FE9 Tier List

[Dat Nick]

We shouldn't be weighing availability that highly.

You just said he's comparable to Mia with Rolf getting a mite more BEXP.

If he's NOT better than them, then how the hell is Mia so far ahead of them? Let's not create a double standard. Rolf and Mia need to be closer to each other on a tier list: Taking 20% less BEXP for roughly the same performance sure as hell does not create a tier gap.

[Vykan12]

It's not 20%, it only ammounts to that initially.

Keep in mind that if he hasn’t used BEXP since chapter 11, he’s now only using 15% of the total supply. If we play chapter 15 as stealth, now he’s only using 10%, which is his fair share. Or we could choose to give him more again, and maybe push him from lv 15/0 to close to promotion.

[Dat Nick]

k, thanks Vykan

that's just driving my point on Rolf needing to be closer to Mia even further home than it already was

[-Cynthia-]

You just said he's comparable to Mia with Rolf getting a mite more BEXP.

If he's NOT better than them, then how the hell is Mia so far ahead of them? Let's not create a double standard. Rolf and Mia need to be closer to each other on a tier list: Taking 20% less BEXP for roughly the same performance sure as hell does not create a tier gap.

There's a pretty huge difference between getting 8 levels of BEXP and getting 0, not a "mite".

Raising Rolf up because he can have subpar performance for a lot of chapters pretty much defies the notion that availability has to be positive for it to matter, which is what all tier lists are based on. Perhaps Rolf can become a positive after 5 more levels of BEXP, but then we're straying into the territory of ridiculous resource consumption. He's really limited by his class in terms of becoming a positive, having no enemy phase is bad, even if we do give him 8-14 levels of BEXP, which is a pretty big drain on resources no matter how you slice it. It's not like Rolf is the only oen wanting BEXP.

Edited July 23, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

There's a pretty huge difference between getting 8 levels of BEXP and getting 0, not a "mite".

Raising Rolf up because he can have subpar performance for a lot of chapters pretty much defies the notion that availability has to be positive for it to matter, which is what all tier lists are based on. Perhaps Rolf can become a positive after 5 more levels of BEXP, but then we're straying into the territory of ridiculous resoruce consumption.

Yet you are ignoring the fact that Lucia and Bastian are never good a single moment of their life. With similar favoritism, Rolf performs better due to performing more over time. Lucia and Bastian lose.

As with Janaff and Ulki, BEXP them all you want, won't fix their transform issues and rediculous numbers of weaknesses. They need BEXP too, their offense is bullshit as is.

[Dat Nick]

There's a pretty huge difference between getting 8 levels of BEXP and getting 0, not a "mite".

wtf? 7 BEXP worth of levels is 20% of it...and that's just the initial dump on him to make him suck less?

Raising Rolf up because he can have subpar performance for a lot of chapters pretty much defies the notion that availability has to be positive for it to matter, which is what all tier lists are based on. Perhaps Rolf can become a positive after 5 more levels of BEXP, but then we're straying into the territory of ridiculous resoruce consumption.

Now you're just taking my entire argument out of context. You yourself just proved that Rolf with a bit of BEXP pumped into him is very comparable to Mia with none. Obviously this is grounds for Mia>Rolf, but it's very poor grounds for a tier gap. Rolf needs to move up or Mia needs to move down.

[-Cynthia-]

wtf? 7 BEXP worth of levels is 20% of it...and that's just the initial dump on him to make him suck less?

You seem to have this weird impression that 20% is some insignificant amount, it's 1/5 of the team's total. Everyone in the game can use BEXP, and we're at a time where we want some. It pushes Oscar/Boyd/Ike/Kieran into Godmode more quickly, gets us to a point where we can Seal Mist/Ilyana/Soren/Rhys and gain combat/horse or staves. Nephenee, Marcia, Makalov, and Astrid have great potential but come in underleveled, Generals want it for KW levelups etc.

So Rolf takes up a signficant portion of this valuable resource, and guess what? He's still the worst member of the team(or close to it anyway) and not worth fielding. He isn't a positive of any kind.

Now you're just taking my entire argument out of context. You yourself just proved that Rolf with a bit of BEXP pumped into him is very comparable to Mia with none. Obviously this is grounds for Mia>Rolf, but it's very poor grounds for a tier gap. Rolf needs to move up or Mia needs to move down.

Requiring 20% less BEXP is grounds enough for a tier worth of difference.

Moving Rolf up on the basis of his availability seems to be rather stupid considering he isn't a positive ever. I mean if we're calling Rolf a "positive" that means every character is a positive during their availability, given how poorly he performs with 8 levels of BEXP. We might as well just tier the whole game by availability at this rate.

