Swords are for Sisses - an FE6 HM Bow Run

[Crimson_Edge]

We've all heard it a thousand times. "Bows suck, Archers suck, don't use them, they don't have an Enemy Phase," blah blah. Beyond the fact that FE7 Rebecca has always been my favorite character to defend in FE debates, this mentality has always struck me as narrow-minded and rash. Yet it remains very common. Well, it's time to start proving it wrong. The goal of this log is to prove that Archers (and Bows) don't suck, so I'm going to be aiming for an efficiency (as related to turncount) run with the added requirements that Combat and Funds ranks must also be A-Ranked--so basically an S-Rank with the strictest possible Tactics Rank and no EXP/Power. This should prove the point about Bows sufficiently well, or at least take a step toward proving it.

I will only use units with access to Bows--this means only Klein, Igrene, Dorothy, Wolt, Sue, Shin, Dayan, Ward, Lot, and Bartre are going to be making the team as full-time units. This also means that I will have no healers on the team--instead, I'll be abusing Bow users' ability to avoid taking counterattacks and the additional attack range my team has to minimize damage taken. After Shin joins, I'll drop down to 1 healer, and after Klein joins, I'll drop down to 0. Elfin may or may not be added in as well, and situational filler healers such as Cecilia, Niime, or Yodel may make an appearance for their joining chapters, but they also might not, depending on how well these Bow units can handle reinforcements. I won't be posting stats of my units until later on, so I'll only list levels here. I haven't formatted them. My apologies. I'll get around to it eventually.

And now, the log:

Ch. 1 – 8 turns

Roy 1.50
Marcus 1.53
Lance 2.22
Alan 1.81
Wolt 3.00
Bors 1.10

As usual, I used Marcus for most of the dirty work and had other units finish for EXP. I tried to give Wolt as many kills as possible. Archers are annoying on this map, since I need the Combat Rank to be 40%, and Bows have Enemy Phase issues sometimes. Marcus is very useful for that purpose; I had him target the Archer first (the one at the top). Down at the bottom, I used Bors for the purpose of hitting the Archer; he was useful since he wouldn't have died from a Fighter + Brigand pair attack, unlike Alan/Lance. I also had him visit the village since he's sort of useless on the rest of the map.

I didn't have any crits, though I also didn't miss most relevant attacks. When the infantry were gone, I had Lance double the boss for 8 damage, then had Alan rescue Lance, Marcus move in to Iron Swordx2, and Wolt finish with an Iron Bow (1-HP kill!). Pretty good since he's the only unit I'm going to use out of these. I also built a few levels of Roy-Wolt support since Roy is forced to be fielded in this game. Overall, a satisfactory run, as is to be expected out of the first chapter.

MVP: Marcus

Ch. 2 – 9 turns

Dieck 6.65
Roy 1.50 
Marcus 1.76
Lot 4.37
Ward 3.25
Thany 1.00
Lance 2.74
Wolt 3.98
Bors 1.44
Ellen 2.44
Alan 2.69
Lance 2.74

The start went like normal. I was too lazy to give Marcus a Steel Axe, so I had Dieck Armorslayer Rude. Dieck missed once, then killed on the next turn. I had to use a vulnerary on Alan during this chapter because of low HP and wanting to keep that Mercenary on the right walled in (since it had managed to sneak onto a forest, the grummy ape). Other than that, nothing bad happened in this chapter. Again I focused kills (when the option was mine) on Wolt. Bors gained EXP because I gave him a random Soldier kill at the beginning, just because he was there and I wanted to minimize the damage taken. Merlinus got the Armorslayer, and Thany flew up to nab it from him. Merlinus also visited the shop and spent all my gold on weapons for future usage (like a Javelin for Ch. 3). Ward and Lot were pretty useful on the right-hand side; Lot used Hand Axe (since he has the higher Hit) and Ward stood on the Fort taking Enemy Phase attacks until the units on the left reached the rest of the party.

MVP: Dieck

Ch. 3 – 13 turns.

