OMG it's a tier list

[Lord Raven]

Sothe > Zihark? Their offense seems about equal when Zihark comes in, and Sothe helps out tremendously in the chapters prior. If I recall correctly, Sothe has a more solid defense too, but Zihark seems to shine better as you progress. I want to hear your thoughts on this, I'm not caring all that much but my main backing is the utility for the four chapters prior.

Also, thieving.

Mia > Edward. If we're speaking Hard mode, Edward deserves up mid or something because, not that he sucks, but he's not particularly spectacular. Especially with a lack of WTA. Mia is consistently doubling and can evade pretty decently later.

Perhaps Boyd can be lower due to his early doubling problems. Not sure how much, but high seems too much. As much as I love Boyd.

Mist > Rolf? I can't see why Rolf > Mist; Mist may be frail, but she does mount upon promotion. She can heal prior to promotion, too.

I don't know about you, but volke seems a hell of a lot more useable than Kyza. And Geof a hell of a lot more useable than Rhys.

Nothing much glaring else I care about the list right now. Check back up on you later. I think it's decent so far.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Killer Poleax]

You forgot Tanith (don't worry, I don't use her much either).

[Florete]

Nealuchi's missing.

Gah, I'll get that

Sothe > Zihark? Their offense seems about equal when Zihark comes in, and Sothe helps out tremendously in the chapters prior. If I recall correctly, Sothe has a more solid defense too, but Zihark seems to shine better as you progress. I want to hear your thoughts on this, I'm not caring all that much but my main backing is the utility for the four chapters prior.

Also, thieving.

Mia > Edward. If we're speaking Hard mode, Edward deserves up mid or something because, not that he sucks, but he's not particularly spectacular. Especially with a lack of WTA. Mia is consistently doubling and can evade pretty decently later.

Perhaps Boyd can be lower due to his early doubling problems. Not sure how much, but high seems too much. As much as I love Boyd.

Mist > Rolf? I can't see why Rolf > Mist; Mist may be frail, but she does mount upon promotion. She can heal prior to promotion, too.

I don't know about you, but volke seems a hell of a lot more useable than Kyza. And Geof a hell of a lot more useable than Rhys.

Nothing much glaring else I care about the list right now. Check back up on you later. I think it's decent so far.

Zihark starts great and ends great and has Earth affinity. Sothe generally gets worse. That's the basic idea.

I agree on Edward. I'll see what Ninji says, but I'd like to move him down.

You have a point. I'll think about it.

Rolf grows pretty fast and has amazing late game potential. By the time Mist promoted, her abilities aren't as valuable.

Kyza has availability over Volke more than anything and is decent for his class. Rhys has availability and healing over Geoffrey.

You forgot Tanith (don't worry, I don't use her much either).

Damn, a third one. I added her in mid.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Lord Raven]

Zihark starts great and ends great and has Earth affinity. Sothe generally gets worse. That's the basic idea.

Fair point, that's the part I was contemplating. I'll come up with something if I can, but right now I can definitely see why Zihark > Sothe.

Rolf grows pretty fast and has amazing late game potential. By the time Mist promoted, her abilities aren't as valuable.

This is also true, but the utility still exists. Rolf is still a pain to use, too.

Kyza has availability over Volke more than anything and is decent for his class. Rhys has availability and healing over Geoffrey.

Geoffrey will still sustain a level lead. That's my main argument. His Paragon ability will allow him to hit around Level 17 or 18 by the end of part II and he could potentially promote by the time you get him in Part III, if not he still has a couple chapters.

Kyza vs Volke I don't care about, but "decent for his class" doesn't matter. (note the bolded part). Kyza isn't doing that hot, Volke is doing somewhat well (although average in relative terms; I still wouldn't put him below Kyza).

[Killer Poleax]

I haven't played hard mode yet so I'm just wondering, in early part 3, how many rounds does it take Boyd to kill most enemies? If it's three, I'd move him to upper mid. If it's two, he might be okay where he is cause there aren't many other GMs that can oneround. He also starts with a killer axe so he has a chance to one round even if its a small one.

I'd move Gatrie a few spaces up. He might have doubling problems but he's an awesome tank. But considering who he's under, he might be okay where he is. Why is Soren higher than Nephenee? Just wondering.

