FE9 Tier List v2

[uzy5o]

He still needs to be walled off on enemy phase. That's a negative. He can't make up for it with his player phase, as his offence isn't anything special. In fact, his offence might still be inferior to most other units, as he'll be behind in levels from very little enemy phase action.

[Florete]

Just because he's not necessarily a huge negative anymore doesn't mean he's a positive. He's still inferior to most units.

We also have to consider how much negative utiltiy he racks up. If he promotes in Chapter 21, he's been a neg for 12 and a pos for 8, which isn't good. Elincia can heal without resources or being a negative.

Who's to say he doesn't promote until 21? Who's to say he's always a negative until he promotes? I haven't looked that far into it, but I can't imagine level 16 Rolf being bad enough to be considered negative.

[-Cynthia-]

Who's to say he doesn't promote until 21? Who's to say he's always a negative until he promotes? I haven't looked that far into it, but I can't imagine level 16 Rolf being bad enough to be considered negative.

20/1 by chapter 21 gives him like 2 levels a chapter, which is more than reasonable IMO, given how much difficulty he has actually gaining CEXP if we don't constantly feed him kills. Yes, 17 is more like 2 chapters, but he won't be doing much on 15, so they kinda cancel out.

Let's say Rolf is 16/0 by Ch18. I'll round up Spd/Def due to bands.

16/0 Rolf (B Rhys forged Steel Bow/ steel bow)

27 HP 26/21 Atk 14 AS 11 Def 6 Res 43 Avo

First off, Rolf pretty much needs a forge. It seems incredibly unfair to complain about Lucia getting a forge, when Rolf needs one to even ORKO Sages. So yeah, Rolf is very forge dependent.

With a forge, he ORKOs 8 of the chapters 36 enemies(Wvys, Sages+Bishops). He 2RKOS 19 enemies. He 3RKOs a few more, and there are a number of Paladin he can't even 4RKO.

On the defensive side, Rolf is 2HKOd by anything with 25 Atk or more, which a few enemies reach, 12 enemies 2RKO him (he gets doubled by most Ravens). Basically everything else 3RKOs him at high hit rates, and many are borderline 2RKOing him. He's also an enemy magnet, he will be attacked by any enemy with 1 range if possible.

So yeah, it's not as bad, but we still have to wall off Rolf so he can 2RKO things on the player phase. I'm not sure you can find a worse unit than Rolf even at this point.

[Florete]

Cynthia, what happened to this? I'm pretty sure we already discussed the BEXP problem. Given that, and excluding 9 and 10, promotion by 21 is 11 levels in 10 maps, which is barely more than a level per map, but since 17 is more like 4 chapters (How did you get 2?) and he rocks against Ravens on the boats I'd say he would get a bit more. 16/0 by 18 is much too low, as I usually have all or most of my team promoted by the end of chapter 17. Rolf takes longer than most, but I'd say he can hit his promotion by chapter 19 at the latest with this method.

[-Cynthia-]

Cynthia, what happened to this? I'm pretty sure we already discussed the BEXP problem. Given that, and excluding 9 and 10, promotion by 21 is 11 levels in 10 maps, which is barely more than a level per map, but since 17 is more like 4 chapters (How did you get 2?) and he rocks against Ravens on the boats I'd say he would get a bit more. 16/0 by 18 is much too low, as I usually have all or most of my team promoted by the end of chapter 17. Rolf takes longer than most, but I'd say he can hit his promotion by chapter 19 at the latest with this method.

The 4 parts of Ch17 are much smaller than your average chapter, some only offer about 1/2 the enemies, 17-1 and 17-2 have like 20ish.

You might have your team promoted all by the end of Chapter 17. but you probably weren't using Rolf. Rolf can only kill about an enemy every other player phase(if that), this means he's not gaining much CEXP even though he's underleveled. For the record on my playthroughs I have Astrid reaching 20/1 near Ch 18, but she gains twice as much EXP as Rolf due to Paragon.

The only way Rolf is promoting by Chapter 19 is with extreme favortism (feeding him kills because he can't kill otherwise, loads of BEXP etc.) Really, Rolf is going to have issues gaining levels because it's hard for Rolf to get kills. He's not really better against ravens than anyone else, he 2RKOs and can't fight them on the enemy phase.

It's not like Rolf is that great post promotion anyway. Let's say Rolf is 20/3 by Ch21.

20/3 Rolf(B Rhys forged steel bow/steel bow)

34 HP 31/26 Atk 19 AS 14 Def 9 Res 55 Avo

Rolf is better(though this level estimate is generous), but he's still not very good.

Offensively, he's still very forge reliant, the only enemies he ORKOs without a forge are bishops. So yeah, all complaints about Lucia or whoever getting a forge is ridiculous, as he's burned through 3+ before she even shows up (or is even more terrible on offense than listed).

With a forge, it's a bit better. He roughly ORKOs half the map and 2RKOs the other half. This doesn't sound so bad until you realize he's still only doing this on the player phase. Almost every unit in the game can do this on the player phase and the enemy phase, which makes Rolf look a lot worse.

Defensively, he at least doesn't get 2RKOd much anymore. A number of enemy combinations 3RKO him. His durability doesn't matter too much actually, since Rolf shouldn't be seeing any enemy phase action or he's hurting the team.

So yeah, he's not the worst unit on the team anymore maybe, but he's still near the bottom (probably second or third worst). It doesn't even begin to make up for when he was the worst unit on the team for 10-14 chapters, or however long we estimate it takes Rolf to promote. He's very arguably still a negative, since we still don't want him around on the enemy phase and thus have to wall him off and hurt the team.

For kicks, let's compare him to a low tier unit like Ulki.

--/10 Ulki

44 HP 30 Atk 17 AS 20 Def 12 Res 39 Avo

Note that I disn't give Ulki any supports or forges or whetever. If Ulki gets a full A/B he can get +5 Atk and +3 to +5 Def.

The AS difference doesn't mean too much actually, there are only 5 enemies Rolf doubles that Ulki doesn't. Their damage is pretty similar, but Rolf has crit do he win (unless he isn't uging a forge, thwn Ulki wins). However, Ulki gets to use his offense about 2-3x more than Rolf does, which means his damage output will almost always be higher.

Defensively, 10 HP, 6 Def, 3 Res > 15 Avo. Ulki does have gauge to deal with, but he also has more Mov and flight.

What's the point? It's that post promo Rolf is pretty comparable to Ulki, and I think we can all agree Ulki isn't a good unit(he's the worst non Shinon unit I could think of). So even after we pour all those resources into him, Rolf is still like the second worst unit on the team, which does not fit in with my definition of positive.

Edited July 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Cynthia, what happened to this? I'm pretty sure we already discussed the BEXP problem. Given that, and excluding 9 and 10, promotion by 21 is 11 levels in 10 maps, which is barely more than a level per map, but since 17 is more like 4 chapters (How did you get 2?) and he rocks against Ravens on the boats I'd say he would get a bit more. 16/0 by 18 is much too low, as I usually have all or most of my team promoted by the end of chapter 17. Rolf takes longer than most, but I'd say he can hit his promotion by chapter 19 at the latest with this method.

That post had a plethora of problems.

