Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

Lalum and Elphin were next to each other.

Zealot was right next to, either above or below Treck and Noah.

I think I made it so with the dancers.

I don't recall Zealot climbing this high rapidly, but I could easily see him above those two, considering how long it takes them just to catch up to him, his growths aren't TOTAL blow (they're still bad, just not terrible), he severely outranks them weapon-wise, great out the box, with him being this high the two are now viable support partners to make a great triangle which practically solves all his problems save AS...

Edited June 10, 2009 by Kuja

[Mekkah]

Zealot is a judgement call in himself, since his curve throughout the game isn't like anyone else. This is something I just thought up, so bear with me.

First, there's type 1. They start out at a normal level, grow throughout the game, and generally are strong when everyone is, and "weak" when everyone is. They are sometimes called "growth units". A good example would be Alan/Lance...or an even better one is Lot.

Then there's type 2. These units start out on par with your team if not slightly better, and stay that way throughout the rest of the game. Examples include Echidna and Percival. The main difference between this one and type 1 is that type 2 is low-maintenance.

And finally type 3. Units that are strong throughout a limited period of time, and crappy for the rest. Marcus, Zealot, Klein, generally prepromotes fall under this.

And I supose there's type 4, which are units that join underleveled, so usually by the time they are strong, so is everyone else, which doesn't help when compensating for their period of suck. See Zeis, Hugh, Lilina, Oujay...

I suppose this is a bit like archetypes, except more clearly defined. Anyway, most of the cast is type 1 or type 4. Direct comparisons are, in their cases, meaningless, since there is clear winners on either part of the game, but which part of the game is longer and has more weight is the point of discussion. Zealot is clearly better than Noah/Treck at jointime, and clearly worse when they both promote.

Zealot has going for him that he can be dumped when he is no longer good, so you always get a positive out of him. Noah/Treck have to work off their ass to get out of their "debt", and when they are finally strong, so is the rest of your team. On the other hand, the maps where Zealot is losing, he is losing badly, and they are also larger maps with more enemies, and Treck/Noah are also handing out support bonuses for a longer time.

EDIT: Oh, and put Marcus above Zealot for sure. His Ch1-Ch7 utility over Zealot way larger than any kind of combat edge Zealot has for the rest of it.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Mekkah

[grandjackal]

Zealot is a judgement call in himself, since his curve throughout the game isn't like anyone else. This is something I just thought up, so bear with me.

First, there's type 1. They start out at a normal level, grow throughout the game, and generally are strong when everyone is, and "weak" when everyone is. They are sometimes called "growth units". A good example would be Alan/Lance...or an even better one is Lot.

Then there's type 2. These units start out on par with your team if not slightly better, and stay that way throughout the rest of the game. Examples include Echidna and Percival. The main difference between this one and type 1 is that type 2 is low-maintenance.

And finally type 3. Units that are strong throughout a limited period of time, and crappy for the rest. Marcus, Zealot, Klein, generally prepromotes fall under this.

And I supose there's type 4, which are units that join underleveled, so usually by the time they are strong, so is everyone else, which doesn't help when compensating for their period of suck. See Zeis, Hugh, Lilina, Oujay...

I suppose this is a bit like archetypes, except more clearly defined. Anyway, most of the cast is type 1 or type 4. Direct comparisons are, in their cases, meaningless, since there is clear winners on either part of the game, but which part of the game is longer and has more weight is the point of discussion. Zealot is clearly better than Noah/Treck at jointime, and clearly worse when they both promote.

Zealot has going for him that he can be dumped when he is no longer good, so you always get a positive out of him. Noah/Treck have to work off their ass to get out of their "debt", and when they are finally strong, so is the rest of your team. On the other hand, the maps where Zealot is losing, he is losing badly, and they are also larger maps with more enemies, and Treck/Noah are also handing out support bonuses for a longer time.

EDIT: Oh, and put Marcus above Zealot for sure. His Ch1-Ch7 utility over Zealot way larger than any kind of combat edge Zealot has for the rest of it.

No, actually they aren't THAT much better than him at base when they promote. They got a couple points in strength and HP at best, while on the other hand Zealot's still got his massive wtf weapon level lead, and has the ability to use good axes by then. He's generally got the speed to at least avoid being doubled, but the benefit he has is that he's still pretty damn tough and has all around weapon control. They only become better quite a bit later into the game, and I can tell you it ain't about a noticeable speed lead either. I REALLY do think Zealot could go higher. Go check the averages. Check the stats. They aren't doubling anything he isn't.