Edited December 21, 2008 by KSFF2150

[Lord Raven]

Three if I recall correctly.

[Florete]

This is also true, but the utility still exists. Rolf is still a pain to use, too.

Geoffrey will still sustain a level lead. That's my main argument. His Paragon ability will allow him to hit around Level 17 or 18 by the end of part II and he could potentially promote by the time you get him in Part III, if not he still has a couple chapters.

Kyza vs Volke I don't care about, but "decent for his class" doesn't matter. (note the bolded part). Kyza isn't doing that hot, Volke is doing somewhat well (although average in relative terms; I still wouldn't put him below Kyza).

Rolf generally turns out the best of the Marksmen. I believe that's the basic argument but I can see Mist > Rolf

That's some high levels you're giving him. He isn't gaining any levels in part 2 and only one or two in part 3, even with Paragon. And he only has 1 part 3 chapter and 1 part 4 chapter before endgame.

I don't think I quite explained that right. Kyza has availability, pretty evened out growths and good durability. Volke is only available for 6 maps uses the worst weapon type, though I'll consider switching them.

haven't played hard mode yet so I'm just wondering, in early part 3, how many rounds does it take Boyd to kill most enemies? If it's three, I'd move him to upper mid. If it's two, he might be okay where he is cause there aren't many other GMs that can oneround. He also starts with a killer axe so he has a chance to one round even if its a small one.

I'd move Gatrie a few spaces up. He might have doubling problems but he's an awesome tank. But considering who he's under, he might be okay where he is. Why is Soren higher than Nephenee?

yeah, I might have to move Boyd down a bit.

Gatrie is good, but not amazing enough to be too much higher. Soren likely has a level lead and uses magic, though I'm thinking of moving him down.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Lord Raven]

That's some high levels you're giving him. He isn't gaining any levels in part 2 and only one or two in part 3, even with Paragon. And he only has 1 part 3 chapter and 1 part 4 chapter before endgame.

lol, I forgot about that last one. Disregard it.

I can see him gaining a level in Part 2, since I forgot how low everything was.

I can somewhat see Rhys > Geoffrey now. tell you if anything comes to mind

the main thing I can see going for soren is how quickly he can max out magic and skill and res so you can jack his speed... other than that, he's fine where he is

I like the idea of Oscar below Rafiel because of his availability in tandem with Ike and his support with Ike (an earth x earth support that lasts a very long time is really cool, especially on a good unit and an above average mounted unit). Oscar for high tier ideally. maybe moving leanne up (below rafiel) and Oscar below Leanne is cool too

Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

Moved Boyd and Edward down, Oscar and Leanne up.

[Killer Poleax]

It looks good from where I'm sitting. Good job.

[Lord Raven]

oh, there's also kieran... whose availability is larger than Geoffrey's and he has mount, and str/def to take advantage of even if he has problems with doubling... surely it's not lower mid material... bottom of upper mid though.

and lyle tiers are for people who have nothing better to do come winter break.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

oh, there's also kieran... whose availability is larger than Geoffrey's and he has mount, and str/def to take advantage of even if he has problems with doubling... surely it's not lower mid material... bottom of upper mid though.

Yeah, you have a point. I'll move him up.

You know, Zihark's rather low strength growth is all that's keeping him out of top now that I think about it. If he had 10-15% more strength, I'd put him up there right under Reyson.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Florete]

After seeing Nolan rape in 3-6 with Beastfoe and Tarvos/Bowgun I'm thinking about moving him up a few spaces. Perhaps just under Sothe.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Vykan12]

Top (3)

Haar

Ike

Reyson

Reyson’s the best character in the game. Even if he has less availability than Haar and Ike, his quad vigoring is just leagues beyond what any individual unit could ever do. If you remove Haar from your team you still have Titania + the hawks with high mobility and plenty of other competent fighters. Without Reyson, your turn count is guaranteed to go up, you lose BEXP, you have less player phase flexibility, etc.