In the chapter 11 comparison, Rofl can only have an iron forge, at best. This means he can only ORKO the mmyrmidons. He 5RKO's the weakest knights that he could nearly 2RKO before and nearly 7RKO's the stronger knight. Against the weapon knight he showed, the damage% is reduced to ~57%. The rest he 4RKO's. It isn't nearly as good as what Vykan made it out to be. A level from this chapter, at most.

In the chapter 13 one, there are still no steel forges, dropping the level 13 Rofl's Atk down to 21. This means he can only ORKO 9 of the enemies Vykan mentioned. Against the stronger enemies like the halbs which Vykan conveniently left out? He borderline 3RKO's the weakest one, he 4RKO's the stronger one. He doesn't even ORKO the ravens anymore. He 5RKO's the boss, too.

I have no idea how he got to level 13 without bexp, btw. Since he 2RKO's the ravens, that's 4 ravens at most without exceeding the bexp limit, add in the other units and i can only see him get 3 kills. Which is ~160 cexp. Add in the maximum of 1 level he obtained in chapter 11 and that leaves ~140 cexp for him to get. Even if he got to level 12, he'd still need another 11 bexp for him to get to level 13.

To add insult to injury, the amount of bexp Rofl needs to get to level 9 from level 1 is 738. Using Vykan's 2990 BEXP limit, now Rofl's percentage of bexp use has skyrocketed to ~25%.

No offence meant, but that post is too optimistic on the matter.

Edited July 30, 2009 by kirsche

[Vykan12]

Base Lucia: 36 HP, 62 Avo, 10 Def

2x Fighter lv 20 steel axe: 27 atk, 92 hit -- a 3RKO at 20 displayed, without real, chance of death is 0.8%

5x Sword Knight lv 15-17 steel sword: 20 atk, 96 hit -- a 4HKO at 34 displayed, without real, chance of death is 1.336336%

2x Archer lv 17 steel bow: 27 hp, 18 atk, 106 hit -- a 5RKO at 44 displayed, without real, chance of death is 1.64916224%

4x Myrmidon lv 20 steel sword: 21 atk, 112 hit -- a 4RKO at 50.50 real, chance of death = 6.5037750625

1x Wyvern Rider lv 20 javelin: 23 atk, 92 hit -- a 3RKO at 30 displayed, without real, chance of death is 2.7%.

This seems pretty good to me. Especially since the real chance of death for many of these (All save the myrmidon) is lower due to real hit being lower.

First off, this is a pretty generous sample for Lucia. Theres only 1 enemy there she faces WTD against (you forgot to even account for it btw) despite them making up 38% of the map. Then you only compared her to unpromoted enemies. Although they do make up 76% of enemies, you couldve at least included a halberdier or sage in there (the latter 2HKOes her at 52 display hit). And, like I said, chapter 25 is a farce compared to the ones that come after since they are primarily occupied by laguz/promos, so this is the best Lucia can ever hope to achieve w/o supports.

Secondly, these numbers are still bad. While she may face low chances of dying, they exist every time she faces those amount of enemies. If we get RNG screwed somewhere along the way, weve either lost many turns or Lucia altogether, depending on what the player chooses to do. And remember with her low hp/def/res, long range enemies like seige tomes, onagers and ballistae will prioritize her.

Chapter 25, 20/13 Lucia + 'C' Ilyana has these stats: 37 HP, 69.5 avo, 10 Def

3x Cat lv 9-10 claw: 27 atk, 114 hit -- a 3RKO at 44.5 displayed, without real, chance of death is 8.8121125%

2x Warrior lv 6-7 steel axe: 27 atk, 94 hit -- a 3RKO at 13.5 displayed. Without real, chance of death is 0.2460375%

3x Sniper lv 7 steel bow: 23 atk, 111 hit -- a 3RKO at 41.5 displayed, without real, chance of death is 7.1473375%

1x Halberdier lv 6 steel lance: 38 hp, 23 atk, 105 hit -- a 3RKO at 45.5 displayed hit, without real, chance of death is 9.4196375%

Still not too bad. Every real chance of death is <8%.

I bolded the important parts. Remember if Lucia takes just a single hit, she gets 2RKOed and her death chances skyrocket as a result. So thats like a 30+% chance of having to heal her instead of letting her attack on P. phase, and a vulnerary might not cut it either. The long ranged threats are also very prevalent here:

1x Sniper lv 6 (longbow, iron B )

33 hp, 19 atk, 15 AS, 108 hit, 35 avo, 13 def, 8 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

3x Sniper lv 7 (steel bow, 2 onager)

32 hp, 23 atk, 15 AS, 111 hit, 35 avo, 14 def, 10 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

1x Bishop lv 5 (purge [d], mend)

30 hp, 26 atk, 7 AS, 97 hit, 23 avo, 6 def, 21 res, 4 crit, 9 cev

In addition to that, there are boulders being rolled onto your team. If 2 hit Lucia, shell probably get 1HKOed by a ton of enemies.

Also consider that if C Ilyana isnt in range or didnt happen (eg/ Ilyanas not in play), Lucia loses 5 avo and her death chances jump even higher.

Who does Lucia face competition with swords against?

Thats not the issue. Everyone benefits from forges (eg/ hand axes, bosskilling, general 1RKOes) and Lucia takes up 2 in a short time frame.

As for sword competition, youre forgetting some people have it as a secondary weapon. Tanith, Makalov, Tauroneo, Mist, Marcia and a few others can be added to that list.

Ike gets Ragnell then doesn't even need another sword.

For 2 chapters. What happens between 24 and 27?

Besides, they were silver forges, and they're not available the entire game.

How does that justify anything?

Let's say Rolf is 16/0 by Ch18. I'll round up Spd/Def due to bands.

Thats an absurdly low level. Makalov joins in chp 14 at 10/0 and yet nobody seems to have an issue with him promoting by 18. Someone mentioned Astrid promoting in 18, but shes also at a huge level deficit to Rolf before her faster exp gain kicks in.

Ive said this before: the best way to treat a unit who struggles early on is to load them with BEXP since then youre wasting resources instead of turns. If Oscar 1RKOes a bit less as a result, that will cause inefficiency, but thats nothing compared to constantly setting up kills for a unit and what have you.

If Rolf is BEXP to lv 9-10/0 in chapter 11, then he only needs to gain 1.4 levels per chapter through CEXP. Its even less than that since by chp 16 hell have used <10% of the total BEXP pool, so we could push him close to promotion there while maintaining the BEXP favoritism gap he had in 11. Then once he promotes, his need for crutches has lessened dramatically, especially with special weapons showing up (killer/brave), so we can hold out on BEXP+forges for a while to once again offset his earlier favoritism.

The 4 parts of Ch17 are much smaller than your average chapter, some only offer about 1/2 the enemies, 17-1 and 17-2 have like 20ish.

Actually they arent.

17-1: 21+ enemies

17-2: 24+ enemies

17-3: 43 enemies

17-4: 34+ enemies

Note: I put + because I missed most of the reinforcements when recording enemy stats.

That totals to 122+ enemies, lets say 135 with reinforcements. Now lets look at some earlier chapters.

13: 38 enemies

14: missing

15: 20 enemies

16: 38 enemies

If we do 122/38, then chapter 17 has the weight of ~3.2 chapters.

