend it was deliberate.

__

This is also the first bit of combat against Riddell's group. Altena is in the range to counter three of them, one-rounding them with the Silver Lance, and to get a big zap from one of the Mage Knights. She can't use the Gáe Bolg (and she might not have doubled with it) because the Lance Pala probably wouldn't have attacked her.

Now, how much can we do on player phase...

Well, first of all, Dermott can get another one-round with the Thief's Sword. Very nice.

____

And the general answer to the question is, "Quite a lot, actually". And Seliph being that extra few tiles forward does help including  him in Leylia's dance.

__

: "Nngh... So this is how the gods will my fate..."

__

And here I thought Genealogy was an EP-focussed game.

: "Any luck finding the children, Lewyn?"
: "Nope, no luck. Looks like they've already been sent to Miletos. Let's move! There's no time to lose while they're still in danger. But it looks like we'll need to capture Rados as well, if we're going to get the gates of Miletos open."
: "Understood. Castle Rados is our next challenge, then!"

And the next turn, I remember to actually seize Chronos.

: "Long ago, the Twelve Crusaders waged holy war against the Loptyr Empire for fifteen years. Nary a single corner of the land of Jugdral escaped the war's clutches. It was Saint Heim who smote the dark god's avatar, Emperor Galle XVII, restoring light to this land at long last. And yet... the dark god is upon us once more. Oh, great crusaders, protect us all!"

[4000 gold --> Leif]

Well, I suppose I was still thinking about Leif's staff repairing budget.

Seizing Chronos unlocks a conversation between Oifey and Seliph, mirroring that of Shanan earlier:

: "Look, sire! The territory of Chalphy awaits us just acroos the Miletos Strait."
: "Chalphy... My father's homeland... I can only imagine all the memories you must have of it, Oifey."
: "Mm, of course. I don't think there's a single corner of Chalphy which I don't recall fondly... Lord Sigurd and Lady Ethlyn... Noish, Alec, and all of my other peers among the young knights of Chalphy..."

---

: "..."

---

: "Every last face there was a friendly one..."
: "Hm... I can only imagine, Oifey. I've never so much as set foot in Chalphy, have I?"
: "Indeed, sire. You were born in Agustria, and raised in Silesse and Isaach. Come to think of it, sire, you've never been anywhere Grannvale till now."
: "Quite the sorry excuse for a prince of Grannvale I make, wouldn't you say? It almost feels as if I've tricked the world."
: "I know, sire, but I pray you understand. This is the will of your citizens, all long abused and stripped of power by the Empire. They've endured decades of suffering beyond compare at the Empire's hands, all in the hope of, one day, seeing the coming of their savior."
: "This savior... Do they believe it to be me?"
: "They do. The common folk have long prayed for the second coming of the hero Sigurd. The folklore claims he comes once more in the form of a legendary child whom Sigurd begat with Empress Deirdre."
: "A legendary child... It's terrifying to know that people have taken to seeing me as some sort of god, Oifey."
: "Think of it as a product of the sheer brutality of the Empire's regime, sire. Look around you. We stand in a realm where children are snatched from their parents in droves, and all who resist are put to slaughter. No mere human could ever wreak such madness. A great evil lurks behind it all..."
: "Say, Oifey... I've been hearing tales that Emperor Arvis is the dark god itself. Where do you stand?"
: "I've heard the same from countless others in our travels, but I doubt it."
: "Then who could it be? Manfroy, perhaps?"
: "Sire... Whoever it may be, the dark god's return is fast approaching. We must hurry. Your people have come to revere you as a crusader destined to save them. The time to heed their call is upon us."

[+3 HP --> Oifey]

To be honest, I didn't expect Sigurd to be exalted to this degree. I appreciate that he's remembered fondly by the people he fought with (for example, Erin telling her children stories about him), but making him into the great hero whose "second coming" (in case somebody still didn't pick up on Seliph's messianic vibes) will deliver mankind from all sins seems more than just a little disproportional. He drove off barbaric invaders, yes, but those aren't connected at all to the current catastrophe, and his following victories all took place outside of Grannvale. When he returned, he was basically tricked by Arvis to help remove his rivals for power, Langbalt and Reptor, before immediately getting murderised himself.