Edited July 23, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

You seem to have this weird impression that 20% is some insignificant amount, it's 1/5 of the team's total. Everyone in the game can use BEXP, and we're at a time where we want some. It pushes Oscar/Boyd/Ike/Kieran into Godmode more quickly, gets us to a point where we can Seal Mist/Ilyana/Soren/Rhys and gain combat/horse or staves. Nephenee, Marcia, Makalov, and Astrid have great potential but come in underleveled, Generals want it for KW levelups etc.

It shrinks to 10%, no more than his fair share, in a few chapters. Oscar/Boyd are epic enough to live with being a couple levels behind for two chapters.

So Rolf takes up a signficant portion of this valuable resource, and guess what? He's still the worst member of the team(or close to it anyway) and not worth fielding.

And Mia's very comparable to him, as you've just proved...so why the hell isn't Mia in bottom or like, very close to it?

Requiring 20% less BEXP is grounds enough for a tier worth of difference.

It's only 20% for like, two chapters...

Moving Rolf up on the basis of his availability seems to be rather stupid considering he isn't a positive ever. I mean if we're calling Rolf a "positive" that means every character is a positive during their availability, given how poorly he performs with 8 levels of BEXP. We might as well just tier the whole game by availability at this rate.

Will you stop getting sidetracked with this availability shit? I never mentioned that once in my argument, the only things I ever mentioned was his combat performance relevant to Mia, using the numbers YOU provided.

[Vykan12]

Moving Rolf up on the basis of his availability seems to be rather stupid considering he isn't a positive ever.

???

20/5 Rolf (silver bow): 35 hp, 30 atk, 25 crit, 19.5 AS, 15 def, 10 res, 52.5 avo

Killer bow: 26 atk, 55 crit

Laguz bow: 37 effective mt

Brave bow: 27 atk

With the silver, he can ORKO 23/54 (43%) of chapter 21 enemies naturally. With the brave bow he gets 80%, essentially only missing out on Ena and knights/generals (ironically he can one round Katasai though). The killer bow lets him have an 80% kill reliability on anything he can 4HKO, which is again everything except knights + ena. In addition, we can add in supports for an extra attack point which lets him borderline kill a few extra fighters/warriors/halbs.

If Rolf isn't a remotely helpful unit the second half of his existence, I don't know who is.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

???

20/5 Rolf (silver bow): 35 hp, 30 atk, 25 crit, 19.5 AS, 15 def, 10 res, 52.5 avo

Killer bow: 26 atk, 55 crit

Laguz bow: 37 effective mt

Brave bow: 27 atk

With the silver, he can ORKO 23/54 (43%) of chapter 21 enemies naturally. With the brave bow he gets 80%, essentially only missing out on Ena and knights/generals (ironically he can one round Katasai though). The killer bow lets him have an 80% kill reliability on anything he can 4HKO, which is again everything except knights + ena. In addition, we can add in supports for an extra attack point which lets him borderline kill a few extra fighters/warriors/halbs.

If Rolf isn't a remotely helpful unit the second half of his existence, I don't know who is.

Rolf may have Player Phase offense better than some units above him, but his Enemy Phase is worse(or equal to Shinon I guess) than anyone. This is pretty important, since we're usually facing more enemies in the enemy Phase than they Player Phase. He's also unremarkable durably, there are a lot of people ahead of him. Rolf doesn't necessarily have to be the worst unit at all times to be a negative anyway.

I would also argue that Elincia/Lucia/Bastian are "remotely helpful" as well. Almost every unit is helpful to some regard(in PoR anyway), it's how they compare to the rest of the team.

@B2BD We either use the BEXP earlier on and it's a more significant portion and Rolf sucks less, or we use use it later on and he's worse for more chapters. I doubt Vykan's claim that Rolf can continue leveling decently at only 9/0 with only CEXP anyway, due to his combat issues(3RKOing and getting 2RKOd back is bad).

Edited July 23, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Rodykitty]

An archer killing one enemy efficiently and safely on the player phase is one less enemy on the enemy phase, making everyone else's enemy phase superior, and even everyone else's player phase superior since it frees up spots on the map and gives those asking for a heal to those that need it.

Sure, it's not as good as a tankish combat unit being able to take out many on the enemy phase and only needing one heal, but it's certainly much better than a unit that can't do much on the enemy phase without keeling over anyway, and whose same bad durability forces said character into a poor enemy phase if he isn't healed after fighting an enemy.