It's not like Rolf is that great post promotion anyway. Let's say Rolf is 20/3 by Ch21.

Youre still underestimating his level a little.

Also, everyones comparisons keep forgetting the impact of Rolfs bow monopoly. Killer + brave bow uses alone amount to 60. Add in the laguz bow for 105. That supplies him well enough for ~53 kills assuming he usually 2HKOes post promotion (remember he has has ~25-45 crit with regular weapons and ~55-75 with killers. The variation is given by bonds).

It [chapter 11 Rolf] isn't nearly as good as what Vykan made it out to be. A level from this chapter, at most.

I agree with the first sentence but not the second. Enemies are still giving him 10-12 exp per hit and 25-31 exp per kill. Then as I said earlier, nobody (not even Titania) is 1RKOing cavaliers and generals, so it’s quite possible for Rolf + somebody else to team up for a kill. Or we could have someone like Titania injure an enemy to single digit hp, Rolf trades a good weapon back into their inventory while simultaneously attacking. I’d say at least 1.2 levels is realistic here even if Rolf is struggling to kill things.

More importantly, inefficiency is pretty acceptable in 11. The goal of the map is to arrive, so whoever’s dealing with the eastern part of the map has basically nothing to do with that. Really, the only people who are going to charge for the arrive square are the ones who can deal with Mackoya and highly durable enemies, whereas everyone else will be playing a far more secondary role that is fairly inconsequential to the completion of the map.

Against the stronger enemies like the halbs which Vykan conveniently left out?

You misread my post then. Red Fox’s link doesn’t seem to work so look here

He ORKOes all of these, and they happen to make up 66% of the level’s non-Raven enemies. He also does >50% damage per hit to anything he attacks except for halberdiers and the boss, which totals 4 enemies.

As you can see, I most definitely didn’t neglect to mention them. And while Rolf obviously does worse in 13 with steel forges still not being available, he’s still arguably your best raven killer. The ones who do better need 17-19 AS, which is very rare at this point of the game (eg/ Marcia hits 19 spd at lv 20/0).

Since he 2RKO's the ravens, that's 4 ravens at most without exceeding the bexp limit

This would be one of the better maps to extend beyond the BEXP limits. You only lose 20 BEXP for every turn that goes by, and units easily gain more than that by killing a single raven.

Consider it wasting turns here to save them again later, not to mention making the game easier.

To add insult to injury, the amount of bexp Rofl needs to get to level 9 from level 1 is 738.

Since when does Rolf do absolutely nothing in chapter 9?

So Rolf joins in chp 9 at lv 1. The average enemy is about lv 9, so he’s gaining 14 exp per attack and 37 exp per kill. Hell, if he hits the boss he gets 21 exp. Suffice to say, it shouldn’t be hard to get him 2 level-ups here.

Now we stealth chp 10 and get our first opportunity to BEXP Rolf in 11. Ideally we want to get him to lv 9/0 or higher, which requires 566 BEXP. You have 2990 BEXP available by this point so Rolf is only taking up 19%.

You can put as much emphasis on pre-steel forge Rolf as you want. The reality is, the further you get in the game, the better he becomes, and his growth curve is quite large due to high exp gain, solid growths (40% str, 50% spd) and opportunity (2 raven chapters, 2 stealth chapters, better forges/special bows showing up, etc).

Edited July 30, 2009 by Vykan12

[Zkirsche]

First off, this is a pretty generous sample for Lucia. There’s only 1 enemy there she faces WTD against (you forgot to even account for it btw) despite them making up 38% of the map. Then you only compared her to unpromoted enemies. Although they do make up 76% of enemies, you could’ve at least included a halberdier or sage in there (the latter 2HKOes her at 52 display hit). And, like I said, chapter 25 is a farce compared to the ones that come after since they are primarily occupied by laguz/promos, so this is the best Lucia can ever hope to achieve w/o supports.

Sorry, my mistake. Still, she does well against them.

Secondly, these numbers are still bad. While she may face low chances of dying, they exist every time she faces those amount of enemies. If we get RNG screwed somewhere along the way, we’ve either lost many turns or Lucia altogether, depending on what the player chooses to do. And remember with her low hp/def/res, long range enemies like seige tomes, onagers and ballistae will prioritize her.

We can just as easily get RNG blessed as RNG screwed, scratch that, it's actually higher due to low % of hitting. If Lucia gets RNG blessed? Whoops, she's now crushing Rofl due to much, much larger enemy phase exposure.

I bolded the important parts. Remember if Lucia takes just a single hit, she gets 2RKOed and her death chances skyrocket as a result. So that’s like a 30+% chance of having to heal her instead of letting her attack on P. phase, and a vulnerary might not cut it either. The long ranged threats are also very prevalent here:

What else are we doing with healer such as Rhys and Elincia? Neither combat well, so getting healed isn't even that bad.=

1x Sniper lv 6 (longbow, iron B )

33 hp, 19 atk, 15 AS, 108 hit, 35 avo, 13 def, 8 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

3x Sniper lv 7 (steel bow, 2 onager)

32 hp, 23 atk, 15 AS, 111 hit, 35 avo, 14 def, 10 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

1x Bishop lv 5 (purge [d], mend)

30 hp, 26 atk, 7 AS, 97 hit, 23 avo, 6 def, 21 res, 4 crit, 9 cev

Onagers and ballistae deal pathetic damage (10-12), which can easily be healed with, say, a vulnerary. Granted, that takes a player phase, but more action occurs on the enemy phase anyway.

In addition to that, there are boulders being rolled onto your team. If 2 hit Lucia, she’ll probably get 1HKOed by a ton of enemies.

Who'd be stupid enougth to have her hit by 2 boulders? My units don't ever get hit by boulders. i just dodge them all.

That’s not the issue. Everyone benefits from forges (eg/ hand axes, bosskilling, general 1RKOes) and Lucia takes up 2 in a short time frame.

So does Rofl, unless you want his offence to dip, which matters since he has no enemy phase so needs to be spectacular on teh enemy phase.

As for sword competition, you’re forgetting some people have it as a secondary weapon. Tanith, Makalov, Tauroneo, Mist, Marcia and a few others can be added to that list.

Only Mist wants to use it, swords have fail MT, meaning that all those characters would rather use lances/axes.

For 2 chapters. What happens between 24 and 27?

Ike uses a silver forge. I was merely mentioning that the competition she faces for forges drops.

How does that justify anything?

That means that both Rofl and Lucia use it in the same short period of time.

I agree with the first sentence but not the second. Enemies are still giving him 10-12 exp per hit and 25-31 exp per kill. Then as I said earlier, nobody (not even Titania) is 1RKOing cavaliers and generals, so it’s quite possible for Rolf + somebody else to team up for a kill. Or we could have someone like Titania injure an enemy to single digit hp, Rolf trades a good weapon back into their inventory while simultaneously attacking. I’d say at least 1.2 levels is realistic here even if Rolf is struggling to kill things.

Whatever, it's still not wtfhuge.

As you can see, I most definitely didn’t neglect to mention them. And while Rolf obviously does worse in 13 with steel forges still not being available, he’s still arguably your best raven killer. The ones who do better need 17-19 AS, which is very rare at this point of the game (eg/ Marcia hits 19 spd at lv 20/0).