That said, Seliph being perceived as a savior isn't entirely baseless, as much as I dislike the trope of the "Chosen One" - but that should come from who his mother is. Deirdre is the one with Naga blood - and since Arvis's claim to power comes from her lineage, that isn't much of a state secret, either. Who exactly Seliph's father is (apart from "not Arvis") doesn't really have to matter in this narrative.

__

After Riddell is defeated and Chronos seized, getting to Rados is pretty much a formality, with no mobile enemies remaining on the field. So, a small delegation pays him a visit, while the other mounted units already move further on towards Miletos.

(note: Those who played this map will possibly be a bit anxious at that second screenshot. I will indeed have a little shock after seizing Rados - although I didn't make screenshots or saved the game after that - but nobody is going to die)

: "Behold. In your final moments, you will cower in fear of my dark sorcery!"

That's not dark sorcery, that's blue sorcery!

__

And after cleaning up the nearby enemies (XP is XP! ...what do you mean, they'll cap their level anyway?), Seliph kills Morrigan and seizes.

...okay, that does not sound like something DA:O!Morrigan would say.

: "This is... It's like a ghost town..."
: "The handiwork of Morrigan's mages, I hear. Any who dared to resist met a grisly end..."
: "How could they... How could anyone be so savage..."
: "And that's why we've got to fight this war to the end, Seliph. This is something you've got to understand. This is the way of the Loptyr Empire. They have no place at all for the good-hearted... Now, it shouldn't be too long before the gate through to Miletos opens for us. What's your next move, Seliph?"
: "Needless to say, we must march on Miletos. We can't afford to rest while those children are still at risk... Or Julia, for that matter."
: "Good. And after that, Grannvale awaits!"

Speaking of children, the ones of Chronos have been pretty much ignored this entire time. Ulster rescues one of them on the turn Seliph seizes and might rescue another, but overall, since this isn't a ranked run (and cannot be because I have way to many L's in the augury), the XP from these really doesn't matter much anymore.

That's it for now. The story didn't really move forward very much ("Loptyr bad" and "Seliph is blue-haired Jesus" have been established already and have only been reinforced here), but having peeked ahead to what will happen next turn, I can say that something will come up then.

The Team:

	  Lv.	  HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res  Funds  XP    Arn
Seliph	  29.84	  68  25   7  22  22  28  22  16  34720  +406  [*]
Leif	  30	  66  27   8  27  27  17  27  11  27372  +521  [*]
Oifey	  25.34   53  20  10  22  21  12  20   8  37340  --    [1]
Finn	  30	  51  24   1  18  22  24  21   4  50000  +91   [*]

Dermott	  27.26	  60  23   0  30  23  20  19   7  42532  +182  [1]
Nanna	  30	  58  24   7  22  21  24  24   8  37680  +210  [*]
Ares	  28.46	  71  24   9  21  21  18  23  13  30870  +340  [*]
Fee	  30	  56  20  17  24  29  15  20  24  27417  +276  [*]

Altena	  27.25   66  27   3  23  22  11  28   2  40860  +549  [*]
Arthur	  29.39	  39   6  23  22  22  26  11  11  43520  +349  [*]
Lester	  26.54	  54  22   3  18  20  24  18   4  30563  +458  [*]
Ulster	  26.48	  64  27   7  27  24  11  22   4  0      +508  [*]

Larcei	  27.88	  66  27   1  30  30  19  22   6  33570  +328  [*]
Shanan	  27.29	  63  23   0  30  26  12  20   6  39880  +379  [*]
Patty	  28.22	  60  21  15  20  27  24  17   9  0      +443  [*]
Johalvier 28.74   58  26   0  18  21   7  24   8  26715  +134  [*]

Hannibal  21.96   60  21   0  16  12   7  23   6  44120  --    [1]
Faval	  25.59   62  17  15  20  27  28  13   5  35423  +408  [*]
Ced	  27.69	  52   5  26  22  30  27  14  27  22600  +416  [*]
Lana	  30	  61  12  24  24  23  29  12  11  13226  +27   [*]

Tinni	  24.81	  57   4  23  24  27  26   9  16  29753  +622  [*]
Sharlow	  13.10	  34   2  16   9  11   9   5  11  20493  +210  ---
Leylia	  11.56	  29   9   2   1  14   7   2   6  13000  +80   [*]

 

 

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Was it because Kaga thought so little of Sigurd that retracing the failure father's footsteps was deemed unexciting? Or that total map reuse, even with changed enemy formations or whatnot, was frowned up as too repetitive to feature? -I would strongly assume the latter.