[-Cynthia-]

An archer killing one enemy efficiently and safely on the player phase is one less enemy on the enemy phase, making everyone else's enemy phase superior, and even everyone else's player phase superior since it frees up spots on the map and gives those asking for a heal to those that need it.

Sure, it's not as good as a tankish combat unit being able to take out many on the enemy phase and only needing one heal, but it's certainly much better than a unit that can't do much on the enemy phase without keeling over anyway, and whose same bad durability forces said character into a poor enemy phase if he isn't healed after fighting an enemy.

That's true, but I would argue that Lucia and Bastian are similar enough statistically to Rol that their better enemy phase does make a difference. He is a lot better in combat that Elincia, but she has heals/flight.

Anyway, I may have mistated my position. I'm fine with Rolf getting BEXP, but I feel that Lucia/Bastian/Elincia should also get something to compensate, otherwise it's not a fair comparison (we favorited Rolf). Or we could not give them anything, but then they only have to be close to Rolf in order to win, as he's consumed more resources than they have. Mainly though, I just don't see how Rolf's availability can be considered a positive, and thus it doesn't really count for anything IMO. I'm not really sure why this is being considered different from most FEs, generally characters that don't perform well over their availability don't get credit for it (Wil, Wolt, etc.). Perhaps it's because we can "fix" it with BEXP, but even with a moderate amount of BEXP, Rolf wasn't very good IMO, and there is an opportunity cost associated with BEXP.

Edited July 23, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Rolf may have Player Phase offense better than some units above him, but his Enemy Phase is worse(or equal to Shinon I guess) than anyone.

Not every unit even makes that much use of enemy phase. If you have bad durability like Soren or Largo, you'll effectively want to limit your E. phase as much as possible to the point where it's nothing more than a minor advantage compared to Rolf. Or you might have especially low movement (eg/ Brom, Gatrie, any mage) that inherently limits how many enemies you can take on. You also don't want sub-par attackers having big enemy phases since you could've put a better unit in their position for much better results. It's only your very best fielded units that want an active enemy phase.

He's also unremarkable durably, there are a lot of people ahead of him.

Well since we're limiting his enemy phase exposure to begin with, the fact that he attacks at range makes his durability a minimal concern. And going by the 20/5 stats I posted, his durability is actually pretty good. Chapter 21 enemies range from 20-29 atk and 80-110 hit, so Rolf's only getting 3-7HKOed while usually facing less than 50 display hit. That's more than enough to act as a failsafe if enemies manage to attack him.

[Florete]

Anyway, I may have mistated my position. I'm fine with Rolf getting BEXP, but I feel that Lucia/Bastian/Elincia should also get something to compensate, otherwise it's not a fair comparison (we favorited Rolf). Or we could not give them anything, but then they only have to be close to Rolf in order to win, as he's consumed more resources than they have. Mainly though, I just don't see how Rolf's availability can be considered a positive, and thus it doesn't really count for anything IMO. I'm not really sure why this is being considered different from most FEs, generally characters that don't perform well over their availability don't get credit for it (Wil, Wolt, etc.). Perhaps it's because we can "fix" it with BEXP, but even with a moderate amount of BEXP, Rolf wasn't very good IMO, and there is an opportunity cost associated with BEXP.

The problem with this is that by the time you get Lucia/Bastian/Elincia, they'll take a lot more BEXP than Rolf did to become good due to being much higher in level. Also, I still think this BEXP consumption thing is being blown out of proportion in its entirety. As long as there's still enough BEXP for everyone who needs it (which, according to Vykan's calculations, there is) it's only a minor negative that Rolf is taking more than his fair share at one time. What he turns into in just a few chapters should clearly override that.

[-Cynthia-]

The problem with this is that by the time you get Lucia/Bastian/Elincia, they'll take a lot more BEXP than Rolf did to become good due to being much higher in level. Also, I still think this BEXP consumption thing is being blown out of proportion in its entirety. As long as there's still enough BEXP for everyone who needs it (which, according to Vykan's calculations, there is) it's only a minor negative that Rolf is taking more than his fair share at one time. What he turns into in just a few chapters should clearly override that.

We also have more BEXP available by the time they arrive though. It's not as if Lucia really wants BEXP anyway, all she needs are her supports fielded(even 1 would be good) so she can have lots of avoid, and thus enough durability to leverage her enemy phase lead over Rolf. Elincia could use the BEXP (she's also underleveled at jointime), and Bastian could a Speedwing and probably some BEXP too.