As for Marcus, he has many problems. He is pretty damn awesome early on, but his growths are worse, noticeably worse bases, next to no support options...He really is pointless past earlygame.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Kuja

[Quasar]

Let's see. I think Percival was right below Miledy and Juno wasn't below Fa if I remember correctly. Even Wendy below her seems questionable to me but not sure.

About Marcus: I'm not sure how you can say he doesn't have supports. He doesn't if you don't give them to him but he does have decent choices. He can form a triangle with two of Alan/Lance/Roy, sure, they might prefer to hang by themselves and sure if you dump him eventually it might be a waste but I don't think you can just say he'll never get any of them. Using the same logic you might as well give him Lilina and Wolt as you'll be dumping them too for being horrible.

Marcus is doing something special around arguably the hardest chapters in game - being your best unit. And having the best lance. Zealot doesn't get the same privilege as you already have Marcus being awesome, while in lesser extent at that point.

Edit: You've got Lalum twice there by the way.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Quasar

[grandjackal]

Let's see. I think Percival was right below Miledy and Juno wasn't below Fa if I remember correctly. Even Wendy below her seems questionable to me but not sure.

Was discussed with Fa's uses, and her haxing up mamkutes if we bother using her is better than Juno being a failboat. How you even think Wendy is better, even when she needs a knight's crest just to keep failing anyways, is beyond me.

As forPercival, Miledy and high tier in general, will see what red fox's memory says, since she argued it last.

About Marcus: I'm not sure how you can say he doesn't have supports. He doesn't if you don't give them to him but he does have decent choices. He can form a triangle with two of Alan/Lance/Roy, sure, they might prefer to hang by themselves and sure if you dump him eventually it might be a waste but I don't think you can just say he'll never get any of them. Using the same logic you might as well give him Lilina and Wolt as you'll be dumping them too for being horrible.

Marcus is doing something special around arguably the hardest chapters in game - being your best unit. And having the best lance. Zealot doesn't get the same privilege as you already have Marcus being awesome, while in lesser extent at that point.

That's the thing, they support eachother for the best support triangle in the game. How you'd interrupt this is just not gonna happen. No matter what, all three of them have a better affinity, they just do not want Marcus. As for Lillina and Wolt...His affinity does not help their problems. Wolt wants offense, not defense. It's practically useless for an archer, who shouldn't get attacked anyways. As for Lillina, it does not help her durability nearly enough. Then consider the move difference, the time it takes to build them up, Lillina's jointime, the fact they're incredibly sucky units as is. He can have them, but he's not benefitting them much, and they do not help his main problem, his terrible growths and bases. He is a unit who is doomed to be useless later.

Zealot gets a different privelage, being actually usable as the game goes on as an actually viable unit, and better support options he all around benefits. Being useful for logner is better than just being great for a period of time, not that Zealot isn't awesome out the box.

[Quasar]

How you even think Wendy is better, even when she needs a knight's crest just to keep failing anyways, is beyond me.

Very well, allow me to elaborate and open the door to the insanity that is the depths of my mind. Seven levels of availability advantage to build her levels and supports. When Fa joins Wendy should be able to avoid ORKO and if that's not the case for promoted opponents or so you can still keep throwing Javelins and that's doing more than Fa already. More than 30 Javelins too, mind you. Fa is only super effective against Mamkutes anyway and there's pretty much one chapter where it's arguably useful to have a character effective against Mamkutes. Wendy is shit. Piss-poor. Horrible. If Fa is better, of which I'm not yet convinced, then not by much and I have no idea how you seem to think they're so far apart.

As forPercival, Miledy and high tier in general, will see what red fox's memory says, since she argued it last.

Fair enough for the rest but I'm 100% sure of Miredy's position at least. It's kind of hard to forget trying to argue Miredy to rise from top of Top to bottom of High while not jumping over anyone.

That's the thing, they support eachother for the best support triangle in the game. How you'd interrupt this is just not gonna happen. No matter what, all three of them have a better affinity, they just do not want Marcus.

Roy should want Marcus for Ice's defensive advantages. He won't be a combat god anyway and he really needs survivability. Yeah, it's one of the best support triangles in the game at least but is it enough a reason to say they will never, ever, support anyone else? And even if you'd argue that Marcus can still get the single leftover support there, while admittably it's not helping much.

As for Lillina and Wolt...His affinity does not help their problems. Wolt wants offense, not defense. It's practically useless for an archer, who shouldn't get attacked anyways. As for Lillina, it does not help her durability nearly enough. Then consider the move difference, the time it takes to build them up, Lillina's jointime, the fact they're incredibly sucky units as is. He can have them, but he's not benefitting them much, and they do not help his main problem, his terrible growths and bases. He is a unit who is doomed to be useless later.

