Efficiency Tier List?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Considering she needs to promote early just to compare to his base (which he can promote easy in three levels and just destroy her, especially in General Murderface Murdock's chapter), is only a bit good in Ilia (which Zeiss is too while not sucking early sans a single rediculously easy chapter, a bit of another), no real supports and sucking hard 2 chapters. Zeiss is doing plenty better. Sacae? HA! As if Tate isn't getting murdered there too. Both of them suck something royal there.

I think me needs to hand this over to someone else, as I'm not convinced, but I'm starting to get a bit irrational here. If no one wants to at all, I guess I'll raise Tate above Zeiss.

You often forget weapon ranks. Silver and Killer Lances + doubling makes up for Zeiss' freakish STR.

Supports... eh not gonna bother with those, don't care for them.

I wouldn't call a slow start where you're not double and you're getting doubled if you use a Steel Lance "plenty better".

As for Sacae, I'll play nice and compare them both with the Delphi Shield equipped. Zeiss 15 DEF and 36 HP, Tate with 12 DEF and 41 HP (lvl 20/1) basically.

Vs 17 ATK Nomad...

Tate takes 5, Zeiss get doubled for 2 per hit (so it's 4 >_>). Zeiss wins here...

Vs 18 ATK Nomad...

Tate 6 damage, Zeiss gets doubled for 6. Tate wins due to her better HP, obviously and the more ATK they have, the more Tate wins.

The Nomads will have higher hit rates on Zeiss and slightly higher critical hit rates on him too (let's not forget that he's getting doubled so this will be a problem).

You once again do not prove that Zeiss' performance does not compensate for his late join time.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

You often forget weapon ranks. Silver and Killer Lances + doubling makes up for Zeiss' freakish STR.

Supports... eh not gonna bother with those, don't care for them.

I wouldn't call a slow start where you're not double and you're getting doubled if you use a Steel Lance "plenty better".

As for Sacae, I'll play nice and compare them both with the Delphi Shield equipped. Zeiss 15 DEF and 36 HP, Tate with 12 DEF and 41 HP (lvl 20/1) basically.

Vs 17 ATK Nomad...

Tate takes 5, Zeiss get doubled for 2 per hit (so it's 4 >_>). Zeiss wins here...

Vs 18 ATK Nomad...

Tate 6 damage, Zeiss gets doubled for 6. Tate wins due to her better HP, obviously and the more ATK they have, the more Tate wins.

The Nomads will have higher hit rates on Zeiss and slightly higher critical hit rates on him too (let's not forget that he's getting doubled so this will be a problem).

You once again do not prove that Zeiss' performance does not compensate for his late join time.

We aren't going to Sacae anyways, but she can go above him due to the weapon rank stuff.

Anyone here think Douglas should rise up at all?

Edited March 18, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Dr. Tarrasque]

We aren't going to Sacae anyways, but she can go above him due to the weapon rank stuff.

Can't judge a character's overall performance/utility if you don't take everything into account. In the regular tier list, Ilia is more common since it greatly helps with the rankings. In this tier list, rankings don't mean a damn so it's not the same.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Can't judge a character's overall performance/utility if you don't take everything into account.

Rrrr, fine. She rose up anyways, it's a moot point now.

Anyone think Douglas should rise up at all? Anyone? If so, how high? I'm thinking he could stand to rise, just not sure by how much...

Since we can think of if we're going one route or another now that ranks aren't important (and maybe I really should raise Shin up a ton with this in mind, but Sacae is STILL harder), it should be known that Douglas is essentially a god there. The dude's got pretty nice support options too.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Florete]

I see you've moved her up, however, I still cannot see how KleinxTate isn't the best for both of them. First off, they have the same affinity, so the fact that they match each other's bonuses is already a plus. Second, it's Klein's fastest after Clarine and Tate's fastest after Juno and Thany. Third, Clarine and Dieck benefit more from an earlier support with Rutger rather than wait for Klein since it's Rutger's crit vs. Klein's defense, but Clarine relies on dodging anyway and I'm pretty sure Dieck's durable enough. Fourth, support triangle is better than support square because you only have to rely on three units being together and not four, giving you more leniance in where you send people (If Klein needs to fight fliers while the others go do something else better, you can do it at no support cost). Lastly, I don't see how Klein would even consider going A Percival when Tate's around since it's slower, starts later, and the bonuses are worse.