High (11)

Zihark

Sothe

Titania

Shinon

Nolan

Nailah

Tibarn

Mia

Rafiel

Leanne

Oscar

Hmm where do I begin? I love Zihark to bits but you’ve got him overrated quite a bit. Sure he’s good in the part 1 DB chapters but he also shows up in the second half of part 1 when you’re being fed tons of h3x units like Muarim and Tauroneo, so he’s never really the best aside from those 3 part 3 chapters, but even then it’s debatable vs Volug.

Sothe is great but I wouldn’t put him above Titania, seeing as she’s one of your best part 4 characters (lol at killing stuff in 4-4 unsupported with hand axes).

Nolan’s a bit too high, he can’t double consistently until part 4, so he should be closer to Aran at least.

Oh, and Tibarn and Naesala aren’t separated by a whole tier. Sure Tibarn has an extra point of mobility and better offence, but most of that is overkill and the only time Naesala looks demonstrably worse is in 4-E(1) if he still has S strike. Even then, assigning him skills can easily alleviate that issue and there’s only so many skills you can pass around 10-12 units.

Upper Middle (14)

Boyd

Edward

Jill

Soren

Laura

Aran

Nephenee

Elincia

Volug

Ulki

Janaff

Ranulf

Gatrie

Naesala

Janaff and Ulki are at least top 10, 34-36 base spd and skl is ridiculous, especially for when they join, then they have that awesome mobility and with supports and eventual strike level gains, their offence never lets up. Though, even if it does, adept/tear is ~80% chance of a dead enemy at neutral bio.

Elincia should also be higher, being a mobile healer with 50+% growth rates in every stat and an unlimited use 15 MT brave sword is quite incredible.

Edward being in upper mid is a joke. His durability is pathetic and he’ll be underlevelled a good portion of the game, so he has to compensate for a lot of suck before he becomes average in part 4.

Volug is too low, he’s basically top 3 in the DB and only falters later in part 4, but even then he has earth affinity so at least he can be an avo tank.

Ranulf needs to drop a little. He doesn’t ORKO much without adept (granted he has 30 base spd), plus pretty hefty transform issues and he ain’t getting rend for a while unless you want to BEXP him 4 levels immediately.

Gatrie is easily better than Boyd. I have no idea why Boyd is so high, he can’t even double for half his availability.

Soren also seems a bit high. His mobility is weak, as is his starting performance, plus the only way to make him worth anything (BEXP ram at 20/10 then crown when he caps his spd) means he has to take up a lot of resources to ORKO stuff and be able to heal, which isn’t so special when you have 2-3 other people who can already do that, and the team’s overall durability is quite impressive.

Middle (15)

Micaiah

Marcia

Rolf

Mist

Brom

Tanith

Skrimir

Caineghis

Giffca

Heather

Ilyana

Mordecai

Calill

Tauroneo

Kieran

Wow at Micaiah only being middle. Thani makes her your best bosskiller in the earlygame and sacrifice-wrath makes her spd issues matter significantly less, so she shouldn’t be far from someone like Laura.

I don’t see how Brom could beat the lions, or how Heather stealing everything in part 3 with the bowgun-disarm-steal combo could only reach mid. Ilyana certainly isn’t higher than Mordy, he has 1.5x her mobility and is the most durable unit in part 3 aside from maybe nullify Haar, which is easily beating Ilyana’s lame under-leveledness everywhere she goes. Plus, even if you favored her into oblivion, her spd and mag will always fail, and most likely her accuracy too.

Geoffrey is the best CRK and I dunno how you could put Calill > Kieran aside from maybe endgame merits, which they’re never reaching since their horrific availability stunts any opportunity they have to be used in the long term.

Oh, and Tanith’s too high. Yes, she’s mobile and has earth affinity, but she also has crappy bases, joining time and base level, so she needs a lot of work to make good. I don’t see how she could beat the w1n that the lions offer when she only has 4 mediocre chapters over them (in Skrimir’s case, 2).

Lower Middle (7)

Rhys

Geoffrey

Makalov

Pelleas

Lucia

Leonardo

Kyza

Rhys should be in the same tier as Mist, they basically serve the same function throughout part 3 until Mist gains a mount, but even that’s going to take some time since you can’t crown her.

Low (13)

Volke

Bastian

Stefan

Danved

Tormod

Muarim

Vika

Kurthnaga

Sigrun

Nealuchi

Oliver

Sanaki

Lethe

Volke, Stefan and Muarim are all better than the CRKs. Kurth > Vika and Nealuchi > Sigrun.