Offense>Defense for Wolt, but defense still helps anyone, unless you can say your archer never gets counterattacked. Which means you'll never be attacking, say, magic users or people with 2 range weapons equipped. This is also completely ignoring the human mistakes of letting one slip, shitty RNG luck with some enemies surviving and you not being able to finish them all off etc.

Zealot gets a different privelage, being actually usable as the game goes on as an actually viable unit, and better support options he all around benefits. Being useful for logner is better than just being great for a period of time, not that Zealot isn't awesome out the box.

He has better bases but the growths definitely aren't a landslide in Zealot's favor by any means. Marcus should be level 3 or so by Ch7. Difference at join for Zealot: +1.8HP, +0.5 STR, lower SKL and LCK but it doesn't really matter that much, +2 DEF and -1 RES. I'm not sure how I can fairly argue the support options so I'll leave them to someone else, I'm just too tempted to say Tate is unusable while Treck and especially Noah have better options, all of which are in my opinion extremely poor arguments.

[dondon151]

Treck doesn't have anyone to support other than Noah and Noah has Fir if she's in play. Tate is also usable and such. Zealot does have viable support options, but they're not top tier material.

[Mekkah]

Treck doesn't have anyone to support other than Noah and Noah has Fir if she's in play.

Technically, he has Miledy and Gonzales who would commit a murder just to support with someone with a fucking Wind affinity (their options are that bad). It's just 1+1, so they won't be in play for long...but they exist. Kind of.

[Shadow Mir]

Very well, allow me to elaborate and open the door to the insanity that is the depths of my mind. Seven levels of availability advantage to build her levels and supports. When Fa joins Wendy should be able to avoid ORKO and if that's not the case for promoted opponents or so you can still keep throwing Javelins and that's doing more than Fa already. More than 30 Javelins too, mind you. Fa is only super effective against Mamkutes anyway and there's pretty much one chapter where it's arguably useful to have a character effective against Mamkutes. Wendy is shit. Piss-poor. Horrible. If Fa is better, of which I'm not yet convinced, then not by much and I have no idea how you seem to think they're so far apart.

But Wendy starts at level 1 unpromoted, and is failing massively. Having her use Javelins? OK, except now she has crap for hit, meaning that if she even wants to have a reliable chance of hitting, she's taking a counter. Oh, and triangle attack? That isn't much help. Her supports suck, as well.

[dondon151]

Technically, he has Miledy and Gonzales who would commit a murder just to support with someone with a fucking Wind affinity (their options are that bad). It's just 1+1, so they won't be in play for long...but they exist. Kind of.

Well... who seriously considers 1 +1 options... you have to try really hard to get those pairings.

[Quasar]

But Wendy starts at level 1 unpromoted, and is failing massively. Having her use Javelins? OK, except now she has crap for hit, meaning that if she even wants to have a reliable chance of hitting, she's taking a counter. Oh, and triangle attack? That isn't much help. Her supports suck, as well.

Okay. What about Fa's situation? Starting at 1, no access to 2 range, eating a counter, no triangle attack and all of this later in game.

How exactly do Wendy's supports suck? Wendy's Fire, OJ for one would marry her for that and at least all her supports are +2 per turn. I might be obsessed with triangles but you can form one with Wendy+OJ/Boris/Barth/Lilina(/Astohl too I guess). Those Ostians sure like each other.

I'm fine with Fa>Wendy in any case as I never said Wendy should definitely go above her, was just trying to explain how I didn't see them so far apart.

[Shadow Mir]

Okay. What about Fa's situation? Starting at 1, no access to 2 range, eating a counter, no triangle attack and all of this later in game.

How exactly do Wendy's supports suck? Wendy's Fire, OJ for one would marry her for that and at least all her supports are +2 per turn. I might be obsessed with triangles but you can form one with Wendy+OJ/Boris/Barth/Lilina(/Astohl too I guess). Those Ostians sure like each other.

I'm fine with Fa>Wendy in any case as I never said Wendy should definitely go above her, was just trying to explain how I didn't see them so far apart.

Wendy's been a detrimenty to your party for all that time that Fae hasn't. And triangle attack? You're kidding me if you think it's efficient to field all three knights and keep them together just for a guaranteed critical hit (especially if failboats such as Wendy and Barth are being discussed). That is, unless you think that Yunno should get out of bottom tier thanks to the triangle attack, in which case all i can say is LOL.