And now I'm done. I'll come up with an analysis for Cath next. (Why the hell is she, like, 3 full tiers below Chad and Astol anyway?) I know I said I'd go for Thany > Zeiss, but I've lost interest in that.

EDIT: One more thing. While I agree with Sirius that all situations need to be considered, I think it would be wise to acknowledge that Ilia is the usual and more preferred route to be taken.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

I see you've moved her up, however, I still cannot see how KleinxTate isn't the best for both of them. First off, they have the same affinity, so the fact that they match each other's bonuses is already a plus. Second, it's Klein's fastest after Clarine and Tate's fastest after Juno and Thany. Third, Clarine and Dieck benefit more from an earlier support with Rutger rather than wait for Klein since it's Rutger's crit vs. Klein's defense, but Clarine relies on dodging anyway and I'm pretty sure Dieck's durable enough. Fourth, support triangle is better than support square because you only have to rely on three units being together and not four, giving you more leniance in where you send people (If Klein needs to fight fliers while the others go do something else better, you can do it at no support cost). Lastly, I don't see how Klein would even consider going A Percival when Tate's around since it's slower, starts later, and the bonuses are worse.

And now I'm done. I'll come up with an analysis for Cath next. (Why the hell is she, like, 3 full tiers below Chad and Astol anyway?) I know I said I'd go for Thany > Zeiss, but I've lost interest in that.

Umm...A. Rutger is still getting A Deick B Clarine...B. Clarine and Klein's are actually on par a support with Deick, his supports are slow.Deick's not getting a C from Clarine any later than Klein actually...C. This means he has a great support option along with giving more lineancy with other units supporting otherwise early on. All this considered, he's got more support options and all are better than fielding Tate. Also, Deick would like all the hit he can get to use his great blades. All at the cost of 4 crit, Deick's not crying over it. Yes, Clarine relies on dodge, but this allows a full A B support for 5 more avoid than usual AND gives her the same defense boost. All at the cost of 9 crit. Everyone always underestimates Klein's support speed and ice affinity...Ice isn't all that bad really.

Cath is low for A. Not doing anything special apart from Ashtor and Chad, B. Is much worse than them anyways for having crap durability, C. No good supports, all slow anyways (Same with Ashtor, but he starts off good right off the bat for what ya need done), and D. Comes at a time when the next chests we see are in ballistae heavy Ilia or the hellhole that is Sacae's Roartz chapter, essentially replacing our thieves with keys. Not to mention stealing her lockpick from her gives you more lockpicks than you'll ever need and killing her makes LOTS of future chapters a lot more stress free.

[Lord Raven]

Rutger is definitely not getting A Dieck B Clarine. He's getting A Clarine B Dieck. Seriously, you can't make Clarine move THAT much and his support with Dieck is slow as shit.

[Florete]

I could say Astol doesn't do anything special Chad and Cath don't do and it would make just as much sense. Point is, she can do thievery while 90% of the cast can't. I'm not trying to argue her over Chad and Astol (for now...I'd actually say she's > Astol), I just don't think she should be any more than a tier below them.

First off, supports. She's Geese's fastest and best support, so he'll gladly take an A with her because the bonuses are sexy (full atk + full avoid + some hit Geese definitely wants). Then she can fill B with Chad himself because Chad probably doesn't have anything but A Lugh unless Ellen is in play, but the bonuses are worse so he might wait for Cath anyway. Astol's best partner is Igrene, and she's already bad, so he's running around supportless.

Join time. Cath joins in a chapter with a bunch of axemen that have terrible hit on her, so she can grab some levels easily since she has that sexy experience boost and swords. The downside is that she gets killed in one shot, but take a look at Chad's join time; It's almost the same, except the guys he's being OHKO'd by wield lances, so he might miss them and they have a much better shot of hitting him. I don't remember Astol's join time, so I can't say much about that.

Stats next. Cath has inferior, yet similar, bases to Astol but is 5 levels lower. She also kills him in growths, beating him in everything except 10% HP (but 80% still rocks) and 5% defense, as well as tying Resistance. She has 220% avoid growth as opposed to Astol's 115% (That's nearly double) and ties Chad, and with her supports that shoots up higher.