It's highly debatable who "needs" BEXP and who doesn't, the point is that everyone gains some benefit out of it, some gain very large benefits, Rolf taking it is a cost any way you put it. I'm rather unsure when exactly Rolf turns into something resembling an average unit, it's certainly not Ch11 though. Remember that we have to wall Rolf off (or else he will get attacked by any 1 range units and most likely die), just so he can use his subpar offense. He's definitely a negative for a while, even with the BEXP.

I will concede Rolf>Bastian, since it appears that in a direct statistical comparison, Rolf is superior at Bastian's jointime. I'm unsure about Lucia though, since she doubles more than Rolf does, has better enemy phase offense and ways to fix her durability so she can use it (Runesword, supports). I don't think Rolf's performance outshines Elincia's healing utility, but that's always tough to judge.

Edited July 23, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

We also have more BEXP available by the time they arrive though. It's not as if Lucia really wants BEXP anyway, all she needs are her supports fielded(even 1 would be good) so she can have lots of avoid, and thus enough durability to leverage her enemy phase lead over Rolf. Elincia could use the BEXP (she's also underleveled at jointime), and Bastian could a Speedwing and probably some BEXP too.

For Lucia to even have supports is a bit of an issue, though. Bastian and Janaff are not very good, and if Ilyana is in play, she could already be supporting Zihark/Mordecai/Gatrie by now.

It's highly debatable who "needs" BEXP and who doesn't, the point is that everyone gains some benefit out of it, some gain very large benefits, Rolf taking it is a cost any way you put it. I'm rather unsure when exactly Rolf turns into something resembling an average unit, it's certainly not Ch11 though. Remember that we have to wall Rolf off (or else he will get attacked by any 1 range units and most likely die), just so he can use his subpar offense. He's definitely a negative for a while, even with the BEXP.

Most characters only ever need enough BEXP to cap off a level before a map. Some that come underleveled need more immediately to get off the ground. Rolf is like them, only he takes more than most, but that's why he's Bottom tier.

I'm unsure about Lucia though, since she doubles more than Rolf does, has better enemy phase offense and ways to fix her durability so she can use it (Runesword, supports).

Lucia joins in Ch. 24 with 23 Spd. 20/8 Rolf with some usage of a +Spd band has ~22 Spd. The only enemy Lucia can double that Rolf can't is Rikard, and there's one 20 AS SM that neither double. Lucia does not double much more than Rolf, at least not enough for it to really matter.

Personally, I'm only pushing for Rolf > Lucia. Since you conceded Rolf > Bastian, I left that out, and I'm not quite sure I can roll with Rolf > Elincia.

I should also mention that Rolf does have some supports on his side. Jackal explained it a bit, but I'll go more in-depth 1-by-1.

Rhys - The only one Rhys might want over Rolf is Titania, but Rolf only wants B Rhys anyway. Mia and Ulki are bad, and Kieran is the same speed and same affinity, only later and with a greater move difference.

Shinon - Highly unlikely both will be played at the same time. Pass

Marcia - A bit tougher, but again, he only wants B. Marcia can take Kieran for similar movement, but it's the same bonuses and is slower as well as starting later. Tanith is a more likely A support for sure, and there's not much reason for Marcia to take Gatrie over Rolf. This is the possible second option.

Mist - Also fairly unlikely due to everyone else being better for her, but a B isn't too terrible still. She does have a few Hit issues that Rolf helps with, and +5 avoid is always nice. Overall, not likely, but possible.

Tauroneo - If the dude is played, he has no one else. Well, there's Largo, but that's later and for the same bonuses.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire
Support stuff

[-Cynthia-]

For Lucia to even have supports is a bit of an issue, though. Bastian and Janaff are not very good, and if Ilyana is in play, she could already be supporting Zihark/Mordecai/Gatrie by now.

I am aware that Lucia having a support is an issue, but Ilyana having a slot open is far from an impossibility, as Mordecai or Zihark could be full themselves (Mist/Stefan) and (Muarim/Brom) certainly.

Bastian and Janaff are bad, but that doesn't mean they'll never be fielded. Let me try to calculate the odds of Lucia getting a support.

Let's say the odds of Ilyana being in play are about 50%(she's prety average). We do know that Lucia is in play, so that increases the likelihood of Ilyana leavign a lot open for her and there is the possibility of Ilyana's options not beign in play/being full. Ilyana does like Lucia's boost, so let's say this has a 25% chance of happening.

Janaff is pretty bad, but again, we know we're using Lucia and both become better when the other's in play. I'll say Janaff has about a 25% chance of being fielded(if he and Lucia are in play they are supporting).

Bastian is like Janaff, but less likely, let's say 15%.