Bottom (9)

Astrid

Meg

Nasir

Renning

Ena

Fiona

Lyre

Lehran

Gareth

Holy jesus, Nasir is not bottom tier. White tide is the only reason anyone who’s not a royal can double auras in 4-E(5), that’s certainly more than whatever Pelleas would offer you. Gareth is cool too, but more restrictive to use since he needs to be standing on res tiles popping spirit water to ward off attention from the spirits. Also, Lehran is not worse than Lyre, he should at least be above Oliver. You get him for free, he can do 40-50 damage to auras with the Balbeirth and he gives you an extra Ashera staff/fortify/hammerne user, which means a nice durability boon for your team.

After seeing Nolan rape in 3-6 with Beastfoe and Tarvos/Bowgun I'm thinking about moving him up a few spaces. Perhaps just under Sothe.

That's irrelevant since anyone with good durability can use that skill effectively. Even Leo could use it so long as you offer him protection.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Vykan12

[Vykan12]

Some other stuff I saw.

You know, Zihark's rather low strength growth is all that's keeping him out of top now that I think about it. If he had 10-15% more strength, I'd put him up there right under Reyson.

What are you talking about? His strength is not an issue in part 1, and you can BEXP ram him at 20/12 (when he caps spd and skl and is on the verge of capping res) to max out his tier 2 str. That would put him at the same str as a 20/20/1 Mia or Edward, and just as their superior str growth kicks in, it’s time to do more BEXP ramming, which generally happens sooner in tier 3 than in tier 2. All to say, the periods in which Zihark has poor str are easily minimized.

Rolf generally turns out the best of the Marksmen. I believe that's the basic argument but I can see Mist > Rolf

No, Shinon is always the best marksman, the only thing Rolf ever wins is strength but his cap always withholds him from letting his 75% str growth be broken.

haven't played hard mode yet so I'm just wondering, in early part 3, how many rounds does it take Boyd to kill most enemies? If it's three, I'd move him to upper mid. If it's two, he might be okay where he is cause there aren't many other GMs that can oneround. He also starts with a killer axe so he has a chance to one round even if its a small one.

Alternatively, you could give the killer axe to Titania or save it for someone else to use later on so I don’t see how that’s relevant.

I'd move Gatrie a few spaces up. He might have doubling problems but he's an awesome tank. But considering who he's under, he might be okay where he is. Why is Soren higher than Nephenee? Just wondering.

Gatrie’s doubling problems won’t last long if you crown him early on. 60% spd growth on a general is lulz.

Geoffrey will still sustain a level lead. That's my main argument. His Paragon ability will allow him to hit around Level 17 or 18 by the end of part II and he could potentially promote by the time you get him in Part III, if not he still has a couple chapters.

Lolwut? Paragon is removable in this game, hence part of the reason why Astrid sucks now. Geoffrey’s paragon doesn’t really help him much in 2-3 since he gains 2 exp per kill instead of 1 and he has to remove it in 3-9 so that your GMs can use it from 3-11 onwards.

I don't feel like reading back any further.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Vykan12

[Mekkah]

One thing I noticed is "this part is easy so it doesn't matter as much". This is false. Difficulty of a certain part has no bearing on someone's strength. It's about how good you are relatively to the team. If we had two Ziharks, and we'd put one in 3-P, and one in 1-P, 1-P Zihark would be better. Not because it's easier, but because Zihark >>>>>>>>>> Eddie, Micaiah and Leonardo, while Ike, Titania, Shinon and Gatrie do kind of provide competition to say the least.

Also, "best Sage", "like a Marshall with more Mov", "best Marksman" hold no water. Tier list making involves comparing everyone to everyone, not one dude with low Spd to another or something.

[La Yodha Stasella]

why Giffca middle? I always thought of him as a lower tier

[Vykan12]

That all depends on how you value availability, but Giffca will always be very close to Caneighis in the list since their stats are more or less identical, and Giffca has a better chance of capping spd and thus being able to double auras without Nasir despite having to use gems or stones/grass.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Vykan12

[Wisper]

Rolf up to high mid, Edward, Mist and Nephenee WAY down.