Astrid is the same as him yet is more durable and her lack of enemy phase is less of a problem, both thanks to canto. Ike/Zihark can use the laguz slayer. Then there's lolmordy and lolethe. Titania can do it, a level 15 Kieran with a strength band usage can also do it. A level 15 Oscar can do it with 3 uses of a strength band. A level 4 Soren can do it. A level 12 Gatrie can do it with a forged iron lance. Shall i go on, or has my point been proved?

This would be one of the better maps to extend beyond the BEXP limits. You only lose 20 BEXP for every turn that goes by, and units easily gain more than that by killing a single raven.

Consider it wasting turns here to save them again later, not to mention making the game easier.

With this logic a tier list is pointless, let's abuse everyone so that they max level. Why? Because getting a 20/20 Oscar in chapter 1 makes the game ridiculously easy.

Since when does Rolf do absolutely nothing in chapter 9?

When he was deemed a liability for pathetic durability amongst a path of enemies which have quite the few ranged enemies (Just under 33%) and having no enemy phase. Even if you can get 1-2 shots in, he shouldn't get any more than a level-up. What you do is "He gets tonnes of experience per kill" without actually realising he struggles to kill and/or attack.

You can put as much emphasis on pre-steel forge Rolf as you want. The reality is, the further you get in the game, the better he becomes, and his growth curve is quite large due to high exp gain, solid growths (40% str, 50% spd) and opportunity (2 raven chapters, 2 stealth chapters, better forges/special bows showing up, etc).

I understand why he's better, just that I don't understand why he's a tier above Lucia.

[Dat Nick]

Just because he's not necessarily a huge negative anymore doesn't mean he's a positive. He's still inferior to most units.

Do people here even realize that everybody here, including people who support Rolf, is 100% fully aware that he's a shitty unit?

The point of this debate if if he's AS shitty as Lucia and Bastian.

We also have to consider how much negative utiltiy he racks up. If he promotes in Chapter 21, he's been a neg for 12 and a pos for 8, which isn't good.

Yeahyeahyeah, we KNOW he's a fucking negative more often than a positive. Do you honestly think anybody is going to dispute this? "It's not good"? How many times do I have to say it? We know Rolf isn't good. This isn't a debate on whether or not Rolf is good, it's whether or not he sucks as much as Lucia. I said what I said because Kirsche said he was sucking the whole game which couldn't be more false.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Vykan12]

We can just as easily get RNG blessed as RNG screwed, scratch that, it's actually higher due to low % of hitting. If Lucia gets RNG blessed? Whoops, she's now crushing Rofl due to much, much larger enemy phase exposure.

What the hell? Lucia’s enemy phase exposure doesn’t increase if she gets RNG blessed. The only way for that to happen is if you purposely try to kill Lucia and it takes longer than expected.

What else are we doing with healer such as Rhys and Elincia? Neither combat well, so getting healed isn't even that bad.

Umm, how about healing other people? I know FE9 is easy but let’s not make ridiculous claims.

Onagers and ballistae deal pathetic damage (10-12)

That’s not pathetic damage at all. Lucia starts with 36 hp so the stronger onagers 3HKO her. In fact, that’s humorously bad. In chapter 25 there are 2 onagers with intersecting range, so 2 onagers + a rock or regular enemy attack could very well kill her.

Who'd be stupid enougth to have her hit by 2 boulders? My units don't ever get hit by boulders. i just dodge them all.

I can’t find a map of this level, but really, I cannot comprehend how this map can be beaten efficiently while avoiding every boulder. The entire middle area of the level needs to be avoided, then you can’t escalate the mountain by the east or west path either. Did you use fliers only?

So does Rofl, unless you want his offence to dip, which matters since he has no enemy phase so needs to be spectacular on teh enemy phase.

The problem is that she's taking up 2 forges in a small amount of chapters, whereas Rolf might only take up 2 in the entire game. Mathematically, her forge uses/chapter is much higher.

Speaking of forges, there's something I forgot to consider: there's a point in time where only iron can be forged but steel is buyable. Hence Rolf taking an iron forge isn't even that big of a deal. Instead of robbing a unit of +5 atk, it's only +2.

In other words, Rolf gets an iron forge early on that nobody really cares about, then he gets a steel forge once it’s available. He can go forge-less the rest of the game. Lucia, on the other hand, takes up 2 valuable silver forges in 6 chapters.

Only Mist wants to use it, swords have fail MT, meaning that all those characters would rather use lances/axes.

Are you talking about forged silver swords? As I said earlier, anyone can benefit from a forge, even Boyd (eg/ ORKOing with a forged hand axe). If you’re talking about brave/killer/laguzslayer swords, then those are weapons where whoever can use them will want to.

Astrid is the same as him yet is more durable and her lack of enemy phase is less of a problem, both thanks to canto.

Let me remind you that Astrid is lv 1/0 in chapter 13. With a steel bow, she has 24 eff Mt/85 hit. An 11/0 Rolf with the same weapon has 28 eff Mt/104 hit.

1x Raven lv 3 (beak, coin [d])

29 hp, 17 atk, 14 AS, 112 hit, 28 avo, 11 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 0 cev

Astrid 3HKOes at 63 real hit, Rolf 2HKOes at 89 real hit. They’re not even remotely close in performance against ravens.

Ike/Zihark can use the laguz slayer. Then there's lolmordy and lolethe. Titania can do it, a level 15 Kieran with a strength band usage can also do it. A level 15 Oscar can do it with 3 uses of a strength band. A level 4 Soren can do it. A level 12 Gatrie can do it with a forged iron lance. Shall i go on, or has my point been proved?

Do what exactly? A lv 15 Kieran has 13 AS, so he’s certainly not doubling. I have to assume you mean 2HKOing, but then I don’t understand your objection towards Rolf’s performance. He’s doing as well as all these high/top tier units against ravens, some of which need to use special weapons (ie laguzslayers).

With this logic a tier list is pointless, let's abuse everyone so that they max level. Why? Because getting a 20/20 Oscar in chapter 1 makes the game ridiculously easy.

This would be one of the better maps to extend beyond the BEXP limits. You only lose 20 BEXP for every turn that goes by, and units easily gain more than that by killing a single raven.

Consider it wasting turns here to save them again later, not to mention making the game easier.

Making Oscar 20/20 in chapter 1 costs thousands of turns, so I have no idea how you can possibly compare these situations.

Even if you can get 1-2 shots in, he shouldn't get any more than a level-up. What you do is "He gets tonnes of experience per kill" without actually realising he struggles to kill and/or attack.

He obviously struggles to kill, but why would he struggle to attack? Injuring an enemy at range on P. phase is something that can be done as frequently as say, healing chip damage. The only limiting factor is the protection Rolf might need, which is mitigated by things like chokepoints, clearing a group of enemies on P. phase, naturally hindering an enemy’s path with frontliner ending positions, etc.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

Yeahyeahyeah, we KNOW he's a fucking negative more often than a positive. Do you honestly think anybody is going to dispute this? "It's not good"? How many times do I have to say it? We know Rolf isn't good. This isn't a debate on whether or not Rolf is good, it's whether or not he sucks as much as Lucia. I said what I said because Kirsche said he was sucking the whole game which couldn't be more false.

