Psych Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Thief in Manster only needs like, 2 door keys for 4 for Leaf and the exit door. You can capture some keys in 4x, and 5 the door opens if Evayl dies. 6 opens if you step in front of it, though you have to go through the swarm of enemies. 8x I'd rather just say tough luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 Frankly, I inherently dislike the notion of free units in drafting tourneys. Giving Vanessa to everybody does a LOT more than even the field, it shifts the balance such that Round One Draft is now ALWAYS Kyle. There's always gonna be a clear-cut best or set of best (except maybe in fe4), so why shake up the balance? FE7 and 9 are certainly not plagued by the phenomenon that is FE10!Haar (I don't think even fe9!Marcia saves what he does) and even Vanessa, while she does do a whole hell of a lot in the early game, can still throw you into a precarious position when you land on Chapter 9. So consider me essentially against all "free unit" arguments. Titania is a necessary evil because otherwise FE9 drafting would be a lot more penalties and a lot less fun. Apply this logic to FE6/7/10/11 as you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 So consider me essentially against all "free unit" arguments. Titania is a necessary evil because otherwise FE9 drafting would be a lot more penalties and a lot less fun. Apply this logic to FE6/7/10/11 as you will. If you wanted to change the free units, for FE9, maybe a combination of either Oscar, Boyd, Shinon and Gatrie could work. Alternatively, Titania could only be free for the first couple of chapters or something (FE7!Marcus is used that way, right?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 Marcus is free for the whole ride in FE7. The NM drafts, only, have him limited. In fact, the only draft I've seen where the local Jeigan is earlygame-only is FE7 NM. Titania past earlygame isn't gamebreaking at all - she actually falls off nicely. For the earlygame, there's nothing that I can readily see that wouldn't change drafts in some arbitrary way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Father, I have returned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) Titania past earlygame isn't gamebreaking at all - she actually falls off nicely. For the earlygame, there's nothing that I can readily see that wouldn't change drafts in some arbitrary way. Titania beats Jill in every growth except for Magic and Marcia in every growth but Speed. How, exactly, does she fall off? Edited February 9, 2011 by Paperblade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Titania beats Jill in every growth except for Magic and Marcia in every growth but Speed. How, exactly, does she fall off? It helps that you can have Marcia promoted by chapter 11. Level 10 Titania still beats Marcia in most stats though. Marcia will level faster than Titania at that point. But yeah, Titania will be beating nearly everyone, and the only reason that Marcia/Jill are better than her at any point before like 20/15 or something is because they fly. For every other unit...not doing so well. Like, 20/1 Oscar only wins def over level 10 Titania, and that is only barely. Still, Titania "falls off" from Jill and Marcia. Again, that's only due to flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 In my opinion, FE 9 drafts are unbalanced not because of Titania (BEXP can turn practically anyone into a ORKOing machine), but because it basically boils down to whoever got Marcia vs. whoever got Jill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yes, I thought the same. :( It's unfair advantage over everyone else. Hence why I barely feel motivated to even finish now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Just because you may not win doesn't mean you can't finish anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 In my opinion, FE 9 drafts are unbalanced not because of Titania (BEXP can turn practically anyone into a ORKOing machine), but because it basically boils down to whoever got Marcia vs. whoever got Jill. This stems from the problem of the ruleset causing the other top tier units to not matter because they are either free for everyone (Titania) or are made redundant but the existence of the free unit (Oscar), which means that you can safely disregard early game picks and pick a mid game god. FE7 has the same problem in that you only need one of the dozen or so early game units due to the existence of Marcus and by the time having more units is useful you already have over half the cast available, and Marcus, like Titania, remains the best combat unit for a long time due to his powerful stats and high move, meaning only high utility units are more useful overall. FE8 is probably the best choice for making Seth free for a time since the broken units are available soonest, yet it's the one game where the god unit is completely banned! The fact that unit choices are naturally uneven hurts badly, because you can't really make up for first/second pick getting bomb city Marcia or whatever. FE7 isn't as bad because there's no stand out "Oh they got X better give up" since units either have a bad early game (Pent doesn't exist, Florina is weaksauce) or a bad late game (Lowen and Dorcas have shit growths). This is why I stand by that FE10 is the best game to draft, as high availability units only exist in about half the chapter, and the highest availability unit (Ilyana) has piss Move and mediocre growths so she's not super sweet awesomeness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaponsofMassConstruction Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Frankly, I inherently dislike the notion of free units in drafting tourneys. Giving Vanessa to everybody does a LOT more than even the field, it shifts the balance such that Round One Draft is now ALWAYS Kyle. There's always gonna be a clear-cut best or set of best (except maybe in fe4), so why shake up the balance? FE7 and 9 are certainly not plagued by the phenomenon that is FE10!Haar (I don't think even fe9!Marcia saves what he does) and even Vanessa, while she does do a whole hell of a lot in the early game, can still throw you into a precarious position when you land on Chapter 9. So consider me essentially against all "free unit" arguments. Titania is a necessary evil because otherwise FE9 drafting would be a lot more penalties and a lot less fun. Apply this logic to FE6/7/10/11 as you will. The problem with the current balance under free Jeigans is that the point of early to mid game is severely reduced because the Jeigan simply dominates so much that the fastest strategies are independent of picks for most players. In the current SOYO draft I'm in for FE7, despite the fact that this was supposed to inherently give me worse conditions than a regular, I have easily been able to keep pace solely because of Marcus to the point where I'm considering dropping a few of my later picks just because they might only slow me down. This sort of thing should not be able to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) The problem with the current balance under free Jeigans is that the point of early to mid game is severely reduced because the Jeigan simply dominates so much that the fastest strategies are independent of picks for most players. In the current SOYO draft I'm in for FE7, despite