[grandjackal]

Wendy's been a detrimenty to your party for all that time that Fae hasn't. And triangle attack? You're kidding me if you think it's efficient to field all three knights and keep them together just for a guaranteed critical hit (especially if failboats such as Wendy and Barth are being discussed). That is, unless you think that Yunno should get out of bottom tier thanks to the triangle attack, in which case all i can say is LOL.

By your logic, Juno should top the tier anyways because she's fucking up your team for the least bit of time.

Quasar makes a point though, Wendy sucks balls, but she at least reaches a point where she's being able to not die and not be useless like Fa has. Fa also gets closer and closer to uselessness the more she's used, while Wendy sucks less and less the more she's used. Wendy's problem is not her growths, but rather her utterly shitty base stats, her incredibly shitty class, and her incredibly shitty supports. But at least she can grow to be a not as useless stand alone unit, while Fa can only suck. Fa would suck less if her stone lasted longer, but fuck that. We can at least baby Wendy, while we risk Fa being useless just from using her.

Wendy above Fa.

[Florete]

Whatever happened to Sophia>Wendy?

[Shadow Mir]

Quasar makes a point though, Wendy sucks balls, but she at least reaches a point where she's being able to not die and not be useless like Fa has. Fa also gets closer and closer to uselessness the more she's used, while Wendy sucks less and less the more she's used. Wendy's problem is not her growths, but rather her utterly shitty base stats, her incredibly shitty class, and her incredibly shitty supports. But at least she can grow to be a not as useless stand alone unit, while Fa can only suck. Fa would suck less if her stone lasted longer, but fuck that. We can at least baby Wendy, while we risk Fa being useless just from using her.

Wendy above Fa.

...I suppose you have a point there.

[grandjackal]

Whatever happened to Sophia>Wendy?

Was the fault of time compression.

'Tis fixed now, by the powers of Kuja~<3

[dondon151]

Quasar makes a point though, Wendy sucks balls, but she at least reaches a point where she's being able to not die and not be useless like Fa has.

Unless you try really hard to give Wendy EXP, she won't reach that point. What's best for Wendy is not what's best for the team; feeding her kills is negative utility that -might- be made up later.

Fa also gets closer and closer to uselessness the more she's used, while Wendy sucks less and less the more she's used.

Again, I disagree, if only because your wording is loaded. The more Fa uses her dragonstone, the closer she gets to uselessness, yet she also becomes more useful as long as there are still uses left on her dragonstone. I don't see how Fa's uselessness later on outweighs Wendy's immediate uselessness.

Wendy's problem is not her growths, but rather her utterly shitty base stats, her incredibly shitty class, and her incredibly shitty supports. But at least she can grow to be a not as useless stand alone unit, while Fa can only suck.

I don't understand how Fa, who has better bases, better growths, and a better class, always sucks.

Fa would suck less if her stone lasted longer, but fuck that. We can at least baby Wendy, while we risk Fa being useless just from using her.

This logic doesn't make sense. "If we use Fa too much, she's useless, so let's just not use her!" seems to be what you're implying.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Wendy above Fa? What the hell is this? Wendy requires massive babying just to end up being shit while Fa's a glass cannon right from the start with incredibly growth. Compared to leveling Wendy, Fa's like a unit with Paragon/Elite while Wendy's got Blossom that's even worse.

Come now, there's absolutely no need to elaborate this one. Just the base 48 damage to Manaketes from the D stone's MT has more worth than Wendy's fail.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

She don't require babying? Aside from the fact even the weakest enemies on her joining chapter ORKO her? She needs babying, but thanks to her weapon, we can't actually afford to baby her. Baby her too much and her weapon won't have enough uses for when it'd actually be helpful. Don't use her and...well...She's useless.

Oh, and that Mamkute business and her being so damn good against them?

Mamkute on her joining chapter.

Enjoy your not endgame and your dead Fa. They absolutely murder her.

[dondon151]

She don't require babying? Aside from the fact even the weakest enemies on her joining chapter ORKO her?

Unlike Wendy, Fa can do damage. Wendy also faces ORKOs for a long while: namely, fighters, brigands, and pirates not weighed down.

She needs babying, but thanks to her weapon, we can't actually afford to baby her. Baby her too much and her weapon won't have enough uses for when it'd actually be helpful. Don't use her and...well...She's useless.

If we can baby Wendy then we can say that 10 uses of the dragonstone gets Fa 10 levels, a point where she's not defensively vulnerable anymore.

It's also much, much easier to baby Fa compared to Wendy.

Oh, and that Mamkute business and her being so damn good against them?

Enjoy your not endgame and your dead Fa. They absolutely murder her.

Let's ignore the fact that she does 27 damage against them whereas every single one of your units struggles to reach that damage output without effective weapons. If you're insinuating that Fa has to face mamkutes alone to be effective, then you're an idiot, sorry.

