Efficiency Tier List?

[Florete]

Concerning Zeiss and Tate, his problem is he joins in chapters where there are ballistae (Ilia). Great thing is he has a better time with it because we JUST got the aiote shield. Tate can use it too, but she's been bleh for a good while, not helping out much. Zeiss gets better returns, starts better, has an actually viable support in his sister, and easy to deal with enemies to be quite a bit tanky a unit for the dreaded chapter 24. His time is short, but he can spend it to actually shine somewhere, unlike Tate.

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Did you see my comparison? Even if she's purely average when she joins (which she probably is, maybe a bit better) she kills him when he joins up. His support in his sister is fairly viable, but it still starts late and so likely isn't building too soon, though the bonuses are decent (full avoid, crit, crit evade). But Tate already has a support with Klein and possibly her own sister when he joins. And his low speed makes tanking an issue against enemies that can double him (Heroes and Mercs for sure, possibly Snipers). I don't see how having a bit more defense makes him better than Tate.

And it would appear the GFaqers agree with me as well, seeing as they have Tate a full tier above Zeiss.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

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Did you see my comparison? Even if she's purely average when she joins (which she probably is, maybe a bit better) she kills him when he joins up. His support in his sister is fairly viable, but it still starts late and so likely isn't building too soon, though the bonuses are decent (full avoid, crit, crit evade). But Tate already has a support with Klein and possibly her own sister when he joins. And his low speed makes tanking an issue against enemies that can double him (Heroes and Mercs for sure, possibly Snipers). I don't see how having a bit more defense makes him better than Tate.

And it would appear the GFaqers agree with me as well, seeing as they have Tate a full tier above Zeiss.

A. That tier is based on ranks, this one is one of those efficiency deals. She runs into a bunch of ballistae and bowmen early, being average otherwise (a net of negative), while Zeiss is bleh at start but gets plenty tanky for chapter 24 along with getting a nice crit boost from his sis (as his avoid won't be golden). Also, that is an exageration with the tanking problem. He starts with decent defense, MAD strength to punch a hole in said emrcs and even with those mercs doubling they aren't doing that much damage. Heroes tear apart people anyways. Snipers however is a legitimate worry for him.

He has a shining moment in exchange for a period of meh, she's bleh early and is forever average. He's got less negative.

Also no, she isn't getting Klein, not before the likes of Deick, Percival and Cecilia as her competition. Zeiss is nothing short of garunteed Miledy, as her other supports are dubious at best.

As for your comparison, her defense is down 2 and her avoid isn't great as Klein's not supporting her. That's 4 defense. There are also lots fewer mages in this game than physical enemies, most of them being lances of which her new weapon on promotion makes her WEAKER to them. Let's not forget he's just powerful to start and has easy targets come Ilia. Grows mad power and defense, his subpar speed is not much of a worry at the cost of being a flying tank who helps someone up in high. This is all better than Tate just being meh forever.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Florete]

A. That tier is based on ranks, this one is one of those efficiency deals.

There's hardly a difference with how lenient the rankings are in this game.

She runs into a bunch of ballistae and bowmen early, being average otherwise (a net of negative),

How is this a net of negative? If she needs to sit back for a turn, so what? She can catch up fast and keep doing her stuff.

He starts with decent defense, MAD strength to punch a hole in said emrcs and even with those mercs doubling they aren't doing that much damage.

By the time he joins, Tate is doing better defensively and offensively anyway, and that doesn't change much since he won't double anything except Armors and his avoid always sucks while Tate's is fairly good.

Heroes tear apart people anyways.

Zeiss yes, but not Tate, who they don't double and might even miss.

He has a shining moment in exchange for a period of meh,

That's worse than Tate, who shines more than he and her "meh" period isn't as "meh."

she's bleh early and is forever average.

If this is true, Zeiss is awful early and forever bad.

Also no, she isn't getting Klein, not before the likes of Deick, Percival and Cecilia as her competition.

Dieck is almost definitely going Rutger/Clarine, Cecilia sucks (are you serious?), and the Percival support is worse in terms of speed and bonuses (5 turns slower, 2 def>7 crit). What were you saying?

EDIT: You meant Clarine, but that changes nothing since she's in a sexy threesome with Dieck and Rutger.

Zeiss is nothing short of garunteed Miledy, as her other supports are dubious at best.

Lugh, Ellen, and Treck would like a word with that, especially if you want to argue that Tate isn't getting Klein.

As for your comparison, her defense is down 2 and her avoid isn't great as Klein's not supporting her.

She is supporting Klein as I have previously shown.