Before you attack the support, be aware that supporting Geese actually makes her a fairly respectable combat unit since her avoid rocks, so she can take on pretty much any axe user and possibly sword users. Geese also wants this, and since he has a tough time building anything, he'd like to have this support even if he won't have the bonuses all the time.

Not to mention stealing her lockpick from her gives you more lockpicks than you'll ever need and killing her makes LOTS of future chapters a lot more stress free.

I don't see how that's relevant. Recruit her soon and there's no more worries. At most, this "LOTS" of future chapters amounts to two.

I'd never try to argue her > Chad, but I don't see what makes her so low. Another unit being better doesn't make her suck if that unit is great anyway.

[Lord Raven]

Except Geese is probably like somewhere in the lower half of the mid tiers at the very best.

[dondon151]

(for now...I'd actually say she's > Astol),

Please tell me you're joking. Base level Astol ties or beats base level Cath in every stat except skill, and Astol has the advantage of greater availability and one more Western Isles chapter on his side. Cath being able to grow faster doesn't help much when she has no concrete durability to back her up in combat, and her support list can't make up for anything. At that point, Astol will be a few levels past base anyway.

I just don't think she should be any more than a tier below them.

I'd probably agree with this.

First off, supports. She's Geese's fastest and best support, so he'll gladly take an A with her because the bonuses are sexy (full atk + full avoid + some hit Geese definitely wants). Then she can fill B with Chad himself because Chad probably doesn't have anything but A Lugh unless Ellen is in play, but the bonuses are worse so he might wait for Cath anyway. Astol's best partner is Igrene, and she's already bad, so he's running around supportless.

CathxGeese takes 39 turns for C, 99 turns for B, and 179 turns for A. Then, Cath will either be making use of her thieving utilities away from combat or she won't even be deployed if there's nothing to thief on the map, so the benefits of the support are small (this is true for all thieves; I think thief supports are way overrated in this game). CathxChad B takes 59 turns for C and 119 turns for B. These are all very slow supports; even though an FE6 player can afford slower supports than an FE7 player, this is asking for too much. For all intents and purposes, Cath beats Astol in supports by such a miniscule margin that it almost doesn't matter.

Join time. Cath joins in a chapter with a bunch of axemen that have terrible hit on her, so she can grab some levels easily since she has that sexy experience boost and swords. The downside is that she gets killed in one shot, but take a look at Chad's join time; It's almost the same, except the guys he's being OHKO'd by wield lances, so he might miss them and they have a much better shot of hitting him. I don't remember Astol's join time, so I can't say much about that.

Cath's chance of dying when attacking an enemy is roughly the same as Chad's chance of dying when killing an enemy. Also, Cath joins in a chapter with axemen, but won't be recruited until about 70% of the map is cleared. Meanwhile, both Astol and Chad have access to chapters 10, 11, and 12, and thrive on the axe users there. Chad even gets a few more early-game axe user infested chapters to his advantage. Join times themselves don't matter much; Chad and Astol benefit from Cath's join time as much as she does, plus they get the benefits of previous favorable maps.

Stats next. Cath has inferior, yet similar, bases to Astol but is 5 levels lower. She also kills him in growths, beating him in everything except 10% HP (but 80% still rocks) and 5% defense, as well as tying Resistance. She has 220% avoid growth as opposed to Astol's 115% (That's nearly double) and ties Chad, and with her supports that shoots up higher.

Astol has more levels by the time that Cath joins and she has to work her way out of her base stats to compensate for her inferiority. This can be troublesome; she needs a fair bit of combat to catch up. Then it means that she's performing as well as Astol except with much more effort needed. By the time she outperforms Astol by any significant margin, thief combat is totally obsolete. Avoid growths matter little when considering that by the time speed caps, avoid growth drops to less than 1 point per level up and become rather insignificant, even if Astol's luck growth sucks.

Before you attack the support, be aware that supporting Geese actually makes her a fairly respectable combat unit since her avoid rocks, so she can take on pretty much any axe user and possibly sword users. Geese also wants this, and since he has a tough time building anything, he'd like to have this support even if he won't have the bonuses all the time.