So the odds of one of these events happening is (.25+.25+.15)= 65%

So I would say Lucia's chances of getting a support are better than not.

You might argue that fielding Bastian/Janaff or Ilyana saving a spot is favoritism, but remember that we favorited Rolf with some BEXP back in the day, so it's only fair. Plus, fielding them really isn't that much of a hassle, since lategame maps often ahve more slots than we have units (Lucia's forced on Ch24, 19 slots on Ch26 etc.)

For the record, Lucia(A Janaff) usually faces about 20% true against enemies she had WTD against, 10% ish with WTN and she is often facing no hit when she has WTA. Even the most accurate enemies won't be going above 50% true, so her chances of death will often be lower than Rolf's, she have enough durability to leverage her enemy phase lead at any rate.

Obviously Lucia becomes nearly invincible with 2 supports factored in, but this is unlikely, although possible. Again, their arguably favoritism, but if Rolf is allowed favoritism so is Lucia.

Lucia joins in Ch. 24 with 23 Spd. 20/8 Rolf with some usage of a +Spd band has ~22 Spd. The only enemy Lucia can double that Rolf can't is Rikard, and there's one 20 AS SM that neither double. Lucia does not double much more than Rolf, at least not enough for it to really matter.

Rolf also does not hit much harder than Lucia, not enough for it to really matter. Remember that even on the few foes that Rolf KOs in fewer rounds, Lucia has about a 50% chance of killing anyway due to crit. On later chapters, there are SM's + Cats. Lucia doubles that Rolf can't.

I'm a little skeptical about Rolf's levels myself, seeing how he performed at 9/0 makes me question whether he can really get over a level of CEXP a chapter.

Personally, I'm only pushing for Rolf > Lucia. Since you conceded Rolf > Bastian, I left that out, and I'm not quite sure I can roll with Rolf > Elincia.

It's all very dependent on whether Lucia gets a support or not. Personally, I think it's rather unfair to deny Lucia the chance of any supports, especially when we're giving Rolf Rhys and possibly Marcia, which are either somewhat unlikely (Rhys is eh) or is a deviation from partners that would prefer (Marcia wants Tanith/Kieran).

Tauroeneo is much like Janaff, Mist is just not a good idea due to other options. In general though, supports fix Lucia's main problem (durability), they can't fix Rolf's Enemy Phase.

Edited July 23, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

I am aware that Lucia having a support is an issue, but Ilyana having a slot open is far from an impossibility, as Mordecai or Zihark could be full themselves (Mist/Stefan) and (Muarim/Brom) certainly.

Mordecai will most definitely take Ilyana over Stefan. Def + hit > hit. It's also faster and starts sooner.

It's more of a toss-up for Zihark, but being 2/3 options is still hurting Lucia's chances.

Bastian and Janaff are bad, but that doesn't mean they'll never be fielded. Let me try to calculate the odds of Lucia getting a support....

Only, it doesn't really work that way. You can't really assign number values like that to units. You say Janaff has a 25% chance of being in play, which is 1/4 of the time. There are 43 PC's in this, and he currently is listed as #35, so that's giving him more like an 8/43 chance to be played, which is ~19%. Bastian would be 2/43 (1/43 if we assume Rolf > him, but w/e), which is ~5%. Keeping your 25% for Ilyana, that's bringing it to 49%, which is about half the time, and for her to get just one support, possibly only B if it's Ilyana. Of course, you could say my numbers are skewed against Lucia, but that's the problem with assigning numerical values in the first place.

Even your own number of 65% to get a single partner is not very good at all.

You might argue that fielding Bastian/Janaff or Ilyana saving a spot is favoritism, but remember that we favorited Rolf with some BEXP back in the day, so it's only fair. Plus, fielding them really isn't that much of a hassle, since lategame maps often ahve more slots than we have units (Lucia's forced on Ch24, 19 slots on Ch26 etc.)

Your problem here is that you're fielding units just to give out supports, which is favoritism on its own, but also means they have no reason to support Lucia since they don't care about bonuses themselves. Janaff could easily be helping Oscar already if that's what he's meant to do (probably a better option for the Hawk if he's in play, anyway). Volke has no options other than Bastian, so he'd take that, and Makalov would respect the avoid boost as well.

Obviously Lucia becomes nearly invincible with 2 supports factored in, but this is unlikely, although possible. Again, their arguably favoritism, but if Rolf is allowed favoritism so is Lucia.

Never said it wasn't allowed, but if Lucia has a 49-65% chance of getting just one support partner while we haven't even factored in Rolf's more reliable options, that's worse than at least always being able to get your favoritism, since we'll always be getting BEXP, and since Lucia really needs them to be as good as you say.