There are also lots fewer mages in this game than physical enemies,

So? She's still miles better against them than Zeiss.

most of them being lances of which her new weapon on promotion makes her WEAKER to them.

And Zeiss's weapon situation is the exact same as Tate's. Your point?

Let's not forget he's just powerful to start and has easy targets come Ilia.

High strength, but awful speed and avoid. Don't forget that if we go Sacae for any given reason, he's fucked. Tate is too, but to a lesser extent since she actually has a chance to dodge.

Grows mad power and defense, his subpar speed is not much of a worry at the cost of being a flying tank who helps someone up in high.

25% defense growth is mad? And yeah, he helps Miledy, but it's late so it isn't even likely to have much of an affect on her since she rocks without the support and she's already grown.

This is all better than Tate just being meh forever.

If Tate's meh forever, Zeiss sucks forever. You never even countered her clear offensive advantage.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

There's hardly a difference with how lenient the rankings are in this game.

Hue and most of bottom tier would like to have a word with you.

How is this a net of negative? If she needs to sit back for a turn, so what? She can catch up fast and keep doing her stuff.

Not much. Her durability is not that great and I'll explain why. A. she's weighed down quite a bit by her lances or doing pitiful damage with slim, B. Her luck is low. She's not getting crit hit, but her avoid isn't doing too well thanks to a combination of these, and C. She has no supports at this point. She 30 avoid, a slight bit more if she's gotten a level or two.

By the time he joins, Tate is doing better defensively and offensively anyway, and that doesn't change much since he won't double anything except Armors and his avoid always sucks while Tate's is fairly good.

Offensive maybe, but not defensively. He starts with 36 HP and 15 defense. This is better than her by the time he shows up by quite a bit, what are we spoiling her? He doesn't join a long time after, just 6 chapters, 3 of which she's doing little in, 1 where her use is just in transport, and 1 where she's legitimately good thanks to there being an actual bit of mages. She's hardly developed a lead on him, in fact he crushes her defensively and CONTINUES to do so. He gets doubled by a few units at best that do little to him anyways thanks to being tanky + lances>swords.

Zeiss yes, but not Tate, who they don't double and might even miss.

Tate doesn't dodge well either. Yeah, she can dodge better than Zeiss, but not a whole lot better. Worse part is she takes shots like a bitch. Zeiss doesn't. Also, there's like only a small handful of units that double Zeiss and they aren't that troublesome to him either.

If this is true, Zeiss is awful early and forever bad.

You do realize that Zeiss's bases are GREAT, right?

Dieck is almost definitely going Rutger/Clarine, Cecilia sucks (are you serious?), and the Percival support is worse in terms of speed and bonuses (5 turns slower, 2 def>7 crit). What were you saying?

Kelin is a good alternative for Deick, all he misses out on is a bit of crit rather than abigger amount. Gets more hit too, something his iron blades would love. Clarine can support him too anyways, so it's not like she's missing out on avoid. Her, Rutger, Deick and Clarine can actually form a nice square.

Tate on the other hand, has no one but Thany (yay, bringing in a garbage unit with garbage bonuses just to have a support WOOHOO!). Klein is quite busy with his friends.

Cecilia having a form of offense against pesky wyverns and fliers (we ARE going to Ilia, right?), 2 supports that give her avoid (one giving her a defense boost), mobility and staffs Is suddenly bad now? She's not terrible, she's average. Percival also has no one better to support. He's great on his own, but he'd still like supports.

EDIT: You meant Clarine, but that changes nothing since she's in a sexy threesome with Dieck and Rutger.

They wouldn't mind letting Klein in to get some action. Hell, Clarine gets MORE avoid from this square thanks to having full supports rather than B B. Deick: A Rutger, B Klein. Klein: A Clarine, B Deick. Clarine: A Klein, B Rutger. Rutger: A Deick, B Clarine. Deick prefers Klein over Clarine as Clarine is much slower (Klein starts with an auto-40 for their C).

Lugh, Ellen, and Treck would like a word with that, especially if you want to argue that Tate isn't getting Klein.

Lou is busy supporting people he can actually be around, like Ellen and Ray, Ellen only gives crit and is in the same boat as Lou, Treck gives the same crappy bonuses along with being slow as a support. Zeiss on the other hand is quite fast and they have the same friggin job along with giving delicious crit and avoid.

She is supporting Klein as I have previously shown.

I've shown not only does he have many options, he has better options that are a lot more realistic.

So? She's still miles better against them than Zeiss.

Well dur, but it's not a major win for her. This game isn't overflowing with mages ya know.