I'm assuming this a hard mode tier list.

[_____]

Reyson’s the best character in the game. Even if he has less availability than Haar and Ike, his quad vigoring is just leagues beyond what any individual unit could ever do. If you remove Haar from your team you still have Titania + the hawks with high mobility and plenty of other competent fighters. Without Reyson, your turn count is guaranteed to go up, you lose BEXP, you have less player phase flexibility, etc.

Hmm where do I begin? I love Zihark to bits but you’ve got him overrated quite a bit. Sure he’s good in the part 1 DB chapters but he also shows up in the second half of part 1 when you’re being fed tons of h3x units like Muarim and Tauroneo, so he’s never really the best aside from those 3 part 3 chapters, but even then it’s debatable vs Volug.

Sothe is great but I wouldn’t put him above Titania, seeing as she’s one of your best part 4 characters (lol at killing stuff in 4-4 unsupported with hand axes).

It may just be me being biased, but I think Reyson's abilities are overrated. You can only refresh 1 unit before transforming, and many times, units aren't able to be refreshed because they're either out of reach or refreshing them would put said Heron in harm's way. We all know that Reyson's going to be stuck with Vigor and Bliss for a while. Bliss is a bit useless considering that Biorhythms aren't game-breaking, and he can't use his awesome 4 space Vigoring until he transforms. He can use Olivi Grass or a Laguz Stone to help, but then he'd be wasting a turn while your other units move ahead. Add fail durability into the mix, and I don't think he's the best character in the game.

Zihark starts great, ends great, is available for all of the DB chapters after Chapter 5, has a h4x Earth affinity, and he's making better use of the experience you give him than, say, Muarim, who leaves until the end of the game. He's also able to join the Greil Mercenaries for extra experience, and he's still doing better than more than half of your team.

Sothe is one of your best characters in Part 1 and in Part 3. Paraphrasing off of what Mekkah said, Part 1 Sothe >>>> Part 1 Edward, Micaiah, Leonardo, Nolan, Laura, Ilyana, Meg, Fiona, and Jill. Titania has some steady competition in the forms of Ike, Gatrie, Shinon, and Oscar.

Since your post is lolwtfhuge and I'm tired, I'll just respond to the rest later.

[Vykan12]

It may just be me being biased, but I think Reyson's abilities are overrated. You can only refresh 1 unit before transforming, and many times, units aren't able to be refreshed because they're either out of reach or refreshing them would put said Heron in harm's way.

He can transform on the first turn thanks to laguz stones (you get a ton of 'em and he's the best laguz to use it on) and he's still vigoring like crazy even when having to take the occasional turn to pop some addictive olivi grass.

We all know that Reyson's going to be stuck with Vigor and Bliss for a while.

Vigor is all he needs. Wtfawesum at having an extra Tibarn, Naesala, Haar and Jill attack every turn on 4-E, or Haar/Titania/Mist/Janaff on 3-11, etc etc. He takes up one unit slot to give you 3-4 more player phase attacks, which is about as efficient as you can get.

Zihark starts great, ends great, is available for all of the DB chapters after Chapter 5, has a h4x Earth affinity, and he's making better use of the experience you give him than, say, Muarim, who leaves until the end of the game. He's also able to join the Greil Mercenaries for extra experience, and he's still doing better than more than half of your team.

He's still going to be under-levelled in part 4, in fact he'll be lucky to even hit trueblade without BEXP. That's not going to make him outperform a GM in part 4 and like I said, his part 1 is overrated considering how many pre-promos you get fed every chapter after 1-4.

Sothe is one of your best characters in Part 1 and in Part 3. Paraphrasing off of what Mekkah said, Part 1 Sothe >>>> Part 1 Edward, Micaiah, Leonardo, Nolan, Laura, Ilyana, Meg, Fiona, and Jill. Titania has some steady competition in the forms of Ike, Gatrie, Shinon, and Oscar.

How does Sothe not have competition? Volug and Zihark for a while, then all those pre-promo monsters I mentioned earlier (lol at Sothe beating the BK or Nailah in 1-E for instance) and after part 4 he gets to be below average. Having the beastkiller is nice for 3-6 and 3-13, but getting 2HKOed by tigers at reasonably large hit rates really hurts him, then you have to account for his fail caps + weapon type making him horrible in the later chapters of the game.