Lugh 1.00
Thany 1.00
Chad 1.46
Marcus 2.41
Alan 4.73
Lance 3.10
Bors 1.65
Ellen 3.65
Ward 3.79
Lot 6.30
Roy 1.80
Wolt 4.99
Dieck 8.50

Had Merlinus trade Marcus a Javelin on turn 1. Marcus traveled up to recruit Lugh (and bring him back via Rescue), Lot and Ward took on a bunch of Soldiers with Alan/Lance/Wolt/Dieck support, and Chad rescued Ellen, letting her heal Alan. Dieck had enough Spd to double and one-round Cavs with an Iron Blade, so that made the middle portion of this chapter much easier. I realized that I had been keeping Chad back a bit, so couldn’t open the chests fast enough. I used Thany to rescue him (after she visited the village for that Mend staff) and had Marcus waste a couple of Silver Lance uses to take out the Knights (I could have used Armorslayer but I used Dieck with Armorslayer to one-round Slater instead, so I could seize with Roy). Roy x Walt C was achieved this chapter. Dieck was definitely MVP, but Marcus did awesomely too. Lot doubling Soldiers was pretty useful in this chapter. I realized that Marcus’ weapon levels rise really quickly, and thus he can use Killing Edge in time for some massive boss action later if I opt not to use Rutger.

MVP: Dieck

Chapter 4 – 10 turns.

Chad 3.16
Bors 2.90
Lugh 2.17
Lot 6.87
Ward 4.32
Marcus 2.37
Ellen 4.42
Wolt 6.83
Alan 5.62
Lance 3.51
Roy 2.35
Rutger 4.45
Dieck 9.12
Thany 1.33

I activated Lot x Ward C at the beginning, had Chad trade Lot a Halberd, and got ready to rumble. Once again I used Marcus’ Silver Lance, which, added on to Lugh's guaranteed damage and Alan/Lance's Rescue capabilities, allowed me to kill the second Nomad on the map before it reached my team. I used Halberd with Lot to hit (since he has more Hit than Ward). Had Roy in range of Clarine on turn 4. There was a Cavalier at 1 HP damage and Chad managed to kill it by doing 1 damage. That was kind of amusing. Also amusing was Bors leveling up and gaining Spd on the 4th turn. Had Merlinus visit the village to get the Door Key. I had to kind of keep my units back to avoid getting killed by Rutger's KE on his first turn spawning (since reinforcements move first). I had Marcus visit the bottom village and Thany visit the top (Thany got a kill on an Archer too, doubling it with Slim Lance). For Erik, I saw that he had 12 Spd, so base Rutger could double--I just used KE with Rutger, had Thany move in to take Rutger's KE, Rescued Rutger with Alan, moved in Dieck, nabbed the KE from Thany, and left Erik at 1 HP, just enough for Wolt to finish again (or Lugh if Wolt had missed, which he didn't). Chad got some levels off the pirates too. Pretty sweet.

MVP: Marcus

Edited April 23, 2010 by Crimson_Edge

[-Cynthia-]

Is this HM? Also, I'm not sure if an all Bows runthrough actually proves much, as tier lists really compare units when used as part of a "normal team". It's possible to restrict yourself in a lot of ways and still beat the game, I think a runthrough where you used several bow users on a normal team and they were effective would show more.

[Florete]

We've all heard it a thousand times. "Bows suck, Archers suck, don't use them, they don't have an Enemy Phase," blah blah. Beyond the fact that FE7 Rebecca has always been my favorite character to defend in FE debates, this mentality has always struck me as narrow-minded and rash. Yet it remains very common.

It does? I thought we'd mostly gotten out of the mentality that Archers suck just for their lack of an enemy phase most of the time.

[Colonel M]

I think he's talking about Dorothy and Walt in particular. Still, this playthrough should be very interesting nevertheless.

I shall be reading this very closely.

[Crimson_Edge]

Is this HM? Also, I'm not sure if an all Bows runthrough actually proves much, as tier lists really compare units when used as part of a "normal team". It's possible to restrict yourself in a lot of ways and still beat the game, I think a runthrough where you used several bow users on a normal team and they were effective would show more.

It says "HM" in the topic title.

And actually, an all-Bow team proves more than a team of normal units + Bows, precisely because the more Bow users you use, the less the advantages of being a Bow unit are (competition for resources goes up, there is more than one unit now available to counter accurately at range, etc.) and the greater the disdavantages of a Bow unit are--for example, without normal units to wall you in, how are you going to avoid hurting the Combat Rank on Enemy Phase? You'd need to be more creative. Besides, you'll notice that some of these units do qualify as "normal"--Bartre, Ward, Lot, Shin, Sue, and Dayan (over half the team) have weapons other than Bows. So this experiment is more valid than one in which a handful of Bow users make it onto an all-star team.

If a team of all Bow users can S-Rank the game (minus Power/EXP), and even do well on an efficiency run (since this playthrough attempts to be both at once), then there cannot be any objective reasons to discredit a Bow user on account of the unit's wielding a Bow.

[dondon151]

Are you allowed to use secondary weapons? That sort of defeats the purpose of "all bows."