This output alone is superior to Wendy's 5-6 damage at 40% hit against pirates in chapter 9.

Edited June 11, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Unlike Wendy, Fa can do damage. Wendy also faces ORKOs for a long while: namely, fighters, brigands, and pirates not weighed down.

Everything else doesn't exist because you said so, right? You're ignoring the fact that ANYTHING that can attack Fa can effectively kill her, while it seems Wendy starts and eventually maintains a durability lead! Thanks for saying not everything kills Wendy. Guess that makes it a LOT easier to baby her than Fa, especially since Wendy has...ya know...other weapons than the ones she starts with.

If we can baby Wendy then we can say that 10 uses of the dragonstone gets Fa 10 levels, a point where she's not defensively vulnerable anymore.

It's also much, much easier to baby Fa compared to Wendy.

Not when everything is capable of killing Fa. Besides, what end result you trying to get at? Babying a unit so she won't suck for 14 more attacks? Wendy's usability doesn't suddenly plummet to waste of space the minute her weapon breaks.

Yeah, 10 levels when everything slaughters her in one round is incredibly fucking easy. Nevermind this would at least cut her usability by a 1/3 under best circumstances...

Let's ignore the fact that she does 27 damage against them whereas every single one of your units struggles to reach that damage output without effective weapons. If you're insinuating that Fa has to face mamkutes alone to be effective, then you're an idiot, sorry.

This output alone is superior to Wendy's 5-6 damage at 40% hit against pirates in chapter 9.

Well GEE, I guess because Fa's around, we should throw her at the damn thing and let her die rather than sending COMPETENT units to kill the stupid thing when we apparently have the equipment! One thing most of our units aren't doing is dying! Calling me the idiot when apparently you're trying to take down Mamkutes with iron weapons.

Yeah, I get it, Wendy sucks early and has a hard time improving, but least she does is at least become something resembling a unit, and continuing to do so without becoming useless when her weapon breaks. Besides, eventually Wendy can get Malte, and attack other things with other weapons because other enemies aren't one rounding her at this point. This point, Fa has to save up her stones, lest we waste the entire point of feeding her kills to not die to lategame mamkutes, which even that I question and should check up.

Can't even take her to Sacae. Wendy sucks there too, but at least she can retaliate with ranged weapons...and not die so easily.

[Quasar]

Assuming you've leveled to 10 with Fa and are past the babying phase the question remaining is do you bring her out just to to be effective against that one Mamkute at the end of the map. You don't. If you bring a unit that's supposed to make the enemy units bleed you expect him/her to do that, not just run along and attack the one thing they're super effective against. It's not a stretch to assume eight rounds of combat on average per chapter for unit basically leaving Fa with two chapters worth of availability after babying. If that's overkill with six rounds it's three chapters at most.

Let's ignore the fact that she does 27 damage against them whereas every single one of your units struggles to reach that damage output without effective weapons.

Except the vast majority of your magic users.

Wendy's been a detrimenty to your party for all that time that Fae hasn't. And triangle attack? You're kidding me if you think it's efficient to field all three knights and keep them together just for a guaranteed critical hit (especially if failboats such as Wendy and Barth are being discussed). That is, unless you think that Yunno should get out of bottom tier thanks to the triangle attack, in which case all i can say is LOL.

The point of my post was to show that if you replaced "Wendy" with "Fa" in your post you'd have the exact same thing, if not worse. You're the one who brought TA up, you can be bloody sure I wouldn't have touched that damn thing even with a stick.

[Shadow Mir]

The point of my post was to show that if you replaced "Wendy" with "Fa" in your post you'd have the exact same thing, if not worse. You're the one who brought TA up, you can be bloody sure I wouldn't have touched that damn thing even with a stick.

OK, but you brought up wanting Yunno above Fa.

And man oh man, it seems like a lot of the units in FE6 are either awesome or crap. There seems to be no middle ground...

Edited June 11, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[Florete]

This output alone is superior to Wendy's 5-6 damage at 40% hit against pirates in chapter 9.

Seriously, how the hell can anything be worse than this? Wendy is like Fiona only you really can't make her good because she doesn't have Fiona's good parts, just the suck. I can baby Fa as much as I babied Wendy to be good and make Fa look like a damn goddess.

And quit bitching over "lol30 uses." At least 20 of those are better than Wendy's epic fail.

[Colonel M]

Agreeing on Fa > Wendy. Wendy is a ton more detrimental than Fa is. Sure she [Fa] has a few more limits, but at least she can do something useful. Wendy can't ever brag that from what I recall.