Rolf also does not hit much harder than Lucia, not enough for it to really matter. Remember that even on the few foes that Rolf KOs in fewer rounds, Lucia has about a 50% chance of killing anyway due to crit. On later chapters, there are SM's + Cats Lucia doubles that Rolf can't.

20/8 Rolf has 18.4 Strength, up to a possible 21 with supports and band usage/RNG blessing. Lucia has 15. Silver Sword Lucia has 28 Atk, Silver Bow Rolf has 31-34

2x Fighter lv 20 (steel axe)
40 hp, 27 atk, 12 AS, 92 hit, 29 avo, 11 def, 6 res, 5 crit, 5 cev
1x Warrior lv 5 (steel axe) 
44 hp, 28 atk, 12 AS, 91 hit, 28 avo, 11 def, 7 res, 5 crit, 4 cev
1x Warrior lv 6 (silver axe)
47 hp, 33 atk, 13 AS, 99 hit, 31 avo, 12 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev

31 atk kills the first two, 33 the second, and neither can get the third.

5x Sword Knight lv 15-17 (steel sword)
31 hp, 20 atk, 12 AS, 96 hit, 29 avo, 13 def, 6 res, 4 crit, 5 cev
2x Sword Knight lv 19 (steel sword)
32 hp, 20 atk, 15 AS, 98 hit, 35 avo, 14 def, 8 res, 4 crit, 5 cev

29 and 30 atk (respectively) kill them, so only Rolf.

2x Lance Knight lv 17 (steel lance)
31 hp, 22 atk, 11 AS, 90 hit, 26 avo, 13 def, 6 res, 4 crit, 4 cev
1x Lance Knight lv 19 (steel lance, javelin)
32 hp, 23 atk, 14 AS, 93 hit, 33 avo, 14 def, 6 res, 4 crit, 5 cev

Same deal, only Lucia is at WTD.

2x Archer lv 17 (steel bow)
27 hp, 18 atk, 12 AS, 106 hit, 28 avo, 11 def, 7 res, 8 crit, 4 cev
1x Archer lv 18 (steel bow, Iron 
28 hp, 19 atk, 11 AS, 109 hit, 27 avo, 11 def, 7 res, 8 crit, 5 cev
1x Archer lv 20 (steel bow, Iron 
30 hp, 19 atk, 14 AS, 111 hit, 33 avo, 12 def, 7 res, 9 crit, 5 cev
1x Sniper lv 4 (longbow, Iron 
31 hp, 18 atk, 14 AS, 106 hit, 33 avo, 12 def, 9 res, 24 crit, 5 cev
1x Sniper lv 5 (steel bow)
31 hp, 22 atk, 14 AS, 109 hit, 33 avo, 12 def, 9 res, 23 crit, 5 cev

Both ORKO all of them, but it should be noted Rolf can do so on Enemy Phase. Lucia can do it without counter on P Phase, so this might be more neutral.

2x Wyvern Rider lv 20 (steel lance, 1 javelin)
35 hp, 27 atk, 10 AS, 102 hit, 24 avo, 18 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 4 cev
1x Wyvern Rider lv 20 (killer lance)
36 hp, 27 atk, 10 AS, 103 hit, 25 avo, 19 def, 7 res, 37 crit, 5 cev
1x Wyvern Lord lv 5 (silver lance)
37 hp, 32 atk, 11 AS, 107 hit, 26 avo, 18 def, 8 res, 7 crit, 4 cev

Lucia is 4HKOing the first two, 5HKOing (3 rounding) the Killer guy, and 4HKOing again the third guy, while Rolf ORKO's all four.

I'd say Rolf is hitting decently harder than Lucia, enough to matter. And anything neither kills Rolf hits harder, making it easier for someone else to kill, especially since he isn't right next to the enemy like Lucia.

It's all very dependent on whether Lucia gets a support or not. Personally, I think it's rather unfair to deny Lucia the chance of any supports, especially when we're giving Rolf Rhys and possibly Marcia, which are either somewhat unlikely (Rhys is eh) or is a deviation from partners that would prefer (Marcia wants Tanith/Kieran).

Tauroeneo is much like Janaff, Mist is just not a good idea due to other options. In general though, supports fix Lucia's main problem (durability), they can't fix Rolf's Enemy Phase.

I edited my above post with support info.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Vykan12]

Lucia's support is heavier favoritism than whatever we're giving Rolf IMO. It's one thing to pour lots of BEXP and forges into a unit, but it's another entirely to force an extra 2 crappy units to be in play just to make yourself better. I'm not big on getting into huge support arguments, but Rolf is helpful in that he gives out really quick supports to mostly decent units.