6 hours ago, Revier said:

Do we know how Book 2 was received back in the day? It getting complaints over reused maps could likely explain why Genealogy actively tries to avoid revisiting places besides Grannvale during its campaign.

That is a good point. I don't know if it was much of a point of criticism when it was released, but Book 2's reused maps (with the exception of the bridge) really weren't all that good, so I could understand if Kaga was reluctant to repeat it... even if I still think it would've been cooler than this entirely new country without any real relevance to the story outside of this one chapter.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

*Manfroy kidnapping Julia (it's there, but really they barely even tried)

*Confronting Hilda in some manner

*Seeing Julius in action for the first time

*Getting Tyrfing

*Killing Alvis

• Since House Freege was supposed to get the Agustrian lands anyway, having Hilda appear in this area would make a lot of sense. Maybe not so much in the border fort of Evans, but she could appear together with reinforcements - maybe at the start of the fight, maybe when Evans is seized. Realistically, she'd reside in Agustry Castle, but rush to the scene when she hears of Seliph landing near the borders of her lands. You would have to put yet another Philip on guard duty in Evans, but it's not like Genealogy is shy about that kind of thing.
• Julius could appear similarly to how he does in the real Ch.10, in front of Jungby once you've seized Evans. Or maybe in front of Chalphy ("You sit back and see how Ishtar and I handle these upstart rebels, father. At your age, you shouldn't excert yourself too much.")
• I haven't read up the details, but I know that Arvis will send out some old man to deliver Tyrfing to Seliph. He could to the same here, just for that old man be intercepted by Scorpio and brought to Jungby. That would also address your (good) point that the path past Jungby to Chalphy is so open that ignoring Jungby would seem like a good move. And speedrunners / LTCers could figure out if it saves time or not to skip Tyrfing... although I suppose they have to do that in the original, too.
• Yeah, Arvis wouldn't really require any changes.

...I wrote that before reading your own thoughts, and I see mine didn't turn out too different.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I remember that you alluded to this back in chapter 5 Nothing to add, she should've had a gen 2 appearance.

 

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, ping said:

To be honest, I didn't expect Sigurd to be exalted to this degree. I appreciate that he's remembered fondly by the people he fought with (for example, Erin telling her children stories about him), but making him into the great hero whose "second coming" (in case somebody still didn't pick up on Seliph's messianic vibes) will deliver mankind from all sins seems more than just a little disproportional. He drove off barbaric invaders, yes, but those aren't connected at all to the current catastrophe, and his following victories all took place outside of Grannvale. When he returned, he was basically tricked by Arvis to help remove his rivals for power, Langbalt and Reptor, before immediately getting murderised himself.

The way I interpret it (possibly backed up by some village statements or Kaga notes, or Thracia or something, possibly just my own creation, it's kind of hard to keep track of things with how scattered some of this information is), is that the Empire's propaganda against Sigurd has backfired on them. They painted him as a devious rebel who wanted to snatch the throne for himself. But, because the empire turned out so shitty, Sigurd as the enemy of the early empire instead became the only sane man who saw the writing on the wall and tried to stop all the tragedy before it happened, at least in the eyes of the common people. The dramatic irony is that he wasn't that either and was really just a dude trying to protect himself with no real  knowledge Lopt Sect plans or possible future beyond the vaguest knowledge that they existed.

13 minutes ago, ping said:

That's not dark sorcery, that's blue sorcery!

It's dark blue! Well...kind of. It certainly isn't light blue....well...it's not cyan.

[BrightBow]

20 minutes ago, ping said:

[+3 HP --> Lana; +100 love points]

Gotta push those cousin romances, I suppose.