How respectable of a combat unit? Is Cath worth fielding for combat and her support over another unit, who might perform better even without supports? If Cath can pick up an A with Geese, why does he have trouble picking up any another unit, whose supports are only 19 turns slower?

Another unit being better doesn't make her suck if that unit is great anyway.

Agreed.

[Florete]

Is Cath worth fielding for combat and her support over another unit, who might perform better even without supports? If Cath can pick up an A with Geese, why does he have trouble picking up any another unit, whose supports are only 19 turns slower?

You're agreeing with me on my main idea (Cath moving up at least) so I'll just respond to this by saying Geese doesn't really have much else for good support options. His support with Cath is not only his fastest (not by much, but it still is) and it gives him better bonuses than any of his other options unless you want to hype Echidna's hit vs. Cath's atk. Still, for maps where a Thief is deployed (there are plenty, since this game has lots of chests, doors, items to steal, etc.) having a Thief with supports that might even be able to engage in combat > a supportless Thief, and probably better than your 12th best unit at least.

I realize saying she's > Astol sounds far off, which is why I'm not really pursuing it for now, but I think it's possible.

Whoa whoa whoa, what's Elphin doing in lower mid while Lalum is in High? Sure, she's > him, but that's quite a huge gap you've got there. The only significant difference in the routes (other than the two of them) is Echidna and Bartre (maybe Gonzales if you want to hype 6 levels). Echidna is good, but it's not like she's guaranteed to be in play anyway, and if she isn't, Elphin fills Lalum's roll almost exactly, it's just that his supports are slightly worse but the class isn't supporting much anyway. I can hardly see the two being separated at all, much less by any more than a tier.

Going back a few pages, I know I said I'd drop it, but I fail to see how Thany > Zeiss is at all "silly." Even if she's not doing awesome statistically (haven't really checked it yet), she still has plenty of utility with flight and 16 aid, and lots of availability on him. I remember Reikken coming up with an argument for it as well, but he's not here right now...

Edited March 19, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Is Douglas really helping out more late than Zealot is early and mid game? If you used Zealot up until the point Douglas joined (You've likely got several unpromoted characters up until Chapter 16, so he'd be at least tolerable the whole way until then), he's not even really much worse for awhile. Lots more Speed and Move, sword use, possible support (If either Treck or Fir is not played, Zealot is Noah's only option for a B support. Treck gets a B or A with Noah depending on whether Noah is supporting Fir, and his non-Zealot options for a second support take forever.) Much less Strength and durability, obviously (though the Speed difference is such that if Zealot doesn't double the enemy, Douglas may well be getting doubled), and probably losing overall, but not getting completely shut out IMO, which is telling seeing as how Zealot was actually decent for awhile before this and best on team for awhile before that.

Cath > Astol seems pretty crazy to me, but the gap between them is probably much less than the gap between a High Tier combat unit and a Bottom Tier combat unit. I'd certainly move her at least into Low.

The gap between Ellen and Saul seems questionable, the one between Elphin and Lalum even morso, and Lugh might be more deserving of Upper-Middle considering his rather scrubby beginnings.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Destiny Puck

[grandjackal]

Concerning Cath...lessee...she levels quick....she can easily max speed right quick and get high luck, so like...20 times 2 plus 20-25 is 60-65, add in 1 full avoid makes it 75-80...That's actually pretty good. Geese really does have no one else...Perhaps I underestimated her indeed. She can go up to...lower mid sound nice? Her join time really does pound her, as her supports aren't instantaneous.

Concerning Thany: No. Her avoid can end up ok at best thanks to her bogus affinity, her bogus affinity at best boosts her offense to par, if even that, her weapon problems are even worse now thanks to worse con than Tate, not exactly durable at the start and only really builds speed and luck, her speed still screwed over thanks to her lousy con. I see no reason to raise her at all. It's easier to just not use her. She's useful at transporting stuff around, but any cav can do that. If Reikken would oblige by showing me the light, then by all means lemme see what's so special about her.