And Zeiss's weapon situation is the exact same as Tate's. Your point?

He's not weighed down by his lances, has better defense, and has the STRENGTH to wield them better. Iron swords in Tate's hands is pretty funny. Zeiss doesn't care about swords anyways, and neither should Tate so the fact she gets swords is a moot point. If anything it's a point in Zeiss's favor, as it reduces the damage he takes from axe blows and gives him a better chance at dodging to further increase his durability.

High strength, but awful speed and avoid. Don't forget that if we go Sacae for any given reason, he's fucked. Tate is too, but to a lesser extent since she actually has a chance to dodge.

Oh yeah, Sacae, since EVERYONE but fliers does so well there, right? Why screw them BOTH over by making an incredibly stupid choice in the first place? At least Zeiss does better against Ballistae.

25% defense growth is mad? And yeah, he helps Miledy, but it's late so it isn't even likely to have much of an affect on her since she rocks without the support and she's already grown.

If Tate's meh forever, Zeiss sucks forever. You never even countered her clear offensive advantage.

25% growth is better than the good string of 20% growths everyone has, not to mention starting with 15 and fast leveling with his great HP is helping him greatly too. His defense is mad. The +2 he gains at promotion helps a lot too.

Also, having a viable support is better than just having none.

His speed is hardly a factor with how bad enemy speed is. He's not doubling, but he's durable and avoiding doubling, only ones that can are mercs who tickle him, heroes who tear people apart anyways, or the snipers he actually fears.

In fact, Vyland has a point with promoting him early. I'll have to check it over though first, all he needs are 3 easily gained levels.

[Mekkah]

Percival's hit bonus isn't just good for Sacae. A L17 Merc in Ilia has 43 avo, for example. Percival has 32 base hit, so with Silver Lance and WTA he barely makes it to 100 hit or so, and he ends up with in the 60s displayed. Then Ilia is full of forests too. Or even something like a L18 Shaman with Nosferatu has 24 avo, where Iron Lance Percival would have 78 display (90% true) on, or about an 18% chance to miss at least once on a double. Missing is obviously pretty bad (I explained why when whining about Gonzales). He certainly does not mind B Klein bumping that up to 88 display (97% true).

[grandjackal]

Precisely. So Klein is helping and can help multiple people this way.

Who here thinks Klein should move up actually? Yay or Nay?

[Dat Nick]

Her affinity may not grant avoid, but she has 180% avoid growth and if she's in play, she will likely support Tate, granting her a bit of avoid, which will still be better than anything Zeiss has.

You're overrating her avoid so badly it's ridiculous.

Not only is avoid not that great, bad con makes it worse.

she will likely support Tate, granting her a bit of avoid,

Oh JOY! WindxIce! The worst combo ever!

Her real problem is power, but she's almost always doubling, so we need to be fighting an enemy with >10 defense for base level Zeiss to do more in one round than 20/2 Thany w/Iron Lances (admittedly not tough to come by)

Yes, please continue to ignore the fact that Zeiss grows at light speed and will be playing a whip ASAP since his strength will just cap out anyway.

She also has early game utility. Village visiting, rescuing, etc. She's beating him before he exists and she ties/beats him when he exists as well, so she > Zeiss.

wtf? No, this isn't how it works. Sucking does not>Not existing. Especially not in earlygame, where Thany is adding even MORE suck to your team in the hardest portion of the game.

You're not going to win Thany>Zeiss. Better quit while you're ahead.

Cecilia having a form of offense against pesky wyverns and fliers (we ARE going to Ilia, right?), 2 supports that give her avoid (one giving her a defense boost), mobility and staffs Is suddenly bad now? She's not terrible, she's average. Percival also has no one better to support. He's great on his own, but he'd still like supports.

Yeah, effective bonus against fliers, nothing else. Wolt is pwning fliers, look at all the good that does him.

There's no way in hell flier nuking puts her anywhere above low. Sure as hell not flier nuking alone. And actually, I question her ability to pwn pegs [Resistance, and speed, which Cecilia SUCKS at] and it's very probable Wyverns can survive an Aircalibur shot since they have massive HP and she has blah mag.

Klein's not budging because of Cecilia.

You know what else I question? Her ability not to get doubled. Oh lawd that SPEED. We aren't dealing with the failures HHM throws at you.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Vyland

[grandjackal]

Indeed, since she only starts with what, 5 better than him with con involved with a basic iron lance?

She only wins in doubling, which is great, but her durability isn't doing her any favors. It's just that much easier for her to die than it is for Zeiss. Zeiss's offense also isn't so bad as to offset his great durability either.