Although since their mothers were identical twin sisters, biologically it's less cousins and more half siblings.
 

25 minutes ago, ping said:

: "Mm, of course. I don't think there's a single corner of Chalphy which I don't recall fondly... Lord Sigurd and Lady Ethlyn... Noish, Alec, and all of my other peers among the young knights of Chalphy..."

You guys didn't deserve Arden.

[ping]

34 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The way I interpret it (possibly backed up by some village statements or Kaga notes, or Thracia or something, possibly just my own creation, it's kind of hard to keep track of things with how scattered some of this information is), is that the Empire's propaganda against Sigurd has backfired on them. They painted him as a devious rebel who wanted to snatch the throne for himself. But, because the empire turned out so shitty, Sigurd as the enemy of the early empire instead became the only sane man who saw the writing on the wall and tried to stop all the tragedy before it happened, at least in the eyes of the common people. The dramatic irony is that he wasn't that either and was really just a dude trying to protect himself with no real  knowledge Lopt Sect plans or possible future beyond the vaguest knowledge that they existed.

That would've been really interesting if it had ever come up in the game. A Kaga special, tbh.

27 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Gotta push those cousin romances, I suppose.

Well, in medieval Europe, cousin r--

27 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Although since their mothers were identical twin sisters, biologically it's less cousins and more half siblings.

Oof.

(Disclaimer that Fire Emblem isn't really a medieval setting, specifically not when it comes to social standards and values, so "it happened in medieval Europe" isn't really much of a point, anyway)

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

even though Julius does have minor Fjalar blood

As does Julia. She can even use Bolganone in the final chapter, if the Book of Naga isn't to your liking.

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

SNES just had the character limitations stopping the class from being named "Drag Queen" (don't think too hard about what that might suggest for Hilda).

Drag Queen Hilda would actually be less creepy, IMO. Because now she's not biologically related to Ishtar. So, pushing her into a relationship with Julius at least loses the "incest?" angle.

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

4,000 tiles big and half coveredi n mountains and ocean the payer would never go to,  but it was one that paid off

And the one time the player does, they run into Jake, and get a Res boost on two specific units.

...Like, really, who was figuring that out without a guide.

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

That being said, I wouldn't be entirely against blackening up Miletos a bit of it were to get a few characters. It's in the south after all, and that's mostly what I'd care about when it comes to these things. Though, I suppose, Thracia is just as far south as well, and I don't think I'd react kindly to black Travant, but, idk, Miletos just feels sunnier because they used a dark palette for Thracia and a surprisingly bright one for Miletos.

Yeah, they're definitely not gonna "racebend" anyone who's been in Heroes, like Travant or Jamke, even if they're from southern nations. That said, we don't have anyone (named) from Miletos. So they could totally go for it, if they felt like. More likely "tan" than "black", though.

Hm... if Travant creates a problem... maybe they could say that the original inhabitants of Southern Thracia were darker-skinned? But when Dainn and Njorun split up, and the Kingdom of Thracia was founded, most of the original inhabitants were driven out. Either leaving overseas, or settling in neighboring Miletos.

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Aida! Where is Aida!

I coulda sworn we fought her back in chapter 7...

4 hours ago, ping said:

Julius could appear similarly to how he does in the real Ch.10, in front of Jungby once you've seized Evans. Or maybe in front of Chalphy ("You sit back and see how Ishtar and I handle these upstart rebels, father. At your age, you shouldn't excert yourself too much.")

Maybe Ishtar nearby Jungby, and Julius nearby Chalphy? That way, there's more of a choice - rush for home base (and deal with the tougher miniboss), or take the long way around (for a somewhat less threatening foe).

5 hours ago, ping said:

Fun fact: If Lana had decided to become an Archer instead of a Priest, her Str would've been 7 points above Faval's, and on par with Finn, Nanna, and Ares. She's also basically as tanky as Faval on the physical side (+1 HP, -1 Def) even in her High Priest class, although she admittedly has an 8-level lead at the start of the fight.

Can't wait for "Archer Lana" to be meta in the inevitable sequel. Alongside "Warrior Brigid" and "Sage Arthur".