The point is whether he can outweigh his negative utility that he amasses early on. He really doesn't, since he jumps to being like tied for the second worst unit post promotion as opposed to the worst. Even if he beats Lucia by a small margin when she joins, she wasn't gobbling down resources and being a general detriment, which should be considered.

A lot of this post has to deal more with Rolf vs. Elincia anyway, since the claim was made that Rolf is useful for more chapters than she is. I'm not really seeing a time where Rolf is very useful at all.

Against ravens, if Rolf can 2HKO and other people 2HKO, they're doing better. Why? Because they can kill the ravens on the enemy phase as well. It's only one enemy type regardless, and Rolf does worse than anyone against just about anything else.

I'm not sure Lucia needs 2 silver forges, since she can preserve them by switching to effective weapons/possible killers and whatnot, since not that many people use swords. Rolf actually needs 2 steel forge, like I showed he isn't ORKOing nearly anything pre or post promotion without one. Plus, by the time Lucia shows up we will have had more forging opportunities. Rolf taking a forge in Ch9 is much more of a blow IMO, since he's taking half of our possible forges. I don't see how you can possibly say unbiased that Rolf taking a forge early on isn't a detriment, since almost every non-laguz wants one, since everyone has issues ORKOing at this point.

If Lucia gets RNG blessed, we can more easily expose her to enemy attacks since she'll be more durable. Her growths are pretty decent anyway, she's got a 10% or higher lead in every category over Rolf, so she can easily be RNG blessed, it also makes BEXP fairly effective on her. Another note on Lucia's durability, she has like a 30% chance not to take a counter since she can crit, and obviously doesn't take counters when attacking archers and such either.

I'm not seeing how saying that Rolf sucks the whole game is so false. It depends on your definition of sucking I suppose, but he's always one of your worst units.He's the worst unit you can field for a long time, and this should be reflected in the tier list.

Edited July 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

The point is whether he can outweigh his negative utility that he amasses early on.

To beat Lucia? He doesn't have to.

Take a unit like Mia. Generally, training Mia is more trouble than it's worth and her time spent being positive really isn't as much as her time spent being a negative. Hence she's considered a bad unit, hence she's low tier. I don't see her worse than Lucia.

Why is this? Because there's "some contribution" and there's "no contribution". Mia contributes lots of suck but eventually becomes decent: If Lucia ever contributes something to anything, it's nothing but suck.

So no, I don't see how this is dependent on Rolf needing to outweigh his negative utility, since Lucia is contributing loads of negative utility of her own.

Even if he beats Lucia by a small margin when she joins, she wasn't gobbling down resources and being a general detriment, which should be considered.

Rolf can...

A: Actually damage stuff without forges

B: Not get destroyed due to taking no counters and having durability that exists

That isn't "a small margin"

A lot of this post has to deal more with Rolf vs. Elincia anyway, since the claim was made that Rolf is useful for more chapters than she is.

Rolf is useful for more chapters than she is. Rolf stops being a detriment after promotion. Lucia never stops being a detriment ever.

I'm not really seeing a time where Rolf is very useful at all.

Funny, I can say the exact same thing for Lucia.

Against ravens, if Rolf can 2HKO and other people 2HKO, they're doing better. Why? Because they can kill the ravens on the enemy phase as well. It's only one enemy type regardless, and Rolf does worse than anyone against just about anything else.

False statement. Rolf can soften up the ravens for somebody else to kill that Raven: 100% damage free.

Plus, by the time Lucia shows up we will have had more forging opportunities.

....

Um, what? It's the exact opposite if anything. Rolf has the entire game to get a forge. Lucia has two chapters. Remind me how this isn't a major advantage for Rolf?

I'm not seeing how saying that Rolf sucks the whole game is so false. It depends on your definition of sucking I suppose, but he's always one of your worst units.

"Always one of your worst unit" is a statement that can't POSSIBLY be more false. "enemy phase lol" does NOT automatically mean you're better than Rolf. Take somebody like Soren, who we don't want to expose to enemy phase anyway, basically meaning he might as well NOT have an enemy phase: Why the hell aren't we nagging Soren for having no enemy phase?

Why's this matter? Because, well, there's a ton of unit that have crappy offense: Let's use Volke as a random example.

Volke's offense sucks, no mystery there. 2RKO on most shit and he's getting 3RKOd himself. Rolf can ORKO shit, and...well, not only will he be doing much better than getting 3HKOd by the time he stops sucking, he can avoid counters, making his durability even better. Having a good player phase and sucking on enemy phase>>>Sucking both phases.

Another note on Lucia's durability, she has like a 30% chance not to take a counter since she can crit

...Where are you getting 30% from? Her base crit is only 25, and that's BEFORE factoring enemy luck, AND she has to crit on the first attack, AND due to how crappy her offense is she might not even kill if she crits...

If Lucia gets RNG blessed, we can more easily expose her to enemy attacks since she'll be more durable.

And if Rolf gets RNG blessed, he can stop sucking sooner since his offense will exist faster, meaning he's going to flatline Lucia for longer, since contributing something>Not contributing anything.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[-Cynthia-]

Take a unit like Mia. Generally, training Mia is more trouble than it's worth and her time spent being positive really isn't as much as her time spent being a negative. Hence she's considered a bad unit, hence she's low tier. I don't see her worse than Lucia.

I would argue that Mia is better than several units above her when they join, but she's lower due to being so resource intensive. Same goes for Rolf, except he's worse. Rolf spends much longer as a negative anyway, because he's worse and he starts out 5 levels lower 2 chaoters later.

In a similar vein, Tormod is actually better than many of the units above him if he's close in levels, but he starts out so underlevled, it's a bit ridiculous to give him so much EXP. Tormod's underleveledness means he'll be promoting later than everyone, much like Rolf's underlevledness and difficulties getting CEXP do the same. At equal levels, Tormod is like Calill, but has 2 more Mov and Staves, but the resources used in getting him there make him lower. The only exception to this rule IMO is Astrid, because she has Paragon.

Why is this? Because there's "some contribution" and there's "no contribution". Mia contributes lots of suck but eventually becomes decent: If Lucia ever contributes something to anything, it's nothing but suck.

You act as if it's impossible for Lucia to become a decent unit, it isn't. All she needs is a forge and a support being fielded and she's already outclassing Rolf and most low tier units. We can BEXP Lucia just like we can BEXP Rolf, but I don't see anyone giving Lucia BEXP levels for a Ch25 comparison. Again, so far it seems that Rolf with resources> Lucia without, but we all know that isn't a fair comparison.

Let's take Lucia in Ch25 for example. By now we have about 11,000 EXP, give or take. If she takes 10%, that's about 4 levelups. Note that it's less than the 20% Rolf took way back when. i think we can agree that without BEXP, Rolf is going to have such a ridiculpus time surviving and killing that he won't reach the level I list for him here.

20/8 Rolf( B Rhys forged Silver Bow)

37 HP 37 Atk 21 AS 16 Def 10 Res 61 Avo

20/16 Lucia (forged Silver Sword)

39 HP 35 Atk 26 AS 12 Def 10 Res 70 Avo

Offensively, Lucia doubles 11 enemies out of Ch25's 32 that Rolf doesn't, which probably makes up for Rolf having 2 more Atk. Defensively, 2 HP and 9 Avo is only a little worse than 4 Def. Add in Lucia having an enemy hase, and she's the winner.