That and he's like one of the few who benefit from promoting early, though he levels up fast as it is, he could do with a couple leves as to not just promote at level 10. More like....11-14 maybe.

[Dat Nick]

never mind that my statements were aimed at the ludicrous idea that Thany>Zeiss, rather than Tate

[grandjackal]

never mind that my statements were aimed at the ludicrous idea that Thany>Zeiss, rather than Tate

Apples to Oranges. Besides, I thought this whole argument was about Tate...Oh well, it's true that Thany>Zeiss is indeed silly and hilarious.

[Florete]

Hue and most of bottom tier would like to have a word with you.

Okay, but this doesn't apply to Tate and Zeiss at all.

Not much. Her durability is not that great and I'll explain why. A. she's weighed down quite a bit by her lances or doing pitiful damage with slim,

An Iron Lance makes her lose 6 avoid, oh no! She's still doubling and dodging on occasion

B. Her luck is low. She's not getting crit hit, but her avoid isn't doing too well thanks to a combination of these, and C. She has no supports at this point. She 30 avoid, a slight bit more if she's gotten a level or two.

Zeiss has no supports when he joins either, his avoid is worse, and he's doubled by certain enemies, and all this happens even later, meaning he faces stronger enemies at base.

Offensive maybe, but not defensively. He starts with 36 HP and 15 defense. This is better than her by the time he shows up by quite a bit, what are we spoiling her?

And how did I spoil her? She can easily be promoted by the start of 17. I think you're seriously underrating her durability. It's not amazing, but she's not Lilina.

He doesn't join a long time after, just 6 chapters, 3 of which she's doing little in, 1 where her use is just in transport, and 1 where she's legitimately good thanks to there being an actual bit of mages.

This isn't bad, but I can't say much without enemy stats.

She's hardly developed a lead on him, in fact he crushes her defensively and CONTINUES to do so. He gets doubled by a few units at best that do little to him anyways thanks to being tanky + lances>swords.

...What? I showed earlier that he only wins 2 defense, but she wins HP, avoid, and resistance, so she beats him defensively for a while and considering avoid, probably continues to do so. Lances > Swords, yeah, but I don't see how that's relevant.

Tate doesn't dodge well either. Yeah, she can dodge better than Zeiss, but not a whole lot better.

+15 avoid with Klein and 150% avoid growth is nice. She doesn't dodge everything, but enough to get by, while Zeiss dodges nothing.

Worse part is she takes shots like a bitch. Zeiss doesn't. Also, there's like only a small handful of units that double Zeiss and they aren't that troublesome to him either.

When Zeiss joins, he's taking shots worse, maybe on par considering he has more defense but she has more HP.

You do realize that Zeiss's bases are GREAT, right?

His strength and defense, nothing else. Tate's got good bases also.

Kelin is a good alternative for Deick, all he misses out on is a bit of crit rather than abigger amount. Gets more hit too, something his iron blades would love. Clarine can support him too anyways, so it's not like she's missing out on avoid. Her, Rutger, Deick and Clarine can actually form a nice square.

Except if they do this, the best character in the game (Rutger) loses out on what gives him that title as well as the fact that these supports start 7 chapters later. Why the hell would they wait that long for partially inferior bonuses?

Tate on the other hand, has no one but Thany (yay, bringing in a garbage unit with garbage bonuses just to have a support WOOHOO!). Klein is quite busy with his friends.

You're not going to break up the lovey-dovey pair that is KleinxTate. You're not. I've given more than enough evidence to show why they are their best partners.

They wouldn't mind letting Klein in to get some action. Hell, Clarine gets MORE avoid from this square thanks to having full supports rather than B B. Deick: A Rutger, B Klein. Klein: A Clarine, B Deick. Clarine: A Klein, B Rutger. Rutger: A Deick, B Clarine. Deick prefers Klein over Clarine as Clarine is much slower (Klein starts with an auto-40 for their C).

It also starts 7 chapters later. Their triangle could be completed by the time Klein shows up!

Lou is busy supporting people he can actually be around, like Ellen and Ray, Ellen only gives crit and is in the same boat as Lou, Treck gives the same crappy bonuses along with being slow as a support. Zeiss on the other hand is quite fast and they have the same friggin job along with giving delicious crit and avoid.

Even Ray is in play now? First Cecilia, now Ray? And the Treck support might not be as good, but it starts sooner and his move matches her except from terrain.

I've shown not only does he have many options, he has better options that are a lot more realistic.

I've shown the opposite.

Well dur, but it's not a major win for her. This game isn't overflowing with mages ya know.