I don't think you're going to show anything that we (or at least I) don't already know. Bows in this game have been getting a much better reputation, and I think that's evident from people using Klein and Shin in their playthroughs.

[Crimson_Edge]

Secondary weapons would of course be used sparingly--for example, Killer Axe Ward in Ch. 21 to attack the reinforcements that Shin/Sue/Dayan can't reach. It's little different from using a Light Brand on an all-Sword playthrough, though I'll admit if I used too much it would defeat the purpose of the experiment.

I'm well aware that some people already realize that Bows are viable, but the "auto-suck" status for Bows is still very common in debating circles, from what I can see on GFAQs/FEFF/etc.

Plus, at the very least, it's a convenient excuse to do something new. Everyone knows Alan/Lance can duo this game--but can a team of primary Bow users S-Rank the game without healer backup?

[dondon151]

Well... no one here cares about S-ranking the game either, but since I'm assuming you're posting this cross forums, it's probably best that you did. I would still try to go for lowest turncount possible past a certain point in the game, since S-ranking doesn't say much when 2 of the ranks are literally impossible and 2 of the other ranks are trivial.

(A core of 10 units doesn't really cost much. Especially when only 4 of them require promotions.)

Edited April 23, 2010 by dondon151

[Life]

I'm well aware that some people already realize that Bows are viable, but the "auto-suck" status for Bows is still very common in debating circles, from what I can see on GFAQs/FEFF/etc.

Don't accuse me of this. I used Louise extensively in my ENM run and promoted Wil in my HNM. I'm also going to try to promote Rebecca if I can find slots for her to join the party in the coming chapters for EHM.

The problem is that ~30% action that primary archers see. If the crossbow existed in FE6 and 7, I'd be calling for Rebecca to Upper Mid in a heartbeat, maybe even higher. But it doesn't.

Anyways, good luck!

[Narga_Rocks]

Well... no one here cares about S-ranking the game either, but since I'm assuming you're posting this cross forums, it's probably best that you did. I would still try to go for lowest turncount possible past a certain point in the game, since S-ranking doesn't say much when 2 of the ranks are literally impossible and 2 of the other ranks are trivial.

(A core of 10 units doesn't really cost much. Especially when only 4 of them require promotions.)

I find the funds rank a little ridiculous, actually. I A ranked it without even trying. I mean, you could say I was trying to not A rank it. I sold stuff to buy angelic robes in chapter 16 and boots in chapter 21 (and a wing and energy ring or something). I even tended to use killers and silvers more than I needed to. And yet I still A ranked Funds. I almost feel like a failure for not buying and using enough stat boosters to hit B rank.

[A Whaler on the Moon]

Although the lact of 1-range (and in extension, enemy phase) doesn't make bow users auto-suck, it certainly is a disadvantage. If the bow users have amazing player phase they can still be awesome, like FE10 Shinon. In games like FE6 in which the difficulty isn't piss-easy bow users can be useful if they are decent, but in games like FE8 where you can 1RKO basically everything except maybe a few armours and swordmasters bow users are simply horrible for the fact that 95% of the action there is enemy phase.

[CT075]

If I may suggest something, once you get Dorothy you can always do this for the sake of "because I can." This is probably the only way to actually beat the game without ever touching a non-bow weapon beyond the first few chapters.

OOOO
ODWO
OOOO

O = Either an empty space or an enemy, doesn't matter.

D = Dorothy

W = Wolt

Of course, it works with any archers. With this formation (and a little luck) you can probably get around without using 1-range weapons because any enemy that could 1-range you would be in range of the other archer.

Just something random I had to say. Good luck~

[Jaffar's Apprentice]

Rath, Rebecca, Sue, Neimi, and Klien are all favored units by me in FE6-8. I have no problem with bow units, they are useful. This seems like an interesting playthrough, I shall pay attention to it.

[HongLei]

I don't have a problem with bows after Lyn promotes I prefer using bows with her and rath is awesome and shinon is a walking death machine in fe10 with double bow 1~3 range :)

[Parrhesia]

I'm kinda a psychopath when it comes to archery, but I ain't gonna train Wil, or Rebecca, or Wolt, or Rath, or Sue, or Dorothy (for multiple reasons), or Rolf, or FE10 Rolf, or FE9 Shinon, or Gordin, or Tomas, or Norne, or Leonardo, or Neimi. Geitz would probably be easily my favourite archer, if I was ever able to train my lords to >50. Without him, it's Innes.

Anyway, I assume this playthrough died, but...if it didn't, good luck. But I doubt this is going to make a difference in any stigma which may or may not actually exist.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Yossarian