Concerning Elphin: Very well then, since the route thing is now of no concern to ranks (meaning I should probably make Shin skyrocket), he can be considered in reality. He's got pretty nice supports with the Etrurians, gives nice bonuses with light...It doesn't stop Lalum for being a better version of him though. He'll be a tier lower. Fair enough?

Concerning Zealot and Douglas: Let's analyze them together. Zealot has only 2 realistic avoid supports. Noah's one, but he'd prefer an A with Fir and a B with Treck. Next is Tate, who's bleh anyways, even though this is a pretty decent support. Yunno is lol, and his other supports don't help him at all because wind affinity only gives crit to his darkness. Needless to say, if he has any supports, they aren't helping him much. Zealot's also got bad luck, so he can easily get crit by various enemies. He eventually slows thanks to his meh growths and slow leveling, so he'll be plenty weaker by the time Douglas shows up. Douglas has killer defense, and has viable supports in Lalum (fast, lightningxlightning is delicious, helping her get more defense and avoid with Echidna and becoming untouchable while giving him a nice defense boost and crit to help with his offense), Cecilia (for full defense and giving him extra avoid which he wouldn't mind) and other less useful/viable supports. Auto-A rank in all his weapons is also a nice thing. Let's not forget he's just a walking god in Sacae. Does decently well as a tank afterwards. Douglas really isn't that bad. Zealot is just another cav you have by the time Allen, Lance and Marcus are equal to him anyways. He helps for a bit, but he goes trash pretty quick, while Douglas actually has a nice range of use.

So on the list is : Raising Cath, Shin and Elphin, Debate of Douglas Vs. Zealot.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Eh I dunno if this will affect anything but uh... Killing Sue will does not mean you avoid Sacae.

[grandjackal]

Eh I dunno if this will affect anything but uh... Killing Sue will does not mean you avoid Sacae.

Considering I already moved Shin now we don't give a damn about routes, it's rather pointless. Reason he's not higher is because he still takes you down a harder path, but if we're taking the harder path, we still can go through them efficiently. Just a tad harder is all.

NOTE: I should make a seperate route Gonzales placement for his seperate forms of power. Should I do the same for Shin in the Wait for Ilia (WfI) and immediate use (IU)?

Edited March 19, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Mekkah]

I guess I saved this at least

Ward wtfrapes a lot of people above him in offense, durability and supports when they are together. His main problem is his negative contribution before that...but I think that is somewhat exaggerated anyway, especially since there's no longer a combat rank for him to hurt, and he is forced throughout Ch2-Ch5. Meaning no reason not to have him throw around Hand Axes, at the very least. Since he's one of my favourite low tier dudes in FE6, let's see how he holds up.

So looking at the blast of people above him:

-Lower Mid Tier-

Bartre

OJ

Noah

Treck

Cecilia

Cath

Zeis

Niime

Geese (Echidna route)

Zealot

Garret

Geese (Bartre route)

Hue

-Low Tier-

Ward

Going bottom to top:

Hugh joins when Ward is about to promote through the Secret Shop Hero Crest. Let's just make Hugh do the same.

15/1 Hugh

Aircalibur: 25.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 115.8 hit, 6.3 crit - - 36.0 avo, 30.0 hp, 11.0 def, 11.0 res, 10.0 critavo

On Flier: 41.0 atk

20/1 Ward (B Dieck, B Lot)

Killer Axe: 33.9 atk, 10.6 AS, 109.0 hit, 51.8 crit - - 53.3 avo, 49.5 hp, 13.4 def, 2.9 res, 22.1 critavo

Hand Axe: 29.9 atk, 10.6 AS, 94.0 hit, 21.8 crit

Iron Bow: 28.9 atk, 10.6 AS, 124.0 hit

On Flier: 40.9 atk

For other parameters, Ward benefits supporters with hax bonuses that are around on the frontline a lot, while Hugh has staves. We'll cancel that out for the time being. Note that Ward has Echidna for a back-up partner if one of these is not in play or full or whatever.

I thought Hugh would get utterly shitfaced, but it's not as bad as I thought. Hugh has a 2.6 AS win. Here's a list of what that does for him:

Samples from 16x:

- Hugh would avoid being doubled by two Snipers (14 and 15 Spd), but they lose 2 AS from Longbow.