This game isn't overflowing with slow enemies for Zeiss to chomp down on either.

He's not weighed down by his lances, has better defense, and has the STRENGTH to wield them better.

No matter what they weild, she will always have better AS. Getting weighed down in itself has no meaning, it's what it ends up as, and her AS will always be better. Her defense is fairly similar but with existing avoid, and Strength doesn't help us weild stuff.

Iron swords in Tate's hands is pretty funny. Zeiss doesn't care about swords anyways, and neither should Tate so the fact she gets swords is a moot point. If anything it's a point in Zeiss's favor, as it reduces the damage he takes from axe blows and gives him a better chance at dodging to further increase his durability.

That's the exact same point for both of them. It helps them against axe users. You do realize they have the exact same weapon situation? Lances + swords on promotion?

Oh yeah, Sacae, since EVERYONE but fliers does so well there, right? Why screw them BOTH over by making an incredibly stupid choice in the first place? At least Zeiss does better against Ballistae.

Ballistaes aren't the most accurate things and Tate has more avoid and HP. If anything, she fares better against them.

25% growth is better than the good string of 20% growths everyone has, not to mention starting with 15 and fast leveling with his great HP is helping him greatly too. His defense is mad. The +2 he gains at promotion helps a lot too.

It's good, but not "mad," especially when he gets doubled on occasion.

Also, having a viable support is better than just having none.

Ha.

His speed is hardly a factor with how bad enemy speed is. He's not doubling, but he's durable and avoiding doubling, only ones that can are mercs who tickle him, heroes who tear people apart anyways, or the snipers he actually fears.

Bad enemy speed? This ain't FE7, buddy. All Zeiss is doubling is Knights, realistically speaking, and his durability must build up before it beats Tate's.

Precisely. So Klein is helping and can help multiple people this way.

Who here thinks Klein should move up actually? Yay or Nay?

Klein can move up, that's fine. But Mekkah only argued for B Klein on Percival, so A Klein on Tate is still easily available.

You're not going to win Thany>Zeiss. Better quit while you're ahead.

I'll drop Thany > Zeiss for now, but I'll be back to it after I've shown Tate > Zeiss. I will not drop Tate > Zeiss.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Chapter 17 Ilia: Lowest AS from the cavaliers is 8 (12 SPD - 4 from wielding a Steel Lance with 9 Con). The only thing Zeiss is doubling here are the 2 Armor Knights and only doubles 1 of them if he's using a Steel Lance. Give him a Steel Lance and the Paladins, Mages and Bishops will double him.

Cavalier ATK ranges anywhere from 23 (1 or 2 of them) to 26 (most of them). Their DEF average is 10.

Paladin ATK ranges from 29 to 31. DEF 11 to 14.

Avoid ranges from 24 (cavaliers with Steel Lances lol) to 35, 37 for the bishops.

As great as Zeiss' stats are, he has a slow start even with those HM bonuses and his overall performance doesn't exactly compensate for his late join time and all the previous chapters Tate's available in.

I'll look up more enemy stats if necessary, just tell me which chapter(s).

Edited March 18, 2009 by Sirius

[Lord Raven]

Any chapter Tate's been around for.

[grandjackal]

Okay, but this doesn't apply to Tate and Zeiss at all.

An Iron Lance makes her lose 6 avoid, oh no! She's still doubling and dodging on occasion

You are aware most of the offense comes from ENEMY phase charging at you and you counter, right? Goddammit, I'm starting to feel like I'm arguing Olwen-Eyrios again.

Zeiss has no supports when he joins either, his avoid is worse, and he's doubled by certain enemies, and all this happens even later, meaning he faces stronger enemies at base.

You mean the piddling few mercenaries that don't 2 round him even considering doubling? You're exagerating how often he gets doubled. Bring up Snipers, and I'll bring up how Tate gets shot down just as bad, bring up heroes and I'll bring up Zeiss does more damage in return, since Tate sure as hell isn't. She can't even use steel on them to do as much damage as Zeiss and she gets doubled in return anyways! Zeiss can at least take blows, even when doubled. Heroes and Snipers are his only concerns and at least it's he can do nice damage to heroes.

And how did I spoil her? She can easily be promoted by the start of 17. I think you're seriously underrating her durability. It's not amazing, but she's not Lilina.

You mean her level or the chapter? Either way, if she does this just to COMPARE in defense to him...Besides, not like we can't promote Zeiss early either to make him even more durable.

This isn't bad, but I can't say much without enemy stats.