[riariadne]

rennings not that bad... come on, worse than MEG?

[Saaji]

He's still going to be under-levelled in part 4, in fact he'll be lucky to even hit trueblade without BEXP. That's not going to make him outperform a GM in part 4 and like I said, his part 1 is overrated considering how many pre-promos you get fed every chapter after 1-4..

Zihark should be one of your higher leveled DB members and if you not trying to level them all up for end game I think you should be able to compete with most of the GM members sure he wont be Ike, Haar, Titania, Shinion levels but he'll probably in that level grouping right below them.

[Mekkah]

rennings not that bad... come on, worse than MEG?

Again it all depends on the value of availability. Meg can contribute to your team after climbing out of her huge hole, and perhaps compensate for her suck before Renning even shows up.

[_____]

He can transform on the first turn thanks to laguz stones (you get a ton of 'em and he's the best laguz to use it on) and he's still vigoring like crazy even when having to take the occasional turn to pop some addictive olivi grass.

Vigor is all he needs. Wtfawesum at having an extra Tibarn, Naesala, Haar and Jill attack every turn on 4-E, or Haar/Titania/Mist/Janaff on 3-11, etc etc. He takes up one unit slot to give you 3-4 more player phase attacks, which is about as efficient as you can get.

He's still going to be under-levelled in part 4, in fact he'll be lucky to even hit trueblade without BEXP. That's not going to make him outperform a GM in part 4 and like I said, his part 1 is overrated considering how many pre-promos you get fed every chapter after 1-4.

How does Sothe not have competition? Volug and Zihark for a while, then all those pre-promo monsters I mentioned earlier (lol at Sothe beating the BK or Nailah in 1-E for instance) and after part 4 he gets to be below average. Having the beastkiller is nice for 3-6 and 3-13, but getting 2HKOed by tigers at reasonably large hit rates really hurts him, then you have to account for his fail caps + weapon type making him horrible in the later chapters of the game.

Alright, I see your point. Fox will put him at the top when she gets on.

How do you figure? He's gaining a fair amount of experience in Part 1, and then he's going to be one of your main attacking units in Part 3. The Part 3 DB Chapters are comprised of "Throw 100 enemies at the person and get them slaughtered", which is an experience fountain. He may not hit Trueblade before Part 4, but he'll be damn near it. You make it sound like people are soloing chapters with those "pre-promo monsters", which is ludicrous. I'm not going to say "loldestealdaexp" because that's a stupid arguement, but it's more likely that 1 or 2 of those "pre-promo monsters" will be used in tight spots. Also, unlike those "pre-promo monsters", Zihark has either:

a.) Great Availability

b.) Great Endgame

c.) H4x affinity

d.) All of the Above

Ah, we're back to that whole "pre-promote monster" arguement, aren't we? Sothe, unlike Tauroneo, the BK, or Nailah, is available for 8 of Part 1's chapters. The BK's in 2, Nailah's in 2, and Tauroneo is in 1. Sothe's also more useful than those units because of his thieving utility. He can actually gain a fairly decent amount of levels in Part 1 due to stealing vulneries and other knick-knacks. An automatic Micaiah A support is also quite helpful. It helps him dodge those pesky tigers in Part 3, and Micaiah can heal him afterwards if he even was hit. The only "pre-promo monster" you have left is Tauroneo in 3-12 and 3-13, who's not quite the invincible sheild he used to be. He's still useful in Part 4 because he can move through the desert chapter much quicker than many of your other units. Granted, you still have Naesala, but who's going to grab those delicious items like the Dragonfoe scroll, which instantly makes Endgame-3 lol, and the Laguz Gem, allowing you to finally have a fully transformed Laguz in the endgame (say, Janaff or Ulki?) without having Wildheart equipped, which is a pretty bad skill. He's not terrible in the Endgame. He can still fight decently. He's not one-rounding Generals in 4-E-1, but 2-rounding Archers and Mages is not out of the question.

rennings not that bad... come on, worse than MEG?

He's got 5 chapters of fail. Meg at least can turn decent later on.