5 hours ago, ping said:

: "Quite the sorry excuse for a prince of Grannvale I make, wouldn't you say? It almost feels as if I've tricked the world."

Ooh, imposter syndrome. He just like me fr fr.

5 hours ago, ping said:

And after cleaning up the nearby enemies (XP is XP! ...what do you mean, they'll cap their level anyway?), Seliph kills Morrigan and seizes.

Crazy how similar the statistically-worst sword in the game (Thief's Sword) looks to one of the statistically best swords in the game, Mystletainn. Is Ares here to crit-kill me, or to tickle all my gold away?

[Revier]

6 hours ago, ping said:

And here I thought Genealogy was an EP-focussed game. 

It's a Holy Weapon focused game. 😆

Although tbh Sigurd/Seliph are plenty busted even without their Tyrfing.

6 hours ago, ping said:

To be honest, I didn't expect Sigurd to be exalted to this degree. I appreciate that he's remembered fondly by the people he fought with (for example, Erin telling her children stories about him), but making him into the great hero whose "second coming" (in case somebody still didn't pick up on Seliph's messianic vibes) will deliver mankind from all sins seems more than just a little disproportional. He drove off barbaric invaders, yes, but those aren't connected at all to the current catastrophe, and his following victories all took place outside of Grannvale. When he returned, he was basically tricked by Arvis to help remove his rivals for power, Langbalt and Reptor, before immediately getting murderised himself.

It's a bit weird for sure. But he did annex Verdane and Agustria almost single handedly, and that alone would've won him a lot of reputation, I would imagine. Not to mention his dad himself was very close to the crown prince and had won honors in multiple battles.

The real question here is: how come Reptor and Langbalt made their frame job stick? It seems foolish not to immediately smell foul play with claims like blaming an extremely honorable, venerated man for assassination. Sure, they try to handwave it with Arvis siding with them, but...how much power does Arvis actually have? All we know is that he's the leader of the Royal Guard, and never involved himself in politics before the job. Besides, he is a bastard child of the Velthomer family, though from what we see it doesn't really affect his claim to the leadership of Velthomer or his royal post back then.

5 hours ago, ping said:

(Disclaimer that Fire Emblem isn't really a medieval setting, specifically not when it comes to social standards and values, so "it happened in medieval Europe" isn't really much of a point, anyway)

What setting is it, then? It clearly has the outward looks and trappings of Middle Ages Europe, though there are definitely bits and pieces of jarring presentism, especially in the more recent games.

Edited April 20 by Revier

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Hm... if Travant creates a problem... maybe they could say that the original inhabitants of Southern Thracia were darker-skinned? But when Dainn and Njorun split up, and the Kingdom of Thracia was founded, most of the original inhabitants were driven out. Either leaving overseas, or settling in neighboring Miletos.

Nah, best not. When you have to go justifying stuff like that by building more complex lore that isn't actually designed to interact with the story then it's going to feel contrived. Trading hub with a possible southern continent is a much easier and more natural fit then a major genocide of indigenous people.

1 hour ago, Revier said:

The real question here is: how come Reptor and Langbalt made their frame job stick? It seems foolish not to immediately smell foul play with claims like blaming an extremely honorable, venerated man for assassination. Sure, they try to handwave it with Arvis siding with them, but...how much power does Arvis actually have? All we know is that he's the leader of the Royal Guard, and never involved himself in politics before the job. Besides, he is a bastard child of the Velthomer family, though from what we see it doesn't really affect his claim to the leadership of Velthomer or his royal post back then.

Azelle was the bastard, Alvis is the legitimate child of Victor and Cigyun who were married. Deirdre would be a bastard too, though never expressly identified as such.

Edited April 20 by Jotari

[ping]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Can't wait for "Archer Lana" to be meta in the inevitable sequel. Alongside "Warrior Brigid" and "Sage Arthur".

Warrior Sharlow.

Finally, a worthy successor for Yubello.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ooh, imposter syndrome. He just like me fr fr.

Seliph's almost a character in that specific dialogue.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Crazy how similar the statistically-worst sword in the game (Thief's Sword) looks to one of the statistically best swords in the game, Mystletainn. Is Ares here to crit-kill me, or to tickle all my gold away?