We don't even need them, you literally can't get to the throne in the chapter after her join time without getting shot by bowmen, not to mention no supports have built up, which she has none of anyways. Plenty of longbows too, so she can't even counter with javelins, which further murder her speed and avoid. Next chapter is FOW with lots of axemen who have an easier time hitting her weighed down lance-wielding ass, and myrmidons she can't double. Next chapter she's either getting shot down by ballistae, getting ravaged by gangs of cavaliers with their silver lance holding paladin leaders, or getting raped by Flare. Nabata, dragon gangs rape her and heroes shove their killer edges up her unlucky ass, only useful as transport. Nabata gaiden there are mages so she's ok here, but there are a buttload of pirates and berserkers who chase her down, so she's not completely free of danger. Then we go to Etruria where she does pretty good actually, WAIT HERE COMES ZEISS!

...What? I showed earlier that he only wins 2 defense, but she wins HP, avoid, and resistance, so she beats him defensively for a while and considering avoid, probably continues to do so. Lances > Swords, yeah, but I don't see how that's relevant.

It's relevent because it helps explain why he's not doing bad against swordsmen anyways, as triangle advantage reduces damage taken. Yes Tate has the same advantage, but Zeiss has MUCH better defense anyways. You had to promote her early to make her MAJOR bleh later just to have her COMPARE AT JOINTIME.

+15 avoid with Klein and 150% avoid growth is nice. She doesn't dodge everything, but enough to get by, while Zeiss dodges nothing.

0 avoid with not Klein you mean, where she has similar avoid to Zeiss while having her attack speed weighed down with basic iron, heaven forbid she try to use steel or she has only one point of speed above him is she has 20 speed where then her problems are suddenly more amplified while having worse offense.

When Zeiss joins, he's taking shots worse, maybe on par considering he has more defense but she has more HP.

A rule I usually follow is to treat 1 defense like 2 HP. Defense helps more overall. Technically she has 1 durability point more than him...Next, we shall cry over spilled milk. His durability growths also spank her by 20% HP and 10% Defense no less...

His strength and defense, nothing else. Tate's got good bases also.

He's getting doubled by the rare mercenary who does little to him, boo hoo. He's got better offense on Heroes and both fear snipers like the plague.

Except if they do this, the best character in the game (Rutger) loses out on what gives him that title as well as the fact that these supports start 7 chapters later. Why the hell would they wait that long for partially inferior bonuses?

In teh support square I showed, I just explained that Rutger gets the same bonuses he usually gets anyways as he has the same supports. Deick actually benefits more for the more hit for his lovely blade weapons, getting the same defense anyways. It boosts it by little, but with blades Deick doesn't need crit to slaughter, now does he?

You're not going to break up the lovey-dovey pair that is KleinxTate. You're not. I've given more than enough evidence to show why they are their best partners.

Klein has more realistic supports in Percival. Deick or Clarine because they don't fly the fuck off. They ride a good distance, but they don't fly over mountains or ridges and such. Clarine has similar movement and is faster, Deick is quick for the B anyways as that's all Klein wants. He has similar movement to them both, being in between them.

It also starts 7 chapters later. Their triangle could be completed by the time Klein shows up!

I see you underestmate Clarine 2 move lead and precisely how slow it is. It can't be any slower. Clarine's join chapter she can get a bit in but the chapter is still getting through quick by then, Chapter 4 is quite hectic and can be finished quickly as well if we split up with some going north, others going through the gate (those going north drawing away some of the forces away from the castle as to not get the gate breachers gang-raped by the enemy sudden reinforcements). Again we can get a bit in, but not much before the chapter ends. Chapter 6 can be finished so quickly it makes thy head spin. Chapter 7 is just a hellhole, so Clarine will not be around Deick 24/7. Chapter 8 she's rushing ahead with your other mounted troups, Deick lagging behind to spend quality time with Rutger. Durandal Gaiden is...pretty straightforward, still ended quickly. Chapter 9 she can get a bit of quality time in, Chapter 10 A is literally just walking south. Then Klein shows up. I'd actually think they'd be close enough to equal on getting the C support, Klein starts with auto 40 with Deick. He only wants a B with Deick anyways, and will actually develop faster anyways as they'll be close by. He'll be the space between Deick and Clarine, building supports with them BOTH. I think it's speed of development over Clarine getting a bit of crit when she FINALLY gets a B with Deick.

Even Ray is in play now? First Cecilia, now Ray? And the Treck support might not be as good, but it starts sooner and his move matches her except from terrain.