My point? If we give Lucia approximately equal resources to Rolf, she's better. I didn't even give her a support, she outclasses Rolf defensively with one.

So no, I don't see how this is dependent on Rolf needing to outweigh his negative utility, since Lucia is contributing loads of negative utility of her own.

Rolf can...

A: Actually damage stuff without forges

B: Not get destroyed due to taking no counters and having durability that exists

That isn't "a small margin"

Rolf's damage output without forges isn't very good, as I've shown repeatedly. If you want me to make comparisons of Rolf's offense sans forges(to show he's not dependent like Lucia), I'll be happy to do so. Lucia also can counter more often and has multiple ways to avoid taking counters.

Rolf is useful for more chapters than she is. Rolf stops being a detriment after promotion. Lucia never stops being a detriment ever.

Rolf is such an awesome unit when we give him lots of BEXP and Lucia gets nothing! Stop assuming that Lucia isn't good with favoritism, there are a lot of resources we can put into her to make it better(just fielding Janaff make her very awesome defensively for example). Not to beat a dead horse, but Lucia faces pretty ridiculously low hit rates with any support, A Janaff gives her about 0/10/20 true with with WTA/N/D.

False statement. Rolf can soften up the ravens for somebody else to kill that Raven: 100% damage free.

True statement: Like anyone that 2HKOs can do that. Plus it's not as of the ravens hit that hard or many appear at one time, a long as a character isn't ORKOd, they don't care much about taking counters.

Um, what? It's the exact opposite if anything. Rolf has the entire game to get a forge. Lucia has two chapters. Remind me how this isn't a major advantage for Rolf?

The longer Rolf waits to get a forge, the worse his offense becomes. I can drudge up some stats on Iron Bow!Rolf, but suffice to say, Rolf's offense becomes even more pathetic. He goes from like 3RKOing to 6RKOing and other ridiculous horribleness.

By the time Lucia wants a forge, our team is generally better on offense. There are Killers/Braves/more eff weapons and such, and our team has much less issues ORKOing sans forges than back in Ch9.

"Always one of your worst unit" is a statement that can't POSSIBLY be more false. "enemy phase lol" does NOT automatically mean you're better than Rolf. Take somebody like Soren, who we don't want to expose to enemy phase anyway, basically meaning he might as well NOT have an enemy phase: Why the hell aren't we nagging Soren for having no enemy phase?

I showed how Ulki, a unit generally regarded as far below average, is about equal to Rolf. You haven't shown any reasoning whatsoever why Rolf can even be considered an average unit ever. Maybe this is a definitionn thing? I'm defining worse as "a worse choice than the other units available". Compared to his competition, things always go poorly for Rolf.

Soren's durability isn't actually so bad once he gets an Ike support. Also, when Soren gets attacked, it's better than when Rolf gets attacked at the very least. We can plan for Soren to take an attack or two on the enemy pahse and he's killed 2-3 enemies to Rolf's one. Soren is also a lower priority target than Rolf(enemies attack those who can't counter), so it's easier to keep him alive.

Why's this matter? Because, well, there's a ton of unit that have crappy offense: Let's use Volke as a random example.

Wow, Rolf is superior to a unit used for theiving utility. Honestly, if you're going to find a unit to compare Rolf to, compare him to a combat unit, because that's what Rolf is. I could go on for a long time about how Bastian is better than Sothe at combat, but Sothe is higher up due to theiving utility.

...Where are you getting 30% from? Her base crit is only 25, and that's BEFORE factoring enemy luck, AND she has to crit on the first attack, AND due to how crappy her offense is she might not even kill if she crits...

+9 crit from a forge and enemy luck is like 5 lol, so about 30. It's still something to consider, about 1/3 of the time Lucia won't be taking counters. She's almost always 3HKOing, except against Generals, and there will be times she will be attacking units that won't counter. There's also the Runesword possibility, which increases her durability in several ways.

@below A lot of this has to do with how many levels we're giving Rolf. I find 20/16 in Ch26 just absurdly overleveled for Rolf.

Edited July 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

The point is whether he can outweigh his negative utility that he amasses early on. He really doesn't, since he jumps to being like tied for the second worst unit post promotion as opposed to the worst.

Does he really? Your proof is astounding.

Here, lets check out Rolf against some other units at similar levels post promotion.

Rolf 20/1 (steel bow): 32 hp, 25 atk, 120 hit, 25 crit, 18 AS, 14 def, 9 res, 48 avo

Killer bow: 25 atk, 55 crit

Brave bow: 26 atk

Laguz bow: 36 eff atk

Brom 20/1 (steel lance): 40 hp, 29 atk, 105 hit, 9 crit, 12+ AS, 20 def, 8 res, 30+ avo

Devdan lv --/7 (steel lance): 38 hp, 26 atk, 119 hit, 8 crit, 14 + AS, 12 def, 11 res, 45 avo

Gatrie lv 20/1 (steel lance): 42 hp, 31 atk, 106 hit, 7 crit, 10+ AS, 21 def, 6 res, 28 avo

Tormod lv 15/1 (elfire): 28 hp, 22 atk, 114 hit, 17 crit, 15 AS, 8 def, 15 res, 41 avo

Tanith lv --/10 (steel lance): 32 hp, 26 atk, 124 hit, 9 crit, 24 AS, 15 def, 13 res, 66 avo

Janaff lv --/8 (beak): 39 hp, 26 atk, 166 hit, 10 crit, 20 AS, 15 def, 12 res, 56 avo

Demi-band: 39 hp, 23 atk, 162 hit, 9 crit, 19 AS, 13 def, 11 res, 54 avo

Mia lv 20/1 (steel blade): 32 hp, 25 atk, 123 hit, 24 crit, 22 AS, 12 def, 8 res, 56 avo

You cannot possibly tell me Rolf loses offence in every case. He beats all but 2 units in AS, beats everyone in crit and has the third highest accuracy. Who cares if Gatrie has a 6 atk lead on him? Hell basically never double, so Rolfs going to beat him on offence in virtually any scenario.

Rolf isnt even the least durable unit either. What does it matter if Tormod and Mia have enemy phases when their concrete durability is that bad? In Mias case, none of her supporters even give avo, and if she faces 100 hit + WTD, that amounts to 54 display hit, which is hardly reliable.

Of course, Rolf is obviously worse than all of these units because of his lack of enemy phase. If were in the mood to hype disadvantages to that extent, lets at least be fair to the disadvantages of other characters. Janaff cannot attack for half the chapter, or if he does, hell have the worst atk out of any unit I listed. That may not be worse than lack of 1 range, but its pretty close. Brom and Gatrie have such low movement that their enemy phase will hardly exist, and that will also hurt their exp gain, especially when you consider how little they double early on. How they can level up faster than Rolf without favoritism is beyond me.

A lot of this post has to deal more with Rolf vs. Elincia anyway, since the claim was made that Rolf is useful for more chapters than she is.

I never said that, at least.

If you d00ds want Elincia > Rolf, thats fine with me. She was supposed to move up in the last topic anyway. Maybe > Nasir?