- Hugh avoids being doubled by four Mercs (14 and 15 AS)

- Hugh avoids being doubled by one Paladin (14 AS), Ward is shaky on not being doubled by that

- Hugh doubles Cavaliers with Steel Lance equipped (11, 12 or 13 Spd, lose 4 AS). There's some with Axereavers (lose only 2 AS), but Ward doesn't like those anyway. If they go Javelin, his advantage is gone.

- Hugh doubles Steel Bow Archers (10 Spd, -2 from Steel Bow)

- Hugh avoids being doubled by Windam (14 AS)

Interestingly, Ward can take a Speedwing pretty easily in this context, since Hugh is so damn expensive, and on one of the routes on the Western Isles he and Lot are the sole people who can get those Speedwings. That cuts Hugh's Spd win to less than half a point, and since they're extremely borderline on getting doubled or doubling, that is very significant. In addition, there's Halberd to consider for the horse enemies. And both double Knights, and both single practically everything else.

Overall, the AS advantage is minimal. Ward's other leads (~8 atk, up to about ~40 crit) speak for themselves. He barely loses hit in Killer vs Aircalibur, but if hit is an issue he can switch to Iron Bow. Hugh has 1~2 range, but Ward can do that with Hand Axe, or Iron Bow can just do 2, and eventually he will get Longbow for 2~3.

For durability, he has almost 20 more hp and avo, and 2.4 more def. The 8 res lead for Hugh can't begin to compare to that - they'd both have to get hit by 3 magic attacks before he's even through Ward's hp lead.

So Ward > Hugh seems pretty decisive.

We move up to Geese (Bartre route).

12/0 Ward (C Dieck, C Lot)

Iron Axe: 22.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 89.0 hit, 10.5 crit - - 32.5 avo, 35.5 hp, 7.0 def, 1.5 res, 13.5 critavo

10/0 Geese

Iron Axe: 18.0 atk, 9.0 AS, 87.3 hit, 4.3 crit - - 27.0 avo, 33.0 hp, 8.0 def, 0.0 res, 9.0 critavo

They're surprisingly close. Most of it is 4 atk vs 2 AS. I don't have any samples from Bartre route, but Echidna route enemies should be roughly the same.

Fighters seem to range from 9 to 12 Spd, and either use Steel or Hand. The only way Geese can double is a 9 Spd Fighter with Steel Axe equipped, and Ward never doubles. The vast majority has over 10 Spd in my samples, and at least half of them also has at least one axe that isn't Steel, and they like attacking at range. There really isn't anything else in 11A's initial enemy selection that Geese can double.

Geese has a significantly better Spd growth though (20%), but the rest of their growths are about the same, more or less. Geese can certainly match up to Ward when it comes to supports, having Lalum and Echidna for a support triangle, though Lalum doesn't benefit much, and Ward has Echidna as well. Geese doesn't get more than 13 AS before promotion, which happens to be the exact same AS as 15/1 Hugh. Stats around this point aren't very different, so you can count on him doubling Steel Archers, Cavs and Wyverns, while Ward falls short.

At promo point:

20/1 Geese (B Echidna, B Lalum)

Killer Axe: 31.0 atk, 14.0 AS, 118.3 hit, 82.8 crit - - 61.0 avo, 46.5 hp, 15.0 def, 3.0 res, 23.0 critavo

Hand Axe: 27.0 atk, 14.0 AS, 103.3 hit, 52.8 crit

20/1 Ward (B Dieck, B Lot)

Killer Axe: 33.9 atk, 10.6 AS, 109.0 hit, 51.8 crit - - 53.3 avo, 49.5 hp, 13.4 def, 2.9 res, 22.1 critavo

Hand Axe: 29.9 atk, 10.6 AS, 94.0 hit, 21.8 crit

Iron Bow: 28.9 atk, 10.6 AS, 124.0 hit

On Flier: 40.9 atk

The fact that Geese has about as much hit and crit with a Hand Axe as Ward does with a Killer should tell you enough. 8 avo + 1.6 def vs 3 hp is a tie, or else a slight win for Geese in durability. Ward does have a slight Atk win, but it matters little. Even though Geese doesn't double much better than Hugh (there's very few enemies with 10 AS for him to double), you can't really deny him his offense win due to that possibility of over 80% crit.