Treck and Ray are in the same tier. Funds not mattering, his weapons being expensive are no longer a factor. He has ok speed, Nosferatu isn't that heavy to him. He has a bad start, but a brilliant build-up. Gets staffs at promotion too (and he has no problem waiting, he has to level anyways), and is Lou's better B support since Chad will never be anywhere near Lou and eventually will just vanish. That B lets him hit stuff more accurately too, making Nosferatu that much more effective. I'd hardly say Ray is a bad unit. Could be better, but he's not bad. Cecilia is Percival's only realistic option (and is pretty fast to boot), gives her avoid along with helping Saul have an option (not really), or make Douglas tankier, mobility, staffs, aircalibur for offense on those annoying as fuck wyverns, being basically a net average. Cecilia is not as bad as one things, though I'm thinking of lowering her again as I just noticed she doesn't actually support Klein.

I've shown the opposite.

Saying because Klein is lovey dovey is not countering the fact that Klein fits nicely into a square that gives more bonus overall than the triangle.

This game isn't overflowing with slow enemies for Zeiss to chomp down on either.

Right, it's overflowing with enemies slow enough to not double Zeiss in which he can punch them in the throat when he counters the enemy phase.

No matter what they weild, she will always have better AS. Getting weighed down in itself has no meaning, it's what it ends up as, and her AS will always be better. Her defense is fairly similar but with existing avoid, and Strength doesn't help us weild stuff.

Yes, con does, which Zeiss has more of. Doubling's great if your not easily torn apart. Also, lol having more AS no matter what she equips. Considering the little she can actually do between joining and Zeiss, she won't have leveled so much that she has 20 speed. With her con, she loses 8 SPEED holding a steel lance, 6 with a javelin. She'd actually have LESS speed than him with a steel lance, him doing more damage with iron without losing a single point in speed holding the thing. Lulz.

That's the exact same point for both of them. It helps them against axe users. You do realize they have the exact same weapon situation? Lances + swords on promotion?

WTA boosts avoid, defense and does more damage. Zeiss is more durable as is, he does more damage as is. He benefits more as now it's even HARDER to kill him and he does a bit more damage. It doesn't boost Tate's defense to be greater than his as it only makes his better. He benefits more.

Ballistaes aren't the most accurate things and Tate has more avoid and HP. If anything, she fares better against them.

If we promote her early, which point she pretty much COMPARES to him. She's promoted, comparing to an unpromoted unit. Do you...not see the problem here?

It's good, but not "mad," especially when he gets doubled on occasion.

Again, you exagerate. How rare are mercenaries and heroes when he shows up? Very much so. Even then, the mercenaries don't exactly tear him apart.

Ha.

Harumph.

Bad enemy speed? This ain't FE7, buddy. All Zeiss is doubling is Knights, realistically speaking, and his durability must build up before it beats Tate's.

Funny, you seem to think that a unit automatically sucks if they can't double. He tanks better (she promotes to compare, 3 levels later he's forever spanking her), so he can do more damage on enemy phase. This is better than Tate flying in and doing damage to one enemy while getting gangbanged on enemy phase.

Klein can move up, that's fine. But Mekkah only argued for B Klein on Percival, so A Klein on Tate is still easily available.

Percival's not his only option as I've shown, so no, that A does not exist for Tate.

I'll drop Thany > Zeiss for now, but I'll be back to it after I've shown Tate > Zeiss. I will not drop Tate > Zeiss.

Fair enough.

Now lessee...where to raise Klein...you folks tell me if I put him a bit too high or not.

To Sirius: Zeiss does more damage with iron than she does with steel, so he's nothing to worry about getting doubled, she can't double a damn thing with steel from what I see. She's doing better against the pegs, who do nothing much to Zeiss anyways.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Dr. Tarrasque]

@Jackal: Why would you have her use Steel Lance when you've got Killer Lances and can purchase them on chapter 13? She is doubling the 8 AS Cavaliers with a Steel Lance btw.

Anyway, here's the enemy stats for the non FOW maps. No stats for the reinforcements though...

Chapter 12

Chapter 13

Chapter 14x

Chapter 15

Chapter 16

I'll get the stats for the FOW maps later.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

@Jackal: Why would you have her use Steel Lance when you've got Killer Lances and can purchase them on chapter 13? She is doubling the 8 AS Cavaliers with a Steel Lance btw.

Anyway, here's the enemy stats for the non FOW maps. No stats for the reinforcements though...

Chapter 12

Chapter 13

Chapter 14x

Chapter 15

Chapter 16

I'll get the stats for the FOW maps later.

We can just give Zeiss those lances too. His support with Miledy might be a bit late, but it's decent paced and gives him avoid and crit, so he can actually put it to good use himself anyways. But this is for earlier chapters when the support doesn't quite exist.