Rhys: 3/6/9

Shinon: 0/2/4

Marcia: 2/5/8

Mist: 1/3/7

Tauroneo: 1/3/5

[grandjackal]

To be honest, I could see him above the likes of Haar...;;>>

[-Cynthia-]

Mordecai will most definitely take Ilyana over Stefan. Def + hit > hit. It's also faster and starts sooner.

Stefan will also take Mordecai over nothing if he's in play.

Only, it doesn't really work that way. You can't really assign number values like that to units. You say Janaff has a 25% chance of being in play, which is 1/4 of the time. There are 43 PC's in this, and he currently is listed as #35, so that's giving him more like an 8/43 chance to be played, which is ~19%. Bastian would be 2/43 (1/43 if we assume Rolf > him, but w/e), which is ~5%. Keeping your 25% for Ilyana, that's bringing it to 49%, which is about half the time, and for her to get just one support, possibly only B if it's Ilyana. Of course, you could say my numbers are skewed against Lucia, but that's the problem with assigning numerical values in the first place.

Even your own number of 65% to get a single partner is not very good at all.

Remember that the numbers are higher because we know we're using Lucia. Lucia makes those units better, they make her better, when we know we're using Lucia it makes more sense to also use her support partners. Yeah I know the numbers are a little funky, but I didn't know how else to express that one support isn't equal to massive favoritism, especially when you consider my point about high numbers of unit slots. I find it really odd that fielding Janaff is considered a huge negative while fielding Rolf is somehow a positive

Your problem here is that you're fielding units just to give out supports, which is favoritism on its own, but also means they have no reason to support Lucia since they don't care about bonuses themselves. Janaff could easily be helping Oscar already if that's what he's meant to do (probably a better option for the Hawk if he's in play, anyway). Volke has no options other than Bastian, so he'd take that, and Makalov would respect the avoid boost as well.

Oscar would prefer (Ike/Kieran/Tanith) and even if Janaff takes Oscar he still has a slot open (unless you want to argue Shinon in play, but Janaff/Shinon/Rolf/Lucia is too ridiculous). Bastian prefers Lucia's support to all others, he gets a bigger durability boost from +15 Avo than +1 Def/8 Avo or 8 Avo. I also would say you're incorrect about "don't want to recieive Lucia's bonuses", Earth is the best affinity in the game, they all appreciate the boost.

Never said it wasn't allowed, but if Lucia has a 49-65% chance of getting just one support partner while we haven't even factored in Rolf's more reliable options, that's worse than at least always being able to get your favoritism, since we'll always be getting BEXP, and since Lucia really needs them to be as good as you say.

Rolf's options have often been factored in( IE a +1 Rhys to ORKO halbs or whatever). And we can always get Lucia's favoritism, we have control over the unit slots. I would argue that Rolf's favoritism is equal or worse, almost everyone wants forges/BEXP, we might not even want those unit slots in some chapters(and Lucia is forced on Ch24).

Both ORKO all of them, but it should be noted Rolf can do so on Enemy Phase. Lucia can do it without counter on P Phase, so this might be more neutral.

They won't attack Rolf on the Enemy Phase assuming anyone with 1 range is around, so Lucia wins. Also, if we factor in forges both are ORKOing much more often.

Rolf is hitting decently harder than Lucia, enough to matter. And anything neither kills Rolf hits harder, making it easier for someone else to kill, especially since he isn't right next to the enemy like Lucia.

Again, since we're so quick to assume forges in earlygame for Rolf(where there are less to go around), we could at least give them both forges lategame when we've had more opportunities, this evens things up a lot. Also both Rolf and Lucia have about a 50% to ORKO anyway due to crit (less for Rolf when he doesn't double), which makes Rolf's Atk lead matter even less.

It just seems unfair to be giving Rolf BEXP while Lucia recieives absolutely nothing, that's pretty much the definition of favoritism, to give one character resources that we don't give the other. We're very free to assume full support sets on Zihark and whatnot, giving Lucia a support hardly seems massive favoritism. At the very least it should be considered.

I'm not arguing that Lucia receiving unlikely supports isn't favoritism, but not giving her anything would be unfair, as we've given Rolf BEXP and some forges (probably 3 to Lucia's 1). I'm a little dubious on Rolf's levels as well, considering his issues killing things in Ch11, more than a level a chapter in CEXP alone seems high. Basically, all I've seen is Rolf with favoritism> Lucia without, but it seems as if Lucia with> Rolf with, and Lucia without> Rolf without.