So I'd say Bartre route Geese > Ward > Hugh so far.

Next up is Garret, which is short and sweet. A snapshot of Garret's best possible point: before Ward promotes.

18/0 Ward (B Dieck, B Lot)

Killer Axe: 29.0 atk, 8.2 AS, 105.8 hit, 49.8 crit - - 47.6 avo, 40.0 hp, 9.8 def, 2.8 res, 21.2 critavo

--/1 Garret

Killer Axe: 28.0 atk, 10.0 AS, 96.8 hit, 66.3 crit - - 32.0 avo, 49.0 hp, 9.0 def, 4.0 res, 12.0 critavo

Interesting. Offense is 1 atk + 9 hit vs 1.8 AS + 16.5 crit. Looking at Ch15, pretty much everything either doubles both or neither, and they can't double anything, so the AS is worthless. If Garret has a win here, it's very small.

Durability is 15.6 avo, .8 def and 9.2 cev vs 9 hp and 1.2 res. That's quite clearly for Ward on the avo alone. The cev helps against that KE Merc, and .8 def stacks up when you have as much hp as these do.

I don't really see a need for anything beyond this. Ward's promo bonus is hax (bows, +2/+3 across the board, except hp which is a massive +6), he levels slightly faster, and Garret's supports might as well not exist while Ward might get an A with either Lot or Dieck.

Ward > Garret

EDIT: I was told later that I forgot to take into account HM Garret, but I don't think that made much of a difference.

The better question is if that avoid is reliable, rather than just better. 2 AS can also make a world of difference at this point.

It doesn't have to be reliable when you take as many hits as often as they do.

Repost of NM Garret vs 18/0 Ward:

18/0 Ward (B Dieck, B Lot)

Killer Axe: 29.0 atk, 8.2 AS, 105.8 hit, 49.8 crit - - 47.6 avo, 40.0 hp, 9.8 def, 2.8 res, 21.2 critavo

--/1 Garret

Killer Axe: 28.0 atk, 10.0 AS, 96.8 hit, 66.3 crit - - 32.0 avo, 49.0 hp, 9.0 def, 4.0 res, 12.0 critavo

From Ch16:

Aircalibur Mage, 24 atk/112 hit

74.44% true, 3HKO on Ward, 41.24% chance of dying in 3

92.20% true, 3HKO on Garret, 78.38% chance of dying in 3

Steel Axe Fighter, 30 atk/74 hit

13.78% true, 4HKO on Ward, chance of dying in 4 has trouble existing

35.70% true, 3HKO on Garret, 4.5% chance of dying in 3

Assuming the HM bonuses make Garret die in 4, or Ward gets defense screwed and now dies in 3, Ward now dies in little more than a fifth of a percent of the time after 3 hits. Garret now has a 1.6% chance of death in four hits. The winner is still Ward.

Last one for Garret vs Ward:

Killer Axe Fighter, 30 atk/87 hit

32.40% true, let's say 3HKO on Ward, chance of dying in 3 is 3.4%

59.95% true, let's say 4HKO on Garret, chance of dying in 4 is 12.92%

As you might have noticed, they're both borderline of being either 3HKOed or 4HKOed by a 30 atk melee enemy. This brings the interesting fact that a critical hit could mean the end for them. This guy has 35% crit, so around 14% disp crit on Ward, 23% disp crit on Garret. Ward's chance of getting critted, taking dodge into account, is around 4.5%. Garret's is 13.8%.

He's not getting supports, but if he can, he's getting Geese and Gonzales for overall crit slaughterfest thanks to berserker natural crit. 25+whatever the hell he has+killer axe bonus. Ward is hard timed to get over that hill.

It's impossible to get 25 crit out of his supports due to these supports being so uber slow, it'll be a 20 in endgame maybe. And again, I must note that I took the most favorable standpoint for Garret, namely before Ward's promotion, maybe final support level, and superior growths take over.