I'm not really seeing a time where Rolf is very useful at all.

Rolf 20/15 (A Marcia, silver bow): 41 hp, 35 atk, 147 hit, 27 crit, 25 AS, 18 def, 12 res, 74 avo

He ORKOes 60% of chapter 26 enemies naturally. If we gave him a str band, we can increase that to 84%. The remaining 16% are the boss, generals and 2 SMs, and those are units even your top tiers will have trouble with.

Seriously, will you stop saying Rolf is useless his entire existence? This is probably the third time Ive given evidence to the contrary.

If Lucia gets RNG blessed, we can more easily expose her to enemy attacks since she'll be more durable.

You guys arent understanding what I meant by Lucia getting RNG blessed. I meant it in the context of enemies missing attacks on her, not her getting amazing level-ups.

Another note on Lucia's durability, she has like a 30% chance not to take a counter since she can crit, and obviously doesn't take counters when attacking archers and such either.

Rolf doesnt take counters against anything except archers, so hes at a huge advantage in that respect. His crit chance is roughly the same as Lucias for what its worth.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Vykan12

[dondon151]

Units hit 20/15 in this game? I wasn't aware of that.

Also, Rolf's level disadvantage never disappears completely, so those comparisons should be either something like 20/1 Rolf against 20/3-4 other units or 17/1 Rolf against 20/1 other units.

One can never argue "what if characters gets RNG blessed in combat" because there's no way to prepare for that or take advantage of it, like Vykan said. Additionally, I'd consider dying at low likelihoods to be far more severe than being lucky and not dying.

Edited July 30, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

I would argue that Mia is better than several units above her when they join

...What's that got to do with Mia not providing an equal return due to all the suckage she contributes?

You act as if it's impossible for Lucia to become a decent unit, it isn't. All she needs is a forge and a support beign fielded and she's already outclassing Rolf and most low tier units.

Hey guys, we have two forges in the whole game left.

Let's waste them Both on Lucia so she can suck less!

At support...lol, how many times do you need to be told this? She's not getting a support because anybody who doesn't suck is full, even if we PLAY Ilyana who's rather meh, she has Zihark and Gatrie and Mordecai and she can get them all WAY before Lucia joins.

We can BEXP Lucia just like we can BEXP Rolf, but I don't see anyone giving Lucia BEXP levels for a Ch25 comparison.

You can give Lucia all the BEXP in the world. It's not going to matter in the end because she just needs way too many levels to stop sucking.

Rolf's damage output without forges isn't very good, as I've shown repeatedly.

It's better than Lucia's, so I dunno what you're complaining about.

Lucia also can counter more often and has multiple ways to avoid taking counters.

Fewer ways to avoid taking counters than Rolf does. Archers aren't the only enemies on the map, you know.

Rolf is such an awesome unit when we give him lots of BEXP and Lucia gets nothing!

Why do you keep hailing under the assumption that Rolf is getting any more BEXP than the other guys on our team?

Stop assuming that Lucia isn't good with favoritism, there are a lot of resources we can put into her to make it better

I've said it once, I'll say it again? Lucia wants BEXP? Fine! Give her BEXP! Give her all the BEXP in the world for what I care! It won't make her suck any less at combat.

(just fielding Janaff make her very awesome defensively for example). Not to beat a dead horse, but Lucia faces pretty ridiculously low hit rates with any support, A Janaff gives her about 0/10/20 true with with WTA/N/D.

Fuck, you're not going to win this point: Lucia. Does. Not. Get. Supports. Let it die already.

True statement: Like anyone that 2HKOs can do that.

What? No, they can't do that. If two guys attack a raven at 1 range, one of them is going to get hit. Use Rolf and NEITHER of them get hit.

Plus it's not as of the ravens hit that hard or many appear at one time, a long as a character isn't ORKOd, they don't care much about taking counters.

It's not the ravens I'm worried about. Consider this scenario. Ike attacks a raven, Zihark finishes it...but other things like soldiers or archers or mages or I don't know will target the weakened Ike and potentially kill him.

The longer Rolf waits to get a forge, the worse his offense becomes. I can drudge up some stats on Iron Bow!Rolf, but suffice to say, Rolf's offense becomes even more pathetic. He goes from like 3RKOing to 6RKOing and other ridiculous horribleness.

This doesn't change the fact that Rolf has WAY more chapters to get a forge than Lucia does. How does Rolf's suckage change his forge availability, again? If someone else wants a forge than Rolf just sucks it up.

By the time Lucia wants a forge, our team is generally better on offense. There are Killers/Braves/more eff weapons and such, and our team has much less issues ORKOing sans forges than back in Ch9.

2x Dragon lv 12 (breath)

54 hp, 43 atk, 17 AS, 131 hit, 37 avo, 29 def, 24 res, 9 crit, 3 cev

2x Dragon lv 13 (breath)

54 hp, 45 atk, 19 AS, 133 hit, 41 avo, 30 def, 25 res, 10 crit, 3 cev

1x Dragon lv 16 (breath)

61 hp, 48 atk, 21 AS, 138 hit, 46 avo, 32 def, 27 res, 11 crit, 4 cev

...We're still going to want forges to deal with these guys.

I showed how Ulki, a unit generally regarded as far below average, is about equal to Rolf. You haven't shown any reasoning whatsoever why Rolf can even be considered an average unit ever.

Everybody here present knows that Ulki is "about equal" to Rolf, which is why they're in the same tier. And I've shown my reasoning countless times: Rolf stops being a detriment once he can actually kill things, which once promoted he has a MUCH easier time doing.

Soren's durability isn't actually so bad once he gets an Ike support.

Um, yes, it's still pretty horrid. 7, 15 AVO tops doesn't solve much when Soren isn't even that avo-tanky.

Also, when Soren gets attacked, it's better than when Rolf gets attacked at the very least.

Soren gets attacked by 3 guys on enemy phase.

Soren dies. Rolf doesn't die.

How is that better?

We can plan for Soren to take an attack or two on the enemy pahse

Easier said than done when he's getting 2-3 RKOd, isn't it?

Soren is also a lower priority target than Rolf(enemies attack those who can't counter), so it's easier to keep him alive.

If enemies see Soren lulling out in the open, they're going to attack him.

If enemies see Rolf lulling out in the open, they're going to attack him.

They're BOTH going to get targeted if exposed, unless you leave Soren AND Rolf open at the same time.

Wow, Rolf is superior to a unit used for theiving utility.

You missed the ENTIRE point of that analogy, didn't you? It wasn't to prove that Rolf>Volke in combat.

Honestly, if you're going to find a unit to compare Rolf to, compare him to a combat unit, because that's what Rolf is.

I didn't compare him to Volke to show that he's superior to Volke.

I compared him to Volke to prove a point: Having an enemy phase doesn't mean much when your offense and durability suck. And look, both of Lucia's do.

I could go on for a long time about how Bastian is better than Sothe at combat, but Sothe is high up due to theiving utility.

Yeah, except it's just as I said: I used Volke as a random example to prove a point. I needed somebody with bad offense and bad defense to illustrate my analogy: Volke met both parts of the criteria.

+9 crit from a forge

A MT forge is already questionable, NOW we're giving her a critforge?!

except against Generals, and there will be times she will be attacking units that won't counter.