@ PrettyBoiWolf No. That would pretty much destroy the credibility of this tier list entirely

Edited July 23, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

To be honest, I could see him above the likes of Haar...;;>>

Don't start with the hype. bro.

[Florete]

Stefan will also take Mordecai over nothing if he's in play.

But we were dealing with who Ilyana wants. She wants Mordecai, who also wants her over Stefan, so it works. Lucia's best support option wants someone else over her that also wants her back, thus hurting Lucia's chances of getting her.

Remember that the numbers are higher because we know we're using Lucia. Lucia makes those units better, they make her better, when we know we're using Lucia it makes more sense to also use her support partners. Yeah I know the numbers are a little funky, but I didn't know how else to express that one support isn't equal to massive favoritism, esecially when you consider my point about high numbers of unit slots. I find it really odd that fielding Janaff is considered a huge negative while fielding Rolf is somehow a positive

It's bad enough to field one bad unit, but adding in other terrible characters just to make one better is hurting us even more than helping, especially since Bastian might as well be the worst character in the game now.

Rolf is fielded because we're arguing his position. Janaff's position is not being argued, therefore, he's not assumed in play. And Rolf starts bad, but eventually becomes decent and even good. That's where the positive comes.

Oscar would prefer (Ike/Kieran/Tanith) and even if Janaff takes Oscar he still has a slot open (unless you want to argue Shinon in play, but Janaff/Shinon/Rolf/Lucia is too ridiculous). Bastian prefers Lucia's support to all others, he gets a bigger durability boost from +15 Avo than +1 Def/8 Avo or 8 Avo. I also would say you're incorrect about "don't want to recieive Lucia's bonuses", Earth is the best affinity in the game, they all appreciate the boost.

You missed my point. You were fielding them purely to give out support bonuses, so they likely won't be fighting at all, so they don't care what bonuses they get since supports don't grant Move or anything h4x like that. So all these supports end up being one sided, which is very arguably more favoritism for Lucia than for Rolf. If you want to assume it, fine, but keep that in mind.

They won't attack Rolf on the Enemy Phase assuming anyone with 1 range is around, so Lucia wins. Also, if we factor in forges both are ORKOing much more often.

This is a big map with a good deal of chokepoints, so I find it very possible that only Rolf could be in their range. And in any case, the strongest one is like borderline 7RKOing 20/8 supportless Rolf at 51% (as low as 41%(34% true) with double B's), so I don't think Rolf even cares about taking a counter in this one scenario.

Again, since we're so quick to assume forges in earlygame for Rolf(where there are less to go around), we could at least give them both forges lategame when we've had more opportunities, this evens things up a lot.

Okay, but Rolf will still have the better offense. Then there's the fact that no one else wants Rolf's weapon while Lucia might have to share.

Also consider the fact that Rolf doesn't really need a forge now while Lucia probably does.

It just seems unfair to be giving Rolf BEXP while Lucia recieives absolutely nothing, that's pretty much the definition of favortism, to give one character resources that we don't give the other. We're very free to assume full support sets on Zihark and whatnot, giving Lucia a support hardly seems massive favoritism. At the very least it should be considered.

It can be considered, but when Lucia w/favoritism turns out to still be worse than Rolf w/arguably less favoritism...That's not good. I'd be willing to give Lucia BEXP right away, but she joins during the fight. She can get some afterwards, but Rolf's offense will still be arguably better.

I'm a little dubious on Rolf's levels as well, considering his issues killing things in Ch11, more than a level a chapter in CEXP alone seems high. Basically all I've seen is Rolf with favoritism> Lucia without, but it seems as if Lucia with> Rolf with, and Lucia without> Rolf without.

He has fairly high experience gain due to being underleveled, there's still plenty of BEXP to cap off his level whenever he's close (which amounts, in total, to like an extra 1-2% added to what he already took). Also, counting 17 as 4 maps, that's 16 maps until Lucia joins. If he gains only 1 level per map, that would put him at 20/5, but since he can likely gain a bit more per map (occasional boss kills, Laguz, etc.), 20/8 isn't too far off, but 20/7 and even 20/6 won't really change much, if anything. He'll miss the double on a couple more enemies but still have better overall offense.

@ PrettyBoiWolf No. That would pretty much destroy the credibility of this tier list entirely

I agree. That would be way too high.

[-Cynthia-]

I'll stop for now, since I believe our arguments will just go in circles and I seem to be incapable of convincing anyone anyway :(

If Rolf goes above Haar though, my head will probably explode. For realz.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Rolf above Elincia.