Can't say about Ares, but Dermott is here to tickle you to death and take your money.

5 hours ago, Revier said:

It's a bit weird for sure. But he did annex Verdane and Agustria almost single handedly, and that alone would've won him a lot of reputation, I would imagine. Not to mention his dad himself was very close to the crown prince and had won honors in multiple battles.

Although the conquests of Verdane and Agustria might not have the same positive vibe with the people that it once had. The end result is that Sigurd handed these territories on a silver plate to Arvis, who, as far as the common man knows, may or may not be the antichrist. I do like the explaination that Jotari gave (or relayed), that it's Imperial propaganda backfiring, painting Sigurd as this powerful enemy of the state - but unfortunately, that angle isn't present in the actual game at all, at least thus far.

5 hours ago, Revier said:

What setting is it, then? It clearly has the outward looks and trappings of Middle Ages Europe, though there are definitely bits and pieces of jarring presentism, especially in the more recent games.

Fire Emblem has the aesthetics of Medieval Europe, but outside of feudalism being the mode of production, its settings are very much modern in terms of social norms. That's not meant as a criticism (FE never pretents to be "historical"), but it means that "this is how it worked in 1200 AD" is basically a non-argument when talking about anything FE-related.

 

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, ping said:

Fire Emblem has the aesthetics of Medieval Europe, but outside of feudalism being the mode of production, its settings are very much modern in terms of social norms. That's not meant as a criticism (FE never pretents to be "historical"), but it means that "this is how it worked in 1200 AD" is basically a non-argument when talking about anything FE-related.

It's pretty standard fantasy in that regard. Even historical fiction set in medieval Europe is going to have a largely modern thinking characters, because they'll be written by modern writers.

This came up in an interesting way in a debate I was read in regards to A Song of Ice and Fire, which as a whole does try replicate medieval values more than most other fantasies, but still makes some obvious and self confessed compromises. Anyway the example in question was with the character of Rhaegar and how creepy his relationship with Lyanna is or is meant to be seen. The situation presented by the "protagonists" at the start of the story is that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her. But later revelations guessed by the fanbase and confirmed by the show is that Lyanna was consenting and they had a genuinely love affair with Lyanna doing so in part to escape a fiance she didn't care for. Problem is Lyanna was only 15 while Rhaegar was 23, married with two children. Which if you tried to pull off in the modern day, yeah, that would be kind of fucked up. We see 15 year olds as children. But people who romanticize the incident would cite that such ages were okay for the time period. But problem with that argument is that if we're to judge Rhaegar as a man of his time, then by the standards of his time he absolutely did commit a major crime by stealing another man's betrothed and breaking his marriage vows, Lyanna's opinion on the matter would be considered pretty meaningless, not because she's too young bit because she's a woman. He can only be seen as good if you selectively apply what standards should be viewed through a modern lense and what standards should be viewed through a medieval lense. Which obviously doesn't make sense. But it's something people do a lot when viewing fantasy characters.

Edited April 20 by Jotari

[Revier]

I mean it doesn't take much thinking to realize that abducting women was seen as wrong, no matter the excuse. Even in an ultra patriarchal society, where women would be seen as property, they would still have some value, and "stealing" them would still be seen as a crime. Now add all the bits about couples needing to stick to marriage vows, about extra marital romances being frowned upon, and about such customs being codified in Christianity, a widespread religion that held a lot of influence among most of the populace, and it gets extremely dubious.

Part of the problem is that invoking Middle Ages aesthetics and tying it to your story's setting brings with it a bunch of assumptions, including some unfortunately inaccurate yet widespread ideas of the period. You can attempt to counter them by specifically defining the world even further to concretely dispel them, but that does take up time and space, which may be better served on the core story. Or you could just accept those assumptions and go along with them, or perhaps even play a little with them.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Revier said:

I mean it doesn't take much thinking to realize that abducting women was seen as wrong, no matter the excuse. Even in an ultra patriarchal society, where women would be seen as property, they would still have some value, and "stealing" them would still be seen as a crime. Now add all the bits about couples needing to stick to marriage vows, about extra marital romances being frowned upon, and about such customs being codified in Christianity, a widespread religion that held a lot of influence among most of the populace, and it gets extremely dubious.