20/5 Ward - B Lot, B Dieck

Killer Axe: 35.9 atk, 11.4 AS, 113.5 hit, 52.7 crit - - 56.7 avo, 52.5 hp, 14.6 def, 3.1 res, 23.9 critavo

20/6 Garret (NM)

Killer Axe: 30.3 atk, 10.2 AS, 99.5 hit, 66.8 crit - - 33.1 avo, 52.5 hp, 9.7 def, 4.2 res, 12.7 critavo

I suppose HM works in favor of Garret on some occasions but...Ward is definitely winning here big time.

Zealot is more of a RD-ish comparison since Zealot is obviously hax when he joins, then falters at some point. I suppose it's interesting to note that Ward doesn't hit Zealot's base Spd until 20/13, and they have the same Spd growth. This one's a judgement call, but I'm tempted to give the win to Zealot.

No need to go over Geese again.

Niime gets whoamgpwnt. I really don't have to dig into the numbers here. When she joins, Ward has been contributing for like ~17 more maps (more or less, not really counting gaidens due to limited space, but the option is there). Niime doesn't have any valuable supports, she's arguably worse on concrete melee durability when Ward is at base level (28 hp/3 def vs 25 hp/5 def)...you'd really have to hype all those magicky things for Niime to win this one (1~2 range, Apocalypse, A staves).

Zeis is above Ward? Iono, Ward obviously chainsaws him when Zeis joins, but Zeis is a man of improvement. His growths aren't much better than Ward's, but he gains levels extremely fast, and he has more mobility...but that's canceled out by much shittier durability, especially against bows and magic. I think that with HM bonuses, Zeis about ties 20/1 Ward in Spd though, lol. Ward wins supports obviously, A Miledy alone isn't enough to beat the time advantage of Ward combined with 3 possible good partners.

So I'd say Ward > Zeis.

Cath is all about the thievery. I don't feel like digging into that. She can stay above him.

Cecilia is like a better version of Niime. She joins earlier, has better stats, better supports, Aircalibur, and better mobility. Ward wins combat, Cecilia wins utility, so this one is up for debate pretty much.

I'm think I'm not going to bother with anything above Cecilia. The Ilian Cavs have mobility and WTC, and decent support options with good characters. Bartre has been proven to be an improved version of Ward a while ago, with that Fir support and all. Oujay has a significant AS and hit advantage, but Ward owns him everywhere else (supports, durability, range, atk), so maybe that could be managed.

I think that tier is best reconstructed as

-Lower Mid Tier-

Bartre

OJ

Noah

Treck

Cecilia

Cath

Zealot

Ward

Geese (Echidna route)

Geese (Bartre route)

Zeis

Garret

Niime

Hugh

Edited June 10, 2009 by Mekkah

[Colonel M]

Let's just knock Cath down some pegs. Under Geese specifically.

Her sucky combat is her major detriment. "But Colonel, Thieves are for utility purposes!" Yes, I know. We'll get to that.

Seems to me that when she joins (around C13), she only has a few instances where Chests are left, and on her joining chapter it's possible we've already pilfered them. The Gaiden chapter doesn't have anything real important (two gems specifcally), but here comes Cath's major problem: keys can be bought. There's the Chest Key, which has 5 uses, and then there's the Door Key, which at least has 1 use. Overall, you don't really need a Thief once Cath joins (there are a few goodies, but that's about it), but I'm willing to place her under Geese because at least her thieving utility seems to outweigh the other's jointime or, in Hugh's case, rather insane cost.

[grandjackal]

FUCK!

Well the list has been severely altered...I'll try changing it back to how it was before time got compressed and we went into disc 4, but does anyone remember how the list was beforehand, just in case? Would help greatly.

[Colonel M]

Put this on the first post: http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmstats.html

It's the link to "some" of the HM enemy stats.

[grandjackal]

Can do, colonel.

Now, how good's your memory of the list?

[Colonel M]

Can do, colonel.

Now, how good's your memory of the list?

...All I can remember is Miredy > Percival > both Dancers. That's about it. >_>

[grandjackal]

...All I can remember is Miredy > Percival > both Dancers. That's about it. >_>

I do vaguely remember the dancers being in the same tier...

...Fuck, let's just wait for everyone else.

[dondon151]

Hugh's missing. He was somewhere in Low.

[grandjackal]

Good eye, dondon.

[Mekkah]

Lalum and Elphin were next to each other.

Zealot was right next to, either above or below Treck and Noah.