4 enemies in C25 have bows.

6 enemies in C26 have bows.

5 enemies in C27 have bows.

This is such a rare occurance it's barely worth mentioning.

There's also the Runesword possibility, which increases her durability in several ways.

Runesword? You mean that thing that rapes her AS to hilarious levels? Yeah, not happening.

EDIT: Since Vykan bought up supports, I totally forgot those...Tack on B Rhys too since there's no real reason for that not to happen.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Vykan12]

Units hit 20/15 in this game? I wasn't aware of that.

This would be one of the few FEs where actually capping a unit's level can happen realistically without abuse. On my canto-only playthrough, I got all of my non-Astrid units to 17+ by the final, and that's also an exp heavy chapter.

[Dat Nick]

Wait, supports included, Rolf would actually ORKO most of what he doubles in C25...which means his win extends to more than just durability.

@Vykan: That might have had something to do with a small team size...

[dondon151]

Um, yes, it's still pretty horrid. 7, 15 AVO tops doesn't solve much when Soren isn't even that avo-tanky.

I disagree. You obviously didn't research your numbers before you spewed this out.

In chapter 17, enemy fighters, soldiers, armors, and knights have roughly 42-55 hit on unsupported 20/0 Soren. 15 avo from B Ike makes Soren likely to get hit 41.5 to 54 percent less often compared to no supports (35.70 to 59.95 true hit before supports to 14.85 to 32.4 true hit after supports).

[Dat Nick]

Considering he's still getting 2 shotted, those numbers are far bigger than I'd like them to be.

And Fighters, Soldiers, and Knights? Yes, just list the most inaccurate enemies in the game, why don't you? That doesn't even put a dent in archers/neutral mages/myrms/anything else that has hit

Edited July 30, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[dondon151]

Considering he's still getting 2 shotted, those numbers are far bigger than I'd like them to be.

It's a significant improvement, which you denied, and I showed otherwise.

And Fighters, Soldiers, and Knights? Yes, just list the most inaccurate enemies in the game, why don't you?

There are only two other enemy types in the game, lol, and those two other enemy types, myrmidons and archers, don't make up a majority of the enemies in chapter 17, so lol again.

[Narga_Rocks]

Units hit 20/15 in this game? I wasn't aware of that.

You can actually get a few to 20/20 if you take a group of ~9 or so. If you want I can load the game and see what my turncounts were, but aside from chapter 10 and 15 I think I did fine. Besides, it isn't like those two chapters were that long for cexp. 3 enemies in 10 and a boss in 15. My extra turns were for using max deployment in chapter 10 and having them all escape anyway (thought it would be fun to try), and getting all the items in chapter 15 without ever killing a laguz, and also only having about 4 of them attacking my units.

Heck, my transfer file to RD was off a hardmode run because I missed Marcia on my easy mode file (I have a fixed RD disc) and saved over my normal mode file and didn't want to play PoR through again just for transfers. I had a save in endgame, so the reason I had 8 20/20 units instead of 6 was because I used all the staves I'd stolen along the way to boost Elincia and Rhys up to 20/20 (and hammerneing the fortify twice, yeah I abused endgame for the transfer). The first time I beat it on HM I had 6 20/20 units at the end (no abusing endgame), and a few others around 20/12 to 20/16.

[Vykan12]

@Vykan: That might have had something to do with a small team size...

I used more units than I had slots.

Ike

Reyson

Titania

Oscar

Kieran

Makalov

Astrid

Geoffrey

Jill

Marcia

Haar

Tanith

Maybe my memory is too foggy, I can check unit records if required. I'm also curious what my turn count was, I at least know it was a lot lower than I originally expected it to be.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

Units hit 20/15 in this game? I wasn't aware of that.

Also, Rolf's level disadvantage never disappears completely, so those comparisons should be either something like 20/1 Rolf against 20/3-4 other units or 17/1 Rolf against 20/1 other units.

One can never argue "what if characters gets RNG blessed in combat" because there's no way to prepare for that or take advantage of it, like Vykan said. Additionally, I'd consider dying at low likelihoods to be far more severe than being lucky and not dying.

20/15 Rolf by Ch26 is pretty absurd. Let's say Rolf promotes by Ch19. That would mean Rolf gains 2 level a chapter to reach 20/15 by Ch26. This is pretty preposterous unless we feed him lot of BEXP, since Rolf is only killing ~7 units a chapter or thereabouts. Rolf can ORKO about half the time and 2RKO the other half, and there are sometimes where he won't be in enemy ranges. If we're doing an efficient runthrough, our turn counts are in the 8-10 range probably, and Rolf likely will not be killing a unit very tun. Even if he did kill one per turn, that does not equate to 2 levels a chapter post promotion.

@Norton

What are you talking about with two whole forges in the whole game left? You're making no sense whatsoever. We have 6 forges in the chapters that Lucia joins and she doesn't necessarily need two.

Your Soren/Rolf comparison assumes an imbecile, not a tier player We can obviously position it so Soren will only be in range of X number of enemies, we can't really expose Rolf to any enemies. A situation in which Soren attempts to solo the map is absurd.

We can forge Mt and crit on the same forge, not that big a deal considering how much gold we have. We got like 500,000 or whatever after Ch19.

You're overestimating Lucia's AS loss with the Runesword. --/16 Lucia only loses 2 AS from it, It's the same AS that 20/14 Rolf reaches for reference.

I don't know why we should just automatically dismiss Lucia's supports. Bastian I'll give you, but Ilyana is fairly reasonable. And again, fielding Janaff doesn't seem that huge of a detriment.

Let's say promoted Rolf isn't a detriment anymore. But Rolf is < Janaff. How is fielding Janaff a detriment?

I don't know, it just seems like there's a lot of double standards being tossed around here.

Edited July 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

What are you talking about with two whole forges in the whole game left? You're making no sense whatsoever. We have 6 forges in the chapters that Lucia joins and she doesn't necessarily need two.

Right, my bad...but being dependant on 20 use forges is NOT a good thing. Using them as an advantage is fine but...Lucia pretty much needs them to function.

Your Soren/Rolf comparison assumes an imbecile, not a tier player We can obviously position it so Soren will only be in range of X number of enemies, we can't really expose Rolf to any enemies. A situation in which Soren attempts to solo the map is absurd.

The thing is that Soren can rarely take more than two enemies: so exposing him is very rarely a good idea, hence the logic that he might as well not have an enemy phase.

ou're overestimating Lucia's AS loss with the Runesword. --/16 Lucia only loses 2 AS from it, It's the same AS that 20/14 Rolf reaches for reference.

16 Lucia?! Now who's overestimating levels?

but Ilyana is fairly reasonable.

No, it isn't, because many people give her bonuses she wants just as bad [full DEF] much earlier.

And again, fielding Janaff doesn't seem that huge of a detriment.

You're just digging yourself into a hole here: Janaff is awful. Does being in low tier not tell you anything?

Let's say promoted Rolf isn't a detriment anymore. But Rolf is < Janaff. How is fielding Janaff a detriment?

Janaff's 2RKOing stuff. And that's WHEN he's transformed.

Rolf can actually 1RKO a majority of things, and that's the whole time.

Rolf's negative utility is the casebreaker more than anything else.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Norton Sez What?