For how quick he levels, with 35% speed growth (an ok growth), he could soon get a point in speed and do the same thing with killer, more effectively no less. However, she still is better though here, but just barely and it's sad she's comparing to an unpromoted character at his freaking base...He promotes and just destroys her regardless. Either way, she's barely doing more than he is.

She isn't doubling them with steel because she magically didn't get 20 speed with the little she's doing.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

We can just give Zeiss those lances too. His support with Miledy might be a bit late, but it's decent paced and gives him avoid and crit, so he can actually put it to good use himself anyways. But this is for earlier chapters when the support doesn't quite exist.

For how quick he levels, with 35% speed growth (an ok growth), he could soon get a point in speed and do the same thing with killer, more effectively no less. However, she still is better though here, but just barely and it's sad she's comparing to an unpromoted character at his freaking base...He promotes and just destroys her regardless. Either way, she's barely doing more than he is.

She isn't doubling them with steel because she magically didn't get 20 speed with the little she's doing.

@Bold: Killer Lance is C rank. Zeiss starts with D, so you can't at chapter 17. Since he's not doubling, he'll gain WEXP slowly too.

[grandjackal]

@Bold: Killer Lance is C rank. Zeiss starts with D, so you can't at chapter 17. Since he's not doubling, he'll gain WEXP slowly too.

....Forgot about that...

[Balcerzak]

Basic reinforcement arrivals data, for all chapters here. Only includes level and equipment, extrapolate stats from similarly levelled regular units.

Edit: All non-Sacae chapters, I should clarify.

Second Edit: There's also the Gant lance, if there's any left, to consider. I know I tend to save some for babying Zeiss personally, but if Tate is in play, she could very well use it up before he gets a chance.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Balcerzak

[Dr. Tarrasque]

K, got the FOW stats...

Chapter 12x

Chapter 14

12x looks like feeding time for units that have been recruited recently.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

K, got the FOW stats...

Chapter 12x

Chapter 14

12x looks like feeding time for units that have been recruited recently.

Like Tate? Maybe if the axemen didn't have a good shot at her. Even with iron, the myrmidons aren't getting doubled by her. At least Ray has magic range and Nosferatu. There are archers here too. This chapter isn't doing Tate any favors.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Like Tate? Maybe if the axemen didn't have a good shot at her.

With Slim Lance, the hit rate against her would be around 42% and with Iron lance it would be 48% and this is using her HM base stats. You talk as if there's no healers and as if she's never gonna avoid anything. I was mostly referring to the thieves since they give pretty good EXP.

Even with iron, the myrmidons aren't getting doubled by her.

Who the hell said she will double them? She comes in chapter 11 with 15 SPD and only has chapter 12 to level up in before 12x (not counting arena abuse obviously). It's not like most of your other units will be doubling 16-17 AS enemies at this point either.

There are archers here too. This chapter isn't doing Tate any favors.

http://fireemblem.shinranet.com/fe6/guiafe6/cap12x.htm

3 Archers, hardly a problem.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

With Slim Lance, the hit rate against her would be around 42% and with Iron lance it would be 48% and this is using her HM base stats. You talk as if there's no healers and as if she's never gonna avoid anything. I was mostly referring to the thieves since they give pretty good EXP.

Who the hell said she will double them? She comes in chapter 11 with 15 SPD and only has chapter 12 to level up in before 12x (not counting arena abuse obviously). It's not like most of your other units will be doubling 16-17 AS enemies at this point either.

http://fireemblem.shinranet.com/fe6/guiafe6/cap12x.htm

3 Archers, hardly a problem.

Fine, she has a chapter of use...

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You still haven't proven that Zeiss' performance compensates for his late join time and he's not doing that much better than Tate in Ilia. Let's not forget how terrible he is in Sacae.

[grandjackal]

You still haven't proven that Zeiss' performance compensates for his late join time and he's not doing that much better than Tate in Ilia. Let's not forget how terrible he is in Sacae.

Considering she needs to promote early just to compare to his base (which he can promote easy in three levels and just destroy her, especially in General Murderface Murdock's chapter), is only a bit good in Ilia (which Zeiss is too while not sucking early sans a single rediculously easy chapter, a bit of another), no real supports and sucking hard 2 chapters. Zeiss is doing plenty better. Sacae? HA! As if Tate isn't getting murdered there too. Both of them suck something royal there.

I think me needs to hand this over to someone else, as I'm not convinced, but I'm starting to get a bit irrational here. If no one wants to at all, I guess I'll raise Tate above Zeiss.