the fact that this was supposed to inherently give me worse conditions than a regular, I have easily been able to keep pace solely because of Marcus to the point where I'm considering dropping a few of my later picks just because they might only slow me down. This sort of thing should not be able to happen. This is true, and I did pull modestly competitive turncounts in RD Part 1 with, effectively, only Sothe and his healbot. I don't, however, think that the answer is in giving us other different free units. What's the answer, then? I don't know. Incidentally, is the mentioned FE7 draft NM or HM? Curious on that point. EDIT: And if NM, how does Marcus perform game-long in HM? Edited February 9, 2011 by Integrity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaponsofMassConstruction Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 This is true, and I did pull modestly competitive turncounts in RD Part 1 with, effectively, only Sothe and his healbot. I don't, however, think that the answer is in giving us other different free units. What's the answer, then? I don't know. Incidentally, is the mentioned FE7 draft NM or HM? Curious on that point. EDIT: And if NM, how does Marcus perform game-long in HM? At this point, a different free unit would be a better option than the current system. Whether there is a better solution I don't know, but this would add flexibility to drafting playthroughs. It's HM. And do you mean HM or NM in both places for the second question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 This is true, and I did pull modestly competitive turncounts in RD Part 1 with, effectively, only Sothe and his healbot. I don't, however, think that the answer is in giving us other different free units. What's the answer, then? I don't know. Incidentally, is the mentioned FE7 draft NM or HM? Curious on that point. EDIT: And if NM, how does Marcus perform game-long in HM? Just only permit the use of the Jeigan up to a certain point in the game. For example, when they're no longer forced deployment. So Marcus would only be permitted until Chapter 15, where you can choose not to deploy him. It also discourages having Marcus solo everything, because it can leave the rest of your team very weak and unable to deal with anything once he leaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 The second question was merely a "if you're talking about NM, does the same hold true for HM?". I'll think more on it before I spout something half-cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nflchamp Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 This is true, and I did pull modestly competitive turncounts in RD Part 1 with, effectively, only Sothe and his healbot. I don't, however, think that the answer is in giving us other different free units. What's the answer, then? I don't know. No offense, Integrity, but 124 turns in Part 1 of a RD draft isn't "modestly competitive." It's pretty much the equivalent of losing the draft right then and there. RD, I feel, has the opposite problem of other drafts insofar as Part 1 is the most important part. The other parts will play out generally the same no matter who you draft; penalties seem to be the biggest issue in part 2, part 3 you have Ike, and any competently drafted team will be able to handle part 4 in roughly the same amount of turns. The turn count differences simply aren't that different to have huge impact. For example, in the draft Integrity referenced I beat Integrity's part 1 turn count by 23 turns. At the end of the game I was ahead 32 turns. Moreover, Soul beat me by 26 turns in part 1 and finish 22 turns ahead of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Incidentally, is the mentioned FE7 draft NM or HM? Curious on that point. EDIT: And if NM, how does Marcus perform game-long in HM? In the SOYO draft my Marcus basically soloed New Resolve in 3 turns, only bothering to drop Hector in range of the Elysian Whip village (which was only necessary because I had 2 Pegasus Knights), while the rest of my team basically picked off guys from behind for EXP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) No offense, Integrity, but 124 turns in Part 1 of a RD draft isn't "modestly competitive." It's pretty much the equivalent of losing the draft right then and there. RD, I feel, has the opposite problem of other drafts insofar as Part 1 is the most important part. The other parts will play out generally the same no matter who you draft; penalties seem to be the biggest issue in part 2, part 3 you have Ike, and any competently drafted team will be able to handle part 4 in roughly the same amount of turns. The turn count differences simply aren't that different to have huge impact. For example, in the draft Integrity referenced I beat Integrity's part 1 turn count by 23 turns. At the end of the game I was ahead 32 turns. Moreover, Soul beat me by 26 turns in part 1 and finish 22 turns ahead of me. I suppose I meant as compared to my own counts with a real team, not compared to that overall. Additionally, 1-E alone was responsible for roughly half of those turns I lost in that draft since I really haven't a clue how to handle it well, but it's irrelevant. Edited February 9, 2011 by Integrity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 So I dwelt on this overnight, since I tend to when presented with a problem, and I realized my experience with the offending games is rather limited. As I see it: FE6: Did once, Marcus was dropped early. I misremembered this one in particular because I had drafted Zealot, who shows up shortly after Marcus is dropped. FE7: Did once, Marcus was dropped early. FE8: Seth's almost always (goddammit, darros) banned. FE9: Did once, had Kieran to make Titania look smaller than she is. FE10: rofl, p1 without Sothe. FE11: Jeigan himself keeps a fairly pleasant level of usefulness, sinking into underpowered, in HM drafts. I realize I've never done a NM draft. What's the purpose of this post? I come to realize I don't honestly have much experience with the particularly offending games here. And now, I'm revising my stance after looking back on my previous drafts. I'm more open to the prospect of free units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Integ, SD drafts VIII and IX, + my 164 turns for SD VII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Cheers, boss. Edited #8 in but I'm gonna hold off putting 9 in until the drafting's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Dragon Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I suppose I should mention that I've finished <<<FE 9 Draft Tourney>>> in 147 turns. Also, Garlyle finished with 209 turns in FE 9 Hard Mode draft: Round 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Jagen is eternally useful, thanks to reclassing. I'd say keep him free, due to the class A/B male divide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Jagen is eternally useful, thanks to reclassing. I'd say keep him free, due to the class A/B male divide. That was rather my point. Jags is eternally *useful* but not a gamebreaker past chapter 4 or so. I suppose I should mention that I've finished <<<FE 9 Draft Tourney>>> in 147 turns. Also, Garlyle finished with 209 turns in FE 9 Hard Mode draft: Round 3. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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