Part of the problem is that invoking Middle Ages aesthetics and tying it to your story's setting brings with it a bunch of assumptions, including some unfortunately inaccurate yet widespread ideas of the period. You can attempt to counter them by specifically defining the world even further to concretely dispel them, but that does take up time and space, which may be better served on the core story. Or you could just accept those assumptions and go along with them, or perhaps even play a little with them.

The larger point I was trying to make is that we wouldn't necessarily see it as abduction if a teenager wanted it, but we would see it as rape (or at least rapey) if a teenager wanted it, while for the people of the society it's the inverse. The age is no problem but the "stealing" is tantamount to rape. He should be an immoral guy by either standard. But if you mix standards then can come away looking like a hero who rescued a fair maiden so they could love happily after after (only they don't because it's George R.R Martin so they both die).

[Saint Rubenio]

14 hours ago, ping said:

Shanan was probably called "mister" by a teenager for the first time recently, so that's why he's a bit sensitive here.

He would've needed to talk to someone for that to happen. And we all know he became mute over the past 20 years.

14 hours ago, ping said:

Everybody point and laugh at Faval for his lack of rugged manliness. He's good with children! How embarrassing!

Next you'll tell me he has emotions. Real men aren't like that!!

14 hours ago, ping said:

__

I think I like this John Constipatius. Too bad he has to die.

He's one of the best, I agree. Going out on a high note, because he's the final John Constipatius.

...instead, the final map showcases far, far, far worse portrait reuse.

14 hours ago, ping said:

: "It's you! YOU are Seliph! Gah... If not for you, Blume and Ishtore would still be... You will not escape me!"

Oh, she cared about Blume and Ishtore at least a little bit? Huh. I didn't think she cared about anyone at all.

14 hours ago, ping said:

: "You really are every bit the ingrate your dear mama was!"
: "Hilda! You... What you did to Mother..."
: "Ahh, that takes me back! It's been so long since I've had as much fun as tormenting that eyesore you call 'mama'... Ahahaha!"

Hilda, she called her "Mother" just now.

: "No! You... I won't forgive you..."
: "Why, if I didn't know better, I'd say that's the smart mouth of someone all grown up! What could a brat like you ever hope to do? Good think you miss your mama. You're about to join her in hell!"

Okay but this battle convo is amazing, though. We need more Hildas in this series.

...just, y'know, not how IntSys did it.

14 hours ago, ping said:

: "That makes sense... And I suppose it means we'll be crossing blades with Thracia's dracoknights again."
: "Mm. I'm afraid so. So long as this war continues..."
: "To be honest, Altena, I believe this actually good news."

This is really bad wording, Leif.

14 hours ago, ping said:

__

: "Nngh... So this is how the gods will my fate..."

lol

lmao even

14 hours ago, ping said:

: "Mm, of course. I don't think there's a single corner of Chalphy which I don't recall fondly... Lord Sigurd and Lady Ethlyn... Noish, Alec, and all of my other peers among the young knights of Chalphy..."

---

: "..."

---

: "Every last face there was a friendly one..."

Poor, poor Arden...

14 hours ago, ping said:

That said, Seliph being perceived as a savior isn't entirely baseless, as much as I dislike the trope of the "Chosen One" - but that should come from who his mother is. Deirdre is the one with Naga blood - and since Arvis's claim to power comes from her lineage, that isn't much of a state secret, either. Who exactly Seliph's father is (apart from "not Arvis") doesn't really have to matter in this narrative.

Yes, but see, Deirdre is a woman, so she can't be the important one.

14 hours ago, ping said:

...okay, that does not sound like something DA:O!Morrigan would say.

She'd probably rather die going "fuck you" or something.

14 hours ago, BrightBow said:

You guys didn't deserve Arden.

They didn't, but Arden helped them to the end anyway, because Arden was a true hero.

2 hours ago, ping said:

Warrior Sharlow.

Finally, a worthy successor for Yubello.

Oh that's lovely. Imagine, he just starts bonking people on the head with Hannibal's berserk staff while the man looks on with a tear on his eye like "that's my boy."